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Socialism

You didn’t address the point about your thinly veiled “NOT being a socialist”. I know a lot of people who have little, and have never went the route of “they’re getting screwed”. Because each made a choice…firefighter, dental assistant with a terrible spouse, nurse with a terrible spouse, GED because they thought that was just good enough and they couldn’t keep their legs closed. I live amongst everyone you are referencing…and only the worst of them complain about getting the short end of the stick. How about some accountability for decisions?
Isn't it funny, he started two posts asking about socialism and feigning that he was just curious but as he continues to post it sounds like he is running for a socialist leader in an election? That is how they work , sneaky , lying , underhanded but trying to come across as just a normal person asking a question.
 
Geez, I thought you don't want governments to boss around and tell corporations what to do?

Capitalism is about efficiency, and producing goods at the lowest cost. So if Vietnam is offering cheap labor, that's where American capital will go to. So now you want the government to be authoritarian and dictate what the companies to do? It's funny how double standard you can be.



China economy was bad when it was isolated. Then when they opened up, American capitalists invested there and built factories, producing goods that were sold to the US. The capitalists were making good money. Moving to our allies? European labor are just as expensive as US, if not more. Why would American capitalists move their factories there, when they have stricter restriction and a more demanding union?

These days, China is so big that they are probably fine even if America buys fewer Chinese goods. Thanks to Trump pulling out of TPP, China has now created a free trade zone with other Asian countries under RCEP. They don't need the US as much.

You might wanna brush up your knowledge in economics before embarrassing yourself further. This is a good easy start.

I’m aware of everything you pointed out, RE the US pulling out of the TPP, etc.

Why would businesses pull out of China? Tariffs.

As for the EU and SE Asia continuing to trade with China, I have no doubt that they will continue to do so, but as you often have pointed out, sometimes the US needs to take a leadership role.

As for brushing up on economics, I think I know economics pretty well. And from an pure economics perspective, trading with China is an advantage, but continuing to do so just increases Chinas power internationally.

and since I’m “embarrassing” myself answer one question....

Trump placed tariffs on China. Why hasn’t Biden reversed those tariffs? Biden has reversed most everything else Trump did, why not reverse the tariffs?
 
I’m aware of everything you pointed out, RE the US pulling out of the TPP, etc.

Why would businesses pull out of China? Tariffs.

As for the EU and SE Asia continuing to trade with China, I have no doubt that they will continue to do so, but as you often have pointed out, sometimes the US needs to take a leadership role.

As for brushing up on economics, I think I know economics pretty well. And from an pure economics perspective, trading with China is an advantage, but continuing to do so just increases Chinas power internationally.

and since I’m “embarrassing” myself answer one question....

Trump placed tariffs on China. Why hasn’t Biden reversed those tariffs? Biden has reversed most everything else Trump did, why not reverse the tariffs?
Charlespig has really showed himself for what he is , kind of hard to take Charledpig seriously, but he starts out with these little questions and then wow, is Charlespig a Chinese socialist plant on the board is becoming the bigger question? We all know builderbob6 has just been a raving lunatic with no real basis in anything he says except hate and being a clown but @charlespig seems to have quite the agenda. Why dont you tell us all about it @charlespig?
 
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If you have to ask it that way, I suppose Germany developed the vaccine fastest? The Pfizer / Biontech use funding from the German government, not American. Russia and China also claim they develop the vaccine before Pfizer, although I am skeptical about their results. Still, China's vaccine has been used on a large sample, and so far China is not having another outbreak.



I agree that they probably steal technology from the US. But I don't quite get the logic of them getting money from the US to subsidize US. If US already has the money, then why do we also have $23 trillion in debt?
How Germany doing in getting its people vaccinated? Socialized medicine is GREAT! (DWS)

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/ge...rollout-shortages-bureaucracy-european-union/

How’s Canada doing?

