Last summer Caleb said that his plan (or hope) was to be "one and done." Knowing that people are surprised in his desire to make that dream a reality just boggles my mind. Personally, I hope he blows up the combine and makes the first round. I would love to get a second season with him at Purdue but, with the past that he has overcome, he has earned his shot at the league and the payday imho.
Biggie and Barnes
- Thread starter paintball1979
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I think most of us are still bummed about how the season ended and want another shot with Biggie, VE, Haas all on the roster.
Right but then it comes back to the "Did he say it so NBA scout would believe they are serious" vs. what they really intend to do. Could be posturing, could be serious, we will see. He hasn't burned any bridges and has every opportunity to come back if things don't go well at the combine.
I agree with you that is a possibility. I was replying to the poster that said he would only go if he was a 1st rounder period (as if it was a fact).
Let the process play out. As others have stated, Barnes is trying to project into others' minds a positive perception about Caleb, and that is savvy and appropriate. BUT I personally have a feeling Caleb will prove to himself at the combines that he needs another year. I don't see how the combine feedback will be that Caleb is a sure-thing 1st rounder or even a sure-thing 2nd rounder in the upcoming draft. Despite Caleb's rebounding talent and NBA-ready frame that will serve him well on offense, there are some major questions IMO about Caleb's ability to play with sufficiently athletic quickness and explosiveness to be successful as an NBA 4, and I think the combine this year will likely expose those areas still requiring development.
Nobody is surprised at his desire to play in the NBA. I think there is some surprise that he got invited to the draft camp thing and probably some surprise at his apparent willingness to go even if he is not a solid first rounder. I don't think anyone should stay in college if they have guaranteed NBA money on the table. I just don't think he's a first rounder and everything I've seen up to this point seems to confirm that. Should he go pro if he's not? That's really a decision for him to make. We can all say what we would do if we were him but we're not him. If you are content with your worst-case scenario being playing ball overseas for the next ten or so years and then whenever you retire you have to find something to do without having a degree to fall back on then who is anyone to argue? College is not for everyone.
There are several secondary factors that have not been discussed. 1. Is he up-to-date on his progression toward a degree? If not, he has a hell of a summer ahead of him. As well as Basketball being played in the spring semester means he has to stay eligible after the fall semester too. I have ZERO knowledge that he is not perfectly fine, but this is more than grades, this is credit hours. 2. Does he like college? Does he love being around his teammates? Does he want to go further in the tourney next year? I have no good info on this either. It "appears" he does not love college, but that could be all wrong. 3. Does he respect Painter or the assistant coach's ability to make him an NBA player? AJ definitely did. Does Caleb? Don't know. Personally, I think it will take some serious tough love, and maybe Rosey has provided that and it is fine with him, or maybe not. If sitting during the ALR game angered him rather than showed him he needs work, then that could be a clue. 5. Does he have access to the money that it will cost to buy insurance against his getting hurt next year? If not, then that is dramatically different than if he does. .... and there are more, but you get the point.
I would argue this. I think Purdue was better with only one of Hammonds, Haas, or Biggie in the game at once last year. The problem we have may be post depth depending upon the performance of Taylor. I want more guards / small forwards on the floor.
Excellent points. It is pretty clear that he really doesn't love college and is looking to go pro as quickly as possible. No judgement from me, just an observation. Never thought about the classes/credits angle, that is really something to consider especially if his mind was "thinking" I'm going pro after my freshman year. He may not have set himself up very well for a sophomore year. I hope he comes back, but I'm much less confident of that than I was a week ago.
So you think we will be the same either way or even better without him? He's a double-double guy as a freshman with very good talent and the swagger to show up in the moment. He is a hard worker who I think could improve immensely heading into year 2. I think his staying or leaving greatly impacts this upcoming season.
Well-stated, although I think it is worth adding...he is someone that takes his schooling seriously and works hard in the classroom as well...he values education.
Sitting him angered Barnes far more than it angered Caleb...it definitely did not set well with him though, as the guy is competitive and driven, and it was absolutely not a case where he was not playing because he needed to improve...it was totally a case of Painter failing to take advantage of the literal advantage that he provided and incredible mismatch that he had.
Name another school where a guy with his talent and ability, never mind that had played all year, sat for more than half the game in a tournament game.
Credits and eligibility are not an issue at all...the kid is a good student and values education...he took classes online over the summer before school even started last fall. The kid is extremely disciplined...exceptionally hard working...and tremendously focused...the literal model of what a student-athlete should be.
DG, you seem to know an awful lot about Caleb. Even his academic standing. If that is the case, then please explain your earlier comment that Barnes was upset even before the tournament. What could he possibly have been upset about??
