Poor Strategy

[qazplm]

So, we have three republican candidates struggling to take down Trump before it is too late.

Rubio has taken the mini-Trump route in an attempt to "out-Trump" Trump with personal attacks and substantive attacks. It doesn't appear to have worked.

Cruz has taken the substantive attack route only. I actually think this will end up having the most success for him. His problem is everyone on all sides finds him so odious and unlikeable that he cannot fully take advantage of it.

Kasich has taken the "I'm just going to hang here til the end, and hope there is a brokered convention and you guys settle on me" approach. It's the only approach he has, so I think it's smart...but it's like being the least attractive guy at party and staying there all night in hopes that the girl you are hoping picks you runs out of every other option and is left with no choice.

What really perplexes me is that at least wrt to Cruz and Rubio, they are more than willing to go after Trump, but not at all willing to say they would not nevertheless support him in the GE. You completely eviscerate your attacks on him if you continually pledge you will ultimately support him as the nominee.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

What really perplexes me is that at least wrt to Cruz and Rubio, they are more than willing to go after Trump, but not at all willing to say they would not nevertheless support him in the GE. You completely eviscerate your attacks on him if you continually pledge you will ultimately support him as the nominee.

Yeah, this was dumb. But I think the party in general doesn't think he's going to be the nominee one way or another, so ultimately they can say whatever they want to honor the agreement. I agree that it takes a bite out of their attacks to say that.

I disagree that Rubio's tactics didn't work, though it's tough to prove it for certain. I'd just say that no one expected Rubio to even win a state on Super Tuesday, but he did albeit a "minor" one. Hell, CNN was practically cheering against him, including the ironically funny interview where their ticker was flashing 80% of the precincts reporting a pretty big lead in Minnesota while they were asking him about why he was still in when he hadn't won a state yet. He was polling well behind Trump in Virginia, but ultimately left that state with nearly as many delegates closing almost 10% in less than a week after his tack shifted.

Now, his tactics completely turned me off to the point that if California primaries were today, I'd prefer to vote for Kasich, but I don't think he's trying to appeal to me. He trying to winnow the support for Trump, and it worked in a couple of instances with a larger portion of more educated voters, specifically some of the northern states. Rubio's strength should, theoretically, be coming whereas Cruz has already pretty much had his opportunities to shine in the South with mixed results.

Cruz is trying to do what Rubio was trying to do before - not get down in the filth for the most part and stick to issues, and we see where that got Marco. Kasich is a dead man walking for all intents and purposes.

The party as a whole is going to F this thing away. They're trying to get voters to recognize the most likely candidate in each state who can defeat Trump in the various primaries, but voters aren't paying close enough attention to that, so there's no way they're going to get Florida to swing Rubio, Ohio to swing Kasich, etc., consistently enough to prevent Trump from winning 1237 delegates.

I agree that overall the Party strategy is bafflingly stupid.

 

[qazplm]

Yeah, this was dumb. But I think the party in general doesn't think he's going to be the nominee one way or another, so ultimately they can say whatever they want to honor the agreement. I agree that it takes a bite out of their attacks to say that.

I disagree that Rubio's tactics didn't work, though it's tough to prove it for certain. I'd just say that no one expected Rubio to even win a state on Super Tuesday, but he did albeit a "minor" one. Hell, CNN was practically cheering against him, including the ironically funny interview where their ticker was flashing 80% of the precincts reporting a pretty big lead in Minnesota while they were asking him about why he was still in when he hadn't won a state yet. He was polling well behind Trump in Virginia, but ultimately left that state with nearly as many delegates closing almost 10% in less than a week after his tack shifted.

Now, his tactics completely turned me off to the point that if California primaries were today, I'd prefer to vote for Kasich, but I don't think he's trying to appeal to me. He trying to winnow the support for Trump, and it worked in a couple of instances with a larger portion of more educated voters, specifically some of the northern states. Rubio's strength should, theoretically, be coming whereas Cruz has already pretty much had his opportunities to shine in the South with mixed results.

Cruz is trying to do what Rubio was trying to do before - not get down in the filth for the most part and stick to issues, and we see where that got Marco. Kasich is a dead man walking for all intents and purposes.

The party as a whole is going to F this thing away. They're trying to get voters to recognize the most likely candidate in each state who can defeat Trump in the various primaries, but voters aren't paying close enough attention to that, so there's no way they're going to get Florida to swing Rubio, Ohio to swing Kasich, etc., consistently enough to prevent Trump from winning 1237 delegates.

I agree that overall the Party strategy is bafflingly stupid.

