Yogi is the 7th highest scorer in IU history. I think Edwards is going to be very good, but it's just wrong to make statements like you made aboutt any incoming recruit not named Ben Simmons.
Carsen E.
- Thread starter ddmills333
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Yogi is the 7th highest scorer in IU history. I think Edwards is going to be very good, but it's just wrong to make statements like you made aboutt any incoming recruit not named Ben Simmons.
When coming in to each program, the two players were very similar. Similar athletically but Yogi clearly was the better shooter at the time. Had RJ spent the time needed and necessary to become a better defensive player and jump shooter, he could have been on par with Yogi. The difference is that Yogi has spent time working on his game and has finally bought in to the idea of playing defense.
Ha, nice reference. Speaking of Simmons. Can't a team at least get into the big dance with the best player in the country? Wow. wth, If we think we have it bad in West Lafayette (which i don't, in fact I think we have one of the preeminent coaches in the big ten) then think about how bad we could be with LSU's coach.
people think that yogi is some kind of superstar, do you realize what his numbers looked like in his freshman and sophomore years.... so to say he's going to be like Yogi, isn't saying much, especially for the first couple years. Yogi was a wreck. I'm not really going out on a limb. Jesus.
Few thoughts:
- Kramer wasn't a point guard. At no point would I have ever considered him as such. He rarely defended the position and his handle wasn't anywhere good enough to be considered a 1. Moore played combo guard more than Kramer ever played point.
- Re: scoop shot layups - yeah, they can be effective for smaller players against shot blockers if their arms are long enough. It's not a viable weapon at this level for PJT. I'm not sure it'll be one for Edwards either. I agree that it's more likely than not he'll have to learn some other way to finish at the rim at 5'11", but his advantage over a guy like PJT is that he's more athletic, but he's still going to have to pick his spots like LewJack did as a junior and senior. His shooting will create space for drives combined with his quickness (which PJ doesn't really have), and I'm betting guys like Haas and Biggie will be the scoring beneficiaries moreso than Edwards.
- Not mentioned in this thread, but I've seen a lot of these PG discussions that talk about how people wish we'd had a PG that could hit an open 3 regularly. Edwards certainly seems to be that. I think a lot of people have overlooked PJT in this regard as well.
- We should be careful not to build up Edwards' game to be one thing at the college level. Painter, being a Keady disciple, is likely to make him into a more traditional point than Yogi is at this level. I don't think Purdue's ever going to see a PG who takes a bunch of shots in the motion offense or creates off the dribble as a general rule. Recall that Porter Roberts was the best player and leading scorer in the state of Tennessee in HS, but was never much of a scorer at Purdue (but was one whale of a defender and took care of the basketball). That's what I'd expect out of Edwards: a smaller version of Porter Roberts who happens to be a better shooter, NOT Yogi Ferrell. Rein it in.
- Kramer wasn't a point guard. At no point would I have ever considered him as such. He rarely defended the position and his handle wasn't anywhere good enough to be considered a 1. Moore played combo guard more than Kramer ever played point.
- Re: scoop shot layups - yeah, they can be effective for smaller players against shot blockers if their arms are long enough. It's not a viable weapon at this level for PJT. I'm not sure it'll be one for Edwards either. I agree that it's more likely than not he'll have to learn some other way to finish at the rim at 5'11", but his advantage over a guy like PJT is that he's more athletic, but he's still going to have to pick his spots like LewJack did as a junior and senior. His shooting will create space for drives combined with his quickness (which PJ doesn't really have), and I'm betting guys like Haas and Biggie will be the scoring beneficiaries moreso than Edwards.
- Not mentioned in this thread, but I've seen a lot of these PG discussions that talk about how people wish we'd had a PG that could hit an open 3 regularly. Edwards certainly seems to be that. I think a lot of people have overlooked PJT in this regard as well.
- We should be careful not to build up Edwards' game to be one thing at the college level. Painter, being a Keady disciple, is likely to make him into a more traditional point than Yogi is at this level. I don't think Purdue's ever going to see a PG who takes a bunch of shots in the motion offense or creates off the dribble as a general rule. Recall that Porter Roberts was the best player and leading scorer in the state of Tennessee in HS, but was never much of a scorer at Purdue (but was one whale of a defender and took care of the basketball). That's what I'd expect out of Edwards: a smaller version of Porter Roberts who happens to be a better shooter, NOT Yogi Ferrell. Rein it in.
