Loyer is the Key

[pubill]

Because Morton shutting down Battle never even happened. When did he fair well against Christie? I'll go back and watch. That's one of the few games I didn't catch this year.

You missed it , he did shut down Christie and he slowed down Battle Sunday.

 

[Boiler79]

You missed it , he did shut down Christie and he slowed down Battle Sunday.

slowed Battle down because he attempted 1 shot over Morton and Ohio State didn’t run another set until battle subbed out? Ok….

 

[msfboiler3]

I'm not following your point. Is that intended to be an example of Painter being

Or maybe they're just not what you want them to be, at least not yet? I think he trusts Cam, he's just not very polished offensively at this point (good spot up shooter though). I've posted this elsewhere but the expectations for Myles coming into the year were not fair to him given the low level of coaching (mostly hs) and competition he dealt with in high schools and AAU. Huge jump for him.

What I wanted was athletic wings that teams don't run screen after screen to get isolation on. Loyer has been getting picked on all year. He's not physical enough to not be a liability with the ball in his hand either. Colvins biggest issue has been off the ball defense imo. Yes, I hoped he would be getting more minutes...at least as a situational defender late in games because he's the type of player we have been lacking in march.

 

[pboiler18]

What I wanted was athletic wings that teams don't run screen after screen to get isolation on. Loyer has been getting picked on all year. He's not physical enough to not be a liability with the ball in his hand either. Colvins biggest issue has been off the ball defense imo. Yes, I hoped he would be getting more minutes...at least as a situational defender late in games because he's the type of player we have been lacking in march.

I think the point most would agree on would be that we at least need to try something different in situations where the offense is stagnant.

It’s clear that we are 50/50 at best as it stands now in games where we will choose willingly to not make an adjustment, especially vs teams that are better athletically than us. Those odds suck for doing anything meaningful in March.

 

[SKYDOG]

I think the point most would agree on would be that we at least need to try something different in situations where the offense is stagnant.

It’s clear that we are 50/50 at best as it stands now in games where we will choose willingly to not make an adjustment, especially vs teams that are better athletically than us. Those odds suck for doing anything meaningful in March.

At least try something different even if it results in a loss. The tape will show the kids what they need to improve on instead of wondering why some don’t get to play. Telling them is one thing seeing it makes it clear. I would bet Colvin as an example wonders why he gets so few minutes. Play him some meaningful minutes and find out.

 

[northside100]

What I wanted was athletic wings that teams don't run screen after screen to get isolation on. Loyer has been getting picked on all year. He's not physical enough to not be a liability with the ball in his hand either. Colvins biggest issue has been off the ball defense imo. Yes, I hoped he would be getting more minutes...at least as a situational defender late in games because he's the type of player we have been lacking in march.

Right, that's totally fair, you just have a fundamental disagreement with MP as to the type of player that he should be recruiting, signing and playing. He generally hasn't been able to sign players who have elite physical skills and athleticism along with advanced offensive skill and he has prioritized skill over physical tools.

Cam versus Fletcher is the perfect example. Cam is long, strong, athletic and a good shooter. He's doesn't have the savvy, multi level scorer skills that Fletch has, at least not yet. It makes sense that you disagree with MP's decision to roll with Loyer versus playing Cam more.

Myles may end up providing both but his game is not yet developed enough for his offensive prowess to offset his underdeveloped rebounding, team defense and intangibles (you can also disagree as to whether MP's evaluation of that tradeoff is correct).

 

[northside100]

At least try something different even if it results in a loss. The tape will show the kids what they need to improve on instead of wondering why some don’t get to play. Telling them is one thing seeing it makes it clear. I would bet Colvin as an example wonders why he gets so few minutes. Play him some meaningful minutes and find out.

I would be shocked if the coaching staff isn't not only clearly communicating to Myles what he needs to work on and where he's falling short in practice but also watching practice film with him to highlight where he needs to improve.

Understand your view but MP has consistently shown that if a guy is advanced enough to be playable and has enough upside he's going to live with mistakes (Carsen, Biggie, Jaden). It's clear to me that Myles has not yet reached that level.

 

[Dryfly88]

I would be shocked if the coaching staff isn't not only clearly communicating to Myles what he needs to work on and where he's falling short in practice but also watching practice film with him to highlight where he needs to improve.

Understand your view but MP has consistently shown that if a guy is advanced enough to be playable and has enough upside he's going to live with mistakes (Carsen, Biggie, Jaden). It's clear to me that Myles has not yet reached that level.

