Painter apologist here/Challenge

[Professor Emeritus]

I can understand (to a point) some of the frustration with CMP. He has weaknesses like everyone else. I was shaking my head in disappointment when I saw Eifert on the floor for the opening tap at Crisler on Saturday.

But there are few coaches in the college game who are as respected by their peers, and I would venture to say fewer still who run as successful a program while being completely on the up-and-up. It's a very rare thing to have two honorable, decent, and highly successful men lead a school's marquee athletic programs at the same time.

For those who want to call me an elite-level butt-kisser or some such, have at it. But I am interested in seeing from those who insist on initiating thread after thread about how we need change, or Painter is mediocre, or Painter flat out sucks is the following:

Pretend you are Mike Bobinski and come up with a three-or-four sentence statement that would be released to the media, JPC, etc. explaining the rationale/justification for firing Painter after this season (since many of you have concluded that this season is a failure). Then outline your candidate to replace him and how you would lure that person to West Lafayette and why he would be better than Painter.

I would especially be interested in how you as MBob would convince a candidate that he could trust you after vaporizing the third most successful coach in school history.

 

[ghostoffatjack]

If one looks at losing to the #5 and #11 ranked teams on the road with an inexperienced and young squad as ours, as your end of the world...one would not be a realist!

 

[DannyGranger]

I don't think he is firable. I also know he will not change, so the ending, based on current, and incoming talent, is spoiled for the next 2-3 years at least

 

[bonefish1]

"I and the rest of Boilermakernation want to thank Coach Painter for representing Purdue both on and off the court with dignity and class. We feel Coach Painter is an honorable character builder of student athletes and an excellent basketball coach. But, as anyone in business or high level athletics knows, sometimes change is required in order to reach higher goals. And make no mistake, the goals here are Final Fours and National Championships. I, and my athletic administration, with the support of the Board of Trustees, have determined that in order to reach those higher goals and with the commitment we're making to the basketball program, that it's in the best interest of Purdue and Coach Painter to instill new leadership for our basketball program."

 

[Chi-Boiler]

While I'm not endorsing a change, successful coaches have often times been fired because they could not get over the hump. In 1990 the Chicago Bulls fired likeable Doug Collins and replaced him with relative unknown Phil Jackson. The Bulls were very good at the time but couldn't make that next step. The rest as they say is history.

 

[DannyGranger]

"I and the rest of Boilermakernation want to thank Coach Painter for representing Purdue both on and off the court with dignity and class. We feel Coach Painter is an honorable character builder of student athletes and an excellent basketball coach. But, as anyone in business or high level athletics knows, sometimes change is required in order to reach higher goals. And make no mistake, the goals here are Final Fours and National Championships. I, and my athletic administration, with the support of the Board of Trustees, have determined that in order to reach those higher goals and with the commitment we're making to the basketball program, that it's in the best interest of Purdue and Coach Painter to instill new leadership for our basketball program."

Will never happen, don't think it should at this point. But A+ effort!

 

[mathboy]

"I and the rest of Boilermakernation want to thank Coach Painter for representing Purdue both on and off the court with dignity and class. We feel Coach Painter is an honorable character builder of student athletes and an excellent basketball coach. But, as anyone in business or high level athletics knows, sometimes change is required in order to reach higher goals. And make no mistake, the goals here are Final Fours and National Championships. I, and my athletic administration, with the support of the Board of Trustees, have determined that in order to reach those higher goals and with the commitment we're making to the basketball program, that it's in the best interest of Purdue and Coach Painter to instill new leadership for our basketball program."

Given the high level of performance by Matt Painter, any AD that would do this will be following Painter, out the door, within two years.

 

[SunnyFL24]

Abetter example would be

While I'm not endorsing a change, successful coaches have often times been fired because they could not get over the hump. In 1990 the Chicago Bulls fired likeable Doug Collins and replaced him with relative unknown Phil Jackson. The Bulls were very good at the time but couldn't make that next step. The rest as they say is history.

