I think you mean WW IV. I was told by MSM that Trump was for certain starting WW III.
World War III just started
- Thread starter ptree06
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Do you listen to the word salad that comes out of their mouths. Might be an unnecessary comment, but he's correct. They're a complete embarrassment.
That's your assumption that Putin would have attacked "regardless of our President". Usually, when a move like this is made, it's done because the aggressor doesn't feel that there is anyone with the strength & resolve to stop him.
You can try to spin it any way you want, but the reality is that Biden is perceived as weak around the world, especially after the debacle in Afghanistan. When tyrants feel their opposition is weak, they start expanding their territory. Putin took Crimea, because he thought Obama was all talk and no action and he was apparently right.
Putin didn't annex any territory, during the Trump years, because he wasn't sure what the Orange Man was capable of doing. Whether he thought Trump was strong or batshit crazy didn't matter. He didn't sense weakness, so he waited until he got Cornpop 2.0 and all he's seen so far is talk.
I mean considering how Americans reacted last August when we pulled out of Afghanistan ... its not hard for me to imagine that the blame isn't with the President but with its citizens.
Biden made the right call to follow through and get out of Afghanistan (in which the terms were agreed upon by his predecessor) and the country lost its collective shit.
Can you imagine if Biden were to commit more resources and lives to another conflict now?
I'd say it was our country's reaction to last August that empowered Putin more than anything any politician has done.
Now all of that is giving credence that Putin actually gives a shit what America thinks. Which I don't think he does quite frankly, and he has much less reason to when he knows Americans have no appetite for any conflict.
No President is putting American troops in Ukraine. That's the whole reason that NATO exists and Ukraine isn't in it.
That was my intention initially, but ptree is like a festering sore, I felt the need to lance it one time and pour a little reality antiseptic on it and rid us of this ptree.
Let's hope this distraction is swiftly moved to the GD board.
It was not that we withdrew troops, it was the haphazard way in which it was done, that made people lose their sh1t. Example, Why was it done in the middle of fighting season and not in winter? It was poorly thought through, period.
Biden should immediately reverse his EO on the Keystone Pipeline and make other moves to drive down the price of oil and natural gas. Russia relies on and benefits from high oil and natural gas.
The US imports 600,000 barrel/day from Russia
The US imports 600,000 barrel/day from Russia
What amazing powers of rationalization. WOW! The country wasn't upset that we pulled out of Afghanistan. We were pissed, because of how badly the withdrawal was botched. Biden's only concern was getting the troops out, before the 20th Anniversary of our entrance to that war, so he would have a political football to spike on the Anniversary.
He wasn't the least bit concerned about anything but the deadline for political reasons and 13 American lives were needlessly lost and possibly hundreds or thousands of other allies have died since then. We also left over 80 Billion dollars worth of military equipment behind, which I would much rather have given to Ukraine.
The fault was Biden's, not the citizens'. That level of spinning requires complete detachment from reality.
Because Biden's predecessor agreed to withdraw by the end of May. Biden had already run out of time and the Taliban had set a hard deadline of August or the cease-fire agreement would expire and we'd be back in conflict again.
If you wanted to get out in winter then Trump should have done it in the winter of 2020 or Trump should have negotiated that when his administration came to terms (aka surrender) with the Taliban at Camp David.
Anyone who thinks the withdrawal debacle was a) a debacle or b) was Biden's fault likely doesn't understand much about Afghanistan, the Taliban, and how it all came about in the preceding 18 months.
But again none of that actually matters in this regard. What matters is that American's lost their collective shit and communicated to the world that we had no more appetite for armed conflict or risking the life of serviceman for wars overseas.
Like i said earlier, could you imagine if Biden committed US forces in to Ukraine for this? Hell Trump withheld arms to Ukraine until Ukraine agreed to fabricate/hand-over dirt on Biden.... That also weakened Ukraine and made Putin realize that we weren't really that serious about protecting Ukraine.
Lol. You think the 20th anniversary was the factor? Like I said you know little about what the actual terms were for the withdrawal.
American lives? Exactly my point. If we had stayed we would have likely lost a lot more. We'd already lost thousands. And you don't thnk we'd lose more than 13 in a war with Russia? Lol.
Putin knows we had no appetite for conflict. He isn't wrong.
This country has no appetite for it. We're too busy tearing each other apart to be able to take on an enemy the size of Russia or China.
Just 18 months ago the US was energy independent and exporting excess oil and gas. Buying < 100K barrels from Russia and about to go to ZERO when contracts expired with no renewal planned by the Trump administration. Fast Forward: US sitting on 250 years of KNOWN gas reserves and 200 years worth of KNOWN oil reserves and everyone paying out the nose at the pump and utilities....what incompetence!!!
Biden should have put crippling economic sanctions on Russia, when they started massing troops on the Ukrainian border and their intentions became apparent. Then tell Putin that the sanctions would be lifted, as the troops are withdrawn. The problem could have been solved with out any military involvement. Unfortunately, Biden dropped that ball and is fumbling around for a solution to a problem that should never have existed.
Climate change is the biggest threat. Not China. Not Russia. Didn't you get the memo?
Prayers to all those impacted.
Umm dude we still are energy independent. And we still don't import much from Russia or the Ukraine.
That's not why energy prices have spiked at home.
It's because other countries have a reliance on Ukrainian and Russian resources and without access to them they will need to buy the limited resources from someone else. This drives up demand and thus increases the costs for everyone.
US energy companies are GLOBAL companies and thus are impacted by global demand for those US resources.
No reason for a global company to sell in the US for cheaper when they can ship those resources overseas for a premium.
