SI article
- Thread starter kvc
- Start date
Great article. Just like many, we got to hit from outside. We have to outscore the other team. Our perimeter defense is liability. Let's go Boilers.
It's nice to know that someone else out there see what we've been seeing. Man, for just a bit of good luck...
This year I honestly think we'll have one of 2 outcomes.
1) Ivey showcases himself and carries us to S16
2) The team as a whole reaches FF
1) Ivey showcases himself and carries us to S16
2) The team as a whole reaches FF
Purdue, without question, has had bad luck.
At the same time, to some extent...at least at some point(s), you have to generate some luck as well. Losing to N. Texas had nothing to do with bad luck...getting routed by Kansas a few years ago at a time that Purdue had a roster littered with professional talent had nothing to do with bad luck.
This particular team has everything it needs to get to a Final Four and play for a National Championship, yet, it lost 7 games, did not win the regular season conference title or tournament title...and, despite being a team that could have been a 1-seed...playing close to home...it finds itself a 3-seed and not playing close to home.
They lost 4 games on last-second shots...bad luck...but, they played poorly throughout to be in a position as such to lose on said last-second shots...so while it is easy to write it off as bad luck, if they simply do little things (make free throws, don't turn the ball over, etc.), they are not in a position for luck to even come into play.
This team without a doubt has the best potential to reach a FF for the first time since '80...if they don't somehow get there (and the path is anything but easy), it will be as disappointing as any in that continued pursuit to get back for the first time since 1980. Purdue is not in a situation like Gonzaga or Kentucky or Duke where there is a reasonable chance on almost an annual basis of being in the position that Purdue found itself in this year...if it fails to capitalize...and, to date it has...it will be as disappointing as any as I had said...if it somehow does find its way there, it will be as exciting and rewarding at the other end of the spectrum, and, more importantly, it would be impactful for the program like nothing else has been...here is hoping that they find a way to make some luck along the way to New Orleans.
Agree. For as good as Ivey is, he presses the issue at times and tries to do too much and either turns it over or drives into the lane with nowhere to go. Everyone has to be dialed in to make Final Four
That is something that has been missing with this team...a killer instinct...an embracing of adversity or hostile environments, etc.
Lots of teams hope to win...want to win...but, special ones HATE to lose, and, to your point, essentially refuse to lose.
Everyone believes Purdue has the talent to have been better in the games to date, and to ultimately reach the FF. But along the lines of the last few posts, is this talent only physical?
Agree on this matter/point...this team makes a lot of really bad basketball decisions...individually, and, collectively...and, it definitely is not a team as I said that embraces adversity or hostile environments...there are some past teams that would have LOVED to have played in the game at Rutgers or Indinia or MSU or Wisconsin...this team did not wilt by any means, but, it did not go out and send any messages either.
I should have included in my other post as respects luck that this team added two premier HS recruits...one is sitting out, and, the other has failed to develop at all unfortunately...both are great kids...both have bright futures...but, they had two guys coming in to make what was already a talented and deep team SO much better, and, it has not happened...that has nothing at all to do with luck...so, again, easy to cite bad luck for some of what has happened since 1980, but, Purdue has been its own worst enemy at times as well unfortunately, and, that has absolutely been the case with this particular team to date.
The only thing missing in that thorough review of the trials and tribulations of Purdue basketball in the NCAA tournament was the Boilers having to play Memphis State in Memphis in 1984, and LSU in Baton Rouge in 1986.
To play advocatus diaboli regarding CMP's extensive playbook: Is it overkill on his part? I understand his desire to keep the opponents guessing, but are all the plays and counters and counter-counters too much?
So often this season -- as just one example -- I have seen Gillis wave or point Ivey in a different direction during a play. Ivey himself admitted to botching the play against OSU (for which he obviously made up immediately). It would be fascinating to watch game film with CMP to see how often this happens with all of the guys and if it's a matter of confusion.
Perhaps it's a matter of a lack of concentration/poor decision-making that seems to plague this particular squad. So I wonder if the playbook that is like that of a football team's is information overload and not conducive to this team's make-up.
Also, the playbook is likely way too nuanced to my amateur eye, but it appears that the Boilers run a lot of the same stuff each game, particularly the first possession play where Sasha gets the ball on the left wing and throws the entry to Zach. Maybe I am answering the thought in the above paragraph, and the playbook has been tightened up.
At any rate, intriguing read that did contain a few gut-punches.
To play advocatus diaboli regarding CMP's extensive playbook: Is it overkill on his part? I understand his desire to keep the opponents guessing, but are all the plays and counters and counter-counters too much?
So often this season -- as just one example -- I have seen Gillis wave or point Ivey in a different direction during a play. Ivey himself admitted to botching the play against OSU (for which he obviously made up immediately). It would be fascinating to watch game film with CMP to see how often this happens with all of the guys and if it's a matter of confusion.
Perhaps it's a matter of a lack of concentration/poor decision-making that seems to plague this particular squad. So I wonder if the playbook that is like that of a football team's is information overload and not conducive to this team's make-up.
