Please start C Edwards. Cline is better off bench.
Carsen Edwards
- Thread starter Bigt40s2002
- Start date
You my friend are in the Majority, just not sure CMP, is checking these threads for his gameplan. lol
I don't know tht Cline has played worse, but he hasn't shot it much at all.
The question I answered was whether Cline has played worse since starting, not whether he or Carsen should start
I just think Carsen is the only guard that brings a different skill set to the court. So long as he is playing under control he should be seeing 25+ minutes a game. Problem is that he still tends to force things sometimes and when he makes mistakes they tend to be quite costly.
Generally I think Cline is a slow starting guy, his second half is always better than the first. He needs to sit on the bench and watch the others playing for at least 6 minutes so that he can get himself into the game. Once he gets himself into the game in the second half, no problem with him. I'd rather start a fearless freshman over Cline.
Cline is in there to do 1 thing: hit 3's. If he's not doing that, then he hurts the team.
CE is the future of the team. He needs this experience and to play through whatever painter thinks he's struggling with.
This^^ This is where, I believe, your talent plays the most. He's the most skilled ball handler and should play a lot of minutes. Painter should have him ready to go by now. Turn him loose and coach the hell out if him.
He is struggling with decision making. Painter will always go with the people he feels he can trust on the floor.
Seriously sometimes his mistakes are really boneheaded. Needs to learn to cherish the possessions. It's not high school where his talent will make up for 3-4 dumb plays.
Very right. People on here get blinded by their own perception a lot of times and don't see that for a stretch of time for every one good thing he would do, he did two or three bad ones. Which hurt the team far more than playing Cline in his spot, by a long shot.
I think you have to give a player with his talent a really long leash and let them take some chances, make mistakes and learn through those mistakes.
If you limit a player like CE to play conservative, you end up with a more athletic PJ.
CE is a guy who can get on a roll line against Iowa, when he ripped off 8 pats in the first 90 seconds and essentially put the game out of reach.
Again, Painter better not screw this up.
There's a difference between not doing something bad and not doing anything at all. If Cline isn't draining 3's, he's not doing anything. CE is so much more dynamic that his skills sometimes almost require that we see some bad results because he has to take risks by pushing and forcing the issue.
CE has the 'sauce' and Painter has to let him play with it. Take the good with the bad.
Not doing anything by who's standards? Ours that only watch certain angles on a TV screen? CE also when o'fer on top of being out of control and hence ended up giving the other team points.
And thinking Cline isn't doing anything if he isn't shooting 3's is just narrow minded foolishness. He is a great passer and just having him out there when the other team knows he is a 3 point threat draws people out of the middle and makes the defense stay out on him and spreads the floor.
I like CE just as much as the next person and think he will be a stud for us, but Painter was right to sit him and start Cline whether some on this board think so or not.
Also, it's not affecting Carsen's actual playing time. If he plays well, he's playing his normal minutes.
I think Painter feels he gets a more "controlled" start without Edwards starting. He always comes in in the first timeout after the dust has settled from the beginning of the game.
Yes, Cline is in there to shoot 3s - but that also means teams have to guard him out there, which means teams have to choose whether to try to double Swanigan from the get go and leave our shooters open (Mathias/Cline), or not.
CE is as much a 3 pt threat as Cline. Plus, if you close out too hard on CE, he can penetrate and cause issues that way. Cline can't do that.
I just pray that Painter doesn't constrain what makes CE so dynamic. We haven't hard a guard with his skills for ever and if Painter tries to force him to only make the sure thing play, then you take away what makes him special.
Other than him not starting, what has Painter done to "constrain" him? He's STILL playing his normal minutes. It's not like he's playing 5 minutes a game. He played well against Michigan and played 28 minutes - and that was with foul trouble. Against NW, he played like crap (0-5, 2 turnovers, 0 assists) and played 15 minutes. Against IU, he was ok/meh (2-7, 0 assists) and played 18 minutes. Against Michigan, he played pretty well (7-14) and played 24 minutes.
I don't get why people get into such tizzies over who starts in a game. The playing time is clearly based on performance in the actual game they're playing - the last 4 games clearly show it. How is that not fair?
Better than CE's passes to Haas' knees. As stated, CE is still getting his minutes so not starting is working.
Over the past 4 games, Cline has 1 turnover, Carsen has 8.
If you look at those 4 games, Purdue's gotten off to a good start in all of them except the Michigan game, where it was down by 1 when the first subs were made. Once the first subs came in, Purdue's position in all 4 games got worse.
I don't think it's so much of what he's DOING, it's more of what he's NOT doing to give the Boilers a good start to each game. Once we're settled, Carsen comes in and if he plays well, he sees a significant amount of minutes the rest of the way.
If Purdue was getting off to these crappy starts and finding themselves in a 10 point hole, then sure. But as long as Purdue's starting off ok, not sure what difference it makes - Carsen gets his minutes if he plays well.
The saying is that at this point in the season, freshmen are no longer freshmen. However, I see Carsen making the same bonehead mistakes he made at the beginning of the season on both offense and defense. I'm all for letting him play through and learn from his mistakes, but he has had plenty of time to do that. The fact that he still gets as many minutes as he is getting says Painter hasn't given up on him. If Carsen had shown any king of improvement, he would be back in the starting lineup. For now, he is too much of a liability at the beginning and ending of games.