 
That actually describes the ultra rich. They can just sit on their big pile of money, let someone else do all the heavy lifting, and get paid just b/c they already have a big pile of money to begin with.



Again, I have spent years living in Hong Kong. When it comes to capitalism, Hong Kong was far more capitalistic than America. Tax rate is super low there. Until in the last decade when China exerted its control, China was free and market-driven. Milton Friedman even once portrayed it as the last bastion of classical capitalism.

So one side effect of this great capitalist city is the wealth gap it created. Housing is a crazy issue there. A typical apartment unit is only 550 sqft or so, but it cost $1.2M. It will take 21 (!) years of median salary to buy 550 sqft of living space.


So it isn't that people don't wanna get out of the gutter, but if you are just getting the median salary, it is almost impossible for you to afford. So people live in 40 sqft "apartment", and you just have to see it to believe it:


It's ironic. The capitalist city created tremendous amount of wealth, and yet a large number of people can only afford living in cages.
I personally don’t believe in “equal outcomes” for living standards. When the government pushes/causes/institutes this scenario, it lowers the opportunities for the vast majority of the population. The only people who do well in this construct are “elites” in the government and people whom the government chooses/allows to do well.

The majority of people live in abject proverty such as in Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea, and the old USSR. The impetus to improve one’s lot in life is almost all but extinguished.
 
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You didn’t address the point about your thinly veiled “NOT being a socialist”.

What is to address?

If you walk into a psychiatric hospital, and those patients keep calling you a psychopath, would you "address" it?

I walk into a liberal echo chamber, and people call me a racist when I point out the nonsense of cultural appropriation. If I explain my position and they just keep calling me racist, what else is it to address?

Similarly here. Just because I actually seek to learn what socialism is and am not as far right as the folks in this echo chamber, they keep labelling me a Marxist or socialist. After explaining a few times, there's nothing really to "address."


I know a lot of people who have little, and have never went the route of “they’re getting screwed”. Because each made a choice…firefighter, dental assistant with a terrible spouse, nurse with a terrible spouse, GED because they thought that was just good enough and they couldn’t keep their legs closed. I live amongst everyone you are referencing…and only the worst of them complain about getting the short end of the stick. How about some accountability for decisions?

Sidetracking again. You asked if I am aware of the effort gap. I said effort might explain for some people, but there were also many that were not just as hard-working (or maybe more so) than me that are living in 250-sqft units. That's just what I've observed. Those people didn't complain, at least not that I am aware of, but when I see that I realize how fortunate I am to be at my position.

Like Warren Buffett said, he knew he won the ovarian lottery, by being born a male in the United States in the 1930s. If he was born in China at that time he would never be who he is today no matter if he put in 10x the "effort." If he was born a female, or black, it would also be entirely different.

// The ovarian lottery is “the most important event in which you’ll ever participate,” Buffett continued. “It’s going to determine way more than what school you go to, how hard you work, all kinds of things.” //

 
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Isn't it funny, he started two posts asking about socialism and feigning that he was just curious but as he continues to post it sounds like he is running for a socialist leader in an election? That is how they work , sneaky , lying , underhanded but trying to come across as just a normal person asking a question.

Which two posts I started? This is the only one I did. You have difficulty counting?

My original intention was to engage in a stimulating discussion on what an ideal society would look like since on a scale of 0 to 100, where 0 is the communism utopia where government do everything for you and 100 is the capitalist utopia where tax is almost nonexistent, the optimal is likely somewhere in between. I was hoping that by sharing my ideas, those who disagree might actually point out factual inaccuracies or logical inconsistencies.

Unfortunately, all I get is nonsense posts like yours here, labeling me, coming up with various conspiracy theories on my intention, but never able to attack my arguments. Then just throw a bunch of adjectives (sneaky, lying, ...) as if they are facts.
 
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Why would businesses pull out of China? Tariffs.

So you want governments to impose tariffs? What happens to free market capitalism? What happen to the Party of Free Trade?

