Purdue's Offense Plus & Minus

[mathboy]

When you have a dominant post player like Edey, there is only one defense that can stop the team. You put 2-3 defenders around him and pray the rest of the team can't hit open mid-range and 3-pt shots. Penn State tried it and Gillis went off for 29. End of Penn State. The kryptonite of this post game is when ALL the shooters fail and get the yips. We had enough open shots that had we hit even 35% of them, we would have run FD out of the gym. However, that is exactly what did not happened during our last game. The issue here is why did we stop shooting from the outside?

When our shooters are on, like Cline and Edwards a few years back, the post centric offense is almost impossible to stop, even with better faster athletes. This is true only if the shooters are hitting. That's why Painter recruits them. He is running one of the most effective and efficient offenses in college ball. It is in reality a far better offense than small-ball, isolation basketball that some of you think might work better. The statistics bear this out. Remember, all offensive and defensive schemes have a counter, a kryptonite, but Painter's post centric offense is one of the hardest to beat.

Those double digit seeds have to sell out entirely on doubling and tripling the center to have a prayer of winning. So why does our 3-pt shooting start to fail at the end of the year? Why do we come out flat in these important games? All this nonsense about better recruiting, too stubborn, zone defense really just boils down to: Why don't we shoot better at the end of the year? Solve that one and we are in good shape.

 

[krazychicagod]

We did not have a post centric offense with edwards and cline. We ran a high PnR with Haarms and let edwards create. This made teams have to guard all parts of the court from a pull up 3 off a screen to a drive to the hoop and kickout 3s.

Back to basket centric offense does NOT WORK in todays basketball. Doesnt even work at the NBA level

 

[MetMyWifeAtHarrys]

I've said this before: these kids are usually dynamic players in HS, but when they get to campus, CMP reforms them into a passive, static player...a company man. They over think their 'role' and when we take a bad L, its due to the deer in headlights mental mode that has been pounded into them. So really, the type of offense is irrelevant come March.

 

[boiler-deuce]

We did not have a post centric offense with edwards and cline. We ran a high PnR with Haarms and let edwards create. This made teams have to guard all parts of the court from a pull up 3 off a screen to a drive to the hoop and kickout 3s.

Back to basket centric offense does NOT WORK in todays basketball. Doesnt even work at the NBA level

100% true. These apologists make this silliness up and act like we didn't watch any games. So deluded they can't even handle the truth. The truth is some gamble didn't send us packing to a play in team. It was a calculated NATIONALLY PREDICTED BY THE OPPOSING COACH. It's one thing to talk smack. But, to go out and literally say what you would do, and then go do it, is quite another. That is the definition of disrespect and confidence. And, to be so out of touch with reality and claim that this offense is so "efficient" is embarrassing to think we're that dumb to buy it. We're not that naive. Living and dying by the 3 point shot, isn't Earth shattering nor efficient. It smacks of being single minded and devolving. "Hey, this is what we do.......deny us that and it is what it is, no worries". He can just tell more one liners to Doyel next year in a hallway because he's so un-serious. Clearly, there is no urgency, no pressure and no accountability. He can do anything he want's put any product on the court and his Trump-style supporters will defend any outcome.

 

[Wolegib]

When you have an all American with a tremendous mismatch, you give him the ball and let him create and you ride him to the destination! Rather than taking 3 pointers, we should have fed the guy and fouled out their team

 

[TopSecretBoiler]

We did not have a post centric offense with edwards and cline. We ran a high PnR with Haarms and let edwards create. This made teams have to guard all parts of the court from a pull up 3 off a screen to a drive to the hoop and kickout 3s.

Back to basket centric offense does NOT WORK in todays basketball. Doesnt even work at the NBA level

Cline and Edwards were older. We always knew the freshman guards were a gamble. They were great most of the year, above any reasonable expectations. Just bit us at the worst time possible and none of the other guys picked up the slack. Gillis, Morton, Newman, Jenkins? What about those guys? We lost games when Carsen played poorly too.

