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First, I salute the Ukranians for the fight they're putting up, and if possible

We have more than enough nukes to turn Russia into glass.
Russia does not have many more useable nukes. Guidelines is a ****ing idiot. Russia has more warheads. They have about 100 more that are actually ready for use than we do. With nearly 1400 weapons, most of them MIRVs, we have more than enough.

Guidelines is uninformed and seriously unhinged.
 
". . . if Putin wins there, he's going to test the resolve with a move into a smaller NATO country . . ."
Seems to me the greatest threat is to non-NATO countries that are between Russia and NATO - like Ukraine. If I lived in Georgia, Moldova, Sweden or Finland, I'd be getting a little nervous.

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Seems to me the greatest threat is to non-NATO countries that are between Russia and NATO - like Ukraine. If I lived in Georgia, Moldova, Sweden or Finland, I'd be getting a little nervous.

20220108_FBM994.png
We should hope Putin is dumb enough to invade Finland. Good gracious what a quagmire that would be for him with that terrain and nearly the entire male population with military training.
 
Sure, I know history. He’s not going into NATO countries, and his military isnt nearly what Hitler’s was relative to the rest of Europe at the time.
Europe right now is a military mess. Germany essentially has no military right now. France doesn't have any balls and won't do anything. The US isn't going to do jack crap if he decided to invade a Baltic country. Putin knows this. And yes, he is a madman or he wouldn't be doing what he's doing now. You completely underestimate his "strategy"...
 
Europe right now is a military mess. Germany essentially has no military right now. France doesn't have any balls and won't do anything. The US isn't going to do jack crap if he decided to invade a Baltic country. Putin knows this. And yes, he is a madman or he wouldn't be doing what he's doing now. You completely underestimate his "strategy"...
And I think you overestimate Russian military strength. Do you know why they aren’t making any progress at night? It isn’t because they need their rest.
 
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Ok, so yet another way to cause him to go suicidal.

The only way to solve this is a ling term solution where he gats a win now, and loses over time and goes peacefully. Ukraine is not worth WW3. The pride of NATO is not worth WW3. Our regime is decadent corrupt and perverse and is not exactly morally clean either.
That wouldn't be a very "strong" thing to do.
 
Russia doesn’t have trained manpower to sustain a long siege. Most of their army is conscripted and poorly trained.
This is true. But without direct US/NATO intervention/help, I’d still put my money on Russia winning a war of attrition. They have more resources and manpower at their disposal. And for all we know, China might start to aid Russia, albeit quietly (not manpower). I think China is watching this closely vis a vis Taiwan, watching what the US, UN, and NATO do in this instance in Ukraine.
 
And I think you overestimate Russian military strength. Do you know why they aren’t making any progress at night? It isn’t because they need their rest.
Their equipment keeps failing too. For instance, their cheap Chinese tires on their heavy trucks keep blowing out. It’s hampering their progress.
 
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Because Putin knows he could launch on us and they would break down in fear.
So you think if Putin launched nuclear weapons against the United States, we would not retaliate because Biden is weak? I mean, I guess, maybe? I mean, technically, we have no way of knowing what Biden would do until that situation arises. On the plus side, if Putin does launch, none of us will have very long to worry about whether or not we shoot back.
 
So you think if Putin launched nuclear weapons against the United States, we would not retaliate because Biden is weak? I mean, I guess, maybe? I mean, technically, we have no way of knowing what Biden would do until that situation arises. On the plus side, if Putin does launch, none of us will have very long to worry about whether or not we shoot back.

I do not think Biden would launch. He would absorb the strike he would be paralyzed by fear and his dementia. Assuming he was even awake when it hits.
 
This is true. But without direct US/NATO intervention/help, I’d still put my money on Russia winning a war of attrition. They have more resources and manpower at their disposal. And for all we know, China might start to aid Russia, albeit quietly (not manpower). I think China is watching this closely vis a vis Taiwan, watching what the US, UN, and NATO do in this instance in Ukraine.
But again, the Taiwan-Ukraine parallel some are trying to draw doesn’t hold water. We have a defensive treaty with Taiwan. We do not have any commitments to Ukraine.

