Now that the cat is out of the bag, how will this play out? NCAA ruling

[purduepat1969]

The evolution of sports has been taking place for decades.

From Title IX, to the Transfer Portal, to the NCAA vs. Alston, it's been a path of evolution.

Old farts pining for "the good ole days" will never end ~ they got over the 3-point shot, and the designated hitter.

Some will get over this issue; others won't; but, in the end, it won't matter what they do.

The evolution of college sports has NEVER had a change of this proportion where players got paid. It's not about "the good ole days" or "old farts pining". It's about a change that threatens the existence of college sports as we know it. If you haven't figured that out quite yet, your thinking isn't so broad...

 

[bumpstock]

This is not an issue of "(o)ld farts pining for 'the good ole days'," nor is some adjustment to a game like a three point line. (WTH?) It's an issue of people recognizing what's right and what's wrong.

You have a long road ahead of you if wish to take decades and decades of policy ... policy that categorized and characterized a certain level of conduct as insidious, poisonous, and corrupt... and expect people with ethics, morals, and a sense of fair play, to suddenly smile, put on a happy face, and call it the new norm.

You can "get over it" if you choose. Many others will continue to call it what it is. Will it matter? Clearly, not to you. But, it does.

You obviously weren't paying attention when the world passed you by.

"...ethics, morals, and a sense of fair play..." are buried in the 20th Century. OJ Simpson is playing golf, and Bill Cosby is home eating caviar.

 

[HoosierTim]

The evolution of sports has been taking place for decades.

From Title IX, to the Transfer Portal, to the NCAA vs. Alston, it's been a path of evolution.

Old farts pining for "the good ole days" will never end ~ they got over the 3-point shot, and the designated hitter.

Some will get over this issue; others won't; but, in the end, it won't matter what they do.

I'm not so concerned about college athletes getting paid to play a sport as much as I am with college athletics as we know it coming to an end. Football and basketball players, the sports you see on TV, make up just a small percentage of D1 athletes. Non-revenue sports are going to change dramatically and may even be eliminated altogether without an NCAA regulating body.

 

[bumpstock]

I'm not so concerned about college athletes getting paid to play a sport as much as I am with college athletics as we know it coming to an end. Football and basketball players, the sports you see on TV, make up just a small percentage of D1 athletes. Non-revenue sports are going to change dramatically and may even be eliminated altogether without an NCAA regulating body. As a former 2 sport D1 athlete, this is near and dear to me.

Non-revenue sports aren't going to change dramatically - but their budgets will. Daddy's cancelled the credit cards. Take the bus, not the plane; Motel-6, not the 4-star hotel.

It's wonderful that you're grateful for what you had, but you were fortunate to have had it. Daddy lost his job, and can't pay for your younger siblings to enjoy what you had.

On a stronger position (it's not my position), some believe you weren't entitled to what you got, and that you took it from those who paid for it (M-FB/M-BB).

 

[BCfanatic2020]

I'm not so concerned about college athletes getting paid to play a sport as much as I am with college athletics as we know it coming to an end. Football and basketball players, the sports you see on TV, make up just a small percentage of D1 athletes. Non-revenue sports are going to change dramatically and may even be eliminated altogether without an NCAA regulating body.

This first line is critical. You can’t even believe in aspects of capitalism without believing that if you create value, you should share in what you create.

if you play a revenue sport, you should be compensated based on the value your sport creates. I’m all for counting the value of tuition as part of that compensation, but when a school has a football team that created 5 million extra dollars in revenue, it shouldn’t just be a scholarship.

I know guys who played big ten football. Not only is it a full time commitment and not only will it do lasting damage to your body and brain, but you don’t even get meals for the entire week covered and you can’t work more than a paltry amount of hours. I’m all for covering the entire cost of attendance and saying “you know what Tommy, instead of it being a 60 hour a week commitment.. SHOW UP LIKE AN AMATEUR for a much smaller commitment and then if you wanna wait tables all week, go ahead. I have a very hard time telling someone they can’t work AND then doubling back and saying “oh also, you are an amateur and you don’t get to weekend meals.”

that said, I’m for them getting paid, not getting paid NFL salaries. There had to have been a way to do this without it becoming as sleazy as I know it’s about to get.