I think Rubio's strategy isn't working for a couple of reasons:

1. We have the reports that Fox is "pulling the plug" on supporting/propping him up. That tells me they don't think this is working.

2. Tied to that is that the media is more or less not cheering him on (particularly Fox News who you would think would be) but instead asking him questions about hypocrisy and effectively making him pay the price for getting down in the mud they refuse to make Trump pay. It's probably objectively unfair, but there it is.

Whether it SHOULD be working is a different story I suppose. I personally think Cruz's strategy is objectively better, more effective but the messenger can't pull it off. I think Rubio should be adopting Cruz's tact personally. I also think Kasich is missing an opportunity to be the much more likeable guy with a better resume who adopts Cruz's tactic, but instead weirdly refuses to go after Trump much at all.

I concur with you denial isn't just a river in Egypt so they think they can say "I will support the eventual nominee" while winking and hoping "you guys know I don't mean Trump right?" But all voters hear is, Trump must not be that bad because they all say they would support him.

I will say this for the Republican's possible good fortune: the deadlines to file for an independent run in many states are earlier than the convention is, in some cases May IIRC. So if the brokered convention happens, and Trump didn't do his prepwork/groundwork, any threats to run third party might be empty ones, or at least somewhat reduced.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

Rubio went from not attacking Trump at all, sticking to issues and coherent statements yet being accused of being robotic (and rightly so in a lot of instances), directly into this down in the muck crap. There was no intermediate step to what Cruz seems to be doing, attacking Trump's reputation, character, and policies without going into hands and penis size. Yeah, it's embarrassing as a Rubio supporter, and why I said I'd probably go with Kasich in the primary if forced to vote today. That said, I will vote for whomever I think is most likely to beat Trump here in California, even if it means Cruz. Cruz would be less disastrous for the country, but equally divisive IMO, so I'd still vote Hillary over him. It's upsetting to think that we won't have a candidate out there that I feel good about in the GE, and I say that with all of those online "quizzes" now saying I should support either Trump or Hillary (with Kasich and Rubio close behind).

You'd think I'd be happy about a Trump v. Hillary runoff... but let's be honest here, no Democratic candidate is ever likely to excite me.

 

[qazplm]

Rubio went from not attacking Trump at all, sticking to issues and coherent statements yet being accused of being robotic (and rightly so in a lot of instances), directly into this down in the muck crap. There was no intermediate step to what Cruz seems to be doing, attacking Trump's reputation, character, and policies without going into hands and penis size. Yeah, it's embarrassing as a Rubio supporter, and why I said I'd probably go with Kasich in the primary if forced to vote today. That said, I will vote for whomever I think is most likely to beat Trump here in California, even if it means Cruz. Cruz would be less disastrous for the country, but equally divisive IMO, so I'd still vote Hillary over him. It's upsetting to think that we won't have a candidate out there that I feel good about in the GE, and I say that with all of those online "quizzes" now saying I should support either Trump or Hillary (with Kasich and Rubio close behind).

You'd think I'd be happy about a Trump v. Hillary runoff... but let's be honest here, no Democratic candidate is ever likely to excite me.

eh those quizzes are mostly useless IMO. I know someone who did one and it said she was like 5% different between most of the candidates from Trump to Hillary to Sanders to I believe Cruz.

I don't know why Rubio stopped what he was doing. Maybe he wasn't patient enough, but it was a bad call. He did look like he was enjoying himself though.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

eh those quizzes are mostly useless IMO. I know someone who did one and it said she was like 5% different between most of the candidates from Trump to Hillary to Sanders to I believe Cruz.

I don't know why Rubio stopped what he was doing. Maybe he wasn't patient enough, but it was a bad call. He did look like he was enjoying himself though.

I think he's the Party mouthpiece for tearing Trump down. Cruz won't play ball. Kasich knows it's his last shot. Rubio's young so he could have other opportunities and just blame his behavior on Trump down the road. I'd buy it, actually, because he and Kasich together had by far the most substance in the clown car (IMO) along with Jeb.

If there's one thing we should all learn from this Republican cycle (and to a lesser extent the Sanders "revolution"), it's that you and I don't represent the bulk of the voter base in this country, regardless of party or ideological affiliation. When you hear people cheering the "little Marco" statements and then booing Rubio's comebacks that are actually targeting Trump's fraudulent business behaviors... yeah... they're not speaking my language.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

Re: the Isidewith and CNN quizzes, one thing they've all been consistent on: Sanders is last for me, followed closely by Carson and Cruz. While I like Carson as a person, I couldn't have supported him as a candidate. I just plain don't like Cruz. And Sanders is a socialist, Democratic or otherwise, and that's never going to fly with me. So I'd agree they're of little value once you get into nuanced stances, but they can shave off 50% of the candidates pretty accurately, IMO.

