Turnovers

[New Pal Boiler]

It's pretty simple: butler turned it over 10 less times than we did, and therefore took 10 more shots. Take better care of the ball, you win the game.

How do we fix that? Don't know. That's why painter makes the big bucks.

 

[BBG]

It's pretty simple: butler turned it over 10 less times than we did, and therefore took 10 more shots. Take better care of the ball, you win the game.

How do we fix that? Don't know. That's why painter makes the big bucks.

Simple. Play with the mindset of the near comeback and this takes care of itself IMO.

On to Vandy..

 

[lbodel]

It's pretty simple: butler turned it over 10 less times than we did, and therefore took 10 more shots. Take better care of the ball, you win the game.

How do we fix that? Don't know. That's why painter makes the big bucks.

Last year we had this same situation - turnovers a big problem. It got better as time went on. There are some obvious reasons for this - more experience, the team plays more together, players learn what they can and can't do, etc.

Some of our biggest "culprits" last year were Hammons/Haas. By the end of the season, they were doing a much better job taking care of the ball. This year, Hammons/Haas are doing ok with turnovers. Swanigan had 7 turnovers on his own yesterday. Take those out yesterday and we had a "respectable" 11 turnovers. Hill had 3 turnovers yesterday and it certainly was not his best game, but again - what is the common factor of these 2 guys? They are both new players at Purdue and their experience with high-level college basketball is limited (obviously Swanigan as a true freshman - and Hill having played at lower level conference programs).

So we have a big guy like Swanigan struggling with turnovers like Hammons/Haas did early in their careers too. It makes sense, it's tough to transition to college basketball as a big guy. I referred to Swanigan as we lived and died by his play yesterday. He had a great scoring/rebounding game, but those turnovers just killed us (he had 7 turnovers, Butler as a team had 8). So that's a tough situation to handle - you don't want to bench him knowing what he can provide, but he also needs to be less reckless with the ball.

I think part of this is that Hammons was on the bench with foul trouble. We wanted to keep the focus on getting inside, and we did that. But instead of rely on a guy like Hammons, you saw Swanigan get more touches. Butler had the same tactic for Swanigan as they did for Hammons, but obviously you're talking 2 very different players. Butler swarming Swanigan flustered him and it makes sense. If you have Swanigan and Hammons in there, there's no swarming to be done.

This team will live and die on the production of Hammons and on a secondary role Haas. These guys free up our other players, who have some developing to do. We have a frontline that people cannot stop if we are playing efficiently. And this frontline opens up our other players to do things. It's almost the opposite as other teams. Most other teams have average big men and need their guards to open up things for their big men to be able to get good looks.

 

[TopSecretBoiler]

Simple. Play with the mindset of the near comeback and this takes care of itself IMO.

On to Vandy..

if the travels are called correctly we would have one less turnover and one more basket and butler would have 2 more turnovers and one less basket. new ballgame.

 

[lbodel]

if the travels are called correctly we would have one less turnover and one more basket and butler would have 2 more turnovers and one less basket. new ballgame.

18 turnovers is a joke for a "top 10" team. If you want to take away our 1 travel, 17 turnovers is still a joke. Whether we win or not.

Our turnovers are a major problem - they are our worst statistic. To deflect away from that is silly.

The first step to fixing it is admitting it's a problem...

 

[PU pit bull]

More to your point, on Haas especially. CMP said a week or so ago that Haas avg. 1 TO every 3 minutes last year........this year, up to a week or so ago, he was avg. 1 TO every 17 minutes IIRC. His FT% went from like 53% to 73% IIRC as well. I do believe that when CMP sent tape to the head office about how the officials were handling the "Haas" situation.....it helped for the most part. The experience certainly factors in there also. CMP said on the same radio show that he has sent in tape of Vince's "alleged" travels, whereby he insists VE is not travelling. We will see if that helps. Regardless, this is an area that the team can control, so I believe the TO's will lower somewhat as the season progresses.

 

[PU pit bull]

18 turnovers is a joke for a "top 10" team. If you want to take away our 1 travel, 17 turnovers is still a joke. Whether we win or not.