A better example would be Rick Barnes now at TN(LOL! Who gives a rats azz about the NBA)......Couldn't get over the hump at Texas (Was successful for many years) Doing wonders at TN in a short period of time. Not always great to get what you wish for some times...Think Texas is worse off without him......We will be fine as the year progresses, were young and the Conf is well balanced this year..... Painter does need to adapt sometimes, and I for one do not agree wth his X'S and O'S at times. And he is stubborn at times to a fault(never likes to foul when up 3 late in games...TN game last year...... as well as a few others).....We may struggle to get a bid to the dance this year......thinking we will fall anywhere from 5-10th in the Conf this year.

 

[BoilerDeac]

While I'm not endorsing a change, successful coaches have often times been fired because they could not get over the hump. In 1990 the Chicago Bulls fired likeable Doug Collins and replaced him with relative unknown Phil Jackson. The Bulls were very good at the time but couldn't make that next step. The rest as they say is history.

Yep. Same with Mark Jackson and the Warriors. Just because something is good does not mean it can't get better.

 

[purduepat1969]

If one looks at losing to the #5 and #11 ranked teams on the road with an inexperienced and young squad as ours, as your end of the world...one would not be a realist!

Please tell me how this team is young and inexperienced? It's just not that talented.

Seniors: Cline, Eifert
Juniors: Edwards, Boudreax (grad transfer)
Sophomores: Eastern (experienced), Haarms (redshirt experienced)

These guys above are getting most of the minutes. And they're all experienced players. The freshmen: Wheeler (redshirt), Hunter, Stephanovich, aren't getting that many minutes.

 

[tjreese]

"I and the rest of Boilermakernation want to thank Coach Painter for representing Purdue both on and off the court with dignity and class. We feel Coach Painter is an honorable character builder of student athletes and an excellent basketball coach. But, as anyone in business or high level athletics knows, sometimes change is required in order to reach higher goals. And make no mistake, the goals here are Final Fours and National Championships. I, and my athletic administration, with the support of the Board of Trustees, have determined that in order to reach those higher goals and with the commitment we're making to the basketball program, that it's in the best interest of Purdue and Coach Painter to instill new leadership for our basketball program."

I'm convinced there are better coaches than every single Big coach coaching today...somewhere. I think there are some potentially great coaches that we never hear about...I also think the Big coaches are much better than most. So, it appears to me that an intelligent person would conclude that it is much easier to get a worse coach than a better coach even when ignoring how young Matt is and the potential future through even more experience.

Still, if an A.D. were to have the same weighting of importance as some posters here in what is a successful program, there is no question that a better coach exists somewhere, that will be here for some time and could be obtained should the desire of the A.D. coincide with some posters.

That said, what are the metrics of importance that the A.D. seek and whether those metrics are indicative of the future the Purdue A.D. seek? What is the shopping list and the reason to believe a continuation of those characteristics at Purdue will continue.

I mean "they are out there"...how do we know we get what is needed?
When the criteria is determined (assuming it agrees with some posters) and the variables that are believed to contribute to those results are reviewed, are those variables obtainable at the same level that was believed to create the conditions or measures of success that the A.D. wants?

 

[ghostoffatjack]

Please tell me how this team is young and inexperienced? It's just not that talented.

Seniors: Cline, Eifert
Juniors: Edwards, Boudreax (grad transfer)
Sophomores: Eastern (experienced), Haarms (redshirt experienced)

These guys above are getting most of the minutes. And they're all experienced players. The freshmen: Wheeler (redshirt), Hunter, Stephanovich, aren't getting that many minutes.

EASY, outside of minutes played by Carsen, none of the 2019 Seniors nor Haarms played significant minutes in crunch times against top opponents unless there was foul trouble with last years 2018 Seniors. If you don't accept that we are young and inexperienced you are in for a long first 1/2 to 3/4 of this season when we play top opponents on the road!

