Keep telling yourself that. No true audit has been done.
Again, I never said that widespread fraud did happen. There is more than enough shady shit to demand a closer look, unlike what the media says.
Let’s start keeping track of Biden’s
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Again, I never said that widespread fraud did happen. There is more than enough shady shit to demand a closer look, unlike what the media says.
No, there isn’t. It would be a colossal waste of time and money, and wouldn’t find anything of note. What you seem to think happened was thousands of people across multiple states conspired to commit fraud, and there is zero concrete evidence of any of it. Simple as that. Trump lied to you. Giuliani lied to you. Multiple former Trump officials including his press secretary at the time of the election have quit and come out to say it didn’t happen, that they just lost the election. But hardcore “free thinkers” like you don’t want to believe it.
It’s over. Most people have accepted that. Move on. Seriously.
Actually, if you would have watched the video above, you would understand that it wouldn't require thousands of people to commit fraud.
You keep saying pretty firmly that there is zero evidence of any of it. I'm assuming you've actually taken a look and listen to the evidence that has been collected? If you haven't then you don't have a leg to stand on here.
I'm not basing what I think off of what Trump or Giuliani said. I listened to the people who gave testimony and signed sworn affidavits. There were several people I found not credible, or I dismissed because in their statement they would say things like "Trump won and the election was stolen". That's not how things work. It still has to be proven, but it cannot be proven OR dis proven without looking into the claims. Which did not happen.
There is no evidence that would hold up in court. Many of the claims were “looked into” in state after state after state. No one made compelling arguments as to widespread fraud. No one.
Stop. It’s over. Move on with your life.
I’m done in this thread. There is no use arguing with the lunatic fringe.
You talk about counting votes late. You realize why that happens right? The states dictate that vote counting cannot start until election day. The results of counting ballots when they are in such high numbers (largest turnout in history) means it takes time to get the counts in.
Normal circumstances my have a slight lean to the way votes are counted (absentee vs. early voting vs. in person on election day) but but virus and the BS pushed by the president made those margins even more exaggerated.
Are you trying to insinuate that the mob was involved in the vote counting in all the states trump lost?
This wasn't new. Elections rarely have the complete vote done on election day. Certification of the vote never has happened day of.
The issue was counting was going on at night with democratic election officials present when the republican officials were told to go home for the evening.
Exactly. It seems as if one side wants to completely ignore the idea that even if there was no impropriety, the way in which some states proceed with the counts promotes the opportunity to speculate about corruption. This “every vote counts” garbage has to change. People literally have months to cast votes. There is no reason for these charades to continue to cloud the foundation of a democracy.
You took quite a leap there regarding the mob and Trump. I can only assume you chose that route in order to discredit. Reality is that Kennedy/ Chicago turned a state after it was largely leaning right:..and by turning in a late vote count. If it makes you feel better, say it was the Kiwana club that Kennedy had a deal with. You’re completely ignoring the point that when you allow these late counts and exceptions, you’re dismantling the trust of the people.
That didn't happen. It was investigated and scrutinized by republican election officials with every second on video and was debunked. BoilerG and SKYDOG bring it up as if it was factual because there is no better evidence. At this point the election fraud conspiracies are more of a religion, it's built on faith and not facts.
You brought up Mob connections in a place that made zero sense in the discussion. I'm trying to clarify the relevance of the point.
I'd argue that not counting valid votes because there is an arbitrary cutoff on the time they have to be counted by would be more damaging to the trust of the people.
Think this through, I vote, but I know that depending where my vote was in the stack it could be left out of the count because we have a slow counter, an issue with the counting machine jamming, or a threat of a mob storming the counting facility to "stop the vote". Is that the alternative you are proposing?
You didn't bring it up. But you certainly agreed. Slick. What is your definition of "Exactly"?
How does it not make sense to bring up historical examples of questionable irregularities when states took multiple days to count votes? Again, you seem infatuated that the word “mob” was used. Sorry, I didn’t write history, so by all means if it makes you feel better, insert the name of a social club.
You are very inclined to distract from the real issue- voter confidence. How is it that in pre-automated days, the country knew the vote count the next morning (see Dewey Defeats Truman)....and yet in a highly automated process, it doesn’t concern you that Pennsylvania takes more time than a drive across the country to get a count done. As I said before, I’m not implying there was fraud in this election, but You seem willing to ignore historical references....if you care at all about the foundation of free elections, this simply has to change. Any argument you have against that is as juvenile as you saying that there’s no place for this discussion.
