Carsen not starting?

[bonefish1]

I would sincerely hope that Painter doesn't start Cline over CE.
CE is our best ball handler, best facilitator, someone who can reel off 8-10 points in 90 seconds.
Sure, CE has a quick trigger sometimes, but that's what you get when you have a player with a scorers mentality. Take the good with the bad, let him learn on the floor, not the bench.

 

[Boiler Buck]

Well lets see, not starting him produced 18 pts 1 A and 4R.....I can live with that.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Well lets see, not starting him produced 18 pts 1 A and 4R.....I can live with that.

And a loss...

 

[BoiledSteel]

And a loss...

Which wasn't caused by him not starting. It isn't who starts it's who finishes and the production they do on the court while they play.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

And a loss...

I don't think Cline was guarding Wagner...in fact, he probably would have done a better job considering Biggie guarded him most of the first half and he went for half of UM's points. That loss goes to a poor initial game plan and poor in game first half adjustments on CMP and his staff. Purdue outscored UM by 3 in the second half thanks in large part to switching Biggie off Wagner and putting VE on him.

 

[BoiledSteel]

I don't think Cline was guarding Wagner...in fact, he probably would have done a better job considering Biggie guarded him most of the first half and he went for half of UM's points. That loss goes to a poor initial game plan and poor in game first half adjustments on CMP and his staff. Purdue outscored UM by 3 in the second half thanks in large part to switching Biggie off Wagner and putting VE on him.

Completely agree. Part of that is also on Biggie for playing weak defense to begin with. But, that is not something he is known for as it is. But yes CMP should of switched VE sooner.

 

[lbodel]

I don't think Cline was guarding Wagner...in fact, he probably would have done a better job considering Biggie guarded him most of the first half and he went for half of UM's points. That loss goes to a poor initial game plan and poor in game first half adjustments on CMP and his staff. Purdue outscored UM by 3 in the second half thanks in large part to switching Biggie off Wagner and putting VE on him.

And when did Purdue's biggest deficit occur? In the second half.

Wagner went off - it's like when Hummel went off against Wisconsin in the first half, then did nothing in the second half and came back and won. It's not like they magically tied him down, he just went cold after going hot and that's that.

Purdue struggled for much of the second half. We were losing by 21 with 7 minutes left in the game, more than we were losing at halftime.

That adjustment wasn't what made or broke the game. You're making it sound like we clawed back and systematically cut the deficit through the entire second half.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

And when did Purdue's biggest deficit occur? In the second half.

Wagner went off - it's like when Hummel went off against Wisconsin in the first half, then did nothing in the second half and came back and won. It's not like they magically tied him down, he just went cold after going hot and that's that.

Purdue struggled for much of the second half. We were losing by 18 with 9 minutes left in the game, more than we were losing at halftime.

That adjustment wasn't what made or broke the game.

You are some what correct, but you don't think the game would have been different had Wagner been limited to 12 or 14 points instead of 22(ish) in the first half? The game would have played out much differently had the deficit only been 5-10 instead of 15, IMO. The team wouldn't have been pressing as hard and forcing to find open three pointers and consistently stayed with the inside game of Haas and Biggie, IMO.

 

[Boiler Buck]

Completely agree. Part of that is also on Biggie for playing weak defense to begin with. But, that is not something he is known for as it is. But yes CMP should of switched VE sooner.

Yep, VE on Wagner and the game MIGHT have had a different outcome.

 

[lbodel]

You are some what correct, but you don't think the game would have been different had Wagner been limited to 12 or 14 points instead of 22(ish) in the first half? The game would have played out much differently had the deficit only been 5-10 instead of 15, IMO. The team wouldn't have been pressing as hard and forcing to find open three pointers and consistently stayed with the inside game of Haas and Biggie, IMO.

There's a lot of "what ifs" you can play with in any game. Like I mentioned with the Hummel situation - it didn't matter who would have been on him, he was on fire. Would that have been the case with Wagner? Who knows! We do not know.

I'm simply saying that the post inferred we played great in the second half and man if only we made that adjustment sooner, we could have won. Well, we were down by 21 with 7 minutes left - a deficit 6 points greater than it was at halftime. So for 13 minutes after that adjustment was made - we had played even worse, so that doesn't really bear out.

 

[bonefish1]

Which wasn't caused by him not starting. It isn't who starts it's who finishes and the production they do on the court while they play.

Totally disagree.
It's hard to measure to what degree not starting CE had on the outcome of the game. Maybe it had zero impact, or maybe it had a huge impact in terms of PU getting in an early hole.
I just don't think you mess with a lineup that's been working really well all year, especially when you're getting ready for the tourney.

 

[bonefish1]

Completely agree. Part of that is also on Biggie for playing weak defense to begin with. But, that is not something he is known for as it is. But yes CMP should of switched VE sooner.

I don't think Biggie plays 'weak' defense, he probably plays 'smart' defense. I'd rather Biggie gives up few buckets than picks up 2 early fouls and sits the bench.
Painter probably should have had VE guarding Wag from the beginning since a mobile 5 shooting 3's is a tough cover for Biggie. That, and Wag being hot as hell didn't help.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Which wasn't caused by him not starting. It isn't who starts it's who finishes and the production they do on the court while they play.

There is absolutely no way of knowing that. If he had started, he might've helped keep us in the game instead of getting down double digits.

Or maybe he wouldn't have, we'll never know.

 

[bonefish1]

There is absolutely no way of knowing that. If he had started, he might've helped keep us in the game instead of getting down double digits.

Or maybe he wouldn't have, we'll never know.