Our turnovers are a major problem - they are our worst statistic. To deflect away from that is silly.

The first step to fixing it is admitting it's a problem...

I won't argue with you about TO's, it's been a problem thus far. But there were some calls that could have swung the momentum. Anyway, it's over now. On to the next one.

 

[CRBoiler]

I'd say up to 3 or 4 of the TO's were bogus, but even then the count was too high. It seemed like we had several fumble type TO's that were out of character, and Butler's aggressive D was partly why, but so was good old fashioned bad luck IMO. In any event, I agree with OP this needs to be an area we improve. Now that TO's lost a game for them, I suspect the team very much agrees.

 

[lbodel]

I'd say up to 3 or 4 of the TO's were bogus, but even then the count was too high. It seemed like we had several fumble type TO's that were out of character, and Butler's aggressive D was partly why, but so was good old fashioned bad luck IMO. In any event, I agree with OP this needs to be an area we improve. Now that TO's lost a game for them, I suspect the team very much agrees.

As Matt Painter said after the game...

"You have to be tough, mentally tough. And the mental toughness comes with the turnovers. You have to be able to play without turning the ball over."

 

[lbodel]

I won't argue with you about TO's, it's been a problem thus far. But there were some calls that could have swung the momentum. Anyway, it's over now. On to the next one.

I know you aren't the team - or the coach. But it just bothers me when people even bring it up. When have you ever seen a game where the refs got every travel, double dribble, charge, foul on a blocked shot, etc. right? It just never happens.

I don't want to make this into some big issue, but people these days just have to have an excuse for everything. Instead of just saying we have too many turnovers, period - there's all these people blaming the refs, even though taking those specific calls out, we still had too many turnovers. So why even bring it up? We had too many turnovers - period.

Today, people on here are questioning why did we have such a bad game? Instead of - oh yeah, playing our first top 25 game on a neutral court - we have these elaborate excuses like the refs were biased against us, our finals are harder than Butler's finals, etc.

We played a good team and lost. And in that game we turned the ball over way too many times.

Let's focus on what we can fix the rest of the season....and our #1 problem, just as it has been all through this season (it's one of like 2 statistics Purdue's not in the top half of the Big Ten, is turnovers.

I know that you're not necessarily going that extreme to blame it - but we have to be realistic that this team has flaws that need to be fixed and that we can control, just as every team in the country does. There's a reason teams don't go undefeated.

 

[boilerzz]

I know you aren't the team - or the coach. But it just bothers me when people even bring it up. When have you ever seen a game where the refs got every travel, double dribble, charge, foul on a blocked shot, etc. right? It just never happens.

You do realize that your nitpicking every time someone calls out a ref just exacerbates the perception that people are blaming the officials, right?

There will always be people that call out the officials. There are in every fanbase. Sometimes they might even be right. I know it bothers you but IMO both you and this board would be better off if you just ignored them.

 

[PU pit bull]

I know you aren't the team - or the coach. But it just bothers me when people even bring it up. When have you ever seen a game where the refs got every travel, double dribble, charge, foul on a blocked shot, etc. right? It just never happens.

I don't want to make this into some big issue, but people these days just have to have an excuse for everything. Instead of just saying we have too many turnovers, period - there's all these people blaming the refs, even though taking those specific calls out, we still had too many turnovers. So why even bring it up? We had too many turnovers - period.

Today, people on here are questioning why did we have such a bad game? Instead of - oh yeah, playing our first top 25 game on a neutral court - we have these elaborate excuses like the refs were biased against us, our finals are harder than Butler's finals, etc.

We played a good team and lost. And in that game we turned the ball over way too many times.

Let's focus on what we can fix the rest of the season....and our #1 problem, just as it has been all through this season (it's one of like 2 statistics Purdue's not in the top half of the Big Ten, is turnovers.

I know that you're not necessarily going that extreme to blame it - but we have to be realistic that this team has flaws that need to be fixed and that we can control, just as every team in the country does. There's a reason teams don't go undefeated.