China is not dumb enough to think “They let Russia roll into Ukraine, let’s go for Taiwan!!” expecting the same response from the United States.
 
Their equipment keeps failing too. For instance, their cheap Chinese tires on their heavy trucks keep blowing out. It’s hampering their progress.
That has been a “thing” in rhe Russian military for two decades. It’s better now than it was in 2000, but the Russian army and navy are a shell of the former Soviet might, and largely still rely on old technology. The new tech they have their conscripts aren’t trained well enough to employ effectively.

FWIW, the Chinese are the same way. Lots of cool new tech that their operators can’t employ effectively (yet).
 
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But again, the Taiwan-Ukraine parallel some are trying to draw doesn’t hold water. We have a defensive treaty with Taiwan. We do not have any commitments to Ukraine.

China is not dumb enough to think “They let Russia roll into Ukraine, let’s go for Taiwan!!” expecting the same response from the United States.
Points well taken. They aren’t necessarily thinking that “well, they let Russia roll over Ukraine…..”, but I bet they are nonetheless curious to see what the US/UN/NATO responses will be to Ukraine. I don’t think it’s a coincidence at all that Russia and China have met at the highest levels multiple times recently and made joint statements about their support of each other. They are getting in bed together increasingly.
 
And I think you overestimate Russian military strength. Do you know why they aren’t making any progress at night? It isn’t because they need their rest.
I don't think the EU/NATO has the will to fight Russia for Romania or Bulgaria. I may be wrong, but I think the excuse of not wanting to risk nuclear war will essentially stop any direct military intervention with Russia.
 
NATO should never have expanded into those eastern European countries in the first place, this provoked this confrontation.

This confrontation has been foreseen for 30 years.

Ukraine is not a NATO ally. We cannot force Putin into a no win situation for him where he goes beserk and launches. Russia invaded Hungary in the 60s and elsewhere, but we avoided WW3 and won in the long run, that has to be the answer now.

Putin does not have the military power to invade the West. There is no threat to NATO right now.
You're proposing treating these eastern European countries like the global powers did in the 19th and early 20th centuries. These countries are not pawns that can be traded and manipulated to benefit the rich and powerful military countries. They have a right to freedom, to choose their system of government.......and yes, to choose to join a security alliance to protect themselves. We don't get to dictate to them how they should align themselves........all so we don't make Putin feel insecure.

And we, as the leader of the free world, need to support and protect fredgling democracies in the framework of our alliances.

Just back off and givePutin the buffer he wants. Maybe he will promise to stop. We can believe him. Makes sense.

The Ukraine have the right to decide for themselves how they want to run their country and who they choose to ally with. It's called freedom.
 
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They are formidable.......and have proven it to the Russians before.
Gr8, Bob, you guys need to review history before you post.

"The Winter War,[F 7] also known as First Soviet-Finnish War, was a war between the Soviet Union (USSR) and Finland. It began with a Soviet invasion of Finland on 30 November 1939 . . . Hostilities ceased in March 1940 with the signing of the Moscow Peace Treaty, in which Finland ceded nine percent of its territory to the Soviet Union.

"The Continuation War, also known as Second Soviet-Finnish war, was a conflict fought by Finland and Nazi Germany, against the Soviet Union (USSR) from 1941 to 1944, as a part of World War II. . . .In Lapland, joint German–Finnish forces failed to capture Murmansk or cut the Kirov (Murmansk) Railway, a transit route for lend-lease equipment to the USSR. The conflict stabilised with only minor skirmishes until the tide of the war turned against the Germans and the Soviet Union's strategic Vyborg–Petrozavodsk Offensive in June 1944. The attack drove the Finns from most of the territories they had gained during the war."