 

[qazplm]

I think he's the Party mouthpiece for tearing Trump down. Cruz won't play ball. Kasich knows it's his last shot. Rubio's young so he could have other opportunities and just blame his behavior on Trump down the road. I'd buy it, actually, because he and Kasich together had by far the most substance in the clown car (IMO) along with Jeb.

If there's one thing we should all learn from this Republican cycle (and to a lesser extent the Sanders "revolution"), it's that you and I don't represent the bulk of the voter base in this country, regardless of party or ideological affiliation. When you hear people cheering the "little Marco" statements and then booing Rubio's comebacks that are actually targeting Trump's fraudulent business behaviors... yeah... they're not speaking my language.

Eh, I don't know about that last bit. Clinton is winning, so on the Dem side I feel like I represent the Dem voter base well enough. I was for Obama last time, and for Clinton this time. I don't even know that you don't represent part of the republican voter base, it's just that while on the Dem side we have a bit of a squabble, on your side it's open warfare. Your insurgents outnumber our insurgents but at best it's still only 50-50 on your side, and more like 55-45 or 60-40 on ours (probably that five is dislike of Hillary by the far left with a blinding hot passion).

 

[Purdue97]

So, we have three republican candidates struggling to take down Trump before it is too late.

Rubio has taken the mini-Trump route in an attempt to "out-Trump" Trump with personal attacks and substantive attacks. It doesn't appear to have worked.

Cruz has taken the substantive attack route only. I actually think this will end up having the most success for him. His problem is everyone on all sides finds him so odious and unlikeable that he cannot fully take advantage of it.

Kasich has taken the "I'm just going to hang here til the end, and hope there is a brokered convention and you guys settle on me" approach. It's the only approach he has, so I think it's smart...but it's like being the least attractive guy at party and staying there all night in hopes that the girl you are hoping picks you runs out of every other option and is left with no choice.

What really perplexes me is that at least wrt to Cruz and Rubio, they are more than willing to go after Trump, but not at all willing to say they would not nevertheless support him in the GE. You completely eviscerate your attacks on him if you continually pledge you will ultimately support him as the nominee.

-Rubio was a tea party darling back in 2012 for awhile, then went went to DC and proposed the immigration reform. I do not disagree with the legislation that had pathway to legal status, but for him it was a disaster. He basically eroded his own base. Not winning a primary doing that.

-I think Kasich and Rubio, for the most part, forgot that they had to win a primary before running in the GE. These two likely win a GE, polls show them doing very well vs Clinton or Sanders. That said, their strategy of talking substantive issues, policy, and being polite simply will not win a primary in a crowded field. Rubio's change to attack mode was way to little way to late.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

That said, their strategy of talking substantive issues, policy, and being polite simply will not win a primary in a crowded field. Rubio's change to attack mode was way to little way to late.

Rubio's change to attack mode lost a good portion of the base he actually had. The issue for both Rubio and Kasich was Kasich and Rubio.

 

[MJ-79Boiler]

Got a question for you guys, since immigration is a big problem for all of us.

I personally think it will be extremely difficult and costly to round up all illegals but they can't be allowed to skirt the law, so . . with that in mind:

What if we offered the following:

- Come out of the shadows, pay your taxes and provide "Service" to your country to earn your citizenship. (ie Armed forces, USO, National guard, etc..)

In my mind, anyone giving 6 years to this country like is an American - what do you think ?

 

[qazplm]

Got a question for you guys, since immigration is a big problem for all of us.

I personally think it will be extremely difficult and costly to round up all illegals but they can't be allowed to skirt the law, so . . with that in mind:

What if we offered the following:

- Come out of the shadows, pay your taxes and provide "Service" to your country to earn your citizenship. (ie Armed forces, USO, National guard, etc..)

In my mind, anyone giving 6 years to this country like is an American - what do you think ?

You don't think that picking veggies and fruits and much of our food for well under the minimum wage which leads to significantly cheaper food for all of us than it would be otherwise counts as "service" to America?

If we really cared about skirting the law, there'd be an easy solution to immigration. Go hard at employers. Make it so that no one would dare higher an illegal immigrant for fear of swift and expensive justice. There would be no jobs, and thus no reason for undocumented workers to be here. But we don't want to do that. Because we like our cheap milk, our cheap veggies, our cheap fruit, our cheap construction labor. These are the jobs we can't easily export to third world countries with standards of living that allow dollar wages.

