I never said I had a timeline for naming 9 other coaches, did I, dryfly? No, I didn't. I can research and look for other candidates that I believe could improve this program and a lot of guys on this board (using group-mentality posting, I might say, which is an easy thing to do instead of debating in a more thought-out manner) can get upset and say "no, so-and-so wouldn't be a better replacement", because you want to believe what you want to believe and be "right". I will believe what I want to believe as well.
Painter in tournament
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Take whatever time you want, it's a free country. I have simply been replying to your original post saying you could name 10 replacement candidates better than CMP. No idea what you mean by "group mentality posting". I have, and will continue to offer my opinions as stand alone thoughts on any candidates you put forward.
I have been clear that I don't think replacing CMP is the right move. No hidden agendas on my part. You have clearly stated that you feel he should be replaced. Fair enough. I think you will find it harder than you think to come up with names and the fact that the first one you named was Howland reinforces that opinion.
I will wait for the other names and hope that you post them in this thread so a fair debate can be had.
One of the problems with this discussion is that it is impossible to judge how someone will recruit Indiana, unless they come from Xavier or Dayton perhaps. We cannot predict well how well they're style fits the players they would inherit. We cannot predict how the existing players will like or play for the new guy. There is reasonable expectations that recruiting would suffer at least through the critical 2017 class. There is reasonable expectation that they players would not fit his style (as they would not have fit Shaka Smart) and there is reasonable expectation that at least one or two would transfer because of the change. You can debate these happenings as I in no way know that they would happen, but they have certainly happened for other programs.
So, if one is willing to sacrifice the next 3 years, or more, in order to possibly (and that is at best a 60-40 possibility) improve it 4 years from now, well ....
I understand the theory that Painter will never get to the FF and that we might as well cut bait now. I just don't understand thinking that there is anyone out there who will maintain the program at the level it is now (defining that as 10th nationally this year and top 25 predictions next year - because that's all we have tobase it on) and have a decent chance at recruiting (I know you will debate this, but I cannot expect any replacement to make more inroads for 2017 than Painter has). I know you will want to discuss Tourney success, and that is fine, but again, I don't see anyone coming in soon and taking the team to deeper tournament success within 3 years or so. Maybe so, but maybe not so. They will be working with players they did not recruit and who probably won't play their style since we are trying to change the style as much as the coach.
Very well said.
I have nothing against any of the people on this or other threads that think CMP should be replaced. I just want to know who they are replacing him with. Without that, it's just a bunch of blustering with no substance.
I had this exact conversation with my 76 year old father this past weekend. He would love to see CMP go. I asked him who he would hire if he was the AD and he didn't have an answer. I told him to let me know when he had the person and we would discuss that person and their merits. Same thing I'm asking here.
Here is a funny thing I am noticing with all of this. Based on other threads where people mention replacements, if you took all the names off and just based your decison on records and such, I have little doubt most would unknowingly choose CMP.
Unfortunately that may be an impossible thing to test.
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Unfortunately, our primary entertainment venues condition most of us to look for simple solutions for bad things, a solution with only one component, one bad guy so to speak. ...and the solution had better not take more than 60 minutes to digest and resolve, or the audience will get frustrated.
Most of us know that in real life, the causes of our problems are often less well defined and are frequently intertwined with other causes. Fixing one problem may create other less desireable conditions. Often the best you can do is to dampen or molify the problem, because it may not be totally soluable. We have to put springs in our car suspensions because we can't seem to build smooth durable roads, for example.
When we have a disappointing result from our sports teams, we (the collective "we") tend to want to make a change in our status quo to "fix" the problem. We don't appreciate or take into consideration the impact of our competition, and their skills and capabilities. We focus only on Purdue and what was done "wrong". Who is to balme? Got to be our coach, right? Add the AD in there as well. Clean house!
Let's do this fix in 60 minutes! We think we have found our single-source-cause of the problem in something the coach did. Replace him and all will be well. We will live happily ever after....