Also, the playbook is likely way too nuanced to my amateur eye, but it appears that the Boilers run a lot of the same stuff each game, particularly the first possession play where Sasha gets the ball on the left wing and throws the entry to Zach. Maybe I am answering the thought in the above paragraph, and the playbook has been tightened up.
At any rate, intriguing read that did contain a few gut-punches.
Spot on regarding the NCAA games on opponent floors, as I remember both of those...and, it in part led to that going away in that Keady was so outspoken (rightfully) on the matter.
I still contend that they were screwed in '87 when they shared a conference championship but Indinia played through Indianapolis and Purdue was sent packing and lost in the Carrier Dome.
'88 loss in Pontiac included some bad luck (banked in 3-point shot by Henson), but, it also was a case of having played poorly and again allowing for said bad luck to even come into play, as, Purdue was clearly better than that KSU team.
The article referenced the loss in '06 to Wisconsin....a team that Purdue was arguably better than, and, that had just beaten them two weeks before in Chicago in the BTT.
Purdue has had some opportunities, and, failed to capitalize...and, it has not had good fortune on its side generally...that has been true this year...at some point, the fortune should seemingly change to some extent at least, but, Purdue also needs to be better about not leaving things to fortune.
Good article. I like the part discussing their "bazillion" plays. I hoping that part of the struggle in the conference games is the other team's familiarity with how we run things. I know that goes both ways (i.e., we are familiar with the stuff run by other conference teams), but I'm hoping this year our offensive advantage will shine through. Yeah, there is plenty of film to see, but it should hard to prepare for 7'4" Edey and the plays we run.
When preparation meets opportunity is what some folks call luck.
The opposite can be said for what people call bad luck.
The opposite can be said for what people call bad luck.
Yes, if they share the ball and play as an entire "Team", we'll have a deep run. If Ivey is allowed to show the nation his talent, we'll see an earlier exit.
I personally think Painter has too many plays. Too many plays and people under pressure miss assignments.
Ivey has been sharing the ball and setting up teammates pretty well lately. I expect that to continue. Need guys who specialize in shooting to start hitting wide open shots again.
Sincere question: Did you think that before you read the article? I ask because I was surprised by that information in the article.
All that is true, but even with the 'struggles' it seems like bad luck has already landed on Purdue again, given their draw. Well, I guess if they make the Final Four this year, no one can say the guys didn't earn it.
What a great article! Some thoughts:
Wow that line hurts.
I really like the emphasis on Painter’s big brained approach to basketball, trying to be innovative and find any way possible to win.
I think the comments/questions on here about maybe our playbook is too deep are valid. But I wonder if the list couldn’t be shortened quite a bit in the tournament now that teams will have to prepare for everything that we used the regular season.
Could be a good gimmick— use a million plays during the season so that schools don’t know what to expect in the tournament. But then shorten the play book to the most effective plays, while still practicing a couple trickier ones to keep the opponent honest.
Could be a good strategy…
Wow that line hurts.
I really like the emphasis on Painter’s big brained approach to basketball, trying to be innovative and find any way possible to win.
I think the comments/questions on here about maybe our playbook is too deep are valid. But I wonder if the list couldn’t be shortened quite a bit in the tournament now that teams will have to prepare for everything that we used the regular season.
Could be a good gimmick— use a million plays during the season so that schools don’t know what to expect in the tournament. But then shorten the play book to the most effective plays, while still practicing a couple trickier ones to keep the opponent honest.
Could be a good strategy…
If you expect the game plan of the last month to continue, we're going home early.
If these guys were to get there, they earned it and then some...it would be a pretty epic run.All that is true, but even with the 'struggles' it seems like bad luck has already landed on Purdue again, given their draw. Well, I guess if they make the Final Four this year, no one can say the guys didn't earn it.
It is funny, as, it sure seems like they run a lot of the same stuff...some of that is likely personnel-driven, but, it is not like I have seen Purdue run 100 different plays or whatever...a lot of it is variations of the same thing certainly.
Matt is a basketball junkie for sure...I admittedly did not realize the extent of his passion for, or devotion to, analytics.
I don't think there is any questions that he wants to win for Purdue as much (more actually obviously) than anyone, and, I appreciate the effort and energy that he is invested in trying to make that happen...his predecessor was never really rewarded seemingly as he should have been, I hope that Matt is.
If asked I would have said they don’t run that many but it appears I would have been wrong. It does explain why Ivey did not complete the play where the ball should have gone to Edey. (Ivey made a 3 which was great compensation for messing up the play). I agree with you that Painter (and the players) want it more even we, the fans, do. Although for me, it would be a close second.
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I know I'll get tarred and feathered for this. But personally, if Painter can't reach the FF with this team, I'm not sure he'll ever get there. I know there's a bit of luck involved. But we had so much luck go our way to put us in a position to win the B1G outright and to win the tournament this year. And they didn't get it done. I don't know how much better position they could have been in. It really starts to make me question whether he has the the fire and desire to win championships. And again, go ahead and beat me down...
