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OT: Net Neutrality

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Sorry for the political post, but this might end up impacting all if us.

If you hadn't heard, the vote to repeal Net Neutrality passed yesterday and opens the door for ISPs to pull some major shenanigans on us consumers.

Things can get so bad that it possibly can even impact your access to this site and any others, unless you pay more.

I encourage all of you to research this and then call your congressmen to try and get this stopped (I'd you oppose it).

Again sorry for the political and dire post, I just thought it was important enough, for all of us, that it needed brought up.

Thanks. Now we can go back to bickering :)
 
Sorry for the political post, but this might end up impacting all if us.

If you hadn't heard, the vote to repeal Net Neutrality passed yesterday and opens the door for ISPs to pull some major shenanigans on us consumers.

Things can get so bad that it possibly can even impact your access to this site and any others, unless you pay more.

I encourage all of you to research this and then call your congressmen to try and get this stopped (I'd you oppose it).

Again sorry for the political and dire post, I just thought it was important enough, for all of us, that it needed brought up.

Thanks. Now we can go back to bickering :)
Over 80% of Americans want Net Neutrality and don't agree with how the Republicans in the FCC voted for it (it was voted directly down party lines). Over 70% of Republicans in our country don't agree with it along with something like 83% of Democrats as well. This is an issue we can all find common ground on.
 
Over 80% of Americans want Net Neutrality and don't agree with how the Republicans in the FCC voted for it (it was voted directly down party lines). Over 70% of Republicans in our country don't agree with it along with something like 83% of Democrats as well. This is an issue we can all find common ground on.
I voted republican for the first time in my life this last election and agree with what you said here. I think Trump didn't fully understand what this meant, relied on his 'expert' as a leader should, but his 'expert' is a moron.

Anyway, I think that those few that don't want it and are happy with the outcome, don't truly understand the impact. I'm certainly not as computer literate as most on here, but even I know that this has the potential to screw us all over.

To piggy back on BBG's example, some on here can get blocked from even accessing this site based on what ISP they have. Unless you pay more if I am reading it right.
 
I voted republican for the first time in my life this last election and agree with what you said here. I think Trump didn't fully understand what this meant, relied on his 'expert' as a leader should, but his 'expert' is a moron.

Anyway, I think that those few that don't want it and are happy with the outcome, don't truly understand the impact. I'm certainly not as computer literate as most on here, but even I know that this has the potential to screw us all over.

To piggy back on BBG's example, some on here can get blocked from even accessing this site based on what ISP they have. Unless you pay more if I am reading it right.

I think you just described the politics of the last 20 years pretty spot on. Why are we allowing 'experts' to make decisions for us when they have little to no background. My best example is Todd Rokita serving as the Chairman of the Subcommittee On Early Childhood. Elementary, and Secondary Education. Dude has almost no clue what they hell is going on in education today if you follow his information he sends out. Why do we have guys like that heading committees? Why can't they appoint some one with actual and real experience in that field and THEN be filled with Congressional members?
 
How did the internet work before Net Neutrality?
I'd say it was similar to that of cars. If there weren't laws and rules in place that forced car manufacturers to put things in the car as standard like seat belts, airbags, ABS, etc...do you think car manufacturers would really just put them in there or charge you more and more for 'extra features'?
 
I'd say it was similar to that of cars. If there weren't laws and rules in place that forced car manufacturers to put things in the car as standard like seat belts, airbags, ABS, etc...do you think car manufacturers would really just put them in there or charge you more and more for 'extra features'?
There are rules that already regulate the internet outside of Net Neutrality. NN was used to classify the internet as a telecommunication provider and put them under rules/regulations that were put in place to stop AT&T from being a monopoly over 35 years ago.