 

[purduepat1969]

EASY, outside of minutes played by Carsen, none of the 2019 Seniors nor Haarms played significant minutes in crunch times against top opponents unless there was foul trouble with last years 2018 Seniors. If you don't accept that we are young and inexperienced you are in for a long first 1/2 to 3/4 of this season when we play top opponents on the road!

Eastern played significant minutes. Haarms played significant minutes. Carsen played significant minutes. Cline played significant minutes. They all played in crunch time at some point last year against tough competition. I don't buy that they're a young team. Maybe some inexperience. Not arguing they'll struggle. I've accepted that. But it's not because of youth. Duke is a young team with 4 starting freshmen.

 

[ss32000]

I really think Purdue is a in really tough spot. Painter overall is really liked/respected, by other coaches in the coaching profession. I think this is something to aspire for, but it can't be a main factor in evaluating a coach. What I think is missing from the context is, how does Purdue fair when the conference is really good. I went back and looked at Purdue under Painter and how they tracked against the Big Ten on a year by year basis against the field (all numbers for conference based upon Ken Pom).

As you look at the picture, I used Green for when the Big Ten was the best or 2nd best conference in America. Yellow for 3 and red for 4 or 5th best conference. For Purdue finish, I thought a top 5 finish was green, 6-8 was yellow and red was 9-14.

I think it's reasonable to throw out Painter's first year as a rebuild was happening. Going forward, it looks like Painter was doing a great job in 2007-2011 when the Big Ten was really down. As the conference got much better, in 2011-2014, you can see Purdue went backwards in terms of finish in the conference. As the conference has dipped in terms of status, Purdue has risen back to the top. So it's possible as people are arguing about Painter, you could be making two arguments and both be right. People can point to the 2 conference titles over 13 years as we got a good coach. If you are anti Painter, you can argue that his recruiting ceiling gets magnified as the other schools in the conference get good. There is a talent gap that gets magnified when other programs are "right". I'm not making any statements one way or the other, but data is better. For context, the Big Ten is second this year nationally and has 13 top 100 teams. The projected conference champ according to Ken Pom will go 15-5 this year in the conference (Michigan).

 

[BoilerInChiTown]

I can understand (to a point) some of the frustration with CMP. He has weaknesses like everyone else. I was shaking my head in disappointment when I saw Eifert on the floor for the opening tap at Crisler on Saturday.

But there are few coaches in the college game who are as respected by their peers, and I would venture to say fewer still who run as successful a program while being completely on the up-and-up. It's a very rare thing to have two honorable, decent, and highly successful men lead a school's marquee athletic programs at the same time.

For those who want to call me an elite-level butt-kisser or some such, have at it. But I am interested in seeing from those who insist on initiating thread after thread about how we need change, or Painter is mediocre, or Painter flat out sucks is the following:

Pretend you are Mike Bobinski and come up with a three-or-four sentence statement that would be released to the media, JPC, etc. explaining the rationale/justification for firing Painter after this season (since many of you have concluded that this season is a failure). Then outline your candidate to replace him and how you would lure that person to West Lafayette and why he would be better than Painter.

I would especially be interested in how you as MBob would convince a candidate that he could trust you after vaporizing the third most successful coach in school history.

There's an easy solution to this. GET A GOD D@MN TOP NOTCH RECRUITER. DONATE A BIT OF HIS $2.5M SALARY IF HE MUST. Get this sh!t done...

 

[mathboy]

I really think Purdue is a in really tough spot. Painter overall is really liked/respected, by other coaches in the coaching profession. I think this is something to aspire for, but it can't be a main factor in evaluating a coach. What I think is missing from the context is, how does Purdue fair when the conference is really good. I went back and looked at Purdue under Painter and how they tracked against the Big Ten on a year by year basis against the field (all numbers for conference based upon Ken Pom).

As you look at the picture, I used Green for when the Big Ten was the best or 2nd best conference in America. Yellow for 3 and red for 4 or 5th best conference. For Purdue finish, I thought a top 5 finish was green, 6-8 was yellow and red was 9-14.