 

[Purdue85]

You obviously weren't paying attention when the world passed you by.

"...ethics, morals, and a sense of fair play..." are buried in the 20th Century. OJ Simpson is playing golf, and Bill Cosby is home eating caviar.

the world hasn't passed me by, nor has "right" and "wrong" left the world.

There have always been "wrongs" and injustices. Simpson and Cosby are simply the current versions.

But, it's interesting to see them being used as justification...

 

[HoosierTim]

This first line is critical. You can’t even believe in aspects of capitalism without believing that if you create value, you should share in what you create.

if you play a revenue sport, you should be compensated based on the value your sport creates. I’m all for counting the value of tuition as part of that compensation, but when a school has a football team that created 5 million extra dollars in revenue, it shouldn’t just be a scholarship.

I know guys who played big ten football. Not only is it a full time commitment and not only will it do lasting damage to your body and brain, but you don’t even get meals for the entire week covered and you can’t work more than a paltry amount of hours. I’m all for covering the entire cost of attendance and saying “you know what Tommy, instead of it being a 60 hour a week commitment.. SHOW UP LIKE AN AMATEUR for a much smaller commitment and then if you wanna wait tables all week, go ahead. I have a very hard time telling someone they can’t work AND then doubling back and saying “oh also, you are an amateur and you don’t get to weekend meals.”

that said, I’m for them getting paid, not getting paid NFL salaries. There had to have been a way to do this without it becoming as sleazy as I know it’s about to get.

To be fair, I played B10 football, on scholarship. I also finished my career on the IU baseball team. I understand the grind and commitment it takes to play a D1 sport, especially a sport like football. I never once thought I was being "exploited" and that I deserved a bigger piece of the pie. But on the other hand, I knew a ton of guys who did feel that way, and some had legitimate gripes. But the majority of D1 athletes regardless of the sport, aren't worth the value of their scholarship in a free market. As an out of state resident, IU likely spent anywhere from $60-75k on me alone just to attend school, to house me, to feed me, to train me, etc.

But the Zion Williamson's, the Trevor Lawrence's of the world don't represent the average D1 athlete. Not by a long shot. The argument that players should be paid so that they can afford to eat out on the weekend is nonsense. There's plenty of arguments to be made as to why players should be compensated, but that isn't one of them. If you went to bed hungry on a weekend, that was your own damn fault. I had access to meals almost 24 hours a day and most days during the week would bring leftovers home to roommates who were non-athletes.

I would have been in favor of some type of stipend that gets allocated toward your monthly scholarship check. Call it an allowance. But I understand the issues this creates. Due to Title IX regulations, it would have had to been fair compensation between all the sports. Revenue generating athletes would have felt they weren't getting enough despite generating all the money and non-generating sport athletes would have felt slighted despite putting in equal amount of work and dedication.

Bottom line, the NCAA had their chance to at least do something, as opposed to nothing, and failed to do so and it's a reason why things have gotten to where they are now.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

To be fair, I played B10 football, on scholarship. I also finished my career on the IU baseball team. I understand the grind and commitment it takes to play a D1 sport, especially a sport like football. I never once thought I was being "exploited" and that I deserved a bigger piece of the pie. But on the other hand, I knew a ton of guys who did feel that way, and some had legitimate gripes. But the majority of D1 athletes regardless of the sport, aren't worth the value of their scholarship in a free market. As an out of state resident, IU likely spent anywhere from $60-75k on me alone just to attend school, to house me, to feed me, to train me, etc.

But the Zion Williamson's, the Trevor Lawrence's of the world don't represent the average D1 athlete. Not by a long shot. The argument that players should be paid so that they can afford to eat out on the weekend is nonsense. There's plenty of arguments to be made as to why players should be compensated, but that isn't one of them. If you went to bed hungry on a weekend, that was your own damn fault. I had access to meals almost 24 hours a day and most days during the week would bring leftovers home to roommates who were non-athletes.