 

[Poprudy]

When you have a dominant post player like Edey, there is only one defense that can stop the team. You put 2-3 defenders around him and pray the rest of the team can't hit open mid-range and 3-pt shots. Penn State tried it and Gillis went off for 29. End of Penn State. The kryptonite of this post game is when ALL the shooters fail and get the yips. We had enough open shots that had we hit even 35% of them, we would have run FD out of the gym. However, that is exactly what did not happened during our last game. The issue here is why did we stop shooting from the outside?

When our shooters are on, like Cline and Edwards a few years back, the post centric offense is almost impossible to stop, even with better faster athletes. This is true only if the shooters are hitting. That's why Painter recruits them. He is running one of the most effective and efficient offenses in college ball. It is in reality a far better offense than small-ball, isolation basketball that some of you think might work better. The statistics bear this out. Remember, all offensive and defensive schemes have a counter, a kryptonite, but Painter's post centric offense is one of the hardest to beat.

Those double digit seeds have to sell out entirely on doubling and tripling the center to have a prayer of winning. So why does our 3-pt shooting start to fail at the end of the year? Why do we come out flat in these important games? All this nonsense about better recruiting, too stubborn, zone defense really just boils down to: Why don't we shoot better at the end of the year? Solve that one and we are in good shape.

The efficiency is very true, but to stop it.... isn't. You're proving yourself wrong with how we perform in the tournament and what style beats us, repeatedly.

It's pretty simple. Get longer, athletic, tough guards and wings that disrupt their offense where Zach doesn't have to drag out so high. On offense, run some ISO's for those players where Zach and Furst can benefit.

 

[BoilerDeac]

When you have a dominant post player like Edey, there is only one defense that can stop the team. You put 2-3 defenders around him and pray the rest of the team can't hit open mid-range and 3-pt shots. Penn State tried it and Gillis went off for 29. End of Penn State. The kryptonite of this post game is when ALL the shooters fail and get the yips. We had enough open shots that had we hit even 35% of them, we would have run FD out of the gym. However, that is exactly what did not happened during our last game. The issue here is why did we stop shooting from the outside?

When our shooters are on, like Cline and Edwards a few years back, the post centric offense is almost impossible to stop, even with better faster athletes. This is true only if the shooters are hitting. That's why Painter recruits them. He is running one of the most effective and efficient offenses in college ball. It is in reality a far better offense than small-ball, isolation basketball that some of you think might work better. The statistics bear this out. Remember, all offensive and defensive schemes have a counter, a kryptonite, but Painter's post centric offense is one of the hardest to beat.

Those double digit seeds have to sell out entirely on doubling and tripling the center to have a prayer of winning. So why does our 3-pt shooting start to fail at the end of the year? Why do we come out flat in these important games? All this nonsense about better recruiting, too stubborn, zone defense really just boils down to: Why don't we shoot better at the end of the year? Solve that one and we are in good shape.

The Cline and Carsen offense WAS NOT a post-centric offense.

Haarms was not a traditional post big man. We need more like him.

 

[jdbrees922]

Great most of the year ? Try mediocre

 

[Poprudy]

Cline and Edwards were older. We always knew the freshman guards were a gamble. They were great most of the year, above any reasonable expectations. Just bit us at the worst time possible and none of the other guys picked up the slack. Gillis, Morton, Newman, Jenkins? What about those guys? We lost games when Carsen played poorly too.

Yes, Morton, Newman and Jenkins brought nothing to the table this game and were repeatedly beating on defense. Let the 2 move on and take a different approach to recruiting that position.

 

[krazychicagod]

100% true. These apologists make this silliness up and act like we didn't watch any games. So deluded they can't even handle the truth. The truth is some gamble didn't send us packing to a play in team. It was a calculated NATIONALLY PREDICTED BY THE OPPOSING COACH. It's one thing to talk smack. But, to go out and literally say what you would do, and then go do it, is quite another. That is the definition of disrespect and confidence. And, to be so out of touch with reality and claim that this offense is so "efficient" is embarrassing to think we're that dumb to buy it. We're not that naive. Living and dying by the 3 point shot, isn't Earth shattering nor efficient. It smacks of being single minded and devolving. "Hey, this is what we do.......deny us that and it is what it is, no worries". He can just tell more one liners to Doyel next year in a hallway because he's so un-serious. Clearly, there is no urgency, no pressure and no accountability. He can do anything he want's put any product on the court and his Trump-style supporters will defend any outcome.