I think it's reasonable to throw out Painter's first year as a rebuild was happening. Going forward, it looks like Painter was doing a great job in 2007-2011 when the Big Ten was really down. As the conference got much better, in 2011-2014, you can see Purdue went backwards in terms of finish in the conference. As the conference has dipped in terms of status, Purdue has risen back to the top. So it's possible as people are arguing about Painter, you could be making two arguments and both be right. People can point to the 2 conference titles over 13 years as we got a good coach. If you are anti Painter, you can argue that his recruiting ceiling gets magnified as the other schools in the conference get good. There is a talent gap that gets magnified when other programs are "right". I'm not making any statements one way or the other, but data is better. For context, the Big Ten is second this year nationally and has 13 top 100 teams. The projected conference champ according to Ken Pom will go 15-5 this year in the conference (Michigan).

I like the chart, however, I think there is a more significant correlation that is causative. Please add a third row that shows the Cordova administration period with restricted budgets. I think you will find that our worst years are those where we had to play with kids recruited under severe budget restrictions. Now identify the point when Painter flirted with Mizzo and got a better budget. That inflection point is when we started to recruit better and put better teams on the floor.

 

[tjreese]

I really think Purdue is a in really tough spot. Painter overall is really liked/respected, by other coaches in the coaching profession. I think this is something to aspire for, but it can't be a main factor in evaluating a coach. What I think is missing from the context is, how does Purdue fair when the conference is really good. I went back and looked at Purdue under Painter and how they tracked against the Big Ten on a year by year basis against the field (all numbers for conference based upon Ken Pom).

As you look at the picture, I used Green for when the Big Ten was the best or 2nd best conference in America. Yellow for 3 and red for 4 or 5th best conference. For Purdue finish, I thought a top 5 finish was green, 6-8 was yellow and red was 9-14.

I think it's reasonable to throw out Painter's first year as a rebuild was happening. Going forward, it looks like Painter was doing a great job in 2007-2011 when the Big Ten was really down. As the conference got much better, in 2011-2014, you can see Purdue went backwards in terms of finish in the conference. As the conference has dipped in terms of status, Purdue has risen back to the top. So it's possible as people are arguing about Painter, you could be making two arguments and both be right. People can point to the 2 conference titles over 13 years as we got a good coach. If you are anti Painter, you can argue that his recruiting ceiling gets magnified as the other schools in the conference get good. There is a talent gap that gets magnified when other programs are "right". I'm not making any statements one way or the other, but data is better. For context, the Big Ten is second this year nationally and has 13 top 100 teams. The projected conference champ according to Ken Pom will go 15-5 this year in the conference (Michigan).

I like this chart and " Painter overall is really liked/respected, by other coaches in the coaching profession." by those in the game.

What I intended to do was learn about Kenpom last summer, but it got pushed to anther day and here I am unable to understand the pros and cons of the model and the error about that. Although I question if any posters understand that actual model and error about the model I do think there is merit to trying to understand more. What truly determines the ultimate ranking of team and the accumulation of those effects in a conference in comparison to other conference ignoring injuries and such and trying to compensate for home courts and such. Your chart is of interest, but most people thought the baby boilers with Hummel were definitely final four good even though Kenpom didn't think the Big overall was good using whatever they used. Not saying your thoughts are in error...just have questions due to not knowing enough about the calculations, error about those calculations and such. We have essentially continuous data with various efficiencies and then use a less precise or more discrete or limiting set of data in moving to conferences.

Anyway, my ignorance in not understanding the calculations are no more important than the questions you ask and do find your chart interesting

 

[bonefish1]

Will somebody less lazy than me please look up and post where Painter's recruiting classes have ranked in the B10 and nationally during his time at Purdue.