I don't have a problem with what you are saying...........BUT, I do have a problem with people being too politically correct and not calling a duck a duck. If there were bad calls, then there were bad calls. Did it cause PU to lose, most likely not........most likely. I did find it interesting that when the whistles blew in PU favor in the latter part of the game, the team responded confidently and damn near pulled the come back win. Our young team will learn to get around this IMO, of course CMP sending tapes to the higher ups doesn't hurt LOL. Post game interviews are all "coach speak"......make no mistake about it, CMP has been upset about the Haas situation and what has been happening with Vince recently. Of course he won't say that is why PU lost, and he shouldn't, but it is silly not to think it didn't affect the play.......and certainly he wouldn't be sending tapes if he thought it was nothing. Let's move on from this though.......I have no quarrel with you at all. TO's are a problem that need rectified.

 

[lbodel]

You do realize that your nitpicking every time someone calls out a ref just exacerbates the perception that people are blaming the officials, right?

There will always be people that call out the officials. There are in every fanbase. Sometimes they might even be right. I know it bothers you but IMO both you and this board would be better off if you just ignored them.

I get it. I don't bother even reading the threads like the one about Bryson Scott - those are just silly. If I didn't respect the poster, I wouldn't reply.

Overall, I think our fan base has been taught to make excuses. Our athletic administration has built it's messaging on it - Purdue's always "at a disadvantage" because of this or that. For years, it hasn't inspired success and not sure why it ever would.

I just prefer to figure out our problems, disadvantages, etc. and fix them. I am proud that you'll never hear "whiner" be a descriptor that anyone has - our own fans or opposing fans - of Matt Painter.

 

[lbodel]

I don't have a problem with what you are saying...........BUT, I do have a problem with people being too politically correct and not calling a duck a duck. If there were bad calls, then there were bad calls. Did it cause PU to lose, most likely not........most likely. I did find it interesting that when the whistles blew in PU favor in the latter part of the game, the team responded confidently and damn near pulled the come back win. Our young team will learn to get around this IMO, of course CMP sending tapes to the higher ups doesn't hurt LOL. Post game interviews are all "coach speak"......make no mistake about it, CMP has been upset about the Haas situation and what has been happening with Vince recently. Of course he won't say that is why PU lost, and he shouldn't, but it is silly not to think it didn't affect the play.......and certainly he wouldn't be sending tapes if he thought it was nothing. Let's move on from this though.......I have no quarrel with you at all. TO's are a problem that need rectified.

I get what you're saying. I'm just saying there's one fact of life: college basketball refs are never going to be consistent and you'll always have missed calls here and there. There were times Purdue fans were booing yesterday, there were times Butler fans were booing yesterday. I think Painter's done a good job making cases for himself. You rarely can make those effective cases in a game when you can't see replays. The announcers themselves said it - sometimes things look worse than they are (i.e. seeing a replay in slow mo vs. real time) - sometimes looks can be deceiving when it comes to travels. I certainly do not envy college basketball refs - I think it's one of the hardest jobs out there. Yesterday, the refs let the players play. We did a horrible job adjusting to that and taking advantage of it. Usually we're a team that loves that situation - we want to play physical defense. But you can't have your cake (want your bigs to be protected on offense) and eat it too (we want to play physical defense).

 

[boilerzz]

Overall, I think all fan bases has been taught to make excuses.

FIFY - It's 2015

 

[PU pit bull]

I get what you're saying. I'm just saying there's one fact of life: college basketball refs are never going to be consistent and you'll always have missed calls here and there. There were times Purdue fans were booing yesterday, there were times Butler fans were booing yesterday. I think Painter's done a good job making cases for himself. You rarely can make those effective cases in a game when you can't see replays. The announcers themselves said it - sometimes things look worse than they are (i.e. seeing a replay in slow mo vs. real time) - sometimes looks can be deceiving when it comes to travels. I certainly do not envy college basketball refs - I think it's one of the hardest jobs out there. Yesterday, the refs let the players play. We did a horrible job adjusting to that and taking advantage of it. Usually we're a team that loves that situation - we want to play physical defense. But you can't have your cake (want your bigs to be protected on offense) and eat it too (we want to play physical defense).

We all good Ibodel!!! Hope the team learns and gets better......GO BOILERS!