As for the EU and SE Asia continuing to trade with China, I have no doubt that they will continue to do so, but as you often have pointed out, sometimes the US needs to take a leadership role.

So how is the US supposed to take a leadership role when its slogan is "America First"? In the UN, 167 votes in favor, and only 2 countries (US and Israel) vote against. And I can't even blame China bribing the small countries. It's everyone, even our traditional allies like UK.



As for brushing up on economics, I think I know economics pretty well. And from an pure economics perspective, trading with China is an advantage, but continuing to do so just increases Chinas power internationally.

So what are you proposing? Trade with China or not? If US stop trading with China, both countries will be worse off. China has RCEP (its free trade zone with the other Asian countries). They can still exercise their power. But American consumer will suffer. Then it leads to high inflation. Jimmy Carter 70s style. Is that what you want?

and since I’m “embarrassing” myself answer one question....

Trump placed tariffs on China. Why hasn’t Biden reversed those tariffs? Biden has reversed most everything else Trump did, why not reverse the tariffs?

Republican is supposedly the Party of Free Trade, not Dems.

There can be dozens of reasons why Biden didn't reverse the tariffs. For example, he may want to use it as a bargaining chip to negotiate with China? Or maybe tariffs is not his focus, and he is fine keeping it if he can use it to win support for his infrastructure deal? Who knows?

It's a nonsense question to begin with. Same sex marriage was passed under Obama's term. What hasn't Trump reversed it? Trump tried to undo so many things Obama did (e.g. Obamacare), so why not same sex marriage? A lot of evangelicals (who are mostly Trump supporters) were hoping Trump would uphold marriage to be strictly between a man and a woman, so why didn't he reverse it too?
 
Charlespig has really showed himself for what he is , kind of hard to take Charledpig seriously, but he starts out with these little questions and then wow, is Charlespig a Chinese socialist plant on the board is becoming the bigger question? We all know builderbob6 has just been a raving lunatic with no real basis in anything he says except hate and being a clown but @charlespig seems to have quite the agenda. Why dont you tell us all about it @charlespig?

Crayfish57 has really shown himself for what he is, kind of hard to take Crayfish57 seriously, but he starts out like a normal person and then wow, is Crayfish57 a lunatic conspiracy theorist plant on the board is becoming the bigger question? His other conspiracy theories include builderbob6 just being a raving lunatic with no real basis in anything he says except hate and being a clown but Crayfish57 seems to have quite the conspiracy theories. Why don't you tell us all about it Crayfish57?

If you think the above paragraph is a bunch of nonsense, it is. But that's Crayfish57's level. He's the kind of person who would ask nonsense questions like, "You must be beating your mother. Why don't you tell us about it?"

Since socialism is such an emotionally-charged word, maybe I'll drop it and flip the question. Is capitalism perfect? Are there problematic side-effects that come with capitalism? How can we address them? That will be more meaningful than making up nonsensical conspiracy theories. What's next? Charlespig must be a China Communist mole planted in this GBI forum whose sole objective is to turn Purdue Boilermakers past and present and future into glorifying and worshipping the great Chairman Mao? And he is so sneaky, lying, and underhanded he must have been trained by the Communist secret agencies.
 
How Germany doing in getting its people vaccinated? Socialized medicine is GREAT! (DWS)

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/ge...rollout-shortages-bureaucracy-european-union/

How’s Canada doing?


Thank you for providence evidence with Germany and Canada that really highlight how impressive a job Biden has done in rolling out the vaccines compared to other countries, despite all the nonsensical conspiracy theories that make Trump-voting counties reluctant and hesitant in getting the vaccine.


201147133_10157699765290443_4697657646878381843_n.jpg
 
So you want governments to impose tariffs? What happens to free market capitalism? What happen to the Party of Free Trade?



