Caleb was not a dominant player. If he was Purdue would have won the Big.
Biggie and Barnes
- Thread starter paintball1979
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in an article for CBS Sports on April 22nd, Jon Feinstein wrote about the top 20 underclassmen who should go back to college and why , Caleb was one of them.
I think he meant Rothstein. Here is link.
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebas...draft-who-would-be-smart-to-return-to-college
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebas...draft-who-would-be-smart-to-return-to-college
Article is by Rothstein actually...nothing overly deep, and just his opinion obviously, but I don't think what he said with respect to Caleb specifically is not anything that most already feel and have discussed on here.
Here is an article ranking the underclassmen that have declared for the draft.
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebas...-underclassmen-who-has-declared-for-the-draft
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Don't disagree with what is written, but also don't think there is any 'expert info' going into what he wrote. National writers are good for some things but do not spend much time following individual players other than Duke, UK, etc. You tend to see a lot of talking points regurgitated in these articles.
Honestly, I think these draft experts are pretty much scam artists. Just look how the NFL draft went down. The experts had Tunsil and Miles Jack going in the top 5. But they weren't in on half the information the teams had access to, which resulted in the projections being way off.
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This is absolute bullshit.
FYI - MSU's last 5 star was in 2012 (Gary Harris), then their next one is in the 2016 class. They've had more 3 stars than 4 stars in-between that.
Just so we're clear, I wasn't even considering MSU as one of the teams that routinely lose guys early. I consider Kansas, Kentucky, Duke and UNC to be those kind of teams. They have 4/5 stars coming and going every year and often multiple ones per year. My point was that losing a 4/5 star early is not nearly as worrisome for a program like that as it is for PU because we don't have others coming in to replace them. Davis is only the 2nd player to leave MSU after 1 year (Randolph is the other). There have only been 6 players leave with eligibility still remaining. MSU isn't even in the same league as the other programs I listed when it comes to turnover in talent.
The poster I was responding to had said possibly losing Caleb was a good problem to have because it means we are recruiting better players that might leave early. While I agree with that on the surface, it only works if you have other great players coming to replace them. Otherwise you are just getting a bump for the limited time the great player stays.
I find myself disagreeing with you on many things Biggie. He was a hard worker, but to state he worked harder than anyone else is just your opinion unless you are there everyday, all day. He certainly showed signs of selfishness, nothing against him and not unexpected. One could interpret his constant wrestling with teammates for rebounds as intensity, it also could be taken another way. But I think it was pretty obvious he wanted his points.......especially early in the game. If he didn't get points early he took ill advised shots.......and sometimes it didn't matter as he took more than his share of bad shots. You may interpret that as something other than being selfish, but it sure seemed that way when watching. I suppose he could have believed that him scoring more was good for the team, doesn't make it true.
As for the ALR game, the team was doing pretty well with his diminished minutes,......and I think that was by design. If Rosy didn't like that then maybe it's better if Biggie moves on.
Imo Painter made the adjustment to go small not to matchup with ALR, but to be able to handle the pressure. Pj and Hill were ineffective and something had to be done. It didn't work out.......as it hadn't all year, but imo he was trying something he should have tried earlier in the year. I'm not sure how Biggie would have made any difference in that situation. Biggie held the ball too long all year long, not exactly what we needed in a game where they were collapsing every time the ball went to the paint.
He was a very effective rebounder and could generate points in the paint if left alone long enough. He would have/will make the adjustment but he was still playing the way he played in high school. Very understandable but not effective with a post centric team. He was a liability on defense all year, to the point he was actually guarding the other team's 2 in some games.
Take a deep breath....he will return! I guarantee it! So don't bash the kid for believing in his dreams and trying to figure out what needs to be done to get there.
Thank god... a guarantee that we can rely upon.
Now I can certainly rest well having received this assurance.
I totally agree with you, and yes, honestly, this does make the decision more suspenseful. But you have to start somewhere. Few coaches grab four McD All-Americans in their first foray into the world of blue blood recruiting, and I'm hoping recruiting success will beget recruiting success. Whether Biggie leads us to great heights next year or makes a name for himself in the League, Painter can reference him in future recruiting battles. Obviously, I'd prefer he stay, but getting him was an important first step in what I hope will be an improved recruiting reputation.
Swanigan was freshman, yes he made mistakes , he also played well most of the time , to me Swanigan is a winner, does what it takes to win, yes he didn't make every shot when it was needed but he will be better this year, I am hoping he comes back and plays for Purdue this coming year, then has a long NBA career, just my opinion
I highly doubt Caleb will come back for one year and then go to the NBA.