The other issue I frequently see is the inability to beleive and mentally stick to your plan. Some folks would hit the gate with the battering ram just once. SInce the gate doesn't fall, they think they need to do something else, when in fact, it going to take multiple trys to get through the door. Good thing for Nova that they tolerated a number of early exits from the NCAA's in past years. Obviously their AD recognized the value their coach brought to their program, and kept at it. The gate eventually fell.
Most of us know that in real life, the causes of our problems are often less well defined and are frequently intertwined with other causes. Fixing one problem may create other less desireable conditions. Often the best you can do is to dampen or molify the problem, because it may not be totally soluable. We have to put springs in our car suspensions because we can't seem to build smooth durable roads, for example.
When we have a disappointing result from our sports teams, we (the collective "we") tend to want to make a change in our status quo to "fix" the problem. We don't appreciate or take into consideration the impact of our competition, and their skills and capabilities. We focus only on Purdue and what was done "wrong". Who is to balme? Got to be our coach, right? Add the AD in there as well. Clean house!
Let's do this fix in 60 minutes! We think we have found our single-source-cause of the problem in something the coach did. Replace him and all will be well. We will live happily ever after....
The other issue I frequently see is the inability to beleive and mentally stick to your plan. Some folks would hit the gate with the battering ram just once. SInce the gate doesn't fall, they think they need to do something else, when in fact, it going to take multiple trys to get through the door. Good thing for Nova that they tolerated a number of early exits from the NCAA's in past years. Obviously their AD recognized the value their coach brought to their program, and kept at it. The gate eventually fell.
May not be on the bus to replace Painter this year, possibly after next if he flames out again. My first choice would be Bryce Drew, but Vandy already got him. Drew was under contract until about 2023, so he or Vandy was able to handle any buyout.
Second choice would be Archie Miller from Dayton. Like Drew he is under contract for about 6 yrs and no clue on buyout.
Some other options: Ga coach, really good recruiter, have not followed Ga so don't know much about his overall coaching. Couple others would be coach at Iowa St, coach at Nothern Iowa. Coach at Wright State. Don't have a lot of specifics on these, but then I'm not hiring anyone.
One thing I know for sure is to look outside of the Purdue connections.
I'm sure there are other coaches out there that could easily be convinced to coach at Purdue. And be an improvement over Painter. I just don't have the time for hours of research when I'm not the person making a decision to replace Painter.
First of all, I am one of the few that think Painter should be replaced. I also believe just because a few want him gone, it's not our responsibility to find his successor. That's why universities hire search committees. People are just scared of what we would get and I certainly don't advocate Burke hiring his replacement.
What I think is a fair question is what makes someone believe the next eleven Painter years will be any different than the previous eleven?
What I think is a fair question is what makes someone believe the next eleven Painter years will be any different than the previous eleven?
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I now see why you asked, "Who are the experts." You want to know who is your competition.
No, it's not your responsibility to come up with successors, but it certainly seems childish to push for a firing when there are likely no better alternatives out there. This isn't hazell and Purdue football; painter is coming off a season where we were ranked in the top 20 most of the year. It can get a ton worse, and unless there's a clear upgrade, it seems silly to even speculate on firing him. As others have said, Nova was known for early exits before it all clicked. Same with Wisconsin, and now Virginia. The odds are that if we keep knocking at the door with good teams, we'll get there too. And there's not a better suited coach to get us there in the next 5 years than painter.
Your attitude is exactly the problem with Purdue athletics. You have been drinking the koolaid for 35 years. By the way, we could do a ton better!
First of all, You are not "one of the few" that think CMP should be replaced. There are many on here and walking down the street that feel the same way. Just don't want you to think you are alone
Secondly, no one is asking you to hire his replacement . What is being asked is that if you feel that strongly that a coach should be replaced it seems logical that you would have someone in mind to replace him. If you don't, then thanks for giving your opinion and we'll leave it at that. There was one poster that said he could name 10 better replacements for the coach and so I asked him to name them.