Yogi as a freshman - 8 points, 2:1 A:TO ratio in 28 minutes.
Sophomore: 17 points, 40% from 3, 82% FT, slightly worse A:TO.
But no, you're not going out on a limb at all. Edwards is unlikely to match Yogi's sophomore production... ever. If he gets to Yogi's freshman level at some point, that's a pretty damn good player (assuming a better 3P%).
Even if you don't like Yogi, you have to respect him. He's athletic and skilled, and he's helped lead his team to much success this year.
Similarly, you have to respect Carsen and the way he's led his high school team to an undefeated (knocking), top-5-in-the-nation season.
These guys are at different stages of their lives & basketball careers. Both of them are impressive. IU got a good one when Yogi picked them, and we have a good one in Carsen coming in.
What about freshman Yogi vs. incoming freshman Carsen? Well, hindsight 20-20 it would be hard to not pick Yogi if you had a guarantee he would have become a similarly valuable player at Purdue. Yogi became one of the standout B1G point guards of the past decade.
BUT as someone else indicated, I'm pretty sure Carsen is more mature & disciplined now than Yogi was at the same age, and Carsen's results speak for themselves. I'm SO very glad Carsen picked Purdue, and I can't wait to see what he can do here.
Similarly, you have to respect Carsen and the way he's led his high school team to an undefeated (knocking), top-5-in-the-nation season.
These guys are at different stages of their lives & basketball careers. Both of them are impressive. IU got a good one when Yogi picked them, and we have a good one in Carsen coming in.
What about freshman Yogi vs. incoming freshman Carsen? Well, hindsight 20-20 it would be hard to not pick Yogi if you had a guarantee he would have become a similarly valuable player at Purdue. Yogi became one of the standout B1G point guards of the past decade.
BUT as someone else indicated, I'm pretty sure Carsen is more mature & disciplined now than Yogi was at the same age, and Carsen's results speak for themselves. I'm SO very glad Carsen picked Purdue, and I can't wait to see what he can do here.
In fairness, Yogi wasn't that impressive until this year. He was a stat guy and this year he became a winner.
Yogi was the weak link in all the success his freshman year. See the Syracuse game. I never looked at him as anyone I would want on my team until this season.
As far as Carsen Edwards goes, he probably is about 5'11 but he can dunk easily so he's got some hops. You can see it in his videos. Just because Keady and Painter (to a lesser degree, IMO) stuck/stick their square pegs into round holes (i.e. scoring point guards) most of the time doesn't mean that's always the right way to coach/encourage them offensively. Ronnie Johnson was/is just a low IQ basketball player, that was his main issue. If CMP mismanages Carsen Edwards, there will be a new AD coming in and hopefully one that doesn't tolerate the same coaching mistakes or rigidness over and over again and makes swift changes when needed.
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I agree, actually. As good as I think and hope CE will be, it will be hard to match Yogis stats. Yogis FR year was in that stacked IU team with Oladipo, Zeller, Shehey, Watford. That's one hell of a lineup. But from then to now, Yogi has been the unquestioned leader on the team, and the primary scorer. I'm not sure if CE will get that opportunity in the motion offense we play, especially having players like VEdwards, Swanigan, Haas, Mathias, Cline, all around him with more experience. I hope CE does initiate the offense and create his own and for others, like what Yogi does, but asking CE to match or top the performance of Yogi is just unfair. Yogi has been a damn good player for IU, period, and that's hard to say for a PU fan. I think CE may very well be as good, but the stats won't reflect because as a team, we don't have our PGs typically put up big numbers while having team success.
I hope CE gets to create more as well but we know he's going to be coached to look for Haas and Swanigan as options 1 or 1A in the half-court offense. It wouldn't hurt Coach Painter to have his teams learn and play different offensive styles in games besides the halfcourt motion (spread, pro-style, etc.), but you know that he seems to accept and adapt to new things and ideas at a painfully slow pace.
And iu fans repeatedly came over here to insist that Ron Patterson was better than Rapheal Davis. lol. So what's your point?
no sir, yogi was stronger. came in with a bigger rep, was a better shooter. In fact Yogi was just all around better. The only reason there was a comparison between Yogi and RJ was because their freshman stats were similar even though RJ had a bigger role as a freshman than Yogi did. That was it. Eye test though, Yogi was better.
I hope he plays well, but doesn't look demon-possessed!