 

[Bigohh]

if the travels are called correctly we would have one less turnover and one more basket and butler would have 2 more turnovers and one less basket. new ballgame.

Actually there were two travels on us that were not. Replay of both shows the pivot foot did not move. I wonder WTF the ref was looking at to make the call? I assume the cheerleaders.
Good refs BTW don't make calls they do not see. If they miss them (like the hold of Vince by a Butler player right in front of a ref but on the side opposite him) then ok. But calling something that is a fantasy is not looking in the right place at the right time and is incompetence.

 

[TopSecretBoiler]

fouls are one thing and i try not to pay much attention to it because its just a hard thing to do in real time. but the travel calls there are no excuses. its shitty reffing and we seem to get a disproportionate amount of the short end. did we lose for other reasons too, yes obviously. but a few possessions is a big deal between high level teams. and these arent borderline calls. i want to watch the players decide things not the refs making things up. ive watched refs cost us football games and jim burr cost the baby boilers a big title. so tired of it.

 

[Bigohh]

fouls are one thing and i try not to pay much attention to it because its just a hard thing to do in real time. but the travel calls there are no excuses. its shitty reffing and we seem to get a disproportionate amount of the short end. did we lose for other reasons too, yes obviously. but a few possessions is a big deal between high level teams. and these arent borderline calls. i want to watch the players decide things not the refs making things up. ive watched refs cost us football games and jim burr cost the baby boilers a big title. so tired of it.

And Tom Rucker cost us a trip to the elite 8 in 1996 I believe. I think I still have a VCR of him looking right at our guy being mugged while the opponent grabbed a rebound and put the ball in the hoop for the win.

 

[BBG]

fouls are one thing and i try not to pay much attention to it because its just a hard thing to do in real time. but the travel calls there are no excuses. its shitty reffing and we seem to get a disproportionate amount of the short end. did we lose for other reasons too, yes obviously. but a few possessions is a big deal between high level teams. and these arent borderline calls. i want to watch the players decide things not the refs making things up. ive watched refs cost us football games and jim burr cost the baby boilers a big title. so tired of it.

My biggest thing with officiating is consistency. Want to call a crappy game? I'm fine with that... just do it on both ends.

That said, this was lost with all the turnovers plain and simple. Something very fixable.

 

[Purdue Grad in Texas]

And Tom Rucker cost us a trip to the elite 8 in 1996 I believe. I think I still have a VCR of him looking right at our guy being mugged while the opponent grabbed a rebound and put the ball in the hoop for the win.

1995, round of 32 against Memphis......I was in the stands @ the Irwin Center in Austin, Texas. I will say this, that over the years I've come to realize that the officials just aren't going to make that call at the end of a game. Tough way to end a season.

Being a glutton for punishment.....around the 2:48 mark.....judge for yourself.....

 

[rjmpu82]

CS is a smart guy. He will figure it out with experience and with help from the coaches. He is a good college player at 5 weeks into his freshman season. We got outplayed, out hustled. Nothing new for us coming off finals......have seen it for years. Refs make mistakes at both ends but I will admit I think we got the short end of the officiating stick. Did it change the outcome? No.

 

[troggy]

Watching replays of traveling calls must be tons of fun, especially in slow motion.

 

[*4purdue*]

It's pretty simple: butler turned it over 10 less times than we did, and therefore took 10 more shots. Take better care of the ball, you win the game.

How do we fix that? Don't know. That's why painter makes the big bucks.

For those that think we have a turnover

It's pretty simple: butler turned it over 10 less times than we did, and therefore took 10 more shots. Take better care of the ball, you win the game.

How do we fix that? Don't know. That's why painter makes the big bucks.

For those complaining about turnovers, if you look at the stats it's pretty obvious how to cut the number down.., bench Swanigan. He had 7 or our 18 turnovers yesterday and leads the team by a wide margin on the season. He averages 3.4 per game. Hammons is second with 1.8 per game. Does anyone really think that is the answer? If so, then I don't think you know basketball. Hopefully he will improve as the season progresses, but he is not going to be benched. He's by a wide margin our best player and we are going to have to just live with his growing pains.

