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Brexit

The thing about liberals is that if you do not agree with them it is due to fear, and you are immediately branded a bigot, a xenophobe and a racist. In this thread we have Gr8, 44 and qaz playing the Hate card because I am not brain-dead to the very real and well-demonstrated possibility of jihad by immigrant moslems and their progeny. And even if they don't do it, do you understand the enormous expense and manpower needed to keep these Islamic goons under 24/7 surveillance?

And maybe Merkel's open door policy isn't a good idea for reasons other than Hate? Like national security, domestic security, cultural suicide, massive additions to the welfare state?

Conservatives really should start playing the Hate card against liberals who disagree with them. Goes like this: What do you guys think of expanding the KKK and Aryan Nation in America's heartland? You don't think it's a good idea? Why, you are bigots and xenophobes and obviously racist.
gr8 is not a liberal, in general. He says he's a fiscal conservative and is more center-left on social issues. He doesn't like Trump but has voted for Republicans like GHWB and GWB in the past. He is in the military and should be congratulated for his service to our nation. He has stood up to the Chinese recently in the South China Sea, for instance.

gr8 and I don't agree on some issues, but he is one of the more evenhanded posters on this board. He doesn't like it when people blame all of the world's woes on Muslims. To a point, he has a point on this issue. (He may not like the fact that I stood up for him on this board, but I do respect him and his service to our great nation.)
 
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The thing about liberals is that if you do not agree with them it is due to fear, and you are immediately branded a bigot, a xenophobe and a racist. In this thread we have Gr8, 44 and qaz playing the Hate card because I am not brain-dead to the very real and well-demonstrated possibility of jihad by immigrant moslems and their progeny. And even if they don't do it, do you understand the enormous expense and manpower needed to keep these Islamic goons under 24/7 surveillance?

And maybe Merkel's open door policy isn't a good idea for reasons other than Hate? Like national security, domestic security, cultural suicide, massive additions to the welfare state?

Conservatives really should start playing the Hate card against liberals who disagree with them. Goes like this: What do you guys think of expanding the KKK and Aryan Nation in America's heartland? You don't think it's a good idea? Why, you are bigots and xenophobes and obviously racist.
See what you just did there is as ridiculous as grouping all Muslims together because pretty obviously not all white people are Aryan, let alone member of Aryan Nation, and not the KKK either. It's actually a really good argument AGAINST the position you're trying to make because, yep, no one would make such a ridiculous assertion against all white people, so why should we do the same against all Muslims?

I'm hardly in the same class of political leaning as qaz in most respects. But I understand why many of the people on this board would think so. Many of you guys are pretty extreme conservatives, but don't want to be labeled as such because Trump and populism. Fact is, that string of populism is even further right than your typical run of the mill Republican. That guys like TSB think they're middle of the road certainly explains why you guys would think I'm a bleeding heart liberal. When you're so far to one side yourself, someone who closer to the center looks like an extremist the other way to you.

SDBoiler, for as much as we disagree on some stuff, at least he sees things in proper perspective. Some of you other guys, man...
 
Did you read that? The term is now being used to mock the racism against Muslims that caused its coining in the first place!
Did YOU read it?

" The mid- to late 1990s were the years when Britain's capital earned the sobriquet of "Londonistan," a title provided by French officials infuriated at the growing presence of Islamist radicals in London and the failure of British authorities to do anything about it. [...] Raids in France and Belgium had produced phone and fax numbers linked to the United Kingdom, and names of suspects were passed on. Some French officials believe that if more had been done by Britain at the time, the network behind the summer of 1995 bombings might have been broken up and the attacks prevented.[6]"

" The perception of "Londonistan" is powered by the strong foothold of Islamic radical fundamentalism in the region.[8][9] It is believed that the "Londonistan" environment radicalizes British Muslim youth (involving the strife in identity politics, such as the perception of racism and decadence in British culture) and that it is ineffective in combating the Islamic radical entities.[10]"

" Several non-British major newspapers have echoed the claim that the UK intentionally tolerates radical Muslims and hinders extradition of suspects in order to buy peace from terrorists.[11]"[

" Hundreds of extremists from the Middle East and North Africa used the capital – dubbed Londonistan by exasperated French security officials – to plot the downfall of governments in countries such as Egypt, Yemen and Algeria. Some of the groups had ties to Qatada and were often affiliates of Al Qaeda. But the police and security services effectively turned a blind eye to their activities. It was only after 9/11 that officials began rounding up the ringleaders and trying to either deport them or subject them to control orders."