I'm perfectly fine with saying Myles isn't ready and shouldn't be playing. No problem at all with me. What I have an issue with, is IF you are going to play him, then run some stuff for him to take advantage of the one thing he does very well. Putting him in for 3-4 minutes and not even getting him 1 shot just doesn't make sense. We all agree (at least I think we do) that his defense has a ways to go. What I think we all also agree on is that he has one of the best looking (and producing in small volume) shots on the team. Let's see if we can't get him a couple good looks in those 3-4 minutes and take advantage of that.

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

At least try something different even if it results in a loss. The tape will show the kids what they need to improve on instead of wondering why some don’t get to play. Telling them is one thing seeing it makes it clear. I would bet Colvin as an example wonders why he gets so few minutes. Play him some meaningful minutes and find out.

You don’t think the coaches sit down with players and show them film, or talk to them in practice what they’re doing/not doing? And then work with them to get them better at it?

 

[Gman544]

slowed Battle down because he attempted 1 shot over Morton and Ohio State didn’t run another set until battle subbed out? Ok….

He mostly played Thornton and slowed him multiple times. Also got a block, I think against Thornton. Note that Morton always plays someone like Thornton who is the best offensive threat and usually is toying with our defense.

 

[Gman544]

One thing ( now hang on Izzo haters) that Izzo does when he pulls a player is he let's them know right then why and it's usually defense and it's usually not pretty.How he does it publicly might not be right, but perhaps on the spot letting players know what they did wrong might be helpful. Maybe the assistants do this quietly. I remember Keady at rotary telling us about practice talking to the players and saw their absent faces. " What did I just say" he barked. Not one could tell him.

 

[SKYDOG]

You don’t think the coaches sit down with players and show them film, or talk to them in practice what they’re doing/not doing? And then work with them to get them better at it?

I think players need more than a 2-3 minute stint to get into the flow. Even if that player does something good, more than likely he will be substituted out. Painter has a pre game mindset on subbing in players.

 

[Boiler79]

@northside100 You previously mentioned that Colvin didn't play high level AAU Comp. I don't follow AAU. What were you referring to?

 

[northside100]

I'm perfectly fine with saying Myles isn't ready and shouldn't be playing. No problem at all with me. What I have an issue with, is IF you are going to play him, then run some stuff for him to take advantage of the one thing he does very well. Putting him in for 3-4 minutes and not even getting him 1 shot just doesn't make sense. We all agree (at least I think we do) that his defense has a ways to go. What I think we all also agree on is that he has one of the best looking (and producing in small volume) shots on the team. Let's see if we can't get him a couple good looks in those 3-4 minutes and take advantage of that.

Agree with this. Braden missed Myles on a wide open look and forced it to Trey on one possession and it didn't look like they made a real effort to involve him offensively. Happy to see Myles get some minutes but then take advantage of his strengths. He doesn't need to shoot it every time he touches the ball but work to get him some looks.

 

[qazplm]

Really depends on matchups and how the rest of the backcourt is playing and what the defense is giving up. Morton is excellent on defense and facilitating on offense in some situations (second half against MN was exceptional on both ends, shut down Christie and moved the ball on offense contributing to a huge scoring half) but he certainly didn't help the offense yesterday.

Agree with your assessment that it would be great to have Cam and Myles be more productive. In my experience if you're not improving in practice you're not going to magically get better in games but you certainly have the right to your view on giving those two more game time minutes.

I don't know about that. There are definitely players who practice better than they play and there are also definitely players who play better than they practice.

Now certainly understandable to operate that practice will equal game play, that's the logical approach, but when you have a situation where a starter is in a slump, then I say you at least give another player a chance at more time. I don't think it requires magical thinking that he might outperform his practice performance in gameplay with more time. Some people need the emotion of the game mattering

 

[northside100]

@northside100 You previously mentioned that Colvin didn't play high level AAU Comp. I don't follow AAU. What were you referring to?

Others can speak to the detail better than I can but he didn't play for the big programs that compete at the highest level at the big national tournaments (Peach Jam, etc.) I think the two big programs are Indy Heat and Indiana Elite but I'm not close to this either. I want to say that he played for Indy Nets, which to my understanding is more of a regional program. From what I've heard that was a family choice in much the same way that he played for a Heritage Christian High School program that wasn't very good.