I would have been in favor of some type of stipend that gets allocated toward your monthly scholarship check. Call it an allowance. But I understand the issues this creates. Due to Title IX regulations, it would have had to been fair compensation between all the sports. Revenue generating athletes would have felt they weren't getting enough despite generating all the money and non-generating sport athletes would have felt slighted despite putting in equal amount of work and dedication.

Bottom line, the NCAA had their chance to at least do something, as opposed to nothing, and failed to do so and it's a reason why things have gotten to where they are now.

Ok before I delve into too much of this.. here is the understanding I have from members of an early 00s big ten championship team (not Purdue)

> you don’t get fed on the weekends period
> it’s a 65 hour a week commitment in season
> you can’t work more than a minimal amount of hours during the school year
> if you’re a starter you’ll likely never be compensated for the lasting damage to body and brain (which I’ve seen)

so again, I’m not really desiring to have these guys living the lavish life that we all know they live at the powerhouses anyway. But.. if you’re an amateur.. 60 hours a week doesn’t seem right. “Hey show up to practice and the games and then to make your money” sounds right.

also, many teams with no Trevor Lawrence or drew Brees or any big future NFL star make more than enough to cover their expenses and make millions for the rest of the department and schools. Surely you can cut them a piece of some pie. If you do, I highly doubt that that will ever approach the value they create.

but you played, so maybe you can tell me that those guys were all full of beans and give me your understanding.

and again, despite my stance, I know that they aren’t about to do anything that’s something other than sleazy as you know what.

 

[HoosierTim]

> you don’t get fed on the weekends period
> it’s a 65 hour a week commitment in season
> you can’t work more than a minimal amount of hours during the school year
> if you’re a starter you’ll likely never be compensated for the lasting damage to body and brain (which I’ve seen)

1. That simply isn't true, at least it wasn't for me. During the season we always had a team meal, or two depending on the start time of the game. They called it "Training Tables" at IU and yes that was only a M-F typed deal with access to much better/quality food, but our meal plans were covered at every Student dining hall and those were open on the weekend.

2. That seems about right, between school/practice/film/weights a 9 hour day M-Sat seems right. It comes with the territory though. You know that signing your national letter of intent.

3. I would agree that working and playing a D1 sport isn't practical.

4. That's a choice. There isn't a football player alive today that doesn't know that consequences that come with playing a violent game.

 

[Purdue85]

Ok before I delve into too much of this.. here is the understanding I have from members of an early 00s big ten championship team (not Purdue)

> you don’t get fed on the weekends period
> it’s a 65 hour a week commitment in season
> you can’t work more than a minimal amount of hours during the school year
> if you’re a starter you’ll likely never be compensated for the lasting damage to body and brain (which I’ve seen)

so again, I’m not really desiring to have these guys living the lavish life that we all know they live at the powerhouses anyway. But.. if you’re an amateur.. 60 hours a week doesn’t seem right. “Hey show up to practice and the games and then to make your money” sounds right.

also, many teams with no Trevor Lawrence or drew Brees or any big future NFL star make more than enough to cover their expenses and make millions for the rest of the department and schools. Surely you can cut them a piece of some pie. If you do, I highly doubt that that will ever approach the value they create.

but you played, so maybe you can tell me that those guys were all full of beans and give me your understanding.

and again, despite my stance, I know that they aren’t about to do anything that’s something other than sleazy as you know what.

there's so much wrong with that.

All athletes have "lasting damage" to their body. I'll leave my own issues out of it, but I married a D1 athlete who deals with knee pain daily. To suggest there should be some form of "compensation" because an amateur athlete chose to receive a scholarship to continue playing the sport he/she loves is beyond bizarre.

 

[FirstDownB]

1. That simply isn't true, at least it wasn't for me. During the season we always had a team meal, or two depending on the start time of the game. They called it "Training Tables" at IU and yes that was only a M-F typed deal with access to much better/quality food, but our meal plans were covered at every Student dining hall and those were open on the weekend.

2. That seems about right, between school/practice/film/weights a 9 hour day M-Sat seems right. It comes with the territory though. You know that signing your national letter of intent.