You ask a fair question: What makes me think the next 11 years will be any different than the previous 11? Here is my answer to that:
I don't know. I'm not trying to be cute, that is the honest answer. What I also don't know is that any replacement would be better. What I do know is that we have a coach that had 2 very bad years out of 11 and the other 9 have either been good or very good. I know that recruiting has been much better the past few years and I like the prospects for the next 2 seasons. The recruiting class for 2017 will be very important and I feel better about CMP being the coach for that class than hiring someone new right before that class is signed.
Is it possible that a new coach could come in and take us to the promised land? Yes, is the answer. Is it also possible that a new coach could come in and the program be worse off? Yes, is the answer. I have done my research (since I asked others to do it) and I'm not convinced there is a candidate I would want over our current coach. Obviously this is JMO but that is all I have and all that others have. I have been genuinely interested in the names that others would suggest for a replacement. If you or others don't have a suggestion and just want "anybody but CMP" that is your right and I'll leave it at that.
OK ST hired the SFA Coach Underwood and GA TECH hires Pastner from Memphis. I'm not sure either of them is a TON better than their predecessors. So, the question remains, as it has for the past two weeks in this thread, just WHO is a TON better.
in coaching it is not uncommon for a coach to get fired and hired again for more money...go figure. I don't think I have read a single concern stating a philosophy on actual basketball as to why Purdue is going down the wrong path. Most just like the hype of the tourney and want something different There are better coaches than Matt and there are a lot worse...risks on both sides...
Partner will most likely be far, far better than Gregory. Atlanta area is loaded with talent for 2017, so Pastner has opportunity to get off to a great start.
OH, I agree. And there have been coaches who did poorly at one program and lit it up at another. I would like to see a more exciting style, assuming it would be successful. I have no problem with someone thinking a different coach would make our team more successful (depending a little on how they define success). But when aspects like recruiting Indiana, being "in" on the 2017 players, making the guys we have now work in his new system,media persona, and others are considered .... along with current contract, buy out, extension from their current school, do dah day ... just WHO is there who we can get? And how does anyone know that they would be ANY better, let alone a TON better.
If their system doesn't fit our guys well. If they don't get some good 2017 guys. If they have a poor next two years trying to "turn-around" a top 20 program (isnt' that a strange thing to say) ... then how will this thread be trending at that time>
The pertinent question is not "should we fire Painter or not", because that isn't happening: the AD piggy bank gets smashed to smithereens this November, hopefully.First of all, You are not "one of the few" that think CMP should be replaced. There are many on here and walking down the street that feel the same way. Just don't want you to think you are alone
Secondly, no one is asking you to hire his replacement . What is being asked is that if you feel that strongly that a coach should be replaced it seems logical that you would have someone in mind to replace him. If you don't, then thanks for giving your opinion and we'll leave it at that. There was one poster that said he could name 10 better replacements for the coach and so I asked him to name them.
You ask a fair question: What makes me think the next 11 years will be any different than the previous 11? Here is my answer to that:
I don't know. I'm not trying to be cute, that is the honest answer. What I also don't know is that any replacement would be better. What I do know is that we have a coach that had 2 very bad years out of 11 and the other 9 have either been good or very good. I know that recruiting has been much better the past few years and I like the prospects for the next 2 seasons. The recruiting class for 2017 will be very important and I feel better about CMP being the coach for that class than hiring someone new right before that class is signed.
Is it possible that a new coach could come in and take us to the promised land? Yes, is the answer. Is it also possible that a new coach could come in and the program be worse off? Yes, is the answer. I have done my research (since I asked others to do it) and I'm not convinced there is a candidate I would want over our current coach. Obviously this is JMO but that is all I have and all that others have. I have been genuinely interested in the names that others would suggest for a replacement. If you or others don't have a suggestion and just want "anybody but CMP" that is your right and I'll leave it at that.