There do seem to be a lot of cult like painter followers

 

[krazychicagod]

Cline and Edwards were older. We always knew the freshman guards were a gamble. They were great most of the year, above any reasonable expectations. Just bit us at the worst time possible and none of the other guys picked up the slack. Gillis, Morton, Newman, Jenkins? What about those guys? We lost games when Carsen played poorly too.

But when a team packs the paint and closes any drive lanes down on top of any post game, your ONLY option is shooting 3s where you are so wide open that it messes with you. Then guys miss a few and now pass them up.

This style does NOT work. Tell me the last college team that won a title with the number 1 2 and 3 option was a 7 footer with his back to the basket.

Hell when was the last nba team that won this way?

What I cant figure out is how big ten teams havent figured it out as much as these mid majors.

 

[pubill]

But when a team packs the paint and closes any drive lanes down on top of any post game, your ONLY option is shooting 3s where you are so wide open that it messes with you. Then guys miss a few and now pass them up.

This style does NOT work. Tell me the last college team that won a title with the number 1 2 and 3 option was a 7 footer with his back to the basket.

Hell when was the last nba team that won this way?

What I cant figure out is how big ten teams havent figured it out as much as these mid majors.

So an offense that gets you wide open 3's is a bad offense. You guys crack me up.

 

[krazychicagod]

So an offense that gets you wide open 3's is a bad offense. You guys crack me up.

Arguing against our history and 3 strait years of trash and more the further you go back and you want to act like the one who knows better

Incredible

 

[pubill]

Arguing against our history and 3 strait years of trash and more the further you go back and you want to act like the one who knows better

Incredible

What is incredible is that you said an offense that generates wide open 3's does not work and won't win. Huh? And I like George Stait and his years.

 

[titaniumbolt]

So an offense that gets you wide open 3's is a bad offense. You guys crack me up.

We only got wide open 3s because the opponent had zero respect for our terrible guards.

 

[Ashaath2016]

We did not have a post centric offense with edwards and cline. We ran a high PnR with Haarms and let edwards create. This made teams have to guard all parts of the court from a pull up 3 off a screen to a drive to the hoop and kickout 3s.

Back to basket centric offense does NOT WORK in todays basketball. Doesnt even work at the NBA level

Do we have carsen edwards on the team this year? We had that with Jaden Ivey and still lost. Mainly hit shots and win. Dont hit shots lose

 

[depthcharge623]

I think the problem is that three point shooting is by nature very streaky. Guys slump, and when that happens its hard to score. You’d like to be able to have a third option. Edey is #1, 3pt shooting is #2.

So they take away Edey and our shooters aren’t hitting so what do you do? I would think have your guys drive or take some mid range shots. But the drive isn’t really open with a traditional big and his defender clogging the paint. Even less so when they are packing the paint with multiple defenders to shut down Edey.

 

[PurdueDave]

I think the problem is that three point shooting is by nature very streaky. Guys slump, and when that happens its hard to score. You’d like to be able to have a third option. Edey is #1, 3pt shooting is #2.

So they take away Edey and our shooters aren’t hitting so what do you do? I would think have your guys drive or take some mid range shots. But the drive isn’t really open with a traditional big and his defender clogging the paint. Even less so when they are packing the paint with multiple defenders to shut down Edey.

In that scenario, the mid range should be wide open as they double and triple Zach. Why we don't drive and take more midrange jumpers is beyond me.