3. I would agree that working and playing a D1 sport isn't practical.

4. That's a choice. There isn't a football player alive today that doesn't know that consequences that come with playing a violent game.

Knocked that one out of the park. Apparently if it’s such a horrible life, then in fact the scholarship, training, and exposure they receive must be great compensation for guys to keep signing up for it. Also I’d be curious to hear what he thinks about high school athletes who receive much less compensation but also take big hits and often have to work very hard. Those kids must be totally nuts to do that for nothing.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

there's so much wrong with that.

All athletes have "lasting damage" to their body. I'll leave my own issues out of it, but I married a D1 athlete who deals with knee pain daily. To suggest there should be some form of "compensation" because an amateur athlete chose to receive a scholarship to continue playing the sport he/she loves is beyond bizarre.

It’s not bizarre. That was part of the understanding I gave him. Nowhere did I say it’s the main reason for the compensation. Here’s a reason…

“we don’t cover the full cost of attendance but we want a 60 hour a week commitment in season (I.e the commitment a professional gives).”
“Can I work?”
“Not really.” (Understanding I was given was like 9 hours a week).

do the math on the value Purdue football creates then subtract the tuition and I guarantee you you aren’t back at $0.

also, knee pain daily isn’t even close.. some are fine, some are in bad shape.

 

[HoosierTim]

Knocked that one out of the park. Apparently if it’s such a horrible life, then in fact the scholarship, training, and exposure they receive must be great compensation for guys to keep signing up for it. Also I’d be curious to hear what he thinks about high school athletes who receive much less compensation but also take big hits and often have to work very hard. Those kids must be totally nuts to do that for nothing.

It's all perspective. You could talk to 100 current or former D1 athletes and you'd get a different outlook from each one. What you put in is what you get out.

For me, being a professional athlete was always a dream of mine. Getting a D1 scholarship was a step in that direction, but I found out rather quickly that my sh*t does in fact stink and that college athletics is a completely different animal from high school sports. I knew rather quickly that dream was going to be just that, a dream. So I took full advantage of the opportunity that was given to me and made the most of it. That unfortunately wasn't the case for many of my former teammates. Many were told from day 1 they were the greatest thing in the world and that college was just a stepping point. Knew so many people who took the opportunity they were given and completely wasted it.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

1. That simply isn't true, at least it wasn't for me. During the season we always had a team meal, or two depending on the start time of the game. They called it "Training Tables" at IU and yes that was only a M-F typed deal with access to much better/quality food, but our meal plans were covered at every Student dining hall and those were open on the weekend.

2. That seems about right, between school/practice/film/weights a 9 hour day M-Sat seems right. It comes with the territory though. You know that signing your national letter of intent.

3. I would agree that working and playing a D1 sport isn't practical.

4. That's a choice. There isn't a football player alive today that doesn't know that consequences that come with playing a violent game.

First, I really appreciate your input and setting me straight as to point one. Please don’t take me expressing my ideas as disrespect. You lived it. I’m just a fan.

1. okay well I can only go by what I was given. Maybe they meant “on the weekend the food sucks.” I’ll double back and ask.

2. Yeah, the entire idea is renegotiating what you’re signing. If a dude is out there barely talking right 10 years later, I’m pretty good with him getting a much greater percentage of what he creates. Because no one is showing up to watch a building that will be built because of what he creates. Again, let’s make sure we are clear. Living decently. Not living like they probably already do at some schools.

3. and that’s where my big problem comes in. Telling someone they have to live x lifestyle if their parents are broke is one thing. Telling someone they can’t go out and work to create the lifestyle they want is unAmerican.

This is where I believe that the talk show radio guest is saved. They rely on saying what you just said and then the segment ends and no one is there to ask more questions. Where as, if you had them in a classroom with a white board and you could ask “okay, so if it’s amateurism, then why the 60 hour commitment while also telling them they can’t take money and can’t work?”

I have no problem with a gym teacher saying “who wants to come out and be an amateur and represent your school” where you get nothing, not even a scholarship. But then that is probably much more like .. hey go to 5 three hour practices a week, show up to the game and then go to school and work. If it’s all about principle, then you have the IV league who has no scholarships correct?