" . . . the signing of the Paris Peace Treaties in 1947. The treaties confirmed the territorial provisions of the 1944 armistice: restoration of borders per the 1940 Moscow Peace Treaty, the ceding of the municipality of Petsamo (Russian: Пе́ченгский райо́н, Pechengsky raion) and the leasing of Porkkala Peninsula to the USSR. Furthermore, Finland was required to pay $300 million in war reparations to the USSR, accept partial responsibility for the war, and acknowledge that it had been a German ally.[28][29]
 
And we have more lose in that scenario. They have a huge missile advantage over us, and China will be waiting in the wings.

The way out of this is to give Putin a way to "win"
There are enough missiles to go around...China would not be spared in a global thermonuclear war.
Life, if there were life, would not be pleasant.
 
but I bet they are nonetheless curious to see what the US/UN/NATO responses will be to Ukraine
I'm sure they are. But NATO has nothing to do with Taiwan/China, and Ukraine is not part of NATO or the EU and no one has defense pacts with Ukraine. That's the reason no one is sending troops in there, and that's why Russia invaded now. They want to oust Zelensky, put up a puppet government, and keep Ukraine away from NATO. Since 2019, Ukraine has marched quickly towards the West... it's overwhelmingly what their people want, and frankly, it's inevitable unless Russia basically conquers them. That's what Putin is trying to do, but ultimately it's a fools errand because he's going to get himself an insurgency and another revolution just like 2014 unless he's willing to keep a military occupancy there. Good luck with that.
 
Ok, so yet another way to cause him to go suicidal.

The only way to solve this is a ling term solution where he gats a win now, and loses over time and goes peacefully. Ukraine is not worth WW3. The pride of NATO is not worth WW3. Our regime is decadent corrupt and perverse and is not exactly morally clean either.
His ego and bravado will not allow him to commit suicide. He will never do that. Someone from within will eventually be his demise.
 
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Gr8, Bob, you guys need to review history before you post.

"The Winter War,[F 7] also known as First Soviet-Finnish War, was a war between the Soviet Union (USSR) and Finland. It began with a Soviet invasion of Finland on 30 November 1939 . . . Hostilities ceased in March 1940 with the signing of the Moscow Peace Treaty, in which Finland ceded nine percent of its territory to the Soviet Union.

"The Continuation War, also known as Second Soviet-Finnish war, was a conflict fought by Finland and Nazi Germany, against the Soviet Union (USSR) from 1941 to 1944, as a part of World War II. . . .In Lapland, joint German–Finnish forces failed to capture Murmansk or cut the Kirov (Murmansk) Railway, a transit route for lend-lease equipment to the USSR. The conflict stabilised with only minor skirmishes until the tide of the war turned against the Germans and the Soviet Union's strategic Vyborg–Petrozavodsk Offensive in June 1944. The attack drove the Finns from most of the territories they had gained during the war."

" . . . the signing of the Paris Peace Treaties in 1947. The treaties confirmed the territorial provisions of the 1944 armistice: restoration of borders per the 1940 Moscow Peace Treaty, the ceding of the municipality of Petsamo (Russian: Пе́ченгский райо́н, Pechengsky raion) and the leasing of Porkkala Peninsula to the USSR. Furthermore, Finland was required to pay $300 million in war reparations to the USSR, accept partial responsibility for the war, and acknowledge that it had been a German ally.[28][29]
What the hell does any of that have to do with a potential invasion of Finland by Russia in 2022?

Russia isn't the Soviet Union militarily or otherwise. Not even close other than as a nuclear power.

And we aren't talking about the Finns trying to conquer Russian territory. The exact opposite.

But congratulations on graduating from Wikipedia Finnish Military history course or whatever.
 
I don't think the EU/NATO has the will to fight Russia for Romania or Bulgaria. I may be wrong, but I think the excuse of not wanting to risk nuclear war will essentially stop any direct military intervention with Russia.
I think you're wrong.

I think most everyone in this thread is vastly overestimating Russian conventional military strength, Putin's aspirations and willingness to use nuclear weapons, and pretty seriously underestimating what NATO is willing to do.

NATO just reinforced the Romanian NATO defense force as well. No, I think if Putin decides to attack a NATO country to expand beyond the former Soviet borders, he's going to get trounced and he knows it. I don't think the Russian people are particularly interested in expanding Putin's "empire" at tremendous cost to them.