So how is the US supposed to take a leadership role when its slogan is "America First"? In the UN, 167 votes in favor, and only 2 countries (US and Israel) vote against. And I can't even blame China bribing the small countries. It's everyone, even our traditional allies like UK.





So what are you proposing? Trade with China or not? If US stop trading with China, both countries will be worse off. China has RCEP (its free trade zone with the other Asian countries). They can still exercise their power. But American consumer will suffer. Then it leads to high inflation. Jimmy Carter 70s style. Is that what you want?



Republican is supposedly the Party of Free Trade, not Dems.

There can be dozens of reasons why Biden didn't reverse the tariffs. For example, he may want to use it as a bargaining chip to negotiate with China? Or maybe tariffs is not his focus, and he is fine keeping it if he can use it to win support for his infrastructure deal? Who knows?

It's a nonsense question to begin with. Same sex marriage was passed under Obama's term. What hasn't Trump reversed it? Trump tried to undo so many things Obama did (e.g. Obamacare), so why not same sex marriage? A lot of evangelicals (who are mostly Trump supporters) were hoping Trump would uphold marriage to be strictly between a man and a woman, so why didn't he reverse it too?
Free trade is what has allowed China’s rise. The Republicans may have always been about free trade, I disagree. I voted for Ross Perot in 1991.
 
Thank you for providence evidence with Germany and Canada that really highlight how impressive a job Biden has done in rolling out the vaccines compared to other countries, despite all the nonsensical conspiracy theories that make Trump-voting counties reluctant and hesitant in getting the vaccine.


201147133_10157699765290443_4697657646878381843_n.jpg
Nice change of topic. Here I thought you were talking about how great the EU socialists were. Did you read the red tape associated with getting vaccinated in Germany? Socialist health care is great, so is Canada.

per your earlier post, Germany gets the vaccine developed first and has vaccinate about 5% of their population.👏👏

Let’s stay in lockdown....socialism sounds wonderful
 
The only people who do well in this construct are “elites” in the government and people whom the government chooses/allows to do well.

But the "elites" would think their success is due to the effort gap? They would tell you that if you take personal responsibility, you can be as successful as them.

The majority of people live in abject proverty such as in Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea, and the old USSR. The impetus to improve one’s lot in life is almost all but extinguished.

Yes, the state communism in those countries have proven to be an abject failure. I'll also add the communism under Mao in China that led to tens of millions death.

But that's only a branch of "socialism", which is very different from say, the social democratic that is practiced in the Nordic countries. And those countries rank high in the Quality of Life index:

 
Free trade is what has allowed China’s rise. The Republicans may have always been about free trade, I disagree. I voted for Ross Perot in 1991.

Well, 3/4 of Republicans voted to allow China to be in WTO, despite 2/3 of Dems voting against.

 
Well, 3/4 of Republicans voted to allow China to be in WTO, despite 2/3 of Dems voting against.

Obama got the TPP done.
 
Nice change of topic. Here I thought you were talking about how great the EU socialists were. Did you read the red tape associated with getting vaccinated in Germany? Socialist health care is great, so is Canada.

per your earlier post, Germany gets the vaccine developed first and has vaccinate about 5% of their population.👏👏

Let’s stay in lockdown....socialism sounds wonderful

Socialism tends to be bureaucratic while capitalism tends to be more efficient. I thought this generalization is generally accepted.

You seem to have the wrong idea that I am "pro Socialism." No, I am fully aware of the shortcoming of socialism.

But seems like people in this echo chamber can only see the con, but not the pro. My original intent was to show that there are different kinds of socialism (e.g. USSR / Venezuela, but also Scandi Europe, which has another form of socialism), and that, if we can be humble, we might be able to take what's good in those countries, and see if we can adopt that under our capitalist framework. I thought I can start with asking simple questions like, what kind of public services are needed or acceptable, and what kind we can go without to keep a smaller government.

And for that, I am labeled a Marxist.