This board is so accustomed to slower guards who can't create that they call everything CE does as being out of control. Certain guards like PJ and Mathias get automatic passes it seems when it comes to driving or poor decisions but when Carsen makes a mistake people want him on the bench. Our offense isn't exactly the best for CE to showcase his skills. We clog the paint all the time and he can almost always get to the basket yet there is never any other players around which can lead to some contested layups/shots instead of a dish and dunk. He is going to excel more and more over the next few years because I see our post entry focus diminishing once Biggie and Haas leave. Carsen is the guard that we go up against who continually punishes us and we say we want on our team then get one and complain about how he handles the ball driving. By his Jr. or Sr. year I think he will be close to 1st team All Big 10 and almost unstoppable if our offensive system adapts as it appears to be doing with the incoming recruits.
No one is saying Painter is giving up on him, that'd be crazy. What I fear is Painter punishing him for his mistakes which then causes CE to play less to his natural abilities and making things happen.
Again, he's the most dynamic scorer Purdue has had since Etwaun Moore and you don't want him to get conservative because he's afraid of making a mistake and getting pulled off the floor.
Is he going to make some bad plays? Yes, but he's also the only player on the roster who can rip off 8-10 pts in 60 seconds and change a game.
totally agree.
Really, by this point in the season, I wish Carsen would be the one playing the point and breaking down the D, surrounded by Biggie or Haas and a bunch of shooters.
That's how they can beat a team like Iowa State. I don't think Purdue can handle Iowa State's guards (specifically, Monte Morris).
I think some of this is that our 3pt shooting has been much better in the first half then second. I think CMP is trying to get his shooter to get theirs while they are fresh, then bring Carsen in fresh when the other team is tired. I think it's been working. When Carsen plays well, he stays in. I do think Carsen brings a ton to the table and if he's rolling just let him roll!
Cline is only a "great" passer if you are using that term VERY loosely, as he is horrible at feeding the post and has had multiple really bad passes that not only resulted in turnovers, but often led to transition baskets the other way...and, if he is not hitting 3's (and he has not been), then the threat is not near as great as anyone would suggest...nor is there any benefit of spreading the floor.
He is very limited athletically, which hurts Purdue at both ends of the floor...and particularly so if he is not hitting 3's.
Getting Carsen out of the lineup for a game may have made sense...keeping him out for multiple games simply has/does not. He can do things that nobody else on the roster is capable of, and, he is the key likely as to whatever ultimately happens from this point on for Purdue.
But again, what is a recent game where he was doing great and Painter just pulled him? The fact of the matter is, when he's not played well (i.e. vs. Northwestern), he didn't play as much - but still played 15 minutes. He's not getting yanked as soon as he does 1 thing wrong. And when he's played well, he's played 25+ minutes.
The debate is simply whether he should have the honor of starting or not. He's been getting his minutes REGARDLESS. He is not "out of the lineup" anymore than he was before. This is basically becoming an argument about semantics and labels.
I actually think Cline has done a decent job feeding the post lately, but you're right - Carsen Edwards is the key to how far this team goes, in my opinion.
Carsen may be getting his minutes in most of these games but overall hasn't been better off the bench in a couple of the games. Were Carsen playing great off the bench and Cline doing well starting I'd be happy keeping the lineup but Cline's production has all but disappeared. Painter tweaked the line up for the first Michigan game and it didn't work. We can't even get Cline looks now with him starting alongside PJ and Mathias. I prefer Cline coming in with Haas to keep the defense honest later in half and hopefully he comes through with some big 3's when we need them.
To be honest, I don't really care which it is. I think it's amazing the amount of discussion about it when it's clear it's not affecting overall minutes.
It may not be affecting overall minutes but the productivity from the two of them combined is down. That is the important part and if going back to the lineup that produced the most from BOTH of them is the solution then that is what I support and want. I don't like starting 3 guards together who really can't create their own shots either.
But are there actual stats or your hunch?
Before Carsen started coming off the bench, his stats were:
Penn State: 1-8 shooting
Michigan State: 1-4 shooting
Rutgers: 3-11 shooting
That's a combined 5-23 shooting (22%).
He had 3 bad games in a row, and quite frankly they weren't against the greatest competition.
His production has not gone down since then. Consistency is an issue and we've had pretty consistent beginnings to games since. And again, he's gotten the same exact opportunities to play and earn minutes in the game since.
Your data is incomplete. You would need to list Cline's stats before the switch as well as both players stats after the switch as well as other important statistics like assists, rebounds, to's, steals and fouls.
But, the perception is that CE 'lost' his starting spot because he wasn't being productive or was making too many mistakes. Otherwise, why would MP have made the change?
I highly doubt it was Carsen's idea to take him out of the starting lineup.
I just don't know why MP messed with something that wasn't broken, particularly in the last few games of the season.
I highly doubt it was Carsen's idea to take him out of the starting lineup.
I just don't know why MP messed with something that wasn't broken, particularly in the last few games of the season.
I have little doubt that the perception you are talking about is only held by posters on this forum. Because based on his numbers, CE certainly hasn't had that perception.
And yes, it was broken and now has been resolved. I mean who seriously cares if CE doesn't play the first few minutes of the game? As someone else pointed out he still gets his minutes, he is in the game when he isn't in foul trouble and has the freedom to do just about whatever he wants when he is out on the court.
Some of you I swear just like to bitch about everything thing. Next you'll be complaining about the shoes Painter wears or his tie or how he parts his hair and that the lip balm he uses is what is causing us to not get to a Final Four.
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