Y'all need to take a step back and chill.
 
Exactly. Putin is not a madman.

As others have said, short of committing ground troops (which we should not in Ukraine), this will be stopped from within.

But I think it is going to be important to Putin that he is able to save face in however this ends. For the most part, I think this is about an old man confronting his own mortality and trying to cement a legacy in Russian history by bringing Ukraine back into the fold.
There was a General interviewed on Fox News last night, yes Fox News.
He basically said NATO is conceding Ukraine to Russia.
He said the support is inconsequential. He said Putin sent a small portion of his army into Ukraine to feel the situation out, try to not kill very many civilians and keep the infrastructure in tact.
Putin was fooled by the Ukrainian's resistance and will now unleash the held up troops.
There is no logistical problems for the troops on the 40 mile convoy.
He even stated Finland was going to give Ukraine 19 F16's to help them.
That request was declined by the UN and NATO. Neither want a major conflict with Russia.
 
There was a General interviewed on Fox News last night, yes Fox News.
He basically said NATO is conceding Ukraine to Russia.
He said the support is inconsequential. He said Putin sent a small portion of his army into Ukraine to feel the situation out, try to not kill very many civilians and keep the infrastructure in tact.
Putin was fooled by the Ukrainian's resistance and will now unleash the held up troops.
There is no logistical problems for the troops on the 40 mile convoy.
He even stated Finland was going to give Ukraine 19 F16's to help them.
That request was declined by the UN and NATO. Neither want a major conflict with Russia.
Let me see if I can get this through to you:

Ukraine is not a member of NATO.

Period.

There is no defense pact with Ukraine. There is no reason any country should do anything to support Ukraine other than to oppose Russian imperialism.

Ukraine is NOT - NOT - a member of NATO. NOT a member of NATO. NOT a member of NATO.

NATO doesn't get to concede or allow anything on behalf of Ukraine because, that's right, Ukraine is NOT a member of NATO!

Why is this difficult to understand?

And I don't know who the hell that General was, but he's probably not very bright. Russia is estimated to have more than 100,000 troops in Ukraine now. That's not a "small portion" of it's Army. They've committed more than 80% of their deployed combat power in Ukraine now.

That RETIRED General is probably full of shit. Be careful with those guys. You don't know his background. He doesn't have access to any intelligence or anything else anymore. He's collecting a paycheck to say stuff on TV.
 
What the hell does any of that have to do with a potential invasion of Finland by Russia in 2022?
Here, read your own words: "We should hope Putin is dumb enough to invade Finland. Good gracious what a quagmire that would be for him with that terrain and nearly the entire male population with military training."

There have been two Finnish-Russian wars and Finland lost both of them. But more to the point. Russia invaded Ukraine because they were moving toward NATO membership. Finland is doing exactly the same thing. Don't miss this line in the following article: "In a stark threat, Russia last week warned them (Finland) not to join NATO."

Finland’s Drift Toward NATO Membership Accelerated by Russia’s Ukraine Invasion​

Poll shows majority of Finns favor joining the Western defense alliance, preferably in lockstep with Sweden​

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Finnish Prime Minister Sanna Marin called the country's decision to send weapons to Ukraine historic.​

PHOTO: LEHTIKUVA/VIA REUTERS
By Sune Engel Rasmussen Wall Street Journal March 1, 2022

Finnish political parties gathered Tuesday to discuss joining the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, a first step to possibly ending the Nordic nation’s decadeslong nonaligned status and another sign of the tectonic shifts in Europe’s security landscape prompted by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
The parliamentary debate followed a decision Monday to send military aid to Ukraine, breaking with a longstanding Finnish policy of not sending weapons to war zones. Finnish Prime Minister Sanna Marin at a news conference Monday called the decision historic.
Watching 200,000 Russian troops amass on the border with Ukraine, a country with eight times the population of Finland, unsettled many in the Nordic country, which was a part of Russia until 1917 and was invaded by half a million Soviet troops in 1939.
Finland shares the European Union’s longest border with Russia, a key factor in its decision not to antagonize Moscow by joining NATO.
"People’s opinions are changing, it’s understandable. Russia has attacked Ukraine and of course, that’s a lot for the Finns to think about,” Ms. Marin said heading into the meeting Tuesday, according to the Finnish daily Helsingin Sanomat.
Public support among Finns for NATO membership has been growing. A petition to hold a referendum on joining the alliance has garnered the 50,000 signatures needed to have the proposal considered by Parliament.
im-495485