Some of us are old enough to remember the days of AOL which was the portal to the internet and they could control 100% of the content you could access. Today that isn't the case. More ISPs will come to market and provide competitive packages for people.

https://stratechery.com/2017/pro-neutrality-anti-title-ii/
 
I voted republican for the first time in my life this last election and agree with what you said here. I think Trump didn't fully understand what this meant, relied on his 'expert' as a leader should, but his 'expert' is a moron.
If it was Bush who pushed Net Neutrality and Obama overturned it, people would be partying in the streets.

Just remember Net Neutrality was passed in closed door meetings away from the public eye and you only learned about it after it was enacted.
 
I'd say it was similar to that of cars. If there weren't laws and rules in place that forced car manufacturers to put things in the car as standard like seat belts, airbags, ABS, etc...do you think car manufacturers would really just put them in there or charge you more and more for 'extra features'?
Car manufacturers charged more and more when there was no competition. Japan cars hit the scene in the late 70s with cheaper cars and better quality. The US auto was hit hard and lost business. Before Japan, the union just got 3% annual raises, cola, medical and pension...and that cost was added every year to the car and the quality was poor. Today...dealing in parts per billion and certainly in parts per million defect rates (while ignoring the stupidity of many in management that don't understand attribute data and variable data effectiveness) the auto manufacturer works to eliminate his or her job. If you make a car last longer, there will be fewer sold and you will work yourself out of a job. If you do NOT make the car last longer...competition will drive you out and you will be without a job.

Today there are some major things happening and none bigger than the deployment of the autonomous car expected in a couple of years and who knows how this plays out for many. I can sum up my leans and that is to get the government out of the many of things they are in. I'm unaware of any time a politician knew anything about education along with supts...principals and many teachers...they can't discern data, don't have time to discern it or just don't have a background. The idiots are not just corralled in the automotive as they have found employment elsewhere.

We never just got really dumb overnight...it has been quite a process...like Krausening ;) more problems down teh road...

http://freebeacon.com/issues/unfunded-liabilities-state-public-pensions-top-6-trillion-2017/
 
If it was Bush who pushed Net Neutrality and Obama overturned it, people would be partying in the streets.

Just remember Net Neutrality was passed in closed door meetings away from the public eye and you only learned about it after it was enacted.
Net Neutrality was about more than the internet. There were other provisions that gave the Government the ability to control or stop other media outlets as well. Think talk radio. Government exists to protect us from harm. It was never meant to control us.
 
I am glad it's gone. The Patriot Act wasn't patriotic, Affordable Care Act wasn't affordable and Net Neutrality wasn't neutral. It was a democrat scheme to gain control of the internet and would have been weaponized just as the IRS, FBI and DOJ are now. Net Neutrality is a massive tax scheme that would have driven our internet usage costs way up to provide Obama-phone style internet to poor urban areas.
 
Net Neutrality was about more than the internet. There were other provisions that gave the Government the ability to control or stop other media outlets as well. Think talk radio. Government exists to protect us from harm. It was never meant to control us.
Good point.

The issue with Net Neutrality speaks to a larger societal issue - people read something on a message board, Facebook, Twitter or see a celebrity give their opinion and then it becomes fact. People are quick to parrot out large numbers like "80% this" or "70% that" with 0 effort given to how that number was generated or where it came from.

Just remember, people didn't believe black swans existed because no one had seen one. Did that prove they didn't exist? No, because there are black swans.
 
Good point.

The issue with Net Neutrality speaks to a larger societal issue - people read something on a message board, Facebook, Twitter or see a celebrity give their opinion and then it becomes fact. People are quick to parrot out large numbers like "80% this" or "70% that" with 0 effort given to how that number was generated or where it came from.

Just remember, people didn't believe black swans existed because no one had seen one. Did that prove they didn't exist? No, because there are black swans.
From what I saw in their meeting yesterday, the head of the FCC stated it would not be used to do what most people believe might happen and gave his promise about that. Stated that the Internet has been revolutionary and needs to stay free, which I think every one agrees with. If what he said and promised doesn't come to fruition, it'll be a massive backlash against the GOP. Now, it still has to get through Congress BUT if the things that have been said could happen actually do happen....there is going to be pissed off people on both sides of the aisle.