And thank you for your service Gr8. I served 28 years active duty in the US Army and retired as a colonel (O-6).
 
Right, and then:

"With the election of Mayor Sadiq Kahn, Richard Seymour wrote an essay in Al Jazeeraheadlined, "Sadiq Khan's victory and free Londonistan," claiming that that the term Londonistan was being, "joyfully, ironically appropriated by those who are glad to see a racist campaign defeated. Welcome to the 21st century. Welcome to free Londonistan." in an article in Al Jazeera"
 
See what you just did there is as ridiculous as grouping all Muslims together because pretty obviously not all white people are Aryan, let alone member of Aryan Nation, and not the KKK either. It's actually a really good argument AGAINST the position you're trying to make because, yep, no one would make such a ridiculous assertion against all white people, so why should we do the same against all Muslims?

I'm hardly in the same class of political leaning as qaz in most respects. But I understand why many of the people on this board would think so. Many of you guys are pretty extreme conservatives, but don't want to be labeled as such because Trump and populism. Fact is, that string of populism is even further right than your typical run of the mill Republican. That guys like TSB think they're middle of the road certainly explains why you guys would think I'm a bleeding heart liberal. When you're so far to one side yourself, someone who closer to the center looks like an extremist the other way to you.

SDBoiler, for as much as we disagree on some stuff, at least he sees things in proper perspective. Some of you other guys, man...
I'm not even all that liberal. I mean I'm solidly liberal, proud of it. But plenty of liberals think I'm a sell-out.
 
Scotland is going to leave the UK now, and there is talk of NI unifying with Ireland and even Wales going independent. I suspect it's just going to be England 10 years from now, and just England is not all that more important economically-speaking if at all then France and certainly well less
so than Germany. They may gain their "independence" but they are going to lose quite a bit more IMO.

What do you think they are going to lose? Long before the EU the countries in Europe had favorable trade agreements with each other and cooperated on diplomatic issues. For decades as a group they kept out US and Far Eastern countries by setting import quotas, etc. other than the political upheaval I am at a loss to see how, in the long run, their economies are going to suffer.
 
What do you think they are going to lose? Long before the EU the countries in Europe had favorable trade agreements with each other and cooperated on diplomatic issues. For decades as a group they kept out US and Far Eastern countries by setting import quotas, etc. other than the political upheaval I am at a loss to see how, in the long run, their economies are going to suffer.
Population England, 53 million. Population Scotland, 5.2 million. Wales isn't going anywhere.
 
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Did YOU read it?

" The mid- to late 1990s were the years when Britain's capital earned the sobriquet of "Londonistan," a title provided by French officials infuriated at the growing presence of Islamist radicals in London and the failure of British authorities to do anything about it. [...] Raids in France and Belgium had produced phone and fax numbers linked to the United Kingdom, and names of suspects were passed on. Some French officials believe that if more had been done by Britain at the time, the network behind the summer of 1995 bombings might have been broken up and the attacks prevented.[6]"

" The perception of "Londonistan" is powered by the strong foothold of Islamic radical fundamentalism in the region.[8][9] It is believed that the "Londonistan" environment radicalizes British Muslim youth (involving the strife in identity politics, such as the perception of racism and decadence in British culture) and that it is ineffective in combating the Islamic radical entities.[10]"

" Several non-British major newspapers have echoed the claim that the UK intentionally tolerates radical Muslims and hinders extradition of suspects in order to buy peace from terrorists.[11]"[

" Hundreds of extremists from the Middle East and North Africa used the capital – dubbed Londonistan by exasperated French security officials – to plot the downfall of governments in countries such as Egypt, Yemen and Algeria. Some of the groups had ties to Qatada and were often affiliates of Al Qaeda. But the police and security services effectively turned a blind eye to their activities. It was only after 9/11 that officials began rounding up the ringleaders and trying to either deport them or subject them to control orders."