Demonstrators waved Ukrainian flags during a rally to support Ukraine in Helsinki on Saturday.​

PHOTO: JUSSI NUKARI/AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE/GETTY IMAGES
A poll released Monday by the Finnish Broadcasting Company showed that for the first time a majority of Finns, about 53%, supported joining the alliance, up from 19% in 2017. A full 66% would support NATO membership if neighboring Sweden, which has also long maintained a nonaligned status, joins at the same time.
If Finland were to join NATO, it would prefer to do so in tandem with Sweden, its Scandinavian neighbor to the west. The two countries already cooperate deeply on defense matters, which could become more complicated if one of them decided to join the alliance without the other.
In a stark threat, Russia last week warned them not to join NATO.
“It is obvious that if Finland and Sweden join NATO, which is primarily a military organization, this would have serious military and political consequences that would compel the Russian Federation to take retaliatory steps,” Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said last week.
Finland and Sweden nevertheless participated in an emergency NATO meeting last week where they were offered increased, mutual exchange of intelligence and information about security operations.
“Finns have traditionally put an emphasis on assuring Russia that they don’t want to be a springboard for any hostile activity,” said Matti Pesu, an expert on Finnish and Euro-Atlantic security at the Finnish Institute of International Affairs. “NATO membership has been seen as a disruptive factor.”


Russia Hits Central Square of Kharkiv as Convoy Advances on Kyiv

Russia Hits Central Square of Kharkiv as Convoy Advances on Kyiv
Ukraine’s second largest city of Kharkiv came under heavy shelling; a nearly 40-mile-long Russian convoy inched closer to Kyiv; President Zelensky addressed the European Parliament. Photo: Sergey Bobok/AFP/Getty Images
The end of the Cold War and the dissipation of the immediate threat of armed conflict allowed Finland to cooperate more closely with NATO without rescinding its neutral stance, for instance by sending troops to Afghanistan to assist with the alliance’s intervention after 2001. Finland also has deep ties to Western countries in part because a large part of its weapons arsenal consists of U.S.- and European-made equipment.

Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has pushed Helsinki to take even more significant steps away from neutrality.
Despite its policy of not sending weapons into war zones, Finland announced Monday it would send 2,500 assault rifles, 150,000 bullets, 1,500 antitank weapons along with 70,000 food packages to Ukraine. The shipment is planned to go via Poland on Wednesday, Defense Minister Antti Kaikkonen said.
Germany, which has been similarly reluctant to deliver arms into war zones, also has agreed to equip Ukraine and committed to spend far more on defense.
In a sign Finland is distancing itself from Russia beyond immediate defense matters, the country closed its airspaces to Russian planes, along with many others, including the Scandinavian and Baltic countries. Helsinki also called for tough EU sanctions on Moscow, “even if that would result in countermeasures by Russia,” Ms. Marin said last week.
Finland’s economy minister, Mika Lintila, has said his government wouldn’t grant a construction permit for a Russian-backed nuclear project called Fennovoima Oy, which had been expected later this year.
“For the first time in Finland’s post-Cold War history, many pieces are moving,” Mr. Pesu said. “We don’t know yet where Finland is going to land.”
A Finnish NATO membership is unlikely to happen immediately, as the country’s political parties are still overwhelmingly against it. Joining the alliance requires a referendum, which political parties may not want to take on before the next parliamentary election scheduled for April 2023, experts say.
But as Russia’s war in Ukraine continues, public pressure to reconsider the country’s international stance is likely to grow too.
“At this rate we have no other option but to join [NATO],” former Finnish Prime Minister Alexander Stubb said on Twitter last week. “Finland’s accession would strengthen the Alliance and help keep Northern Europe stable.”
 