And I believe you are pointing out my numbers I 'threw out there.' Here is a piece from an article that I read about support or dissent to Net Neutrality:

"The survey by the university's Program for Public Consultation and Voice of the People, a nonpartisan polling organization, concluded that 83 percent of Americans do not approve of the FCC proposal. Just 16 percent said they approved."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ublicans-was-striking/?utm_term=.0c2e29f7f23b
 
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Net Neutrality was about more than the internet. There were other provisions that gave the Government the ability to control or stop other media outlets as well. Think talk radio. Government exists to protect us from harm. It was never meant to control us.
There are people that like that control and fight like hell when you try to remove it.
 
Most everything ends up 40% better than the haters predict and 40% worse than the lovers predict. It's the 80-20 rule.... Although I am concerned about highly polical entities buying large numbers of media outlets.
 
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Sorry for the political post, but this might end up impacting all if us.

If you hadn't heard, the vote to repeal Net Neutrality passed yesterday and opens the door for ISPs to pull some major shenanigans on us consumers.

Things can get so bad that it possibly can even impact your access to this site and any others, unless you pay more.

I encourage all of you to research this and then call your congressmen to try and get this stopped (I'd you oppose it).

Again sorry for the political and dire post, I just thought it was important enough, for all of us, that it needed brought up.

Thanks. Now we can go back to bickering :)
Hmmm the real question for some on here is will it help Purdue play a zone defense.....

For the record I like our man to man defense....call me old school.

Happy Holidays!
 
Good point.

The issue with Net Neutrality speaks to a larger societal issue - people read something on a message board, Facebook, Twitter or see a celebrity give their opinion and then it becomes fact. People are quick to parrot out large numbers like "80% this" or "70% that" with 0 effort given to how that number was generated or where it came from.

Just remember, people didn't believe black swans existed because no one had seen one. Did that prove they didn't exist? No, because there are black swans.
That's is kinda why I told people to research this on their own to make their own decison. I'm a right leaning independent and have been all my adult life as I try to find a common middle ground on all issues. This issue to me however, is a huge deal based on what I do for a living.

Here is something else to consider, how things were before NN was brought up and I would say that isn't an apples to apples comparison anymore. The social climate is vastly different than before and people are much more spiteful. It wouldn't shock me it all to see some ISP *cough* Comcast *cough* institute "fast lanes" just because it can now.
 
From what I saw in their meeting yesterday, the head of the FCC stated it would not be used to do what most people believe might happen and gave his promise about that. Stated that the Internet has been revolutionary and needs to stay free, which I think every one agrees with. If what he said and promised doesn't come to fruition, it'll be a massive backlash against the GOP. Now, it still has to get through Congress BUT if the things that have been said could happen actually do happen....there is going to be pissed off people on both sides of the aisle.

And I believe you are pointing out my numbers I 'threw out there.' Here is a piece from an article that I read about support or dissent to Net Neutrality:

"The survey by the university's Program for Public Consultation and Voice of the People, a nonpartisan polling organization, concluded that 83 percent of Americans do not approve of the FCC proposal. Just 16 percent said they approved."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ublicans-was-striking/?utm_term=.0c2e29f7f23b
First, thanks for sharing the "proof behind the pudding" on those numbers. I have seen a lot of people stating those and had no idea where they came from.

Reading through those questions on the survey, it isn't surprising they elicited the responses they did. This proposal is basically giving ISPs a license to steal from consumers. As someone who creates surveys for market research, you word questions like this to get 80% response rate in your favor.

Second, I do not believe that this has to have congressional approval. Congress would have to create legislation to put it back under Title II which with the current inability of congress to do anything meaningful, I doubt that will happen.

Hopefully we can all just take a chill pill and remember that Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Rivals, Amazon etc were all created before Net Neutrality was created. A lot of the hype around NN was created around these obscure hypothetical situations that have a small chance of happening. IF I am wrong, I will post my PO Box on here so we can all keep in touch.
 