My point is this ain't a one issue situation (immigrants are illegal, they go home, everything here is great). There are cons AND pros to undocumented workers.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

Pass. If they can't speak English, they shouldn't serve in that way. And qaz is right, many of them are doing jobs we don't want to do at much less wage providing cheaper whatever.

 

[Purdue97]

Rubio's change to attack mode lost a good portion of the base he actually had. The issue for both Rubio and Kasich was Kasich and Rubio.

Not disagreeing that Rubio and Kasich stole votes from each other. That said, Rubio was a tea party darling in 2012, got to DC, and eroded his own base through his own record. Politics 101-do not do that if one wants a higher office or re election.

And this 3-2-1 strategy he had, with the way Super Tuesday is now scheduled was just dumb. Need to get out early and be aggressive as primaries are largely over before you know it.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

Not disagreeing that Rubio and Kasich stole votes from each other. That said, Rubio was a tea party darling in 2012, got to DC, and eroded his own base through his own record. Politics 101-do not do that if one wants a higher office or re election.

And this 3-2-1 strategy he had, with the way Super Tuesday is now scheduled was just dumb. Need to get out early and be aggressive as primaries are largely over before you know it.

The irony is that many tea-party Rubio voters in Florida are now supporting Trump, who is nearly guaranteed to "erode his own base through his record". His record is that of a moderate conservative, at best, or even a Democrat, at worst, in terms of who he has supported in the past and his previously stated views before he was trying to win a base.

It's that irony that I'm trying to point out to a few in another thread - they think moderate, establishment voters are gullible sheep, yet they are being shepherded by someone who is blatantly lying to them to gain their votes. When he's caught in those lies, he says, "Well, you have to be flexible...", which is exactly why they're pissed at Rubio now.

There is no logical reason to vote for Trump. It's about emotion, which is always the best reason to make important decisions (DWS).

 

[Purdue97]

The irony is that many tea-party Rubio voters in Florida are now supporting Trump, who is nearly guaranteed to "erode his own base through his record". His record is that of a moderate conservative, at best, or even a Democrat, at worst, in terms of who he has supported in the past and his previously stated views before he was trying to win a base.

It's that irony that I'm trying to point out to a few in another thread - they think moderate, establishment voters are gullible sheep, yet they are being shepherded by someone who is blatantly lying to them to gain their votes. When he's caught in those lies, he says, "Well, you have to be flexible...", which is exactly why they're pissed at Rubio now.

There is no logical reason to vote for Trump. It's about emotion, which is always the best reason to make important decisions (DWS).

I get that. I guess you can put me in the group that does not think Trump really believes what he is saying so I do not care much.

The article mentions what you did about Rubio making a mistake doing personal attacks, and what about people perceive as being strong, but also mentions how he eroded his support/base with his immigration antics-not just among tea party members and voters, but politicians as well..

I think a lot of people in FL(and everywhere) are tired of a politician selling something, then doing something else. And even though Trump has a fairly liberal record on some topics people either want to believe him or are going to give him a chance until he proves them wrong.

https://www.yahoo.com/politics/whats-next-for-marco-rubio-032224287.html

 

[IlluminatiEXPOSETHEMNOW1]

So, we have three republican candidates struggling to take down Trump before it is too late.

Rubio has taken the mini-Trump route in an attempt to "out-Trump" Trump with personal attacks and substantive attacks. It doesn't appear to have worked.

Cruz has taken the substantive attack route only. I actually think this will end up having the most success for him. His problem is everyone on all sides finds him so odious and unlikeable that he cannot fully take advantage of it.

I think it is pretty clear that when Trump goes on TV and says seal the south border, build the military to defend the U.S. border, square the trade deficit to just about every country on earth, and bring our manufacturing back here in the United States, audit the FED, and end the IRS that he is pretty loyal to the country.

It is pretty incredible that Obama gets into office and the national debt of the last 43 presidents COMBINED doubled under Obama that we have a serious situation in this country. When Obama doubles that national debt of the last 43 presidents combined in just 8 years and a "national media" that says Trump is evil for wanting to bring jobs back here that we have a government working for the Queen of England who owns 40% of the land mass on Earth.

I think it is pretty damn clear Hillary, Obama, Cruz and his Goldman Sachs wife and that punk from Ohio Kasich who worked as the managing director at Lehman Brothers working to bring down America when they went belly up and almost brought America completely to its knees rigging the market that they don't work for this country. I think they've made that pretty damn clear to everyone by now. Only those who are willfully simpering hate Trump because Trump represents a country that used to be but no longer is and the losers want to pretend the New World Order is theirs not that they are conquered slaves in the New World Order. That they would rather switch than fight.

 

[Stairwayto7]

Who let him back on board ^^^^^ ?