And thank you for your service Gr8. I served 28 years active duty in the US Army and retired as a colonel (O-6).
Thank you for your service, Colonel. I bet you've got some stories to tell of your own.
 
I'm not even all that liberal. I mean I'm solidly liberal, proud of it. But plenty of liberals think I'm a sell-out.
Maybe the folks in-line with Bernie Sanders and leaning to the left even more than him (the almost-Anarchist wing of the Democrat party.)
 
Poll is virtually tied for Stay/Leave. British press says older people concerned about loss of sovereignty and immigration (more moslems) if they stay while young people worried about job losses if they leave. Vote is June 23.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/06/britain-s-eu-referendum

Take back England.......Defeat THE NEW WORLD ORDER. Congratulations to the English people. They know. Does America or is it still a conspiracy theory now? America is next...as Trump said. Declaration of Independence.
 
Maybe the folks in-line with Bernie Sanders and leaning to the left even more than him (the almost-Anarchist wing of the Democrat party.)
Well, that's similar to the Cruz folks who ran around saying Rubio and Bush weren't conservative enough. It's all silly. Center right and left are viewed as weak and compromise is weak and eceryone wants their way 100%. Sit ins and govt shutdowns... Word the F together, people! I don't care "who started it"! Rise above the bullshit.
 
Well, that's similar to the Cruz folks who ran around saying Rubio and Bush weren't conservative enough. It's all silly. Center right and left are viewed as weak and compromise is weak and eceryone wants their way 100%. Sit ins and govt shutdowns... Word the F together, people! I don't care "who started it"! Rise above the bullshit.
Can't disagree. American politics is more polarized than ever. For a man who campaigned on bringing the country together, President Obama has been the most divisive President I ever remember. Compromise is not in his vocabulary.

The Republican Establishment and the so-called Tea Party have not helped either. It's almost like both parties want things to be this way...that it's part of a bigger, more sinister plan...(j/k, not j/k)
 
What do you think they are going to lose? Long before the EU the countries in Europe had favorable trade agreements with each other and cooperated on diplomatic issues. For decades as a group they kept out US and Far Eastern countries by setting import quotas, etc. other than the political upheaval I am at a loss to see how, in the long run, their economies are going to suffer.
Fav trade status with Europe they had before
Exports will suffer
The removal from the EU is not going to all of a sudden create blue collar jobs in Britain.
Pound devalued.
Loss of Scotland and NI. Imagine if Texas and California went independent and the effect on our economy.
Economists UNIVERSALLY say this will be bad not just for England's economy, but the world's. It ain't just "liberal" economists saying it.
 
Can't disagree. American politics is more polarized than ever. For a man who campaigned on bringing the country together, President Obama has been the most divisive President I ever remember. Compromise is not in his vocabulary.

The Republican Establishment and the so-called Tea Party have not helped either. It's almost like both parties want things to be this way...that it's part of a bigger, more sinister plan...(j/k, not j/k)
you mean the guy sitting at 53-56 percent approval ratings right now in Gallup and ABC/Post, and 50 or above in every single rating I've seen recently? Reagan was 49-50 in June of 88.
 
Maybe the folks in-line with Bernie Sanders and leaning to the left even more than him (the almost-Anarchist wing of the Democrat party.)
the folks in line with Bernie Sanders number in the tens of millions based on votes and pollings do they not?
 
The Republican Establishment and the so-called Tea Party have not helped either. It's almost like both parties want things to be this way...that it's part of a bigger, more sinister plan...(j/k, not j/k)
Wife and I were talking about the rise of third parties historically in this country. The troubling part for me is that our two current parties are trending apart, and third parties rarely rise in the middle. We were discussing voting Libertarian, which we both may do in the GE if for no other reason than HRC is going to win CA anyway. If it somehow became close in this state where Trump had a chance, I'd vote HRC for sure. I don't know what I'm going to do yet, but I wish there was a party that actually represented my beliefs (the Libertarians are probably closest in a lot of ways, but I have some real disagreements with them that could be equally deal-killing). I'm best off remaining an I, but like a for-realz I, not a Bernie I.
 
you mean the guy sitting at 53-56 percent approval ratings right now in Gallup and ABC/Post, and 50 or above in every single rating I've seen recently? Reagan was 49-50 in June of 88.
This is an interesting dichotomy with Obama. He is popular as a man, however his policies and stances aren't popular.
 