That's is kinda why I told people to research this on their own to make their own decison. I'm a right leaning independent and have been all my adult life as I try to find a common middle ground on all issues. This issue to me however, is a huge deal based on what I do for a living.

Here is something else to consider, how things were before NN was brought up and I would say that isn't an apples to apples comparison anymore. The social climate is vastly different than before and people are much more spiteful. It wouldn't shock me it all to see some ISP *cough* Comcast *cough* institute "fast lanes" just because it can now.
Research is something we should do on all topics that are important. The challenge for most people is they fail to get past the 1st page of a Google search. Google doesn't actually share the official results of how many people go further in their searches but most say it is around 80% stop after page 1. As someone who works in the world of SEO, you know the tricks to get yourself on that first page because you know people don't go much further than that. A simple search of Net Neutrality, you have to get to page 3 or 4 before you find articles that are for getting rid of Net Neutrality.

An example I like to share with people as a citizen of Texas is our deregulated electricity market. I am currently in the process of renewing my electricity and I have about 20 different plan options to shop through to get the best rate based on my usage. This blew my mind when I moved here after living in Indiana my entire life where my choice was made for me.
 
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How did the internet work before Net Neutrality?
Cord cutting was much less pervasive than it is today.

My best hope is that 5g cellular technologies give consumers a strong enough alternative to traditional cable and fiber that the consumer has the leverage to vote with his wallet. This will require consumers to be fairly savvy, but I expect that ISP providers will be punished by the market for blocking services such as NetFlix, Hulu, and Sling.
 
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Cord cutting was much less pervasive than it is today.

My best hope is that 5g cellular technologies give consumers a strong enough alternative to traditional cable and fiber that the consumer has the leverage to vote with his wallet. This will require consumers to be fairly savvy, but I expect that ISP providers will be punished by the market for blocking services such as NetFlix, Hulu, and Sling.

I think that is exactly what will happen. ISP's will be hesitant to do anything that restricts traffic because people will switch services as many do have a choice. So while they have the right to do so, I don't think they are dumb enough to do it as it would cause a mass exodus from their service.
 
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Cord cutting was much less pervasive than it is today.

My best hope is that 5g cellular technologies give consumers a strong enough alternative to traditional cable and fiber that the consumer has the leverage to vote with his wallet. This will require consumers to be fairly savvy, but I expect that ISP providers will be punished by the market for blocking services such as NetFlix, Hulu, and Sling.

That is something the former FCC chairman brought up and one of the problems in his eyes was that investments were down 18% and in order to provide the 5G infrastructure they needed to boost the market back up to afford it... The article is about the MSNBC host getting destroyed but if you watch the video he has a pretty solid anti NN argument.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/12/14/m...rality-debate-with-former-fcc-chairman-video/
 
That is something the former FCC chairman brought up and one of the problems in his eyes was that investments were down 18% and in order to provide the 5G infrastructure they needed to boost the market back up to afford it.
This is where people probably diverge the most in terms of political view points but I believe a company knows the best way to invest their capital/resources to grow their business. The government shouldn't be interjecting and telling them they need to invest more.
 
This is where people probably diverge the most in terms of political view points but I believe a company knows the best way to invest their capital/resources to grow their business. The government shouldn't be interjecting and telling them they need to invest more.
I agree with that.. I think he was saying the governments intervention has hurt investments and taking the gov. out of it will help boost investments and confidence. Unless I misunderstood him... I am a big anti-government guy.
 
I think that is exactly what will happen. ISP's will be hesitant to do anything that restricts traffic because people will switch services as many do have a choice. So while they have the right to do so, I don't think they are dumb enough to do it as it would cause a mass exodus from their service.
I think the effects will be more subtle and the choices will become broader.
1. Comcast (whoever owns them) and the other MAJORS will create a Netlix/hulu competitor
2. Netfilx and hulu will become subtley slower, have a few glitches, then get slower during prime viewing times
3. the Comcast competitor will be faster and more reliable
4. Comcast service will somehow begin to insert political ads.
 