4. I’m not seeing how this changes wanting to negotiate a better deal. You’re simply saying “let’s talk about what the choice entails.”

Here’s the irony. If people had come to the table and given a little… If they had said “hey at the end of the day if you are a big ten football player, what you get vs what you create is way down here, let’s bring it up here just this much so that they feel like ‘hey this is a really good deal, .. they still will be well below what they create” there could have been a system created that made college football about the same and just as fun to watch.

now?? It’s gonna go so far past what I’d like to see that I really doubt I’ll enjoy following within a few years.

there was a way to do this where Ohio state isn’t buying kids to be 3rd string so that Iowa and Michigan state don’t get a good starter AND so that they can have a Purdue starting caliber X position as their third string to load up against Alabama for what will eventually become the power 16.

.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

It's all perspective. You could talk to 100 current or former D1 athletes and you'd get a different outlook from each one. What you put in is what you get out.

For me, being a professional athlete was always a dream of mine. Getting a D1 scholarship was a step in that direction, but I found out rather quickly that my sh*t does in fact stink and that college athletics is a completely different animal from high school sports. I knew rather quickly that dream was going to be just that, a dream. So I took full advantage of the opportunity that was given to me and made the most of it. That unfortunately wasn't the case for many of my former teammates. Many were told from day 1 they were the greatest thing in the world and that college was just a stepping point. Knew so many people who took the opportunity they were given and completely wasted it.

Mind you, when I say I talked to former big ten players, both are doing quite well. This was hardly a “I got robbed” story lol.

 

[HoosierTim]

First, I really appreciate your input and setting me straight as to point one. Please don’t take me expressing my ideas as disrespect. You lived it. I’m just a fan.

1. okay well I can only go by what I was given. Maybe they meant “on the weekend the food sucks.” I’ll double back and ask.

2. Yeah, the entire idea is renegotiating what you’re signing. If a dude is out there barely talking right 10 years later, I’m pretty good with him getting a much greater percentage of what he creates. Because no one is showing up to watch a building that will be built because of what he creates. Again, let’s make sure we are clear. Living decently. Not living like they probably already do at some schools.

3. and that’s where my big problem comes in. Telling someone they have to live x lifestyle if their parents are broke is one thing. Telling someone they can’t go out and work to create the lifestyle they want is unAmerican.

This is where I believe that the talk show radio guest is saved. They rely on saying what you just said and then the segment ends and no one is there to ask more questions. Where as, if you had them in a classroom with a white board and you could ask “okay, so if it’s amateurism, then why the 60 hour commitment while also telling them they can’t take money and can’t work?”

I have no problem with a gym teacher saying “who wants to come out and be an amateur and represent your school” where you get nothing, not even a scholarship. But then that is probably much more like .. hey go to 5 three hour practices a week, show up to the game and then go to school and work. If it’s all about principle, then you have the IV league who has no scholarships correct?

4. I’m not seeing how this changes wanting to negotiate a better deal. You’re simply saying “let’s talk about what the choice entails.”

Here’s the irony. If people had come to the table and given a little… If they had said “hey at the end of the day if you are a big ten football player, what you get vs what you create is way down here, let’s bring it up here just this much so that they feel like ‘hey this is a really good deal, .. they still will be well below what they create” there could have been a system created that made college football about the same and just as fun to watch.

now?? It’s gonna go so far past what I’d like to see that I really doubt I’ll enjoy following within a few years.

there was a way to do this where Ohio state isn’t buying kids to be 3rd string so that Iowa and Michigan state don’t get a good starter AND so that they can have a Purdue starting caliber X position as their third string to load up against Alabama for what will eventually become the power 16.

.

Your point 3 is where we differ the most. Nobody is forcing anyone's hand to sign a national letter of intent to play a D1 sport. It is totally voluntarily and one can be released from their scholarship at any point. There are several other avenues in playing a sport for real dollars after high school instead of playing D1 athletics with a scholarship being the form of compensation. And that's because most understand that playing a D1 sports garnish the most exposure.