I don't know his grades, but watching him on TV, I think he's a smart young man. Thus Caleb will come back for a minimum of two years, before going to the NBA. He will still be a young man and he'll improve his all around game. Moreover, I think in two years we'll have the best front court in College and hopefully be in the final four. NBA teams want leaders that win. However, the biggest winner will be Caleb. Basketball isn't everything and Caleb needs to experience the joy and learning that one gets with a good education. He will then go on and have a long NBA career that comparatively will be over in the twinkling of an eye. Each year he stays, he'll double his income.
BTW, since I wanted Haas and AJ to play more together, once AJ returned, I took notice of the times Haas and AJ were off the court at the same time. Our small ball lineup should have made a difference, but only once did it become favorable.
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Very delusional post if you actually believe he'll come back for a minimum of two years. He's made it pretty clear he's gone if a team will draft him.
[QUOTE="JohnHoosierr,Very delusional post if you actually believe he'll come back for a minimum of two years.[/QUOTE]
You must think Caleb is pretty stupid then. If he waits 2 years, he will get twice the money. Project that over a 5 year career and that is pretty significant. Furthermore Caleb is young and should have a ten year career. That means a lot more money plus the maturity to handle it.
Factor in that a good education will benefit him greatly over the next 70 years and he will stay a minimum of 2 years.
You must think Caleb is pretty stupid then. If he waits 2 years, he will get twice the money. Project that over a 5 year career and that is pretty significant. Furthermore Caleb is young and should have a ten year career. That means a lot more money plus the maturity to handle it.
Factor in that a good education will benefit him greatly over the next 70 years and he will stay a minimum of 2 years.
He was actually one of the worst players on the team, in terms of Win Shares and Plus/Minus.
His talent is undeniable, but effectiveness was not a strong suit of his at the 4 position. He was a work in progress, and it showed.
Would you mind sharing the information on the plus/minus and the win shares? I'm really interested in seeing that data. There were many times this past season I was convinced we were playing better without him on the floor, but would like to see some analysis of that.
Work in progress is a very good way of putting it. He has potential to be a very good college player. Maybe we'll get to see that development this coming season.
Sure thing.
1) Box Score Plus/Minus: Box score estimate of the points per 100 possessions a player contributed to above a league-average player, translated to an average team:
- A.J. Hammons 11.9
- Johnny Hill 10.1
- Vince Edwards 9.2
- Jacquil Taylor 8.8
- P.J. Thompson 8.3
- Dakota Mathias 6.6
- Isaac Haas 6.1
- Rapheal Davis 5.3
- Ryan Cline 5.1
- Kendall Stephens 4.8
- Caleb Swanigan 4
- Stephen Toyra -1.6
- Grady Eifert -5.7
2) Win Shares Per 40 Minutes: An estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player per 40 minutes:
- A.J. Hammons 0.241
- Isaac Haas 0.236
- Vince Edwards 0.18
- Johnny Hill 0.177
- Jacquil Taylor 0.17
- P.J. Thompson 0.169
- Dakota Mathias 0.153
- Ryan Cline 0.132
- Kendall Stephens 0.126
- Caleb Swanigan 0.119
- Rapheal Davis 0.112
- Grady Eifert 0.067
- Stephen Toyra 0.045
Obviously, these stats have flaws, and are not end all be all, but they still are undeniably telling.
I'm not sure that either or both are undeniably telling.
Actually, I am not sure either 1) what these "stats" show or 2) how they are computed.
i believe this source matches his data above, where you can look at all kinds of stats.
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/purdue/2016.html
Maybe "undeniably" wasn't the best word.
Regardless, your attempt to discredit has been noted.
The bottom line is this. Caleb is a very good basketball player, who has the drive to be excellent. He must keep his passion to start in the NBA in due time.
However, he must rule basketball and not let basketball rule him. What this means is that most kids are lured by the dream that they can play in the NBA. Few make it and they bypass the education that is far more important. Caleb's father should stress to him that he can go for the lure and make a lot of money being a journeyman player or he can take his time, work at his game and get educated.
However, he must rule basketball and not let basketball rule him. What this means is that most kids are lured by the dream that they can play in the NBA. Few make it and they bypass the education that is far more important. Caleb's father should stress to him that he can go for the lure and make a lot of money being a journeyman player or he can take his time, work at his game and get educated.
My only issue is with the bolded part. At this point he isn't even in the "Journeyman" status. He is in the D league status and that is extremely risky. If he were actually getting graded out as a 2nd round pick I could see the lure of leaving and giving it a try. The D league is a far cry from a journeyman in the NBA and that is where he is right now.
Article with some quotes about his workout with the Suns
http://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...ors-test-new-draft-early-entry-rule/84563560/
http://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...ors-test-new-draft-early-entry-rule/84563560/
What Biggie says in this article is very telling. He's using the process to make himself better, and if it so happens that a pro team wants him badly enough and drafts him, he'll go, otherwise he'll come back to Purdue having improved his understanding and skillset by going through the process.