I think the effects will be more subtle and the choices will become broader.
1. Comcast (whoever owns them) and the other MAJORS will create a Netlix/hulu competitor
2. Netfilx and hulu will become subtley slower, have a few glitches, then get slower during prime viewing times
3. the Comcast competitor will be faster and more reliable
4. Comcast service will somehow begin to insert political ads.
Not unlikely, except Comcast et al are such whores that political commercials will be open to any side of an argument if they are willing to pay. I have no faith in any promises of fairness nor consumer protection unless such somehow works to the provider's financial benefit. It has always seemed to me that Comcast has always been of the more extreme version of "me first" mentality.
 
Some of the shenanigans pulled by IPs that led to the net neutrality rules.

MADISON RIVER:
In 2005, North Carolina ISP Madison River Communications blocked the voice-over-internet protocol (VOIP) service Vonage. Vonage filed a complaint with the FCC after receiving a slew of customer complaints. The FCC stepped in to sanction Madison River and prevent further blocking, but it lacks the authority to stop this kind of abuse today.

COMCAST: In 2005, the nation’s largest ISP, Comcast, began secretly blocking peer-to-peer technologies that its customers were using over its network. Users of services like BitTorrent and Gnutella were unable to connect to these services. 2007 investigations from the Associated Press, the Electronic Frontier Foundation and others confirmed that Comcast was indeed blocking or slowing file-sharing applications without disclosing this fact to its customers.

TELUS: In 2005, Canada’s second-largest telecommunications company, Telus, began blocking access to a server that hosted a website supporting a labor strike against the company. Researchers at Harvard and the University of Toronto found that this action resulted in Telus blocking an additional 766 unrelated sites.

AT&T: From 2007–2009, AT&T forced Apple to block Skype and other competing VOIP phone services on the iPhone. The wireless provider wanted to prevent iPhone users from using any application that would allow them to make calls on such “over-the-top” voice services. The Google Voice app received similar treatment from carriers like AT&T when it came on the scene in 2009.

WINDSTREAM: In 2010, Windstream Communications, a DSL provider with more than 1 million customers at the time, copped to hijacking user-search queries made using the Google toolbar within Firefox. Users who believed they had set the browser to the search engine of their choice were redirected to Windstream’s own search portal and results.

MetroPCS: In 2011, MetroPCS, at the time one of the top-five U.S. wireless carriers, announced plans to block streaming video over its 4G network from all sources except YouTube. MetroPCS then threw its weight behind Verizon’s court challenge against the FCC’s 2010 open internet ruling, hoping that rejection of the agency’s authority would allow the company to continue its anti-consumer practices.

PAXFIRE: In 2011, the Electronic Frontier Foundation found that several small ISPs were redirecting search queries via the vendor Paxfire. The ISPs identified in the initial Electronic Frontier Foundation report included Cavalier, Cogent, Frontier, Fuse, DirecPC, RCN and Wide Open West. Paxfire would intercept a person’s search request at Bing and Yahoo and redirect it to another page. By skipping over the search service’s results, the participating ISPs would collect referral fees for delivering users to select websites.

AT&T, SPRINT and VERIZON: From 2011–2013, AT&T, Sprint and Verizon blocked Google Wallet, a mobile-payment system that competed with a similar service called Isis, which all three companies had a stake in developing.

EUROPE: A 2012 report from the Body of European Regulators for Electronic Communications found that violations of Net Neutrality affected at least one in five users in Europe. The report found that blocked or slowed connections to services like VOIP, peer-to-peer technologies, gaming applications and email were commonplace.

VERIZON: In 2012, the FCC caught Verizon Wireless blocking people from using tethering applications on their phones. Verizon had asked Google to remove 11 free tethering applications from the Android marketplace. These applications allowed users to circumvent Verizon’s $20 tethering fee and turn their smartphones into Wi-Fi hot spots. By blocking those applications, Verizon violated a Net Neutrality pledge it made to the FCC as a condition of the 2008 airwaves auction.