Your issue is with global economics. Unlike in Russia the US energy reserves are not government-owned.
My closest HS friend is married to a Ukrainian woman. Her two adult children and grandson live just outside Kyiv. Last she heard early yesterday morning they were trying to head west toward Lviv.
He and I have been messaging this afternoon (CET) and she hasn't heard from them in over 24 hours. If Ukrainian refugees need to leave the country I have offered our home here in Switzerland as refuge for her family. Switzerland typically takes a limited number of refugees when this crap happens.
Just stop and let the adults discuss this.
I've got a customer in Wisconsin that's a Ukie and we were going to the game next Tuesday. That probably aint happenin' for him. I've offered safe passage for his peeps here in VA. It's a sad deal all the way around.
I would have been fine with sanctions right away but two things: one, we might have been the only country to do that when we need to be aligned with our allies. Two, the rest of your statements about how sanctions earlier would have ended it before it began is pure conjecture on your part. You have no idea. We aren’t dealing with a rational person in Putin here.
No. The terms of the agreement were already violated and no pull out should have occurred. This happened under Trump and the agreement came off the table. We have historic records to this fact. Read the F’ing agreement it’s like 2 pages. We also withdrew and surrendered the strategic air base and pulled our most of our troops and left “security” and “vetting” to the base to the Taliban and withdrew out of a urban airport with no strategic position.
Not to mention our allies were livid with the lack of warning and shit show we created.
I think we can all be adults and not click on the “world war 3” thread if it’s something that’s not of your interest
..... The agreement was never off the table or renegotiated. In fact former President Trump even aluded to this fact in a statement on June 26, 2021. During the middle of the final withdrawal.
June 26, 2021 — At a rally in Ohio, his first since leaving office, Trump boasts that Biden can’t stop the process he started to remove troops from Afghanistan, and acknowledges the Afghan government won’t last once U.S. troops leave.
“I started the process,” Trump says. “All the troops are coming back home. They [the Biden administration] couldn’t stop the process. 21 years is enough. Don’t we think? 21 years. They couldn’t stop the process. They wanted to, but it was very tough to stop the process when other things… It’s a shame. 21 years, by a government that wouldn’t last. The only way they last is if we’re there. What are we going to say? We’ll stay for another 21 years, then we’ll stay for another 50. The whole thing is ridiculous. … We’re bringing troops back home from Afghanistan.”
So yeah, even Trump through the summer of 2021 was still boasting about his deal with the Taliban, and how Biden couldn't stop it. He wanted all the credit, but then .... not surprisingly wanted to quickly erase that history 6 weeks later after Americans lost their shit because we were not given a hero's send-off in August.
Also, just a reminder that by January 15, 2021 we only had 2,500 remaining troops left in Afghanistan. That wasn't going to be enough to do much of anything from a strategic perspective. So if the US wanted strategic goals accomplished (eg retaining bases, withdrawing equipment, etc) it should have done that prior to this point)
Jan. 15, 2021 — “Today, U.S. force levels in Afghanistan have reached 2,500,” Miller, the acting defense secretary, says in a statement. “[T]his drawdown brings U.S. forces in the country to their lowest levels since 2001.”
After January 15th, 2021, the US at that point was extremely reliant on the 300,000 Aghan security force -- which rolled over in the early summer of 2021. It's that last fact that made the withdrawal chaotic. But the US was too far committed to the withdrawal at that point. Americans (including the Biden administration) were never going to support a troop level increase in 2021.
The only way out was to see the withdrawal through to the end.
Remember the days when people weren’t constantly looking for an angle to have a political fight. You posted this thread so you could make statements like this…looking for that fight. Congrats.
Distant memory.
JUST STOP! It was a problem of Biden's creation, so quit blaming Trump or the American citizens for Biden's failure.
If Biden wanted the troops out in May, he could have had the troops out in May. He wasn't the one planning the withdrawal, DoD was doing that and they were aware of Trump's timetable.
Biden saw a political opportunity to announce the withdrawal of our troops from our longest war on the 20th Anniversary of our entrance, which was October 7th. He wanted a Spike the Football moment on National TV as close to the Anniversary as possible to make himself appear heroic.
The fact that NO ONE was held accountable for that botched operation is just another testament to the incompetence in this Administration.
We need NO American troops in Ukraine. That would be stupid.
They will be doing them now. I wonder if it will work as you think it is.
I never said it wasn't a global issue. I think your partially correct and also partially incorrect. Yes, the US doesn't import much from Russia but its 500K bbls but it's up 500% . Energy independence, to me, means we are not required to import energy from anyone and the US can control our own pricing..this was happening 18 months ago and costs globally, were far less for everyone. In the US much of the known reserves ARE govt owned and exploration and leases ARE govt controlled. These leases and exploration/drilling rights are not being renewed along with govt control of pipelines creates a shortage in supply. 18 months ago the US was flooding the market with oil and gas and supply was greater than demand, bring down price globally.Not the case now You are also correct on Europe. They made a poor choice, depending on Russia/Ukraine for energy and now everyone will pay the price. We can partially solve this by opening up our own spigots again by increasing supply , thus driving prices back down, But that would mean repoening pipelines etc, putting thousands back to work and crushing Russia's income...but that is not how this adim rolls.
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So what other Countries are we now exporting oil and NG to in quantities pre Biden?
Yea, blame the American people for being upset that their commander in chief had no plan whatsoever to exit Afghanistan without allowing billions of dollars worth of American made military equipment to fall into the Taliban hands while leaving thousands of Americans and her allies stranded behind enemy lines. Add to all of that, the disaster at the airport that went on for weeks.
How dare we criticize POTUS for that.
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