Governments funding vaccine research is actually a socialistic idea. For market purist, the tremendous reward in successfully developing a vaccine is the motivation for companies to conduct research using their own private money. Governments need not get involved. The company that can achieve this the quickest will be handsomely rewarded. That would be the capitalist model.
 
The idea to have TPP is to limit China's trading with the Asian countries b/c it specifically excludes China. Aren't you the one who blames free trade contributes to China's rise?
 
Nice change of topic. Here I thought you were talking about how great the EU socialists were. Did you read the red tape associated with getting vaccinated in Germany? Socialist health care is great, so is Canada.

per your earlier post, Germany gets the vaccine developed first and has vaccinate about 5% of their population.👏👏

Let’s stay in lockdown....socialism sounds wonderful
For the record, though the government provides some of the funding, Germany doesn’t have a socialized healthcare system:


Employees and employers share the cost of insurance provided by non-governmental organizations, and people pay co-pays and deductibles. Aside from the insurers being non-profit, coverage being mandatory (I know it technically is here, but with no consequence of not having it), that it covers the entire population, and the fact that you can go to any doctor without having to worry about whether they are in network, sounds a whole lot like our system.

And I don’t know where your numbers came from, but Germany has fully-vaccinated ~30% with 50% having at least one dose. Behind us, yes, but nowhere near 5%.

Canada seems to be going slow, and they do have a socialized healthcare system, though, so I guess you’re right. Except UK also has a socialized system and they are doing better than we are. Israel does too and they’re also ahead of us. So does Hungary (less than .5% behind us). So does Qatar, (1% behind us). So, maybe there are other factors in vaccine rates besides simply the type of healthcare system?

We’ve done well with vaccines, and would no doubt be doing better if we didn’t have so many who are refusing to get it. But, it’s quite the stretch to say that fact means that we have this great healthcare system. I wonder what our rates would be if the government hadn’t “socialized” the process by making vaccines free for everyone. Since people without insurance often avoid care because they can’t afford it, it’s not a stretch to suggest some folks who have been vaccinated wouldn’t be if they had to pay for it and our rates would be lower.
 
For the record, though the government provides some of the funding, Germany doesn’t have a socialized healthcare system:


Employees and employers share the cost of insurance provided by non-governmental organizations, and people pay co-pays and deductibles. Aside from the insurers being non-profit, coverage being mandatory (I know it technically is here, but with no consequence of not having it), that it covers the entire population, and the fact that you can go to any doctor without having to worry about whether they are in network, sounds a whole lot like our system.

And I don’t know where your numbers came from, but Germany has fully-vaccinated ~30% with 50% having at least one dose. Behind us, yes, but nowhere near 5%.

Canada seems to be going slow, and they do have a socialized healthcare system, though, so I guess you’re right. Except UK also has a socialized system and they are doing better than we are. Israel does too and they’re also ahead of us. So does Hungary (less than .5% behind us). So does Qatar, (1% behind us). So, maybe there are other factors in vaccine rates besides simply the type of healthcare system?

We’ve done well with vaccines, and would no doubt be doing better if we didn’t have so many who are refusing to get it. But, it’s quite the stretch to say that fact means that we have this great healthcare system. I wonder what our rates would be if the government hadn’t “socialized” the process by making vaccines free for everyone. Since people without insurance often avoid care because they can’t afford it, it’s not a stretch to suggest some folks who have been vaccinated wouldn’t be if they had to pay for it and our rates would be lower.
RE 5%... I found an article that could be dated where both the Canadians and Germans were concerned that their vaccinations programs were substantially behind the US. The number quoted was in the article...it’s linked above.