 

[Boilerpointe81]

While I'm not endorsing a change, successful coaches have often times been fired because they could not get over the hump. In 1990 the Chicago Bulls fired likeable Doug Collins and replaced him with relative unknown Phil Jackson. The Bulls were very good at the time but couldn't make that next step. The rest as they say is history.

So, are you saying that Phil is available?

 

[Chi-Boiler]

Please tell me how this team is young and inexperienced? It's just not that talented.

Seniors: Cline, Eifert
Juniors: Edwards, Boudreax (grad transfer)
Sophomores: Eastern (experienced), Haarms (redshirt experienced)

These guys above are getting most of the minutes. And they're all experienced players. The freshmen: Wheeler (redshirt), Hunter, Stephanovich, aren't getting that many minutes.

Only 1 of those players played significant minutes (at Purdue) last year, and that's Edwards. Cline has been a 15-minute reserve for 3 years. Eastern played 10 mpg last year. Haarms about 15.

So I wouldn't say that they are experienced, but in this day and age, that doesn't always matter. Freshmen are so much better and contributing more all over college basketball. This is a year that we needed at least 1 freshman to come in and play major minutes to be successful, be it Wheeler, Hunter or Tre. As of yet, that hasn't happened. Part of that is Painter's coaching strategy, but also part of it is that they just aren't good enough. If Wheeler had outplayed Eifert in the summer and fall, he would be starting. But he clearly didn't.

 

[Chi-Boiler]

So, are you saying that Phil is available?

Nah he's too busy trying to figure out which is bigger, his ego or his bank account.

 

[ss32000]

I'm not going to do the Cordova recruiting budget, but I did pull down the 247 composite rankings for team rank nationally and within the Big Ten. I also added the average, min and max for every row. I'll add the Cordova budget if someone can pull all the schools on a year by year basis. Regardless, I think the Painter improved budget should have come in the 2011-2012 season, since he announced he was staying in March 2011.

 

[BoilerBiker]

Please add a third row that shows the Cordova administration period with restricted budgets. I think you will find that our worst years are those where we had to play with kids recruited under severe budget restrictions.

from the 08-12 seasons during cordova, purdue ranked mid pack to 8th in the big ten in recruiting expenses.

is there data showing how much better our budget was pre-cordova?
tiller and keady used to complain about lack of $ years before her.

link

 

[ghostoffatjack]

Eastern played significant minutes. Haarms played significant minutes. Carsen played significant minutes. Cline played significant minutes. They all played in crunch time at some point last year against tough competition. I don't buy that they're a young team. Maybe some inexperience. Not arguing they'll struggle. I've accepted that. But it's not because of youth. Duke is a young team with 4 starting freshmen.

Significant minutes in games against top teams, not even close! When the game was on the line none except Carsen was on the floor unless of injury or foul trouble! Our point guard situation this year shows how much time at point others actually had!

Regarding DUKE and their 3- 5 Star starters and 1-5 Star reserve who each was in the Top 15 in the US last year.....you are comparing them to Cline and Eifert...you make me lol!

 

[Chi-Boiler]

Well one was in Canada but yeah...

 

[purduepat1969]

Significant minutes in games against top teams, not even close! When the game was on the line none except Carsen was on the floor unless of injury or foul trouble! Our point guard situation this year shows how much time at point others actually had!

Regarding DUKE and their 3- 5 Star starters and 1-5 Star reserve who each was in the Top 15 in the US last year.....you are comparing them to Cline and Eifert...you make me lol!

Your last sentence is exactly my point. Purdue has not recruited well to reload. No one expects Duke level results (that was an exaggeration). But Purdue's not even close to "reloading". Purdue is rebuilding.

 

[gelesen]

CMP is 108th all-time in winning percentage of current and retired coaches. Along with Kansas, UNC, Villanova, Purdue only teams in AP poll all but one week past 4 years. Most wins in B1G last 4 years. Yea, let's try to replace him.

 

[bonefish1]

CMP is 108th all-time in winning percentage of current and retired coaches. Along with Kansas, UNC, Villanova, Purdue only teams in AP poll all but one week past 4 years. Most wins in B1G last 4 years. Yea, let's try to replace him.