There was a General interviewed on Fox News last night, yes Fox News.
He basically said NATO is conceding Ukraine to Russia.
He said the support is inconsequential. He said Putin sent a small portion of his army into Ukraine to feel the situation out, try to not kill very many civilians and keep the infrastructure in tact.
Putin was fooled by the Ukrainian's resistance and will now unleash the held up troops.
There is no logistical problems for the troops on the 40 mile convoy.
He even stated Finland was going to give Ukraine 19 F16's to help them.
That request was declined by the UN and NATO. Neither want a major conflict with Russia.
Uh, the Ukrainians aren't trained in the F16. Somebody is mistaken.

As you said, three EU countries have backed off the offers to send their MiGs and SUs to Ukraine.
 
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He would like to move into one or more NATO countries but he’s not dumb enough to do that. He knows what that would mean - WW III and the greater likelihood of a nuclear confli

 
I think you're wrong.

I think most everyone in this thread is vastly overestimating Russian conventional military strength, Putin's aspirations and willingness to use nuclear weapons, and pretty seriously underestimating what NATO is willing to do.

NATO just reinforced the Romanian NATO defense force as well. No, I think if Putin decides to attack a NATO country to expand beyond the former Soviet borders, he's going to get trounced and he knows it. I don't think the Russian people are particularly interested in expanding Putin's "empire" at tremendous cost to them.

Y'all need to take a step back and chill.
What you've seen invading Ukraine thus far has been a very small portion of Russia's military. Things are going to get very tough on Ukraine very soon.

Putin won't do anything with NATO countries for several years, as he let's this die down. But I'd be willing to bet he'll start prodding the Baltic's when he feels the time is right. This isn't a short game for him. This is him building his legacy...
 
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I do not think Biden would launch. He would absorb the strike he would be paralyzed by fear and his dementia. Assuming he was even awake when it hits.
Ok, your opinion is noted. But, if Russia launches a strike in the US (I presume you're talking a full-scale strike, else you wouldn't have brought up how many nukes Russia has), aren't we all dead anyway? At that point, what difference does it actually make whether we shoot back or not? If Russia launches, America is dead, whether or not Russia also dies.
 
This is true. But without direct US/NATO intervention/help, I’d still put my money on Russia winning a war of attrition. They have more resources and manpower at their disposal. And for all we know, China might start to aid Russia, albeit quietly (not manpower). I think China is watching this closely vis a vis Taiwan, watching what the US, UN, and NATO do in this instance in Ukraine.
The modern history of invasions of countries is you win battles and lose wars. Nothing lonelier than being an unwanted foreign soldier in a country where you are not wanted.
 
Ok, your opinion is noted. But, if Russia launches a strike in the US (I presume you're talking a full-scale strike, else you wouldn't have brought up how many nukes Russia has), aren't we all dead anyway? At that point, what difference does it actually make whether we shoot back or not? If Russia launches, America is dead, whether or not Russia also dies.

To rid the world of those bastards
 
The modern history of invasions of countries is you win battles and lose wars. Nothing lonelier than being an unwanted foreign soldier in a country where you are not wanted.
And to make matters worse, word is many Russian soldiers don’t even want to be there and have surrendered
 
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To rid the world of those bastards
Ok, fair enough. Of course, being dead and all, I have to think I wouldn't care either way at that point.

On a note of curiosity, I'd be interested to find out, if anyone has any knowledge of nuclear fallout and such, if the survivors in other parts of the world would have a better chance to continue surviving if a nuclear strike only goes one way. Or is a one-way strike enough to devastate all of humanity?
 
Honest to God, what is wrong with you? In a war today, Russia would squash Finland and every quasi-educated person on earth knows this. Are you trying to save face?
How did Iraq work out for us? Afghanistan?

This isn’t Risk, dipshit. It’s not just about lining up troops and shooting in lines. It’s damn hard to invade and occupy territory. Russia would want nothing to do with invading Finland. Absurd.
 
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