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Lack of atheleticism

Boilermaker

Redshirt Freshman
Aug 31, 2002
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Is it me or does it seem like every last Big10 team as a whole has much more athletic players? Seems like there are plenty of non-P5 teams with more athletic players. I know a good player athleticism alone does not make, but it has bothered me for years with Painter teams. Would be great to have 4-5 players on the team (not all have to be starters) with Carsen's speed/agility.
 
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Is it me or does it seem like every last Big10 team as a whole has much more athletic players? Seems like there are plenty of non-P5 teams with more athletic players. I know a good player athleticism alone does not make, but it has bothered me for years with Painter teams. Would be great to have 4-5 players on the team (not all have to be starters) with Carsen's speed/agility.
Painter focused on size and shooting...at the expense of athleticism. It was an issue a year ago, and is a significant issue again this year.

It is not as if he has not had some athletes certainly, but, just off the top of my head, the majority of those guys didn't "fit" or work out for any number of reasons.

Chicken or egg...the system in place does not appeal to athletes, or, the system in place lacks the athletes to be more successful?

It is not as if Painter has not tried to recruit athletes either...he just has not had great success in doing so unfortunately.

Regardless...it is indeed an issue, and will continue to be one.
 
I was hopeful there would be strides in this department with Carsen, Basil, and Taylor. Unfortunately, Taylor got injured and Carsen isn't quite ready for the keys to the car. Not exactly sure how and why Basil fell through the cracks. I know a lot of people were predicting 15-20 mpg for him coming into the season. Should have been even more athletic coming off a redshirt season where he could focus on training. Maybe other recreations got in the way?
 
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The coaching staff is a bigger issue than maybe some lack of athleticism. Basil is one of Purdue's two most athletic players. He didn't play at all last night. That was the coach's decision.

Purdue was getting beat (like they often do) in ball-screen D (either with drives, jumpers, or alley-oops) while they were defending it in man-to-man. They continued to get scored on in their man-to-man. They are allowed to play other defenses but they refuse: who decides that? The coaching staff decides that.

Even in their man-to-man principles, they're not using their help D as much in the paint. Part of that might be players getting over their too slowly but another part of that might be by design because it's believed that the post defenders can handle their man one-on-one in the paint: who believes that? The coaching staff believes that.

A lineup with both Dakota Mathias and Ryan Cline (while good jump-shooters, aren't quick enough to create their own shots in tight games) in it played for a long stretch of the second half, including the final minutes of the game. Purdue loses quickness with that lineup as I mentioned, does not help a lineup that needs to have someone that can create their own shot. Who decides to put that type of lineup out there at the end of the game? The coaching staff decides that.
 
Is it me or does it seem like every last Big10 team as a whole has much more athletic players? Seems like there are plenty of non-P5 teams with more athletic players. I know a good player athleticism alone does not make, but it has bothered me for years with Painter teams. Would be great to have 4-5 players on the team (not all have to be starters) with Carsen's speed/agility.
Basil Smotherman. Problem is he never gets minutes.
 
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"Basil Smotherman. Problem ..."

Your first three words are correct. Basil himself is the only one who can solve it.

In regards to this season, what issues do you have with him? He's never been a great shooter but he can score in transition and make plays above the rim on both ends.
 
The coaching staff is a bigger issue than maybe some lack of athleticism. Basil is one of Purdue's two most athletic players. He didn't play at all last night. That was the coach's decision.

Even in their man-to-man principles, they're not using their help D as much in the paint. Part of that might be players getting over their too slowly but another part of that might be by design because it's believed that the post defenders can handle their man one-on-one in the paint: who believes that? The coaching staff believes that.
When you see Basil at practice every day then you will be qualified to say why he isn't getting minutes. Athleticism doesn't a make ball player. From what I've seen this year, Basil isn't the same player after the weight gain. I don't believe he stood a chance against Jok. JMO

You speculate that the players getting over slowly to help might be part of the design....... which is ludicrous......but then you say the coaching staff believes that. Which is it?
I don't believe the staff thinks our 5s can defend the P&R without help all the time, be it Biggie or Haas.They are traditional bigs, not very nimble. IMO the help was slow to get there, not allowing the 5 to recover from the hedge or step out. Mostly that was whoever was at the 4, Biggie or Vince. Our MTM is based on help , didn't do very well with it last night.
 