The point is, why change the line up now?
I don't think Cline is starting material. Yes, he can get hot from 3, but so can Carsen. CE also can change the pace, get buckets in transition, create his own shot, etc. Cline does none of those things.,

 

[BuilderBob6]

I don't think Biggie plays 'weak' defense, he probably plays 'smart' defense. I'd rather Biggie gives up few buckets than picks up 2 early fouls and sits the bench.
Painter probably should have had VE guarding Wag from the beginning since a mobile 5 shooting 3's is a tough cover for Biggie. That, and Wag being hot as hell didn't help.

As Painter said in the presser, Wilson was also a big concern. Understandable if you've watched him play. While not the shooter Wagner is, he is a ton more athletic and could have went around Biggie with ease.

Let's face the facts. They have two players in Wilson and Wagner that can abuse Haas and Biggie. We have one guy in Vince that can guard them. The math doesn't work. It was pick your poison. The argument can be made that we should have put Vince on Wagner and see what Wilson could do against our bigs. The worry for me would be that Wilson would take them to the basket and draw fouls. He's going to be a good player.

 

[Purdue0034]

We were doing pretty good with Carsen starting, I for one would keep it that way! Get off to a good start against IU and I think the game could be over by halftime! Get off to a bad start and things could go south! Start Carsen!

 

[tjreese]

I don't think Cline was guarding Wagner...in fact, he probably would have done a better job considering Biggie guarded him most of the first half and he went for half of UM's points. That loss goes to a poor initial game plan and poor in game first half adjustments on CMP and his staff. Purdue outscored UM by 3 in the second half thanks in large part to switching Biggie off Wagner and putting VE on him.

*******************
Wagner held back Wagner in the second half. he shot 3 shots in the second half. was 1/1 for 2 pts and 0/2 from the 3. I wrote about this in another thread. I think Wagner went off in a couple of minutes, but unsure. None of us know the game plan or other fears...does Wagner go low if a smaller player takes him...where was Irvin? I haven't had time and probably won't have time to really watch again the game and understand why Matt had Biggie on Wagner and who was actually in the game during those moments...and there are a few very reasonable responses. That said in that quick flurry of buckets by Wagner...we all would have preferred Biggie inside and wished Vince was on Wagner.

There really are a lot of unknowns that I would need to understand before I thought the game plan was flawed (and that would be an uniformed opinion...just what I saw) and yet I understand how we all saw Biggie away from the basket guarding the biggest guy for Michigan...last year it was Irvin. In the second half in switching everything Biggie was sometimes guarding Walton...

 

[punaj]

I want Carsen starting. He will be there next year and years to come with Eastern. They are the future that could change the though that Purdue never gets athletic guards.

 

[lbodel]

The point is, why change the line up now?
I don't think Cline is starting material. Yes, he can get hot from 3, but so can Carsen. CE also can change the pace, get buckets in transition, create his own shot, etc. Cline does none of those things.,

I mean, it was one game, correct? It could have had to do with something we don't know about and could be a one game thing. We don't know.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

As Painter said in the presser, Wilson was also a big concern. Understandable if you've watched him play. While not the shooter Wagner is, he is a ton more athletic and could have went around Biggie with ease.

Let's face the facts. They have two players in Wilson and Wagner that can abuse Haas and Biggie. We have one guy in Vince that can guard them. The math doesn't work. It was pick your poison. The argument can be made that we should have put Vince on Wagner and see what Wilson could do against our bigs. The worry for me would be that Wilson would take them to the basket and draw fouls. He's going to be a good player.

This. I said before the game that both Wilson and Wagner concerned me with their ability to shoot 3s and drive. Haas and Biggie can literally guard no one in UMs rotation. We play them in the B1G tourney, we could very well lose again. Turrible matchup. Just turrible.

 

[BuilderBob6]

This. I said before the game that both Wilson and Wagner concerned me with their ability to shoot 3s and drive. Haas and Biggie can literally guard no one in UMs rotation. We play them in the B1G tourney, we could very well lose again. Turrible matchup. Just turrible.

Yep. I was surprised that the change to switching on everything worked as well as it did in the second half. UM rarely seemed to try and take advantage of the mismatches that were created. PJ ended up on Wilson several times and they never tried to find him.
We were trying to switch back to the original man and did it very well. Actually saw us switch to a taller player that wasn't the original defender. For instance Dakota would switch from Irvin to Wilson and PJ would go to Irvin. Not the ideal matchup but better. We would keep doing that until our player would get back to their original man. Thought it was interesting.

 

[02Boilermaker]

It's hard to measure to what degree not starting CE had on the outcome of the game. Maybe it had zero impact, or maybe it had a huge impact in terms of PU getting in an early hole.

There is absolutely no way of knowing that. If he had started, he might've helped keep us in the game instead of getting down double digits.

What we do know: Carsen checked into the game for the first time with 14:24 left in the first half. At that time, Purdue was losing by 1 point (Michigan had an 8-7 lead at the time).

Carsen is and will continue to be important to the success of the team, but the outcome of the Michigan game was not decided by whether or not he started.

 

[tjreese]

Yep. I was surprised that the change to switching on everything worked as well as it did in the second half. UM rarely seemed to try and take advantage of the mismatches that were created. PJ ended up on Wilson several times and they never tried to find him.
We were trying to switch back to the original man and did it very well. Actually saw us switch to a taller player that wasn't the original defender. For instance Dakota would switch from Irvin to Wilson and PJ would go to Irvin. Not the ideal matchup but better. We would keep doing that until our player would get back to their original man. Thought it was interesting.

yeah, a lot of times I was thinking move the ball or players move jsut a bit so they can switch back.

 

[Boiler Wolf]

Painter has been more willing to sit Carsen this year than he did Biggie last year, and I think it will pay dividends in the tourney when it matters most. He even has been more willing to sit Biggie this year, to settle him down. I think it is good for both players and we will play better in the Big Dance because of it.