AT&T: In 2012, AT&T announced that it would disable the FaceTime video-calling app on its customers’ iPhones unless they subscribed to a more expensive text-and-voice plan. AT&T had one goal in mind: separating customers from more of their money by blocking alternatives to AT&T’s own products.

VERIZON: During oral arguments in Verizon v. FCC in 2013, judges asked whether the phone giant would favor some preferred services, content or sites over others if the court overruled the agency’s existing open internet rules. Verizon counsel Helgi Walker had this to say: “I’m authorized to state from my client today that but for these rules we would be exploring those types of arrangements.” Walker’s admission might have gone unnoticed had she not repeated it on at least five separate occasions during arguments.


Telecoms have a rich history of screwing their customers and competitors at every opportunity and I fully believe this ruling will give them plentiful opportunities. There is a chance that we will have some sort of wireless revolution that will increase competition to the point that this will become a moot issue, but I wouldn't count on it. It also is going to face serious legal challenges in the courts.
I expect in the near future, if they aren't held up by the courts, isps will use this opportunity to draw increased revenues off of content providers and consumers alike. It will most likely be unpleasant for the majority of people and I hope we can hold those who supported this accountable.
 
Yea, there’s no history of companies royally screwing customers over without government regulation.... That’s all businesses do anymore is to try and find a way to squeeze every last dime out of you without you knowing.

If you don’t think Comcast or another ISP will do some shady shit to f*** you over by making you buy their services or platforms, you are out of your mind.
 
Yea, there’s no history of companies royally screwing customers over without government regulation.... That’s all businesses do anymore is to try and find a way to squeeze every last dime out of you without you knowing.

If you don’t think Comcast or another ISP will do some shady shit to f*** you over by making you buy their services or platforms, you are out of your mind.
No one is making you buy anything, if you don't like it cancel it.
 
VERIZON: During oral arguments in Verizon v. FCC in 2013, judges asked whether the phone giant would favor some preferred services, content or sites over others if the court overruled the agency’s existing open internet rules. Verizon counsel Helgi Walker had this to say: “I’m authorized to state from my client today that but for these rules we would be exploring those types of arrangements.” Walker’s admission might have gone unnoticed had she not repeated it on at least five separate occasions during arguments.
.
So in 2013, before NN was enacted, there were rules preventing Verizon from playing favorites. And those are the rules we are going back to. So what's the problem?
 
Congress has like a $15 million dollar slush fund to pay off sexual assault accusers but everyone is up in arms that internet providers may charge more....

100% deregulation is not a sustainable platform, but at the same time the more things you can keep the government out of the better.
 
Putin?... OMG, I typed Ptitno, and some outside force changed it .. Rut roh
I think most career politicians fit that mode. every principal should sub for teachers at least some to stay tuned in and every politician needs to stay current with the real world. instead, the cash cow gets fed by continuous life long learning as though teaching children to read should be soooooooooooooo different
I think the effects will be more subtle and the choices will become broader.
1. Comcast (whoever owns them) and the other MAJORS will create a Netlix/hulu competitor
2. Netfilx and hulu will become subtley slower, have a few glitches, then get slower during prime viewing times
3. the Comcast competitor will be faster and more reliable
4. Comcast service will somehow begin to insert political ads.
I can definitely see the political ads... ;)
 
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I think most career politicians fit that mode. every principal should sub for teachers at least some to stay tuned in and every politician needs to stay current with the real world. instead, the cash cow gets fed by continuous life long learning as though teaching children to read should be soooooooooooooo different

I can definitely see the political ads... ;)

This ^^^ You would be amazed how many administrators, district specialists, and other non essential personnel that we do not need say to us teachers "What we would give to be back in the classroom" Uh huh well come on in.
 
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