You think the right wing radio was bringing up issues in an election from several decades ago for anything other than to continue to sew discontent about a "rigged" election?
To a point on historical context, the process is completely different in how the vote is conducted today. Understanding the laws and the safeguards currently in place would go a long way to help build confidence in the election processes. The right wing folks screaming "fraud" refuse to do their homework and succumb to the intellectual laziness by just consuming whatever conspiracy theories help support their existing world view instead of seeking out the facts.
Seems like it happened in a few locations unless these were all faked information. Hard to believe anything anymore for what is actually the truth.
Unfortunately, that’s how the world works- if something happened in the past, it proves that it may happen again.
I think we should also discuss the idea that Election Day is arbitrary (your word). I use that argument on occasions where it suits as well (that something is arbitrary). The key to arbitrary is that virtually everything is arbitrary. The date that you must pay the mortgage, rent or credit card are arbitrary...but failing to comply with that arbitrary date has consequences.
When you believe what man tells you over anybody else, a man whose future depends on what you believe, that stuff happens.
Congrats, you almost understand the purpose of right wing disinformation.
So, what did having the count complete by the end of election day matter now when it never seemed to matter before. What's different?
Good lord! No wonder you never build anything a sane person wouldn't Hire you!
Drilling holes in a cooler does not a bulder make.
Yes Georgia. He has the facts, you don't. You can see clearly in the video that they were counting for hours after they told people to go home.
If you even try and link one of the BS fact check articles, then you obviously missed/forgot the announcement made on NATIONAL TV that they were going to stop counting.
They did it multiple times.
At least 3 Georgia counties have stopped counting ballots
Donald Trump and Joe Biden each need 270 electoral votes to win the presidency. Follow here for the latest updates on voting and election results.
Wrong. I watched the video and the Republican SOS either has his facts wrong, OR he lied. What he says does not match the video. What the affidavits say match the video almost to a T.
His descriptions seem to match the video to me. Any improper counting, such as scanning each ballot 4 times, would've been caught by the subsequent hand recount and the subsequent machine recount. Observers, the people who went home, are not required for counting. Otherwise, either party could force counting to stop at any precinct of their choice by simply not sending observers. You are ALLOWED to send observers, they are not required to be there.
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That's the perfect rallying cry for morons to prove how ignorant they are. You've proven again and again that you're not exactly knowledgeable about what's real.
He just lied right there. The press and observers were not in the room when they pulled them out from under the table.
1. The 60 minutes video is deceiving because they make it seem as if the table and counters in that video could be seen by the observers. The couldn't. The room is "arched" and the observers and those specific counters were on opposite sides of the arch. The observers didn't even know those people were there because they couldn't see them. You'd understand this better watching the full video that shows all 4 cameras vs the camera angles they want you to see.
2. The observers left before they pulled the boxes out from under the table. Again, if you had the shot with all 4 cameras at the same time, you'd see this. He lied there. Note the time in the 60 minutes video on the camera. They pulled the boxes out from under the table around 11:03 PM. Now look at the video I linked. You don't have to listen to the lady speaking. Simply pause the video, look at the time on the video (10:40 PM) and note that in the bottom right image is where the observers were supposed to be. The room is entirely empty accept those that are still counting.
LOL, he just contradicted himself. He said press and observers left the room at 10:45 (they didn't pull the boxes out till 11:03 and he claimed the press and observers were still there). He also lied because I just showed you that by at least 10:40 there was NOBODY else there other than the election staff.
It would be interesting to know what the results were for those ballots.
Also it might be a mute point, at least for vote tally, if the recount had the same result.
Again, fraud wouldn't be identified by a recount but only by a full audit. And a full audit cannot be accurately done once the ballots have been separated from the envelopes containing the voter information and signature.
I'm not sure what you're hearing, but it's clear to me that the host says, "They're pulling those ballot carriers out that we just saw them put under there," to which the official responds, "Correct. About a little less than an hour earlier, with the press and observers in the room." He's referencing that the observers were present when the boxes were filled and placed under the table. At no point does he say observers were present when the boxes were pulled back out, so where is the lie? Why would a Trump-supporting Republican election official want to lie about this anyway?