Wife and I were talking about the rise of third parties historically in this country. The troubling part for me is that our two current parties are trending apart, and third parties rarely rise in the middle. We were discussing voting Libertarian, which we both may do in the GE if for no other reason than HRC is going to win CA anyway. If it somehow became close in this state where Trump had a chance, I'd vote HRC for sure. I don't know what I'm going to do yet, but I wish there was a party that actually represented my beliefs (the Libertarians are probably closest in a lot of ways, but I have some real disagreements with them that could be equally deal-killing). I'm best off remaining an I, but like a for-realz I, not a Bernie I.
The current political system is set up to basically discount and discredit any party not Republican or Democrat. It's more difficult now for an Independent to run and win than at any time in the history of the nation due to the amount of $ required to run a "normal" campaign (HRC needing $1B+, for instance). The Citizen's United case was the last straw, IMHO. Now $ can be funneled from any number of groups and countries, often hidden behind a wall so the $'s origins can't be easily traced.

The politicians in this country are truly bought and sold. Republicans and Democrats (especially Junior politicians) are all required to spend 4 hours of every day they are in Washington trying to raise money for their parties, not doing the work of the people.
 
This is an interesting dichotomy with Obama. He is popular as a man, however his policies and stances aren't popular.
every policy individually in obamacare is over 50 percent save one, the mandate, and of course people don't like having to actually pay for stuff.

Policy on gay rights, over 50 percent.
Policy on minimum wage, over 50 percent.
Policy on tax cuts for the top 1 percent, over 50 percent.

He got elected twice, comfortably. Please point out the policies that "aren't popular" as in over 50 percent. I'm sure there are a couple, no President has full popularity, but just throwing out that statement with no evidence sounds like weak sauce.
 
The thing about liberals is that if you do not agree with them it is due to fear, and you are immediately branded a bigot, a xenophobe and a racist. In this thread we have Gr8, 44 and qaz playing the Hate card because I am not brain-dead to the very real and well-demonstrated possibility of jihad by immigrant moslems and their progeny. And even if they don't do it, do you understand the enormous expense and manpower needed to keep these Islamic goons under 24/7 surveillance?

And maybe Merkel's open door policy isn't a good idea for reasons other than Hate? Like national security, domestic security, cultural suicide, massive additions to the welfare state?

Conservatives really should start playing the Hate card against liberals who disagree with them. Goes like this: What do you guys think of expanding the KKK and Aryan Nation in America's heartland? You don't think it's a good idea? Why, you are bigots and xenophobes and obviously racist.

If.i hadn't been reading the GD board for a while, I would be stupefied at this post.

You complain about liberals "playing" the race card, and branding all conservatives as bigots. Then you immediately espouse bigoted and xenoohobic statements.

You may want to pretend your broad-brush position opposing an entire religion is normal and rational, but it's not normal at all.

You may want to put on a brave face and state that your positions against "Moslems" (your spelling) is based on something other than irrational fear, but it absolutely is.

I don't know you, have no opinion on you as a person- either good or bad. The deflection of calling me a liberal only works as distraction for those people who accept that term as derogatory. It does nothing to change what was the primary motivation of "Brexit", nor does it change some of your xenoohobic statements.
 
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every policy individually in obamacare is over 50 percent save one, the mandate, and of course people don't like having to actually pay for stuff.

Policy on gay rights, over 50 percent.
Policy on minimum wage, over 50 percent.
Policy on tax cuts for the top 1 percent, over 50 percent.

He got elected twice, comfortably. Please point out the policies that "aren't popular" as in over 50 percent. I'm sure there are a couple, no President has full popularity, but just throwing out that statement with no evidence sounds like weak sauce.
Obamacare has problems other than popularity. The health insurance companies have quickly learned that the previously uninsured suddenly become heavy users under Obamacare and they quickly run up health care costs in excess of that $99/mo they're paying into the system. "Obexit" is well under way and the nation's largest healthcare provider is leading the way....