 

[purdue4sure]

Our turnovers are a major problem - they are our worst statistic. To deflect away from that is silly.

The first step to fixing it is admitting it's a problem...

Coach Painter did that. Why is it important to this team's success that an anonymous poster on a message board agrees?

 

[lbodel]

Coach Painter did that. Why is it important to this team's success that an anonymous poster on a message board agrees?

That was a joke, sir.

 

[lbodel]

For those that think we have a turnover

For those complaining about turnovers, if you look at the stats it's pretty obvious how to cut the number down.., bench Swanigan. He had 7 or our 18 turnovers yesterday and leads the team by a wide margin on the season. He averages 3.4 per game. Hammons is second with 1.8 per game. Does anyone really think that is the answer? If so, then I don't think you know basketball. Hopefully he will improve as the season progresses, but he is not going to be benched. He's by a wide margin our best player and we are going to have to just live with his growing pains.

I don't think I've seen anyone say bench Swanigan.

I have said a couple times - we lived and died by Swanigan yesterday. His point/rebounding production was tremendous, but his turnovers were horrific. It's a tough situation. Swanigan was getting a bit better with the turnovers, but then obviously our defensive competition stepped up facing Butler. Him playing one game against that competition will go a lot further than him playing against 4 Incarnate Words. Hopefully he will get it sorted out.

 

[*4purdue*]

I don't think I've seen anyone say bench Swanigan.

I have said a couple times - we lived and died by Swanigan yesterday. His point/rebounding production was tremendous, but his turnovers were horrific. It's a tough situation. Swanigan was getting a bit better with the turnovers, but then obviously our defensive competition stepped up facing Butler. Him playing one game against that competition will go a lot further than him playing against 4 Incarnate Words. Hopefully he will get it sorted out.

Nobody has said it, but a lot think we will not be successful unless we eliminate the turnovers. Yes, 18 is a large number, but we were still within a possession of tie in the last minute of the game and if Haas shoots his average and is not 2-7, we win. We play 10 deep. Most only had a turnover or 2, which is going to happen. If CS only has 1, we would be at 12, which I think is a reasonable number for this team. Regardless of how many he has, his good outweighs them.

 

[troggy]

I know you aren't the team - or the coach. But it just bothers me when people even bring it up. When have you ever seen a game where the refs got every travel, double dribble, charge, foul on a blocked shot, etc. right? It just never happens.

Traveling calls are missed all the time. Guys walk all over the place with no call. It's gotten progressively worse over the years.

I was joking the other day that one of the rule changes for this year was suspending traveling as a violation.

 

[lbodel]

Nobody has said it, but a lot think we will not be successful unless we eliminate the turnovers. Yes, 18 is a large number, but we were still within a possession of tie in the last minute of the game and if Haas shoots his average and is not 2-7, we win. We play 10 deep. Most only had a turnover or 2, which is going to happen. If CS only has 1, we would be at 12, which I think is a reasonable number for this team. Regardless of how many he has, his good outweighs them.

I mean, it's great that we hit some last shots to get it close. But you can also say that even if we just had our season average of turnovers, we win the game comfortably.

Protecting the ball is something you can control. You can't control every one of your shots.

Turnovers is literally the only statistic that Purdue is at the bottom of the Big Ten. I'd also add that turnovers are very disruptive to your game plan. It disrupts your offensive plan, it adds extra transition defense that you have to play (which is tiring) and gives your opponents extra possessions.

 

[BBG]

I mean, it's great that we hit some last shots to get it close. But you can also say that even if we just had our season average of turnovers, we win the game comfortably.

Protecting the ball is something you can control. You can't control every one of your shots.

Turnovers is literally the only statistic that Purdue is at the bottom of the Big Ten. I'd also add that turnovers are very disruptive to your game plan. It disrupts your offensive plan, it adds extra transition defense that you have to play (which is tiring) and gives your opponents extra possessions.

And officiating!!






Sorry...someone had to say it

 

[lbodel]

And officiating!!






Sorry...someone had to say it

Yes the biggest thing we need to fix is officiating! We wouldn't lose a game the rest of the season...