And 2 first round washouts and 2 sweet 16 blowouts.

 

[gelesen]

And 2 first round washouts and 2 sweet 16 blowouts.

You mean kinda like MSU the past several years. Also let's not forget the Hummel and Haas injuries. Sure you'll argue against that but facts are facts. Playing without a key player at that level is significant.

 

[InModeration]

You mean kinda like MSU the past several years. Also let's not forget the Hummel and Haas injuries. Sure you'll argue against that but facts are facts. Playing without a key player at that level is significant.

Injuries are a part of the game. But when We run razor thin talent as bench strength, Purdue’s injures are regarded as catastrophic. Painter has always been a sub par recruiter, never more evident than his bench. We play 7 guys because we can only get about 7 guys who can actually play at B1G level, let alone succeed.

 

[bonefish1]

You mean kinda like MSU the past several years. Also let's not forget the Hummel and Haas injuries. Sure you'll argue against that but facts are facts. Playing without a key player at that level is significant.

How many FF has Izzo been to? He’s allowed to have a couple bad years.

 

[ghostoffatjack]

Your last sentence is exactly my point. Purdue has not recruited well to reload. No one expects Duke level results (that was an exaggeration). But Purdue's not even close to "reloading". Purdue is rebuilding.

Let us all in how Purdue can get 4 of the Top 15 players in the country as does Ky with Calapari year in and year out. If that was so easy everyone would be doing it! But I will listen to your HOW and don't forget two other top PROGRAMS Kansas and Arizona are still on the very hot seat for apparently how they were doing it with great recruiters!

 

[Ignacious McNutt]

How many FF has Izzo been to? He’s allowed to have a couple bad years.

So is Painter considering the lack of Administrative support.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

You mean kinda like MSU the past several years. Also let's not forget the Hummel and Haas injuries. Sure you'll argue against that but facts are facts. Playing without a key player at that level is significant.

Please stop with the injury excuses. No one wants to hear that. I made fun of IU fans that moaned about the May and Henderson injuries costing them 2 nattys.

 

[Ignacious McNutt]

Please stop with the injury excuses. No one wants to hear that. I made fun of IU fans that moaned about the May and Henderson injuries costing them 2 nattys.

It's not an excuse it's a reality. They happened at the worst possible time for us and it clearly had an impact whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

 

[purduepat1969]

Let us all in how Purdue can get 4 of the Top 15 players in the country as does Ky with Calapari year in and year out. If that was so easy everyone would be doing it! But I will listen to your HOW and don't forget two other top PROGRAMS Kansas and Arizona are still on the very hot seat for apparently how they were doing it with great recruiters!

For crying out loud, I told you in my post I was using that in an exaggeration and had no expectations of that level of recruiting. But it needs to be better than it is.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

It's not an excuse it's a reality. They happened at the worst possible time for us and it clearly had an impact whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

of course it’s a reality. It’s also a reality that all sports teams have injuries, like IU and the 2 nattys they allegedly lost because of them.

14 years is a large enough sample size for injuries to even out and no longer be an excuse.

 

[Ignacious McNutt]

of course it’s a reality. It’s also a reality that all sports teams have injuries, like IU and the 2 nattys they allegedly lost because of them.

14 years is a large enough sample size for injuries to even out and no longer be an excuse.

Except that they are based on WHEN they happened. You need to take that in to consideration because each injured player was a very important cog to the team and it happened at or near the end of the season with little time to adjust.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Except that they are based on WHEN they happened. You need to take that in to consideration because each injured player was a very important cog to the team and it happened at or near the end of the season with little time to adjust.

So were the May and Henderson injuries, doesn’t make it any less of an excuse.

 

[Ignacious McNutt]

So were the May and Henderson injuries, doesn’t make it any less of an excuse.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then. Because I'm not going to change your mind and you won't change mine.