 

[HoosierTim]

Mind you, when I say I talked to former big ten players, both are doing quite well. This was hardly a “I got robbed” story lol.

I know several former athletes who are doing quite well. I know a ton who aren't and it has nothing to do with wear and tear on their bodies and everything to do with wasting a golden opportunity and feel like they were somehow wronged. Those old NCAA commercials about "going pro in something else" is a real thing. Some realize that and some don't.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

Your point 3 is where we differ the most. Nobody is forcing anyone's hand to sign a national letter of intent to play a D1 sport. It is totally voluntarily and one can be released from their scholarship at any point. There are several other avenues in playing a sport for real dollars after high school instead of playing D1 athletics with a scholarship being the form of compensation. And that's because most understand that playing a D1 sports garnish the most exposure.

This is a fair point of course, but do you see how even though that’s true, we are probably about to end up with a worse product where they get paid far more than I’m advocating? Would you rather they get …paid … or legally bought for huge dollars?

also, in football you’re kind of forced. I’d be all for getting rid of rules that stop early entry. Heck, I’d be all for creating a minor league and/or going straight amateur at the schools.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

I know several former athletes who are doing quite well. I know a ton who aren't and it has nothing to do with wear and tear on their bodies and everything to do with wasting a golden opportunity and feel like they were somehow wronged. Those old NCAA commercials about "going pro in something else" is a real thing. Some realize that and some don't.

Yes, unfortunately that is the case. The point I was making is that many who ended up doing quite well seem to have a feeling that it could be a better deal. AND by not making it marginally better, it’s about to become way better apparently. In a way that might not be better but rather “better”

thanks for giving me your insight. It’s greatly appreciated and we aren’t entirely far off

 

[HoosierTim]

This is a fair point of course, but do you see how even though that’s true, we are probably about to end up with a worse product where they get paid far more than I’m advocating? Would you rather they get …paid … or legally bought for huge dollars?

Not to get lost in all of this, I really don't mind players now having the ability to profit off their NIL. That isn't really my concern. My concern is the charade that this going to follow that I believe will ultimately end collegiate sports as we know it. I agree there is nothing amateur about P5 football and basketball, but there are hundreds of thousands of scholarship athletes who do follow under the amateur status in the non-revenue generating sports who are going to suffer greatly. You will see varsity sports in their entirety at the low and mid major levels eliminated because of this.

 

[HoosierTim]

Yes, unfortunately that is the case. The point I was making is that many who ended up doing quite well seem to have a feeling that it could be a better deal. AND by not making it marginally better, it’s about to become way better apparently. In a way that might not be better but rather “better”

thanks for giving me your insight. It’s greatly appreciated and we aren’t entirely far off

You as well. Respect you for keeping it cordial. This is something I am passionate about and while I would like to discuss it on my own schools forum, that place is nothing but a cesspool that turns into a constant pissing and shouting match. This is a breath of fresh air.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

Not to get lost in all of this, I really don't mind players now having the ability to profit off their NIL. That isn't really my concern. My concern is the charade that this going to follow that I believe will ultimately end collegiate sports as we know it. I agree there is nothing amateur about P5 football and basketball, but there are hundreds of thousands of scholarship athletes who do follow under the amateur status in the non-revenue generating sports who are going to suffer greatly. You will see varsity sports in their entirety at the low and mid major levels eliminated because of this.

Yeah I agree. Ultimately I think that the issue with those sports is that no one pays to watch them. So.. it’s up to the school in my opinion to decide what the importance is to that particular school. In my opinion, If you can get people to come watch you play, then your sport can survive with scholarships. If you can’t, maybe it can’t. I’ve never been a believer that it has to be fair that way.

case in point. I’m a strong chess player. If the principle held true that all worthwhile things that we compete in should be funded, I’d have easily had a full ride to a big ten school. As it stands, I think I know two people who got full rides to schools I’d never heard of.

however, to bring it full circle, I believe university of Maryland Has decided it’s important enough to them to fund it. So they do. Woo hoo!

thanks again for the dialogue.