Basil is in his fourth year here. Fellow touted classmates Bryson Scott and Kendall Stevens are gone.

I want them all to do well, wherever they're playing. My question is how have each of them, in their four years, progressed?
 
When you see Basil at practice every day then you will be qualified to say why he isn't getting minutes. Athleticism doesn't a make ball player. From what I've seen this year, Basil isn't the same player after the weight gain. I don't believe he stood a chance against Jok. JMO

You speculate that the players getting over slowly to help might be part of the design....... which is ludicrous......but then you say the coaching staff believes that. Which is it?
I don't believe the staff thinks our 5s can defend the P&R without help all the time, be it Biggie or Haas.They are traditional bigs, not very nimble. IMO the help was slow to get there, not allowing the 5 to recover from the hedge or step out. Mostly that was whoever was at the 4, Biggie or Vince. Our MTM is based on help , didn't do very well with it last night.
Is he not showing up for practice?

He was guarding Nigel Hayes the other night. He would have helped shut down Jok.
 
Basil Smotherman. Problem is he never gets minutes.
Why does seemingly all other P5 teams and many lower level conf teams have 4+ Carsen/Basil level athletes on the team that contribute but we haven't in who knows how long? We have all seen the Boilers bested every year to more than one team that out athletes us. Frustrating.
 
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I said in a different thread that they should have tried Basisil on Strap. He probably would not have "shut him down" but I think it would have been worth a try for a few plays when he was already killing us. Hell, even someone like Queen would have given him a shot. Must be something more to it as suggested by Bob the Builder. I say he ends up transferring. Just my fity cent
 
I was hopeful there would be strides in this department with Carsen, Basil, and Taylor. Unfortunately, Taylor got injured and Carsen isn't quite ready for the keys to the car. Not exactly sure how and why Basil fell through the cracks. I know a lot of people were predicting 15-20 mpg for him coming into the season. Should have been even more athletic coming off a redshirt season where he could focus on training. Maybe other recreations got in the way?
Basil. Ate too much. Needs to drop 30 lbs.
 
Is he not showing up for practice?

He was guarding Nigel Hayes the other night. He would have helped shut down Jok.

He was TRYING to guard Nigel the other night. It didn't work out very well. That was a really poor five minutes or so when he was in.
 
He was TRYING to guard Nigel the other night. It didn't work out very well. That was a really poor five minutes or so when he was in.
This. Hayes was blowing past Basil, and Hayes is nowhere near as quick as Jok. Peter would have gone for fitty with BS guarding him.
 
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When you see Basil at practice every day then you will be qualified to say why he isn't getting minutes. Athleticism doesn't a make ball player. From what I've seen this year, Basil isn't the same player after the weight gain. I don't believe he stood a chance against Jok. JMO

You speculate that the players getting over slowly to help might be part of the design....... which is ludicrous......but then you say the coaching staff believes that. Which is it?
I don't believe the staff thinks our 5s can defend the P&R without help all the time, be it Biggie or Haas.They are traditional bigs, not very nimble. IMO the help was slow to get there, not allowing the 5 to recover from the hedge or step out. Mostly that was whoever was at the 4, Biggie or Vince. Our MTM is based on help , didn't do very well with it last night.

If the coaching staff knows that Haas and Biggie are slow, then WHY WERE THEY CONTINUOUSLY LEFT ON THE FLOOR AT THE SAME TIME? Just letting Jok do whatever he wanted to.
 