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/unitedhealthcare-to-pull-out-of-obamacare-markets-in-california/
 
every policy individually in obamacare is over 50 percent save one, the mandate, and of course people don't like having to actually pay for stuff.

Policy on gay rights, over 50 percent.
Policy on minimum wage, over 50 percent.
Policy on tax cuts for the top 1 percent, over 50 percent.

He got elected twice, comfortably. Please point out the policies that "aren't popular" as in over 50 percent. I'm sure there are a couple, no President has full popularity, but just throwing out that statement with no evidence sounds like weak sauce.
Not sure where you get detailed polls on every Obama policy. moveon.org?

1) How about his deal with Iran to start.
2) Obama's incoherent war on terror. (led to the strengthening of ISIS)
3) His continual efforts to seemingly promote Islam in the USA.
4) His immigration policy.
5) Shoving transgender bathrooms down the nation's throat.

That's just a start...
 
Fav trade status with Europe they had before
Exports will suffer
The removal from the EU is not going to all of a sudden create blue collar jobs in Britain.
Pound devalued.
Loss of Scotland and NI. Imagine if Texas and California went independent and the effect on our economy.
Economists UNIVERSALLY say this will be bad not just for England's economy, but the world's. It ain't just "liberal" economists saying it.

UNIVERSALLY...just because you say so doesn't make it so.

http://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/bravo-brexit/
 
Not sure where you get detailed polls on every Obama policy. moveon.org?

1) How about his deal with Iran to start.
2) Obama's incoherent war on terror. (led to the strengthening of ISIS)
3) His continual efforts to seemingly promote Islam in the USA.
4) His immigration policy.
5) Shoving transgender bathrooms down the nation's throat.

That's just a start...
you made a blanket statement that his policies were not liked. Still sticking with that blanket statement or no? His policies are liked by a lot of people, and disliked by a lot of people, and those tend to fall straight down political lines...Dems love em, Reps hate em, Indies like some, hate others. But overall, Indies right now like a little more than they don't like...and then they see how he compares to what's coming next and they like him and his policies a little bit more.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/09/politics/poll-transgender-bathroom-law-north-carolina/index.html
6/10 opposed NC's bathroom law.

lol at efforts to promote Islam.

His approval on immigration has been all over the place depending on how close Congress is or isn't to an actual immigration bill being passed. When it's close, it rises, when it's not, it falls.

His approval ratings on terrorism have also been all over the place rising with success and falling with setbacks.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/opinions-about-the-iran-deal-are-more-about-obama-than-iran/
The Iran deal, rises and falls as well. Of course, as each month goes by and Iran does not have a nuke and isn't making progress towards a nuke, that deal is going to look better and better.
 
The exit is not treating the soccer team well.
Wow!
Do those lawn fairies have day jobs?
you made a blanket statement that his policies were not liked. Still sticking with that blanket statement or no? His policies are liked by a lot of people, and disliked by a lot of people, and those tend to fall straight down political lines...Dems love em, Reps hate em, Indies like some, hate others. But overall, Indies right now like a little more than they don't like...and then they see how he compares to what's coming next and they like him and his policies a little bit more.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/09/politics/poll-transgender-bathroom-law-north-carolina/index.html
6/10 opposed NC's bathroom law.

lol at efforts to promote Islam.

His approval on immigration has been all over the place depending on how close Congress is or isn't to an actual immigration bill being passed. When it's close, it rises, when it's not, it falls.

His approval ratings on terrorism have also been all over the place rising with success and falling with setbacks.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/opinions-about-the-iran-deal-are-more-about-obama-than-iran/
The Iran deal, rises and falls as well. Of course, as each month goes by and Iran does not have a nuke and isn't making progress towards a nuke, that deal is going to look better and better.
Good read...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/brexit-and-the-future-of-islam_us_577203b7e4b06721d4c122a5
 
That guys like TSB think they're middle of the road certainly explains why you guys would think I'm a bleeding heart liberal. When you're so far to one side yourself, someone who closer to the center looks like an extremist the other way to you.
What? This is so unfair. I have never said "I'm middle of the road". I said I'm independent. Those are not equatable. I said I think my position on immigration is more center than you like to believe. And I do believe that and the polls support it. However, I'm not generally center. I am usually pretty firmly one way or the other.
 
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