To point out, I did mention in my post that Yogi was the better shooter. I also mentioned that had RJ spent the time in the gym and bought in as Yogi has, he could have made leaps in his development. To Yogi's credit, he has done just that. RJ had an upper hand in his ability off the dribble, IMO. If he could have built off that, he could have been a solid player at the point for Purdue with the talent around him.
Hmmm, only 23 points? Yeh, off night. Good luck with the remainder of your team's quest to win state, Carsen! One game at a time...
Did he get his 23 points on a relatively low volume of shot attempts? How do you think he played overall?
I'm not sure I follow you? Are there point guards that you think that Painter was holding back who should have gotten more freedom? If so, who? PJ, Octeus, Hill, Scott, RJ, LewJack?
If you ask me, Painter has done a tremendous job with PJ. Given PJ's limitations, an offensive rating above 140 and a 6:1 A/TO ratio are simply incredible stats. He's also done a great job with Hill, who was an average player at UT Arlington and now has had a very good year in the Big Ten. He also did great with Octeus and LewJack. RJ and Scott struggled, but it's not like they had a bunch of high major offers when they transferred.
If Edwards is coachable, he seems like a great fit and I think he'll do very well. It's great that he's a scorer. He'll be given the freedom to do so, as long as he's patient and lets the motion work so that he can do so with an advantage.
He could have had his players space the floor better (spread) and isolate players like Octeus and Hill to have more one-on-one opportunities before defenses collapse. The same goes for LewJack, Kramer, and Keaton Grant (before his tendinitis surgery). He has them get set up for their halfcourt motion probably 90% of their overall possessions. They don't have to run the same basic outline scheme every single possession. That gets predictable and good teams can find ways to stifle it. That holds some of his players and his Purdue teams back to a degree, IMO.
I agree that he's done a good job with P.J. but he does well in the motion in part because the scheme covers up (to a degree) that he is less athletically-gifted than some of the recent Boilers PG's (Hill, Octeus, Barlow, LewJack, and Grant (pre-surgery)).
Hill was the starting PG at UT-Arlington and at Illinois State his sophomore season. Players are typically less efficient when they don't have as many quality players/teammates surrounding them. His sophomore stats at Illinois State were better than his junior stats at UT-Arlington and similar to his numbers put up so far this season:
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/2287/year/2013/illinois-state-redbirds
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Post game CE was asked what was needed to win state: "focus and defense" was his only answer
I thought that he got LewJack in isolation with great spacing a lot. His issue with RJ is that Purdue didn't have enough reliable shooters to really spread the floor.
He might have every now-and-then but I don't recall him consistently setting possessions up to iso LewJack. He still could have done it more often, especially with some of the others I mentioned.
I think what can be said is that Carsen is on a winning team...a very good team and "a" main player on that team. His various comments that were on video from time to time indicate a fairly mature, respectable person that doesn't bring his ego to the forefront. He is an above average athlete and has great range on his shot. He also appears to have an in-between game in "high school" that can't get quite as deep in college for him to still be effective. I've seen him make one handed passes with either hand and THAT is impressive. What makes it so difficult for me is that I have no comparison in his competition to tell how quick he is relative to the next level. His demeanor and some of his play reminds me of Melo and that is not to suggest he will be as good...which he may, that is up to him. What I can tell is that he will be expected to use a lot more energy on defense than many of the videos I see. Sometimes he makes a good play on D, but that is due to superior athleticism in high school it seems, more than D positioning and focus. It is safe to say that he won't be allowed the freedom he has in high school, but then again ...how many college players are allowed the same freedoms? Same goes for going from college to the NBA.
Perhaps, but LewJack was 5'6" without a consistent outside shot. He played with guys like Moore, JJ, and Hummel. I'm not sure why Painter would want to run more isolation for LewJack than he did (which was really quite a bit).
BTW, I remember a lot of games where Purdue set a lot of high ball screens for LewJack and let him create. (A good example would be at home against MSU as a junior.)
Actually, there were 2-5 plays per game that were isolation plays for LewJack. At least that was about the number where he was successful, IIRC. That is a pretty significant number. It often depended on the skills and speed of the opponent guarding him. LewJack was fast/quick, but so were a number of opponents. I think you are mistaken when recalling just how much LewJack was used in isolation. In the BIG, neither Hill nor PJ is quick enough score on an isolation play unless they can get a mismatch, and that won't happen except against the worst defensive teams.
As for RJ, he had delusions that nobody as faster than him, and would attempt isolation plays all by himself with the opponents bigs hanging around to block. He played dumb at times, attempting to put the team on his back.
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