I'm not criticizing those choices but it seems pretty clear that they contributed to his steep learning. Hopefully he can make additional gains over the next six weeks and then makes a huge jump in the offseason.

 

[qazplm]

I would be shocked if the coaching staff isn't not only clearly communicating to Myles what he needs to work on and where he's falling short in practice but also watching practice film with him to highlight where he needs to improve.

Understand your view but MP has consistently shown that if a guy is advanced enough to be playable and has enough upside he's going to live with mistakes (Carsen, Biggie, Jaden). It's clear to me that Myles has not yet reached that level.

And that's fine when Loyer is playing decent to well. Less so when Loyer is playing, well as just plain bad as he has the last three games.

 

[MetMyWifeAtHarrys]

The issue with Loyer, is that even when he is playing 'well', we are generally referring to offense.

He needs to gain muscle mass in the offseason as he builds his defensive game.

 

[northside100]

I don't know about that. There are definitely players who practice better than they play and there are also definitely players who play better than they practice.

Now certainly understandable to operate that practice will equal game play, that's the logical approach, but when you have a situation where a starter is in a slump, then I say you at least give another player a chance at more time. I don't think it requires magical thinking that he might outperform his practice performance in gameplay with more time. Some people need the emotion of the game mattering

Good points, agree with almost all of that. It's definitely not a 1 to 1 match but in almost all situations there's a strong degree of correlation. What you sometimes see in games (I'm specifically thinking of Trevion Williams as a freshman) is that the upside in what they do well is worth the tradeoff of where there are gaps.

IMO we've seen enough from Cam to know what he does well and what he doesn't. I'm happy that Myles is getting more minutes in the last couple of games, I'd like to see them run more action for him. I'm personally of the opinion that this team will go as far as Braden, Lance and Fletcher can take them, but if they can get Myles to the point where he's consistently playable he could be bale us out when others are having an off game.

 

[Boiler79]

Others can speak to the detail better than I can but he didn't play for the big programs that compete at the highest level at the big national tournaments (Peach Jam, etc.) I think the two big programs are Indy Heat and Indiana Elite but I'm not close to this either. I want to say that he played for Indy Nets, which to my understanding is more of a regional program. From what I've heard that was a family choice in much the same way that he played for a Heritage Christian High School program that wasn't very good.

I'm not criticizing those choices but it seems pretty clear that they contributed to his steep learning. Hopefully he can make additional gains over the next six weeks and then makes a huge jump in the offseason.

Thanks. It was the Nets. I found their website and Rosie is listed as the Director.

 

[Gman544]

Sometimes the PR about incoming frosh or red shirts is just over the top. Based on that, fans, thought Colvin and Heide would start maybe from day one . Colvin would be that athletic player we need getting to the rim with big dunks, great off the dribble and shooting threes. He could do all that to offset games where Purdue had bad three point shooting and off games for Edey. Reality at least now is not showing he can do any of that except shoot threes at a high % mostly off a good pass. Heide was seen as a high flyer doing much of the same. Reality right now is Heide catches some balls at the rim and can finish and shoots some threes at a good %. That's all fine. But not the athletic get your own shots players we thought. They were not ready to unwrap day one like a Hummel, Etwaun, JJ or even Ivy ( except for early injury), but that was the PR. The best athletic addition on offense was Jones and he was not portrayed that way so much coming in.

 

[proudopete]

There is no one ready to take Loyers minutes. It is what it is. Colvin/heide/Morton are inferior choices to get a majority of his minutes.

He is the difference between a 2nd exit in the dance and no Bigten title and a bigten title and a final 4. He needs to play better simple as that. Be in the right position on defense, make your 3s at above 40% and make good decisions when you drive the basketball. We need him to be the player he was against gonzaga and arizona to win a natty for the season to be a successful one.

When Jones is on we can usually survive Loyer being off. When Jones and Loyer are both off, we struggle badly. It didn’t help that Gillis had a bad day as well.

 

[SCBoiler1]

Sometimes the PR about incoming frosh or red shirts is just over the top. Based on that, fans, thought Colvin and Heide would start maybe from day one . Colvin would be that athletic player we need getting to the rim with big dunks, great off the dribble and shooting threes. He could do all that to offset games where Purdue had bad three point shooting and off games for Edey. Reality at least now is not showing he can do any of that except shoot threes at a high % mostly off a good pass. Heide was seen as a high flyer doing much of the same. Reality right now is Heide catches some balls at the rim and can finish and shoots some threes at a good %. That's all fine. But not the athletic get your own shots players we thought. They were not ready to unwrap day one like a Hummel, Etwaun, JJ or even Ivy ( except for early injury), but that was the PR. The best athletic addition on offense was Jones and he was not portrayed that way so much coming in.