Quoting the article posted below:
Today on The Dan Dakich Show, host Dan Dakich stated that a reliable contact has told him "Swanigan would rather play in the D-League than come back to Purdue."
http://www.purdueexponent.org/sports/article_d498f51c-1de9-11e6-970d-9bd72ef2cd41.html
Hopefully that is not really the case. I can't understand actually preferring to play in the D-league over an extra season to get in the first round of the draft. Oh well, to each his (or her) own, I suppose.
Today on The Dan Dakich Show, host Dan Dakich stated that a reliable contact has told him "Swanigan would rather play in the D-League than come back to Purdue."
http://www.purdueexponent.org/sports/article_d498f51c-1de9-11e6-970d-9bd72ef2cd41.html
Hopefully that is not really the case. I can't understand actually preferring to play in the D-league over an extra season to get in the first round of the draft. Oh well, to each his (or her) own, I suppose.
I have to give him credit, he really seems to be handling this the right way. While I think he needs to come back, if goes it will be for HIS reasons and desires which I respect. He knows what his home life needs are and that all comes first.
Regardless of the outcome, Swanigan is checked out of the "Purdue Student Athlete" mold and his only goal is to prove he belongs in the league...is that good if he comes back? I don't know, but I'm afraid his personal goals will out weigh team goals and we've all seen how that ends....at this point I'm indifferent with his return...give me more Mathias, V Edwards, Haas, and Smotherman, These are the type of players I want to invest my time and energy in come bball season!
I have a feeling that was taken out of context. Biggie has referenced the d league before in a different manner.
Not reading much in to that.
Agree. We no doubt will be much better if he comes back, but at what cost if he isn't a "team" player as it were?
Plus if he does go pro, will that make us more enticing to Kostas?
Some people kill me...not talking about anyone in particular, but we want Painter to get 5 star players and yet we complain about the nature of the beast. The 5 star players are the one and domes, and they only go to college because they are told they have to. If we want Painter to continue getting 5 star players, we better get use to dealing with the unknown of who is coming back the following year and who is going into the draft.
First, I don't care if we get five star players or not so long as we win.
Second, the nature of the beast isn't typically a five star playing jumping to go play in the D League.
To me, the question of whether a player should leave isn't real complicated and really only has a few variables. Just answer these questions:
1. Are you a solid first round pick? If yes, then go. If no, see question 2.
2. If you aren't a solid first round pick, can you develop into one by returning to college? If yes, then come back. If no, see question 3.
3. If you aren't likely to ever develop into a first round pick, how much do you value the college experience and the education that you're supposedly getting? If you value them, come back. If you don't, take your chances in the draft but prepare to play overseas.
3 questions that I would apply to just about anyone facing that decision from anywhere in the country.
Here's how I see the answers for Swanigan:
1. Definite no. Not a single projection I've seen has him in first round. Most don't have him in the 2nd round either.
2. Possibly. He's got a good work ethic. He can improve his skills through work and while he can't transform into some freak athlete overnight he can improve some of the measures he showed poorly in at the NBA Draft Camp. If he does those things, he should also have all the opportunity he wants to showcase himself at Purdue next year if he were to return. While physical limitations might cause him to fall short of the lottery, I think he could work himself into being a first round player in subsequent seasons. JJ did it in 4 years. Hammons is right on the edge of being one this season. Swanigan was a more highly ranked player than either one. For those reasons, I would come back if I were him. Here is where I let you in on a secret. I am not Caleb Swanigan.
3. My sense on this from recent comments from Swanigan and comments from "sources" regarding Swanigan is that he could give two ***** about the college experience or obtaining a degree. If that is accurate, the only real reason he would want to come back is if doing so would enable him to enter the NBA in a substantially better position in the near future. If not, it seems he would rather be in an environment where he can focus solely on basketball and not have to worry about college whether that be in the D League or maybe overseas.
Whatever his decision is, I'm fine with. It's his life and he will reap the rewards or suffer the consequences of his choice just like everyone else does with the choices they make in life. We all make them but most of us don't have thousands of people with a vested personal interest in them and the ability to second-guess them for years if we get it wrong. Hope he does whatever is best for himself. I'll be a Purdue basketball fan either way.
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This whole Swanigan saga has been 'very weird from start to finish. If draft stock doesn't matter and if rumors are true that he doesn't really like it Purdue then why even come in the first place? He probably could have went to almost any foreign league straight out of high school and made it to the nba from there.
It may or may not be something specific to Purdue. It could just be that given the option he'd rather just spend all day focusing on working out and basketball rather than having to deal with college classes. If that's the case, then maybe the D League is a better option (one that wouldn't have been available straight out of high school).
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