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If the coaching staff knows that Haas and Biggie are slow, then WHY WERE THEY CONTINUOUSLY LEFT ON THE FLOOR AT THE SAME TIME? Just letting Jok do whatever he wanted to.
Sometimes it was both of them playing, sometimes it was Vince that was slow to rotate and help until the recover. Sometimes it could be a smaller player to help if they are in position.
Biggie and Haas are what they are. Whoever is at the 5 has to work hard to recover and the 4 has to rotate to help until the 5 can get there. No good solution here except putting in the effort and execution.
If Vince needs rest it's going to be Biggie and Haas. No other options unless you want to chance Basil at the 4.
 
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I get it. You guys want all players that are athletic, skilled, great shooters, great ballhandlers, high basketball IQ, tough as pitbulls, and ultra competitive.

I've got news. Every team in all of America does. Only so many perfect players to be had. Most every team has deficiencies they have to learn to deal with. The teams that have the fewest and/or does the best job of dealing with the ones they have, will be the teams that win the most.

I find it funny though. Two weeks ago so many people on here were talking like the loss of Hammons and Davis were no big deal and that we were a far better team without them. Now they are freaking out about these deficiencies that have been there all along.
 
Is it me or does it seem like every last Big10 team as a whole has much more athletic players? Seems like there are plenty of non-P5 teams with more athletic players. I know a good player athleticism alone does not make, but it has bothered me for years with Painter teams. Would be great to have 4-5 players on the team (not all have to be starters) with Carsen's speed/agility.
How quickly we forget what we saw against Wisconsin!
 
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Basil is in his fourth year here. Fellow touted classmates Bryson Scott and Kendall Stevens are gone.

I want them all to do well, wherever they're playing. My question is how have each of them, in their four years, progressed?
Better question...who is responsible for said progression, or, more accurately, lack thereof? Hard to believe a coach/staff could recruit a class that was incredibly highly ranked at the time of the commitments, and four years later, literally have nothing to show for it...even more hard to believe that it is not just accepted, but that it is glossed over, excused and/or ignored.
 
Basil is in his fourth year here. Fellow touted classmates Bryson Scott and Kendall Stevens are gone.

I want them all to do well, wherever they're playing. My question is how have each of them, in their four years, progressed?

Stevens = Stephens
 
I get it. You guys want all players that are athletic, skilled, great shooters, great ballhandlers, high basketball IQ, tough as pitbulls, and ultra competitive.

I've got news. Every team in all of America does. Only so many perfect players to be had. Most every team has deficiencies they have to learn to deal with. The teams that have the fewest and/or does the best job of dealing with the ones they have, will be the teams that win the most.

I find it funny though. Two weeks ago so many people on here were talking like the loss of Hammons and Davis were no big deal and that we were a far better team without them. Now they are freaking out about these deficiencies that have been there all along.

You are right that there a few perfect players available and every team needs to deal with the deficiencies that they have. So yes, most players will have some sort of flaw that needs to be overcome. But I think not all flaws are equal - I think we have too many guards that are highly skilled but unathletic. Take PJ for example who cannot create his own shot and struggles to contain dribble drive on defense with better athletes. Compare him to Jon Oceteus, who also had flaws of not being a great outside shooter and not being a true point guard. Both of these players had flaws, but I believe PJ's flaws are much more harmful to the team than Octeus's flaws.

Yes all players have flaws, but not all flaws are created equal. We need to start recruiting players that have types of flaws that can be more easily overcome than others. What has been proven to me is that our current system of recruiting unathletic but highly skilled guards will almost always get you beat when the other team has athletic guards. It only succeeds against teams like Wisconsin that have equally unathletic guards.

Luckily, this could be starting to change with Carsen and Nojel.
 
If we are going to have to pick one I'd rather have more skill and less athleticism than vice versa. Just my preference. To me, nothing is worse than watching unskilled athletes running cluelessly around the basketball court.
 
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If we are going to have to pick one I'd rather have more skill and less athleticism than vice versa. Just my preference. To me, nothing is worse than watching unskilled athletes running cluelessly around the basketball court.
so would you rather have PJ or Octeus?
 
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How quickly we forget what we saw against Wisconsin!
Not true...Wisconsin, like Purdue, was not incredibly athletic which is precisely why Purdue fared as it did...but, the young guys for Wisconsin, are far more athletic players...so maybe they are making at least some move in that direction...and, a guy like Dekker was incredibly athletic and made a significant difference on those Wisconsin teams.