DG10 - when you were saying you totally agreed that he cares more about playing in the NBA than making Purdue a better team, were you meaning if he somehow does come back to Purdue that his focus will be on getting to the NBA over helping the team be better as a team?
if it's only haas next year, can he handle that many more minutes? puts an immense amount of pressure on him w/o swanigan.
we'll be forced to play small ball if haas continues to have any foul/elbow issues anyway.
we just offered another 7'2" guy - would you prefer the staff focus more on a guard heavy team?
Taylor's going be on the team as well, he just needs to work this offseason and be given the time to show that he can play extended minutes next season. Plus, if Swanigan were to hypothetically declare that he's keeping his name in the draft tomorrow, that would mean that there are 5 scholarships available, so recruiting 2016 won't stop.
I hadn't seen this posted.
http://www.news-sentinel.com/sports/iu/Caleb-Swanigan--Troy-Williams-and-the-NBA-Combine
http://www.news-sentinel.com/sports/iu/Caleb-Swanigan--Troy-Williams-and-the-NBA-Combine
I totally respect your comments here and am sure they are true, but it should be added that virtually every incoming freshman student athlete takes summer classes. Some are online. Every incoming football player has 6 credit hours under his belt before school starts in the fall. I don't know the statistics on Basketball, but am sure it is similar. They have to get a head start on their credit hours so they don't have to take heavy loads during the season and to give them a buffer for a bad grade along the way.
I don't know the exact/actual numbers either, but would think that it is similar for basketball, as those guys are there in the summer and taking classes before the fall as well, although it was different in Caleb's case in that he was with Team USA last summer. Regardless, it is common practice anymore, and it is also how guys are able to graduate in three years at IU. Personally, I thought Stephens might be closer to graduating and thus a factor in why he was more inclined to transfer as he would not have had to sit out a year, or at least an entire year.
My point in response to the post though was specific to Caleb and simply that grades/eligibility were not an issue or factor...a solid student and someone that definitely values his education.
I see now this was discussed more in another thread. At any rate, there will be quite a bit of expectation/reliance on unknowns of Taylor and especially c.Edwards next year.
I did not say that. I said I thought Purdue played better with only one Big in at a time. We struggled to defend the four and five spot if they had any athleticism at all. Biggie in particular. I don't think we are better without him but also don't think we fall off the cliff as some believe we would. We would play a very different style.
Completely agree. We aren't going to be better with or without him.... we'll just simply be "different".
What I find funny is that I'm sure Painter will get "blamed" somehow if Biggie leaves yet if he stays he will get "blamed" for that as well. There are some on here where he simply cannot do anything right and just want him gone no matter what. Which just boggles my mind because there is no way you can have an objective outlook on things with that sort of mentality.
It's college BB and we are starting to see just what happens when you sign the quality of players that we need to progress. All have dreams of playing someday for $$$. When the chance comes they are going to take it. None of our recruits will be here forever. It's a 4-5 year max deal so turnover is constant and is one of the things that would suck most about being a college coach. I'm surprised more of them don't exhibit signs of chronic ulcers and cardiac issues. We knew Biggie was a temp player. I'd like to see him give it another year because I think he'd benefit but if not it's just next man up and you move on wishing him well in his future endeavors.
I know.... I know. I try to be hopeful it will happen but you are right, I should know better
I get your point, but I see it differently.
No reason to "blame" Painter either way...that said, it is Painter's job to win, and hopefully, win big (or at least when it matters most). He is charged with putting together a team that can/will do that, and then developing it accordingly so that it has the best chance to do so. He did not succeed when he had Biggie last year, and chances are, he won't succeed in doing so next year if Biggie leaves...so while "blame" might not be accurate...holding him accountable for that is certainly fair I think. PG was a glaring issue for Purdue last year...it was his job to address and alleviate that...he did not...that is fair to hold him accountable for, whether that constitutes "blaming" him or not.
I disagree that Purdue is not better with him than they are without him...I am hard pressed to believe that any team that loses a guy with his talent and skill set, especially on a team where said talent and skill set is among the best (if not the best), is better without said guy. To me at least, they won't just be different...they will not be as good either.
fall off the cliff? no.
but expectations for many would be quite different when losing your best recruit before he even played year 2.
I agree the best lineup last season often did not include Biggie.. primarily because we had a 7 footer on the court at all times and a non-shooter 2 guard logging 30 minutes a game.. VE's skill set was more complementary.. and due to Biggie's freshman mistakes and turnover issues, which got better as the season progressed.
Next year, Swanigan's importance increases. I believe he will become more of an asset at the 4 with bona fide shooters and/or slashers at all 3 guard positions. Defensively, to your point, it may still be a liability with Haas and he on the floor together. However, by necessity a big part of his role is he will be needed to log 15-20 minutes at the 5. I don't care how good Taylor is, he doesn't have the body to defend the 5 like Biggie does.