The real question is, what does Painter need to accomplish to earn a contract extension, which probably needs to be addressed by the end of next season.
I've been around Purdue a long time. I'd be surprised if a change in AD dramatically affects the proverbial "piggy bank". I expect continued fiscal conservatism to reign. I don't believe athletics are a big enough deal to the BoT or the President of the University that they are going loosen the purse strings very much.
Ehh...
3 losing seasons = 3 bad years surely, right? I would say 1 "very good" season, and that is tying for the league championship and making the s16. Otherwise, we've had some decent seasons, but nothing special. I wouldn't call losing in the 1st round the last 2 years "good" seasons.
Here are some coaches we would have a realistic shot at and I think would be better than CMP, and I am sure we could get at least 3 or 4 of them to WL- Chris Mack, Gregg Marshall, Zo, Shaka Smart (wish we would've gotten him before Texas), Larry Krystkowiak, Archie Miller, Dana Altman.
The problem is, this list is fluid as many of these coaches will be poached before we get rid of CMP. As we all know, CMP has a huge buyout and will be here for at least 2-3 more years. of course by then, new candidates will have emerged. Hopefully, we bring in the right AD to get basketball and football on the right track.
This is a great point. What does he need to get an extension? I sure wouldn't give him one now. For starters, I would say he needs to land a top 10 class in 2017. There are several top 50 players in the state of Indiana in 2017. Painter has gotten better at recruiting, at least in spurts (2012 was mixed, 2013 turned out bad, 2014 very good, 2015 good, 2016 looks below average but can obviously change). We need more consistency in recruiting and everything is lined up for 2017 to be great IF CMP can capitalize on the opportunity. I also want to see some development out of our guards. Guys need to add dimensions to their games, like the ability to get to the bucket or nail pull up jumpers and get better at beating the press. Obviously, I also want to see us do something in the tournament since CMP hasn't won a tourney game since his last extension.
Putting arbitrary benchmarks like "He needs to land a top 10 class" is just stupid. What if he gets a #14 class? Basketball recruiting class rankings are not very "benchmarkable" given the variations in size - it's not like football where almost every school is bringing in 20+ recruits of varying positions. Basketball recruiting classes are not apples to apples.
Sorry - what I meant was that we are not going to have any money to fire Painter after November (not saying we should anyway) - because we are emptying the piggy bank to buyout The Haze, hopefully.
Because he had success at Kentucky where no one has had outright failure for as long as I can remember. How did he do in Minnesota? Didn't seem to be better than Painter at Purdue.
He succeeded BECAUSE he was at Kentucky. If Kentucky succeeded because of Tubby, he would have been able to elevate Minnesota at least to Purdues level. Way too much blame/credit is put on/given to coaches. Same with recruiting. The only new coach who will do better is one who can recruit like the top 5 teams do every year but AT PURDUE. Look for that guy but understand, he may be a Unicorn.
Plus, it will depend on who is still here. If there are great seniors here at a great recruits' position, it changes everything, and CMP can't do much about that - even if he wanted to. I'm not studying the grid, just stating a fact that may or may not pertain.
I know we keep talking about the great 2017 class, but as has been discussed on other threads, there are really only 4 in Indiana and they are all good enough to be getting offers from Kansas, NC, KY, MSU, etal. That's great and great that we are fighting for them, but it adds a lot to their decision-making - nothing CMP can do about their decision-making other than fight the good fight. Coming in 2nd to Kansas or NC or KY or whoever ... I know, no moral victories .... but ...
We do need to reload in 2017, but to judge CMP's recruiting Skills on those four is a bit limiting. If the criteria expands to a solid recruiting class, then really it's no different from any other year.