As for “socialist” healthcare, I have read that is free for the elderly, poor and disabled. I assume that’s 15-25% of their population depending on economic conditions. I may have interpreted that as socialist, so maybe it’s in a “grey zone”
 
RE 5%... I found an article that could be dated where both the Canadians and Germans were concerned that their vaccinations programs were substantially behind the US. The number quoted was in the article...it’s linked above.
yes, I read it before responding. It doesn’t say 5% either, though that may be a good estimate since it said 10% with at least one shot. The article was from March.
As for “socialist” healthcare, I have read that is free for the elderly, poor and disabled. I assume that’s 15-25% of their population depending on economic conditions. I may have interpreted that as socialist, so maybe it’s in a “grey zone”

Sure, which, again, looks a lot like ours with Medicare and Medicaid.
 
What is to address?

If you walk into a psychiatric hospital, and those patients keep calling you a psychopath, would you "address" it?

I walk into a liberal echo chamber, and people call me a racist when I point out the nonsense of cultural appropriation. If I explain my position and they just keep calling me racist, what else is it to address?

Similarly here. Just because I actually seek to learn what socialism is and am not as far right as the folks in this echo chamber, they keep labelling me a Marxist or socialist. After explaining a few times, there's nothing really to "address."




Sidetracking again. You asked if I am aware of the effort gap. I said effort might explain for some people, but there were also many that were not just as hard-working (or maybe more so) than me that are living in 250-sqft units. That's just what I've observed. Those people didn't complain, at least not that I am aware of, but when I see that I realize how fortunate I am to be at my position.

Like Warren Buffett said, he knew he won the ovarian lottery, by being born a male in the United States in the 1930s. If he was born in China at that time he would never be who he is today no matter if he put in 10x the "effort." If he was born a female, or black, it would also be entirely different.

// The ovarian lottery is “the most important event in which you’ll ever participate,” Buffett continued. “It’s going to determine way more than what school you go to, how hard you work, all kinds of things.” //

Deflecting again and rationalizing it. The socialism push these days isn’t due to concern over public welfare by and large, it’s people complaining about their lot in life.

I see no relevance in Buffets musings on some cliche term like ovarian lottery. Yes, I’ll listen to his investing advice, but in any other regard, he may as well be Bono spouting off about topics unrelated to music.
 
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Trump placed tariffs on China. Why hasn’t Biden reversed those tariffs? Biden has reversed most everything else Trump did, why not reverse the tariffs?
many u.s. manufacturers have requested they remove those tax increases.

but given the stresses on supply chains, they may not for some time to avoid creating even more chaos.
 
many u.s. manufacturers have requested they remove those tax increases.

but given the stresses on supply chains, they may not for some time to avoid creating even more chaos.

Tariffs help the American people by protecting their jobs. These aren't US manufacturers, these are globalist corporations.
 
Deflecting again and rationalizing it. The socialism push these days isn’t due to concern over public welfare by and large, it’s people complaining about their lot in life.

I see no relevance in Buffets musings on some cliche term like ovarian lottery. Yes, I’ll listen to his investing advice, but in any other regard, he may as well be Bono spouting off about topics unrelated to music.

Buffet is a philandering POS.
 
Yes.

But effort doesn't explain the difference of wealth gap. Again, using Hong Kong as an example b/c it is one of the most capitalist city, a guy can work diligently, 10 hours a day, 6 days a week, and still cannot afford a decent place to live. It isn't for a lack of effort.

Capitalism is inherently winner takes all. Rich will get richer, b/c they can use their capital instead of "working" themselves. Lazy people will not win, but even hard-working people can still fall victim.
There are inherent issues with Capitalism as there are with Socialism. Historical Socialist and Communist countries had to utilize totalitarianism at the start to keep the masses from revolting and used it as an excuse to keep ruling indefinitely as they didn't want to lose power (Venezuela, USSR, China). There will never be a true Socialist or Communist country as those in power won't give up power to allow the people to rule.

The issue with Capitalism is greed. This has become a bigger issue with corporations as they elect board members who have been prior CEOs and continue to reward current CEOs with ludicrous compensation packages. There needs to be some additional governance over publicly traded companies with regard to income gaps between leadership and the working class.
 
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