 

[Bleedinggoldandblack]

When you have a dominant post player like Edey, there is only one defense that can stop the team. You put 2-3 defenders around him and pray the rest of the team can't hit open mid-range and 3-pt shots. Penn State tried it and Gillis went off for 29. End of Penn State. The kryptonite of this post game is when ALL the shooters fail and get the yips. We had enough open shots that had we hit even 35% of them, we would have run FD out of the gym. However, that is exactly what did not happened during our last game. The issue here is why did we stop shooting from the outside?

When our shooters are on, like Cline and Edwards a few years back, the post centric offense is almost impossible to stop, even with better faster athletes. This is true only if the shooters are hitting. That's why Painter recruits them. He is running one of the most effective and efficient offenses in college ball. It is in reality a far better offense than small-ball, isolation basketball that some of you think might work better. The statistics bear this out. Remember, all offensive and defensive schemes have a counter, a kryptonite, but Painter's post centric offense is one of the hardest to beat.

Those double digit seeds have to sell out entirely on doubling and tripling the center to have a prayer of winning. So why does our 3-pt shooting start to fail at the end of the year? Why do we come out flat in these important games? All this nonsense about better recruiting, too stubborn, zone defense really just boils down to: Why don't we shoot better at the end of the year? Solve that one and we are in good shape.

Agree, 1) mental fatigue you could see it on the freshman faces 2) tired physically too, need some mental and strength building endurance = no tired shots - to me 3's are strength, mental - confidence-technique....if your running empty on those , they ain't gonna happen and your game plan with Edey is tanked. CMP knew this I believe.

 

[boiler-deuce]

In that scenario, the mid range should be wide open as they double and triple Zach. Why we don't drive and take more midrange jumpers is beyond me.

THIS!! How in the world did we find a coach that can't design any offense other than Edey or 3 pointers? Struggle to get the ball across to break a press........run a robotic, predictable and exhausting weave at the top and then either Edey or a 3 is the only choice because of the modern day shot clock has little time left on it? That worked when you had to get out a ladder and retrieve the ball from the peach basket after each score. LOL.

 

[PurdueDave]

THIS!! How in the world did we find a coach that can't design any offense other than Edey or 3 pointers? Struggle to get the ball across to break a press........run a robotic, predictable and exhausting weave at the top and then either Edey or a 3 is the only choice because of the modern day shot clock has little time left on it? That worked when you had to get out a ladder and retrieve the ball from the peach basket after each score. LOL.

To be fair, almost everyone runs the silly weave at the top. Also, as a player, you know you can make 3s, so driving to take a midrange jumper just isn't something a lot of guys do. Maybe it's because none of them played in the days before the 3 pointer. I used to practice elbow jumpers till the cows came home. Today, it's 3 or bust.

 

[depthcharge623]

THIS!! How in the world did we find a coach that can't design any offense other than Edey or 3 pointers? Struggle to get the ball across to break a press........run a robotic, predictable and exhausting weave at the top and then either Edey or a 3 is the only choice because of the modern day shot clock has little time left on it? That worked when you had to get out a ladder and retrieve the ball from the peach basket after each score. LOL.

It’s almost like he’s too hung up on metrics. Long 2s are statistically the worst shot, so he says Ok let’s not take those. Which in many cases is wise. But his “process first” mentality seems to say we need to stick with that no matter how the game is going.

Real life must be lived and decisions must be made. In Greek philosophy/ethics there is a word φρωνεσις which translates roughly to “practical wisdom.” In the moment you need to be able to make a wise decision based on experience and not just metrics.

 

[boiler-deuce]

To be fair, almost everyone runs the silly weave at the top. Also, as a player, you know you can make 3s, so driving to take a midrange jumper just isn't something a lot of guys do. Maybe it's because none of them played in the days before the 3 pointer. I used to practice elbow jumpers till the cows came home. Today, it's 3 or bust.

Ok, but is running that weave wise after the struggle getting the ball up and the clock running? At some point, you need to decide we don't have time for that. We didn't have that luxury. What good is running the weave and then having 6 -10 seconds to figure something out?

