From the graphic you posted: "State owns some industry."
Capitalism has made America the most powerful country in the world. What country drives innovation? What country developed the vaccine the fastest?
Correct me if I’m wrong- but I think you said at some point you were very much pro capitalism but your view has changed over time a little? The way you’re approaching this debate…multiple types of socialism…not all are bad, makes me wonder if your retirement plan is coming up a little short? Are you selling a vision based on self preservation?Sounds like you are describing the lower left corner of the second chart in the OP, the "State Communism" that has proven to be a disaster. Still, that doesn't describe what "socialism" is, any more than KKK describes what "Christians" are. I don't see many Scandi European trying to escape from their countries. On the contrary, they are ranked very high on the Qualify of Life Index:
Quality of Life Index by Country 2024 Mid-Year
www.numbeo.com
I love point #1 “more equal society” In other words sit on your ass and let someone else go do all the heavy lifting and you reap equal reward. Everybody has the same opportunity in America because of capitalism. If they want a better life for themselves then go get it. If they want out of the gutter then get out of the gutter.Before we begin, let me preface by saying that I am in favor of capitalism. Always been. Used to be 100% and want to push everything to the extreme, like a 100% market-driven capitalist economy, but now more towards the middle but still capitalism-leaning.
What prompts me to start this thread though is how misunderstood "socialism" is. I've heard a lot of people demonizing "socialism" as if it is some kind of monster, like Nazism (although, to be fair, there is a part of socialism in Nazism, since Nazi really means Nationalsozialistische, or National Socialist, which is the strange brainchild and take the worst elements of far-right and far-left). But the truth is, socialism covers a very wide range of ideas, for example:
Obviously it is impossible to know all of those, so if we simplify it to just the most famous ones, we can largely divide it based on level of political freedom and how much the economy is market-based:
I suppose very few people in the US would want to live in the authoritarian state, so we can put aside the bottom for now and just focus on the top right. Now, we can further discuss the pros and cons of it:
Again, let me be clear that I am not advocating to turn American into a socialistic country. But I find it hilarious that people would b!tch how much a threat socialism is in an echo chamber without even knowing what socialism really is about. They are just attacking their straw man idea of socialism and feel they are beating up a monster. If you think socialism is so harmful to the country, the way to get rid of it is not to b!tch about it, but rather, to understand what it is promoting that appeals to the masses (e.g., look at the "pros" in the table above), and see if you can address those issues under the current capitalist framework. Coz once those concerns are addressed, there is no more incentive for people to choose socialism.
I say the same thing with Trumpism too. One can b!tch about it, esp. in an echo chamber, and feel righteous. More productive is to understand why an arrogant, narcissistic, boastful person (basically the opposite of everything that Jesus preached for) won so many votes, esp. among Evangelical Christians. What is his appeal, and what is the issue that people thought he was addressing?
And ultimately, b!tching about an idea is not helpful. What we really want is to build the kind of society that we want. We probably want to take the best elements from various ideas, for example, capitalism is great at achieving efficiency and incentivizing people to work hard and create, while socialism can help reduce externalities, promote protection of the environment, and increase social cohesion. Try to see how we can achieve the best of both worlds. That will be a much healthier and productive dialogue than just beating up on a word. Just like "Muslim." Some people have a negative opinion of it and they don't even understand what the religion is about. I know that very well because I used to be one of those people.
In 2008 A bunch of people took out mortgages and did not pay them back. Had individuals stuck with their obligation to re-pay the mortgage and money borrowed we would not have had the mess of 2008.
Spot on. While I believe there is a segment we absolutely need to help, I also believe there’s a segment that expects this help….and they are the people who will fight the hardest for entitlement.
Throughout the 2000s predatory mortgage lenders incentivized people into shaky loans they knew they couldn't afford because even defaults make them a profit. Then the bottom fell out of the market and millions were underwater. Had mortgage lenders and banks not been so greedy we would not have had the mess of 2008.
And then Republicans alongside moderate Dems stripped bankruptcy protections from average working people. They're all ghouls.
Actually it was about mortgages being approved when they (under normal circumstances) shouldn’t have been approved. Loans with crap ratings were bundled with better loans and resold….the problem was that with the lending policies that were loosened under Clinton, being able to gauge questionable loans from solid loans left a lot of room for interpretation. Derivatives only amplified the issue. There are a couple great documentaries on this as well as one movie “The Big Short”. Bottom line is the loose lending policies created the issue. (Regardless if you agree with either side…the Big Short is a great movie with a ton of cameo appearances …and it also gives you an idea of how the govt manipulates data until they can no longer hide their mistakes). Anyway- good for the guy that figured it out and made a lot of money by shorting the market because he saw it for what it was…and it wasn’t derivatives.
RE But I don't quite get the logic of them getting money from the US to subsidize US.
Let’s see what happens to your retirement plan in 3 yrs if corporate taxes go up and inflation goes up. Welcome to the late 70s and Jimmy Carter’s economy
propertylistings.ft.com
My retirement plan is to put a President in office who will tax the living hell out of older retirees who have what I believe is an excess of funds. Hope it isn’t you Charles! 😜😜
Nope...I don’t think Biden is going to raise corporate taxes because I think people like Larry Summers will speak loud enough that someone on Biden’s staff to wake up to reality OR Joe Manchin will prevent Biden from going full Bernie Sanders. But am I concerned...yes.
I think you bring jobs back to US, then ask US companies to invest in Canada and our allies.
Just curious about all your thinly veiled references to not being a socialist when you started these threads and are most certainly a hardcore socialist.How do you know all this about a guy that can work dilligently 10 hrs a day 6 days a week? Maybe he should endeavor to better himself then.
You didn’t address the point about your thinly veiled “NOT being a socialist”. I know a lot of people who have little, and have never went the route of “they’re getting screwed”. Because each made a choice…firefighter, dental assistant with a terrible spouse, nurse with a terrible spouse, GED because they thought that was just good enough and they couldn’t keep their legs closed. I live amongst everyone you are referencing…and only the worst of them complain about getting the short end of the stick. How about some accountability for decisions?