Overall, putting benchmarks on things is just not the best way. For example - if we won one game in the tournament and lost to a higher seed in Iowa State - would this conversation even be taking place? I doubt it. A person's job shouldn't suddenly be questioned based on 1 game difference.
I get that it's "fun" for some to talk about, but nobody's job is anywhere in jeopardy. And an extension will take place if firing isn't involved (which at this point is not the situation). Basically, extensions mean nothing in the world of coaching - you have to be on contract for a number of years in the future, in the eyes of many, to be able to perform your job and recruit (personally I think it's absurd, but I get how it can be used against you). So unless you are firing that person that year, you will extend them, even if they are on thin ice (i.e. Danny Hope's contract extension).
There are a lot of ways to view Matt Painter’s record. I think some pick and choose to make their point, and that’s okay as long as we keep the total picture in perspective. In his 11 years, he has finished 4th or better 7 times.
His first year (2006) was with an injury riddled team he inherited from Keady. He had a 9-19 record and finished 11th. After that, he finished in the top 4 for 5 straight years. His 2012 team finished 7th, but made it to the third round of the NCAA’s. After that, he had a couple bad years. 2013 he finished 7th, but with a losing record of 16-18. The next year he finished 12th with a 15-17 record. After those 2 bad years, we have had 2 years of 3rd place finishes.
Given this record, I think Matt has done well in the BIG conference. It is highly competitive, and we have been on the up side of the pack more times than not. One first place, 3 second place, and 2 third place finishes. That is a good record.
Like many of you, I am not satisfied with the NCAA tournament results. We made it to 2 Sweet Sixteen’s, 2 third round games, and 3 second round exits. This year’s 1st round exit was the first of Matt’s Purdue record. Right now, I would say it was an abnormality, based on his entire record. I think this is a reasonable record for our coach, but he need to break through the Sweet Sixteen barrier consistently.
The positive aspect here is that I know Matt is not satisfied either. One look at his normally stoic face after the ALR game and you could tell. I think he is the kind of person that learns from his mistakes, and this year's disappointment should pay off in later years. However, that is just my opinion.
His first year (2006) was with an injury riddled team he inherited from Keady. He had a 9-19 record and finished 11th. After that, he finished in the top 4 for 5 straight years. His 2012 team finished 7th, but made it to the third round of the NCAA’s. After that, he had a couple bad years. 2013 he finished 7th, but with a losing record of 16-18. The next year he finished 12th with a 15-17 record. After those 2 bad years, we have had 2 years of 3rd place finishes.
Given this record, I think Matt has done well in the BIG conference. It is highly competitive, and we have been on the up side of the pack more times than not. One first place, 3 second place, and 2 third place finishes. That is a good record.
Like many of you, I am not satisfied with the NCAA tournament results. We made it to 2 Sweet Sixteen’s, 2 third round games, and 3 second round exits. This year’s 1st round exit was the first of Matt’s Purdue record. Right now, I would say it was an abnormality, based on his entire record. I think this is a reasonable record for our coach, but he need to break through the Sweet Sixteen barrier consistently.
The positive aspect here is that I know Matt is not satisfied either. One look at his normally stoic face after the ALR game and you could tell. I think he is the kind of person that learns from his mistakes, and this year's disappointment should pay off in later years. However, that is just my opinion.
LOL... Okay. He won a National Championship at UK, but I guess that's pretty easy in your book. That's why John Calipari has only done it once himself. He's also taken 3 other schools that are not basketball powers to the NCAA. Tulsa, Georgia & Minnesota. At UGa, he beat 1 seed Purdue in the second round & took them to the S16 his first year. He took a bad Texas Tech team to the NCAA tourney this year. Give him a shot at a school that cares about hoops like Purdue. I'm guessing he would have got us out of the 1st round this year. Look what Pitino, the great son of a legend has done at Minny. They lost to Rutgers this year.
Not a painter hater or lover. But dude this post is hilarious.
-painter is criticized for having a bland offense.