I don't really care that the room was "arched." If the observers couldn't see anyway, as you suggest, why would they need to be removed? None of the observers seemed to complain about the fact they couldn't see absolutely everything. But, you know what could see everything? The cameras, hence we have this video and any actual fraud would've been seen. Either the video shows election counters committing fraud or it doesn't. You think that because they said they were done counting and, subsequently, continued to count, that indicates a conspiracy to get observers out of the room so the counters could do something untoward. And yet, the only thing that can be observed happening after the observers leave is the counting of ballots that they already had on hand and stored away in plain view of security cameras and with observers in the room. What you haven't addressed is the fact that observers do not have to be present for counting to take place anyway, so the fact that they were gone -- as well as whether they could or couldn't see this part of the room -- is completely moot.
I also wonder if observers would have been able to identify fraud if they saw it. If there actually were boxes of fake ballots delivered, how would observers know the difference from that delivery as opposed to "legitimate" ones? If there were a bunch of ballots that didn't come in signed envelopes (the only kind of thing that would be exposed by "auditing" the signatures, which, by the way, are verified TWICE in GA before the vote is counted), wouldn't there be many more absentee ballots in the count than there were envelopes? And yet, we've not heard about a discrepancy between the number of ballots and the number of envelopes. Surely, GA's Republican election officials would have shouted this from the Stone Mountaintops if it were discovered.
There are two possible explanations that have been presented: 1. counters lied to observers about being done counting so they could commit fraud in peace; 2. one person said one thing ("we're done for the night") who was then countermanded by someone higher up ("no, you're not"). One of these explanations is WAY simpler and more likely than the other, given that this type of miscommunication happens all the time everywhere.
Finally, I reject the notion presented by many that we should just do the audit to restore faith in the process. Many of the folks who think there was fraud simply don't trust the government anyway. Any audit report confirming the fairness of the election would be seen as deep state propaganda, thus, even more evidence that everything was fixed. That's the beauty of conspiracy theories, the lack of evidence is actually evidence. There are people who believe the Earth is flat, for crying out loud. Show them video or photos of the planet from space and they just say it's fake. Election fraud folks would do the same thing.
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It is true that ballots cannot be tied back to the envelope they arrived in. But, that separation is absolutely fundamental to the way our democratic system works. If you were to reconnect the ballot to the voter, you remove that person's right to a secret ballot.
Secret ballot - Wikipedia
First of all, he claims that they can see them putting the boxes under the table. The people that signed the affidavits said they could not see that section of the room. They didn't even know there were counting machines over there until they walked through the room after they came back to see what was going on (press told them a couple hours later that they didn't stop counting).
Second, this is what you said: I'm not sure what you're hearing, but it's clear to me that the host says, "They're pulling those ballot carriers out that we just saw them put under there," to which the official responds, "Correct. About a little less than an hour earlier, with the press and observers in the room." I wouldn't have written the statement that way. There was such a long pause between him saying "Correct. About a little less than an hour earlier" to "with the press and the observers in the room" that it's dishonest to have a comma between. In fact there was a solid 3 seconds between those two statements. At best there should be a period. Two separate statements. Which of course had a video/audio cut in between so who knows what the "official" actually said between there.
They did complain that they couldn't see anything. Observers are supposed to be able to see what is on the ballot to be sure nothing is being process incorrectly. Can you honestly tell me that they could see what each person intended to vote from against the wall there? This is election security 101...
Ok, let's break the rest of your post down like this. If there was nobody looking to do something wrong, then why did the counters in the area of the room sit still at their desks while everyone else in the room got up, put stuff away and left. Those counters sat there and waited. Why? Do you have an explanation for that? Their actions did not reflect that they were told to go home, like the rest of the room did.
IF the observers were still in the room while those counters and only those counters were going, the observers would have heard them and thus they would have known that there was an area they couldn't see at all. So IF you're going to commit fraud, you don't want them to know that they are counting there at all.
The 60 minutes video tries to push the idea over and over that the observers COULD see that area of the room, thus they saw the boxes go under the table. The observers clearly said they could not.