Wisconsin long was a system program under Ryan...Purdue never has been that.

Most important, while not the case, it is real easy to forget "what we saw" against Wisconsin when it is sandwiched between "what we saw" against Minnesota and Iowa, and throw in a game that it nearly lost (and possibly should have save the shot-clock violation non-call that they got) in Columbus to a winless in conference play OSU team, and it is not a case of forgetting anything...just dealing with reality.
 
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so would you rather have PJ or Octeus?

Largely depends on the players around them. Also we only saw one year of Octeus as a fifth-year grad transfer if memory serves. The only fair comparison between the two would be to the player PJ is next season.
 
Largely depends on the players around them. Also we only saw one year of Octeus as a fifth-year grad transfer if memory serves. The only fair comparison between the two would be to the player PJ is next season.
It makes no difference who surrounds them...Octeus had an impact at both ends, and could be a difference maker at both ends, never mind provided some great leadership...not the case with Thompson...I will concede that he was older and had the benefit of another year of experience, so maybe Thompson develops into a leader like Octeus was, but no way he ever impacts the game at either end as Octeus did, and that had nothing at all to do with who was around him...but everything to do with the fact that he was long and athletic, two things that Thompson lacks and that prevent him from being able to do it.
 
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It makes no difference who surrounds them...Octeus had an impact at both ends, and could be a difference maker at both ends, never mind provided some great leadership...not the case with Thompson...I will concede that he was older and had the benefit of another year of experience, so maybe Thompson develops into a leader like Octeus was, but no way he ever impacts the game at either end as Octeus did, and that had nothing at all to do with who was around him...but everything to do with the fact that he was long and athletic, two things that Thompson lacks and that prevent him from being able to do it.
I believe that if Octeus was on this team, we would only have 1 or 2 losses.
 
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It makes no difference who surrounds them...Octeus had an impact at both ends, and could be a difference maker at both ends, never mind provided some great leadership...not the case with Thompson...I will concede that he was older and had the benefit of another year of experience, so maybe Thompson develops into a leader like Octeus was, but no way he ever impacts the game at either end as Octeus did, and that had nothing at all to do with who was around him...but everything to do with the fact that he was long and athletic, two things that Thompson lacks and that prevent him from being able to do it.

Octeus couldn't shoot and did not take care of the ball nearly as well. Better defender and better rebounder. There are certainly lineups and situations I'd rather have PJ in and even this year's PJ.
 
I feel the same way if we had big dog. Just 2 losses or less.
If Queen was our coach? Reverse record of what we have now...

What if we put this year's Swanigan on the Octeus team? Do we win it all??
 
What if we put this year's Swanigan on the Octeus team? Do we win it all??
Really difficult to say that "they win it all" seeing as they lost in the first round and would have seen Kentucky in the next had they managed to advance...but, Swanigan on that team was certainly a missing piece and would have made that particular team awful good.

The only time in any recent history that a legitimate case could be made for winning it all was when Hummel had gone down, as Purdue would have been ranked #1 in the country in that next poll...and they were playing as well as anybody in the country and as good as anybody in the country.

'98 was the last true time that Purdue was a legitimate contender to win it all, as Purdue was flat out rolling and dominant until Cornell got hurt in the IU game.
 
Octeus couldn't shoot and did not take care of the ball nearly as well. Better defender and better rebounder. There are certainly lineups and situations I'd rather have PJ in and even this year's PJ.
Octeus could get to the basket...he created offense with his rebounding or getting to the basket (PJ does neither)...and while he was not a shooter by any stretch, he could knock down shots on occasion (and, it was not like he hoisted a lot of shots either).

With Thompson on the floor, Purdue is playing virtually 4-on-5 a lot of the time...and he is on the floor A LOT...he does not turn the ball over certainly, but, it is not as if he is handling it a ton either, never mind that he does anything with it when he does other than initiate the offense with a pass to someone else.
 
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