-we've won a single ncaa tournament game in 5 years.
-painter has also had a lot of transfers and had to kick people off for bad behavior
Do I think painter should be fired? No. I wouldn't want a replacement unless they were proven.
What I think has absolutely no impact on Purdue athletics, unless Burke and Painter sit around checking on Dakota Girl posts as they work on long term AD strategy and game plan prep. So I don't see my thinking as the problem. A few keep saying that we can do much better but none have provided a viable option. How do you know we can do better? How do you know who is better? How do you know what all of the variables are which impact program performance and which are driven by the coach? The only impact that fans have is economic (i.e. Don't go to games or watch on TV). I'm not doing that and most likely neither is anyone else here given the top 25 level for most people f the last ten years. So maybe we can raise enough negative publicity with public requests to fire the coach. That would likely negatively impact recruiting long before affecting the AD decision process. That seems counter productive.
Given these options I will either support without complaint or withdraw support and move on to other interests. I guess I could become a massive athletics financial backer and thus buy a voice in the process. I just need the cash.
The point is 2016 could have used a few good players and he didn't capitalize. 2017 is HUGE. No I don't mean if he gets the #11 class and it looks very solid he should go. But if he lands another class with a single fringe 3 star like 2016, then that is not good enough. He needs to build on a good 2014 class and a very good player with Biggie in 2015. Can he do that? Can he get a 2/3 that can create off the dribble and some size to back up/replace Haas who will be entering his senior year and Biggie who could be gone by then? Should be interesting if nothing else
Yes, we get the general basis - eventually we won't have our current players and we'll need replacements. Of course we have to recruit some good players. But I'm hesitant on being specific as was alluded to in a previous post. As you mention - it's more about replacing than just straight up recruiting. We can recruit 10 guards, but it won't help us replace Haas. College basketball is more about fit.
And as for bringing in "a few good players in 2016", I don't think anyone was expecting that. Purdue's depth this past year was, quite frankly, remarkable. You had 11 players who you could play significant minutes. A non-freshman VOLUNTEERED to redshirt we had so much depth. We only lost a couple guys (who basically already have their replacements here because of our depth).
You aren't bringing in "a few good players" in that situation. Period.
Only you didn't get the general basis. You specifically said "What if he gets a #14 class?". So again, I must explain so you can understand. CBB and Painter specifically have had so many transfers year after year, and he knew for sure 2 scholarships would be free in 2016 in our 2 seniors. It's too bad he couldn't capitalize on that with another good recruit in '16. Don't talk about depth, all good teams have depth most of the time and the best still land studs to come in and compete. Period.
People are complaining about our offense not being aggressive or too much emphasis on defense or we have too much turnover - then are pleading for a coach who had the same damn complaints! That was the point...
That was a direct response to you stating verbatim: "I would say he needs to land a top 10 class in 2017."
Also, let me know how many Big Ten teams had 11 players who could play significant minutes last year.
When did 4-star Carson Edwards become a "fringe 3-star player"? He is the starting PG on the #1 high school team in America, and averages 25 ppg.
The first thing I think when I read your post is that you are either uninformed, or you are pushing an agenda that needs lies to support. Which is it?
When did 4-star Carson Edwards become a "fringe 3-star player"? He is the starting PG on the #1 high school team in America, and averages 25 ppg.
The first thing I think when I read your post is that you are either uninformed, or you are pushing an agenda that needs lies to support. Which is it?
Check Rivals... he is a 3. Others have said he is a 4 on other sites but I haven't checked. He is between a 3 or 4 depending on the site, so not exactly a decorated recruit. I think he could be good, but then again Tacos averaged great numbers in HS and some were pumped about him... or Stephens... or RJ, who some said in this forum would be better than Yogi. I hope he is great and leads us to the final 4 next year, but the chance of him being like RJ or Bryson (both ranked higher) is just as strong if not stronger then him being really good.
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