As far as the cameras go, these are under the control of the owners of the center, not the election officials. Which is why the video came out in the first place. Can you honestly sit there and tell me you know exactly what those people are doing from the video, IE: can you read the ballots and see that they weren't computer printed or had proper signatures or anything? No you can not.
Last but not least, They brought out 4 boxes from under the table. How many ballots does each box hold? They had 4 counting machines continue to count for roughly 2 hours. Each machine can process 3,000 ballots an hour. So 24,000 ballots roughly were counted with no observers in the room per the legal statutes. Does each box contain 6,000 ballots? I don't know. I tried to find out, but had difficulty finding those details.
True, but you also remove the ability to have a complete audit. That's why observers are so important and the need for them to be able to actually see what is going on during the process of separation and counting. They are there to confirm that signatures match, etc. The observers were not able to see in many cases of these challenged states. In Republican counties there were no issues with observing. It coincidentally only occurred in Democratic counties.It is true that ballots cannot be tied back to the envelope they arrived in. But, that separation is absolutely fundamental to the way our democratic system works. If you were to reconnect the ballot to the voter, you remove that person's right to a secret ballot.
Secret ballot - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
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Still irrelevant. No law or rule states observers must be there to see all counting.
I'll agree there was a pause, but nothing to indicate he was changing the subject to pulling the boxes out rather than putting them under the table in the first place. Have you never heard someone pause when speaking off the cuff? It's pretty common. My interpretation is also supported by grammar, since "with the press and the observers in the room" is not a complete sentence and must, necessarily, be a clause modifying what came before.
Can you verify these complaints? And, yet again, even if this is true that they complained, observers are not required.
Maybe they were taking a break? Maybe someone had started to shut down the vote counting machines and they had to be restarted? I don't have an explanation, and neither do you. We're both just speculating.
For the fifth, or so, time, not relevant.
Can you? No, you cannot.
Just because the machines CAN process 3,000 ballots an hour doesn't not mean they were counting at full efficiency. I don't know how many ballots are in the boxes, but I do know that the state officials report that between 8:30 and 12:45, less than 10,000 ballots were counted. And, once again, observers are NOT a legal requirement. If I'm wrong about that, please find and link the GA law that states observers must be present.
It's unfortunate that the observers were mis-informed and left, because if they were there, we wouldn't be having this argument. But, what do you think ACTUALLY happened after they left? The ballots under the table have been shown to be regular ballots. If the observers couldn't see anyway, there was no reason to hide them, even if they WERE fake. So, if the ballots themselves are not fake and the hand count matches the machine count (so scanning ballots multiple times clearly didn't happen), what fraud do you actually think happened? Neither of us can definitely say what's on the video, we can only speculate about what we think it looks like is happening. Saying it's shady that observers weren't present, therefore fraud must have occurred, does not follow logically. Since the possibility exists that fraud did not occur, then the premise that no observers were present cannot necessarily lead to the conclusion that fraud DID occur. How do we know they didn't cheat in favor of Trump? There were no Democratic observers in the room...
"Looked Into"? A Real investigation takes time. A lot of time. and they would not be investigated by the people overseeing the election. They would be investigated by others who were independent. That is the reason there is no history in our country of election fraud over the years. In this election there was a large number of affidavits filed with individual observations, etc. That large number would have tied up the election process for years to investigate. I don't really think the election results would have changed enough to change the outcome but there were a few really large accusations that I was not able to find any inquiry at all. For example, the accusation made by a truck driver that claimed he delivered thousands of ballots from New Jersey to Pennsylvania. The only report I read indicated that he dropped the trailer in the lot of a postal location and the next morning it was gone. I would think that a situation like that could be easily tracked down. Ditto for a reported issue with tens of thousands of absentee ballots in Michigan. Beyond that there were instances where Judges made rulings that changed election laws in states. The main reason to complete these investigations is going forward, not looking back. I agree with your statement that this is over, move on but moving on requires closure on these issue. We don't have it at this time. My opinion.
A discussion about what observers should or should not be able to see, where they should be placed, etc. is a perfectly valid one to have. That's talking about the way things should be, and people can have different opinions about that. I agree observers are important and probably should be able to see more clearly, as long as people's votes can remain secret. But, acknowledging that we have yet to craft the perfect voting system does not mean cheating occurred.
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