Don't read OldBoiler52's post about next year's class! Sounds like we have the Fab 5 + Catchings coming in next year!😁

 

[SCBoiler1]

Sometimes the PR about incoming frosh or red shirts is just over the top. Based on that, fans, thought Colvin and Heide would start maybe from day one . Colvin would be that athletic player we need getting to the rim with big dunks, great off the dribble and shooting threes. He could do all that to offset games where Purdue had bad three point shooting and off games for Edey. Reality at least now is not showing he can do any of that except shoot threes at a high % mostly off a good pass. Heide was seen as a high flyer doing much of the same. Reality right now is Heide catches some balls at the rim and can finish and shoots some threes at a good %. That's all fine. But not the athletic get your own shots players we thought. They were not ready to unwrap day one like a Hummel, Etwaun, JJ or even Ivy ( except for early injury), but that was the PR. The best athletic addition on offense was Jones and he was not portrayed that way so much coming in.

I think from now on I'm just going to wait until I see guys play before I buy into the hype of new guys or vast improvement of guy's I've already seen play. Once I see a guy play, I can pretty much see what they can become. For most guys it's just a better version (often slightly better version) of who they are on day one.

 

[SCBoiler1]

And that's fine when Loyer is playing decent to well. Less so when Loyer is playing, well as just plain bad as he has the last three games.

Loyer's deal is he just has to shoot the three. We need him hunting threes and stop turning down open threes.

He's shot 5 threes in the last 4 games! In the same time span Jones has taken 24 threes.

If he's not going to shoot you might as well play Morton or Heide. They are as good or better at every other phase of the game with the exception of free throw shooting. Obviously, I'm not suggesting that's the answer, but someone needs to get in his ear and tell him to let it fly!

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

When Jones is on we can usually survive Loyer being off. When Jones and Loyer are both off, we struggle badly. It didn’t help that Gillis had a bad day as well.

If 2 of the 3 guards have a good game and combine that with Zach, we have a good chance to win. Insane happened often, but we see what happens when it’s the opposite and 2 of the 3 don’t have good games

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

Don't read OldBoiler52's post about next year's class! Sounds like we have the Fab 5 + Catchings coming in next year!😁

😂 😂 he’s very optimistic but he’s out on catchings right now as being the best in the class

 

[BoilerInChiTown]

I'm with you that Loyer is the key, but at this point we don't have many other options for offensive punch off the bench in the backcourt.

I still think we're fine and better off than last year with the addition of Jones, but like last year there was a lot of talk about us being a deep team when in reality we really only have 6 or 7 guys who have shown that they are capable of giving us more than 5 or 6 points on a given night. I'm being generous saying 7 because that 7th guy is Colvin and it seems someone's got in his ear and told him to not be aggressive in close games.

This someone should be fire ASAP. It's one thing to say take good shots but telling a player to be less aggressive?

 

[msfboiler3]

Right, that's totally fair, you just have a fundamental disagreement with MP as to the type of player that he should be recruiting, signing and playing. He generally hasn't been able to sign players who have elite physical skills and athleticism along with advanced offensive skill and he has prioritized skill over physical tools.

Cam versus Fletcher is the perfect example. Cam is long, strong, athletic and a good shooter. He's doesn't have the savvy, multi level scorer skills that Fletch has, at least not yet. It makes sense that you disagree with MP's decision to roll with Loyer versus playing Cam more.

Myles may end up providing both but his game is not yet developed enough for his offensive prowess to offset his underdeveloped rebounding, team defense and intangibles (you can also disagree as to whether MP's evaluation of that tradeoff is correct).

My overall disagreement is how the team gets to march. A loss in December is better than in the tournament. I get that loyer is consistent and matt knows what he is getting. We beat alot of good teams early. Can we beat them in march? If not, why? We have obvious holes and we can blame Colvin or heide for not getting more minutes based on different metrics or work ethic but it's up to Matt to develop guys that can play in march. Loyer isn't doing anything wrong but matt owes it to the other kids to do what is necessary to win in march. How many times do we have to go out early to change something with our guard play.