So, in terms of depth it is sort of a fall off a cliff. Problem is, we all know Biggie doesn't want to play the 5 and it won't be in his "best interests" to do so if he returns.
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NO way Biggie isn't close to 15 and 12 if he comes back...and that's if he comes back not really that improved.
He was 9 and 9 sharing the floor with 2 pretty good big guys and 2 guys who ate up a lot of post touches and RBs themselves. He would most likely be our backup 5 AND starting 4 and get 35+ minutes and have a better chance at showing his game here in the US playing college basketball at a high level then playing overseas or in the NBDL.
I think its a no brainer for him to come back. It's just a better stage....and your adopted dad is a millionaire. He's getting bad advice if he thinks the time is now to jump to the NBA.
And think, what if he blows up and is 20 and 12 consistently as a 19-20 year old (the age most 1 and dones get drafted anyhow). No way he isn't a lottery pick, even if he's a 4-5 tweener in the NBA.
He was 9 and 9 sharing the floor with 2 pretty good big guys and 2 guys who ate up a lot of post touches and RBs themselves. He would most likely be our backup 5 AND starting 4 and get 35+ minutes and have a better chance at showing his game here in the US playing college basketball at a high level then playing overseas or in the NBDL.
I think its a no brainer for him to come back. It's just a better stage....and your adopted dad is a millionaire. He's getting bad advice if he thinks the time is now to jump to the NBA.
And think, what if he blows up and is 20 and 12 consistently as a 19-20 year old (the age most 1 and dones get drafted anyhow). No way he isn't a lottery pick, even if he's a 4-5 tweener in the NBA.
I didn't see anyone blame Painter for having Biggie as a freshman. I said that was his biggest win in recruiting (there have been better freshman like Moore, but this was over MSU, Painter's first 5 star, etc.). My gripe with Painter losing guys is that he has never once in 11 years lost a guy early to the NBA. Everyone has transferred, quit, or was moved to the football team. If he loses Biggie, I wouldn't blame it on Painter either, especially if he is going to the NBA. Totally the kids decision.
All of that said, losing Biggie was a possibility all along, so Painter had to be prepared for it. If not and we make it 5 years in a row next year without a NCAA win, I think you will see more and more people (and hopefully those in power) realize it's time to move on.
I know I am being really nit picky here but Painter did address the point, just not successfully. The year before he succeeded. Let's hope the third try works and it's the kid so we have a good one for a few years!
Absolutely agree. I just happen to think the resultant change in approach could do us some good and therefore lessen the blow. A team is the sum of its parts thus incremental improvement in the many can out way the loss of the few, or the one. How many sci-fi nerds will pick up on that veiled reference?
I love this post. Mainly because I agree with all of it which to me means it is highly intelligent and quite well written. For life without biggie to be as good or better requires a lot of good things to happen, but it is possible.
Why thank you! I find myself nodding in agreement with many of your posts as well.
I actually think it will be in Biggie's interest to spend half his time at the five. Rosie says that he's a better fit for the NBA than college, because spacing will be better. I think that he'll find that playing the five with a shooter at the four that spacing is better.
He also needs to show that he can succeed in the post against size. Mismatches are great, but posting up a 6'7" 200 pound forward doesn't demonstrate that he can post up in the NBA. He also may find that when he is matched up against size, it is easier to move outside and demonstrate his perimeter skills.
I'm very glad we got Biggie. I hope he stays another year. I think it's the right move for him and for the team.
This is a good problem to have. It's a problem Purdue hasn't had to worry about in a while. Other elite schools go through this waiting game every year. I would love for Purdue to have to endure it every year. You either recruit kids that aren't elite and plan on them being here for four years, or you recruit kids with NBA aspirations that might want to leave early at some point. Yes, that's a simplification, but I think the point is clear.
You can't recruit future NBA players who aren't interested in the NBA. This is a new sort of suspense, but I'm just fine with it.
This is a good problem to have. It's a problem Purdue hasn't had to worry about in a while. Other elite schools go through this waiting game every year. I would love for Purdue to have to endure it every year. You either recruit kids that aren't elite and plan on them being here for four years, or you recruit kids with NBA aspirations that might want to leave early at some point. Yes, that's a simplification, but I think the point is clear.
You can't recruit future NBA players who aren't interested in the NBA. This is a new sort of suspense, but I'm just fine with it.
I agree with your premise. I think the difference is we don't have 3 more top 100 guys coming in next year like most of the programs that routinely lose guys early. For those programs there may still be some stress each year, but it is mitigated greatly by the fact they have replacements already coming.
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