 

[depthcharge623]

To follow up on my last post on “practical wisdom,” I think there is a trend in football that teams are going for more 2pt conversions because the metrics say its better. In general, great. If the metrics say it you should do it.

But if a team fails to convert on 3-4 attempts then there’s obviously something wrong and coach needs to just say “lets take the points we know we can get” and got for 1. That’s an in game coaching decision that relies on wisdom and experience instead of metrics.

 

[krazychicagod]

What is incredible is that you said an offense that generates wide open 3's does not work and won't win. Huh? And I like George Stait and his years.

In painters history has it won anything of note in the tourney? NOPE

The 1 year we ran a modern offense we were a late clock start from the final 4

Go away painter cultist

 

[krazychicagod]

Do we have carsen edwards on the team this year? We had that with Jaden Ivey and still lost. Mainly hit shots and win. Dont hit shots lose

Ivey had a post player stuck in the paint at all times and both were awful defenders in the high PnR.

HORRIBLE comparison to the edwards team which again shows how little my fellow average purdue fans understand about basketball.

There is NOTHING you can point to that says you are right. But all of us fed up have nothing but example after example of it not working when it matters.

 

[mathboy]

We did not have a post centric offense with edwards and cline. We ran a high PnR with Haarms and let edwards create. This made teams have to guard all parts of the court from a pull up 3 off a screen to a drive to the hoop and kickout 3s.

Back to basket centric offense does NOT WORK in todays basketball. Doesnt even work at the NBA level

Could have swornBig Cat was on that team along with Haarms, but what’s a few wrong facts got to do with your rant?

 

[Boiler8285]

So an offense that gets you wide open 3's is a bad offense. You guys crack me up.

It's a bad offense if you have lousy shooters which the season long statistics demonstrate. Don't forget all the close Big10 games we squeaked out of with this potent offense.

 

[Boiler8285]

We only got wide open 3s because the opponent had zero respect for our terrible guards.

The announcers where even stunned that FDU didn't even bother guarding Furst. It was laughable.

 

[Indy2Jax]

We did not have a post centric offense with edwards and cline. We ran a high PnR with Haarms and let edwards create. This made teams have to guard all parts of the court from a pull up 3 off a screen to a drive to the hoop and kickout 3s.

Back to basket centric offense does NOT WORK in todays basketball. Doesnt even work at the NBA level

The is silly. There were so many open shots for guys. The offense isn’t the issue.

 

[krazychicagod]

Could have swornBig Cat was on that team along with Haarms, but what’s a few wrong facts got to do with your rant?

We will never go far in March with a back to basket post player centered offense.

The 1 time we went far was with haarms at center and an elite guard and shooter

 

[krazychicagod]

The is silly. There were so many open shots for guys. The offense isn’t the issue.

L
M
F
A
O
Cultist

 

[pubill]

In painters history has it won anything of note in the tourney? NOPE

The 1 year we ran a modern offense we were a late clock start from the final 4

Go away painter cultist

I believe if we had guards and forwards that could hit 3's at a 35% rate with Edey Matt would win a Natty. Open 3's that should be easy.

 

[pubill]

The is silly. There were so many open shots for guys. The offense isn’t the issue.

I agree, issue is we need a defensive plan to handle the 5 out quick style offense. Matt has to evolve here.

 

[krazychicagod]

I believe if we had guards and forwards that could hit 3's at a 35% rate with Edey Matt would win a Natty. Open 3's that should be easy.

I believe if we had a championship team we woulf win a championship.

Wow great! You have it all figured out genius!

 

[pubill]

L
M
F
A
O
Cultist

You were talking of Strait earlier, I am a cultist of him.

 

[pubill]

I believe if we had a championship team we woulf win a championship.

Wow great! You have it all figured out genius!

you are the one that can't spell straight.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

There do seem to be a lot of cult like painter followers

Nah. Just level headed folks who realize that Painter will be our coach next year, like it or not.

 

[mathboy]

So many psycho posters and Nasty nasty takes. Posters who I’ve never seen post before are telling all about their expertise. Most can’t recall which players were on which teams. So funny.