I’m just curious. Why do you think this team is so special? We have one guard who is second team all BIG, but is very young. We have a center who is HM. I mean really, this team presents some difficult match up problems for opponents, but there are ways other teams can negate them. There are teams in this tournament with top ten guards and top ten forwards. Now those teams might be considered “special”, but this Purdue has to work for every win.
I think fans who pay attention to only their team over estimate how good their own players are. They are often shocked when we meet another team with a Johnny Davis, or Curbelo. I’m not saying you adjust your expectations, just keep some perspective about this game. Truth? The baby boilers with a healthy Hummel would blow this current team out of the arena. In a couple more years we might have another team that good.
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With the exception of maybe the baby boilers, this is the best combination of talent and depth Painter has ever had. The baby boilers didn't have anywhere close to the depth this team has. And unfortunately, Hummel wasn't healthy, so that's a mute point. Personally,. I don't see any way they would blow out this team. There was no real depth behind Johnson. And the combination of Tre and Edey would dominate him. As good as Etwaun was, he's no Ivey from an athletic perspective. Scott Martin wasn't around long enough to matter...I’m just curious. Why do you think this team is so special? We have one guard who is second team all BIG, but is very young. We have a center who is HM. I mean really, this team presents some difficult match up problems for opponents, but there are ways other teams can negate them. There are teams in this tournament with top ten guards and top ten forwards. Now those teams might be considered “special”, but this Purdue has to work for every win.
I think fans who pay attention to only their team over estimate how good their own players are. They are often shocked when we meet another team with a Johnny Davis, or Curbelo. I’m not saying you adjust your expectations, just keep some perspective about this game. Truth? The baby boilers with a healthy Hummel would blow this current team out of the arena. In a couple more years we might have another team that good.
If this team controlled turnovers, its special. There's a reason they went undefeated in the out of conf season and were ranked in the top 10 all year. Not sure what you're talking about. Every team has to work for wins.
I think what you’re failing to take into account is that Painters recruiting has been trending up (and he’s getting better as a coach with experience).
Even if we got the exact same amount of talent on future teams as we have this year, his odds of making it with one of them is higher with multiple shots. But I think we will have more talent some years in the future.
I think there will be ebb and flow every few years but I would say we will generally have more of a shot every year Painter coaches.
I think you're also missing the point that we had multiple opportunities to win the B1G regular season championship. Wisconsin and Illinois literally did everything but hand it to Purdue, and they couldn't get it done. I just am not seeing that fire to do absolutely everything it takes to be prepared and ready to win games. Its not like other teams just outplayed us in losses. We continued to make the same mistakes over and over again, every game. And nothing changed.. We continued to give the same guys 35 min per game, regardless of their performance. Nothing changed.
Look, Painter is a very good basketball coach. I wouldn't change anything about him being at Purdue. So don't take this as I'm on a fire Painter rant. But sooner or later, if he wants to be considered a great coach, he's gonna have to prove it in March. Because that's the difference between good and great, regardless of what some here believe.
Same with respect to close second...I just want to see them play for a National Championship...no idea if it will ever happen, as, it seems a lot like that desperate chase that the Cubs had for so long, and admittedly, I never thought that I would see that...and I am incredibly thankful that I did.
I got to see Purdue in a Rose Bowl...saw the Bears win a Super Bowl...saw the Colts win a Super Bowl...saw the Bulls win multiple times...saw the Pacers in a NBA Finals...Cubs as I said...Blackhawks...so I have been fortunate admittedly...I watched Purdue in '80, but, I was too young to really appreciate it, and, never would have imagined that they would never get back.
I am surprised that they have THAT many plays, admittedly...again, more so in that they were a motion-based offense in large part, and, in that they just seem to run a lot of the same stuff....but, again, some of that is a product of who they have.
I will say, that with this group in particular...where focus and concentration have been identified as an issue...not sure that it is ideal to have so much, but again, maybe they have those things available but just use a portion of it.
I know when I was at a practice earlier this year that they introduced a new inbounds play from under their bucket...literally, they have run said play one time...so, that kind of goes to the point that said play exists...but, it is not something that they have used or gone to more than literally one time that I can remember.
Not sure if you're following, but recruiting is just getting stronger. I doubt this is the best it gets.
I agree recruiting is definitely getting stronger. I just hope this current team can reach its true potential...
If they were to break through and have some success in March on the national stage, it would only get even stronger...and more consistent.
I've watched him several times this year on the sidelines. Been to 2 games this year as well. He does not seem to have the fire and passion like years past. Not sure what the deal is. He used to always be yelling and screaming. Walking the sideline. Really getting after the refs. He just doesn't seem to have the passion this year. Maybe it's just me or maybe others have noticed it as well.
If we don't have success in March recruiting will not keep getting stronger.
Understand your point, and don't disagree with it completely.
I would love to see this team go on a run and get to a FF. Reality is, people will still say the same thing: if Painter doesn't win a NC, recruiting will not keep getting stronger.
People keep complaining about a lack of success in March, yet recruiting keeps getting stronger.
I have no crystal ball, however I do know Painter is regarded as one of the nation's top coaches, a quality guy running a quality program, one of the best programs, and a top environment in which to play.
If he doesn't win a NC people are still going to use the same cudgels.
