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Bernie Sanders

I appreciate your second paragraph. But I still can't find or don't see where it's being used as propaganda other than in political rhetoric by the party (and the individual politician) that made a campaign promise (which has already failed, and correctly so) seven years ago.

One example from 2013:
http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...elps-al-qaeda-recruit-more-terrorists/274956/

Key line from GEN Petraeus from way back not long after it was opened:

"I've been on the record on that for well over a year as well, saying that it [Guantanamo] should be closed. . . . And I think that whenever we have, perhaps, taken expedient measures, they have turned around and bitten us in the backside. . . . Abu Ghraib and other situations like that are nonbiodegradables. They don't go away. The enemy continues to beat you with them like a stick."
 
So I counted three specific instances of mentions of Gitmo by AQ and the Taliban prior to 2013. That's fair. Question is: how does moving those prisoners anywhere else solve the problem? They're still being held without being charged, and if anything it makes them more accessible. How does that solve the problem? I'd say it doesn't solve the propaganda problem, and even if it makes us an eensy-weensy bit less safe, why take that risk?

I saw someplace that one of the previously released detainees was again arrested on suspected terror plot charges... seems to make it more difficult politically to justify releasing these guys.

This after two other detainees were arrested last July in Belgium on terror charges.

http://www.stripes.com/news/europe/...spain-morocco-for-islamic-state-ties-1.395610
 
So I counted three specific instances of mentions of Gitmo by AQ and the Taliban prior to 2013. That's fair. Question is: how does moving those prisoners anywhere else solve the problem? They're still being held without being charged, and if anything it makes them more accessible. How does that solve the problem? I'd say it doesn't solve the propaganda problem, and even if it makes us an eensy-weensy bit less safe, why take that risk?

I saw someplace that one of the previously released detainees was again arrested on suspected terror plot charges... seems to make it more difficult politically to justify releasing these guys.

This after two other detainees were arrested last July in Belgium on terror charges.

http://www.stripes.com/news/europe/...spain-morocco-for-islamic-state-ties-1.395610
It doesn't make us even that much less safe IMO, and as we've established, I believe you minimize the propaganda effect which some pretty tied in, important and experienced folks in and out of the military also disagree with you on in that article.
 
I watched the town hall and the Democratic debate last night and it got me thinking... of the two candidates, clearly I would be more closely aligned ideologically with Hillary than Bernie on most issues, the two notable exceptions being campaign finance reform and gun control. Though I'm more left-leaning or at least centrist than most right wingers on gun control in that I think more needs to be done, I am not convinced that a whole slew of bans and tougher/more laws are always the answer, instead better/more thorough enforcement of current laws would probably work. In fact I think Bernie's summary of gun control describes me perfectly: "I will take the following concrete steps to reduce gun violence: strengthen and better enforce the instant background check system; close the gun-show loophole; make 'straw man' purchases a federal crime; ban semi-automatic assault weapons which are designed strictly for killing human beings; and work to fix our broken mental health system."

There was an interesting exchange which highlighted why Bernie might not be the nightmare some folks of my ilk think. When the moderator mentioned that the first priority you tackle is usually the one thing you really get done in a four-year presidency (or eight years for Obama and PPACA, largely due to Congress, which I'm fine with... balance of power works), he asked what it would be for each candidate.

Hillary mentioned like nine things, and never really answered the question. In fact, I'd say she made pains to dodge it entirely. But, if I had to nail down the thing she seemed most concerned or passionate about, I'd say it was green energy and making the US the leader in developing green energy into the future. Either that or path to citizenship and immigration reform. But again, too hard to nail down one thing.

Bernie, on the other hand, said he would fix the political system and reform campaign financing in an effort to get politicians out of the pockets of the "billionaire class".

I admit, I'm feeling the Bern on that one. If he were elected, I'd be much happier pushing that agenda than, really, anything Hillary mentioned. Hillary is becoming more demagogic as Bernie gains on her, and I think Bernie says what he thinks.

The problem with the quote about 'banning semi-automatic assault weapons which are designed strictly for killing human beings' is it is a bogus argument. The main difference between a hunting rifle or a rifle a rancher uses and an assault rifle, is mainly cosmetic and wording. Really hard to outlaw an "assault weapon" without getting rid of most hunting rifles/shotguns/pistols. Same performance.

http://www.assaultweapon.info/

As for campaign reform financing just do not see Dems or Reps getting behind it. One, they(both parties) like their money. Two, it is largely a myth that Reps have get more donations from bigger donors. Look what happened when Obama released his numbers-he raised most money from Wall Streeters ever. Was not the small donations he led everyone to believe during his campaign. Now I think Bernie is a smaller donation guy but one person cannot change it. And any Executive Order he issues if he wins is likley Unconstitutional due to CU.

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php
 
So what I read there is, I don't actually care if they do use it for propaganda.
I don't think we should be making policy decisions based on terrorist propaganda because their ideology is 100% opposite from ours. If we can justify it ourselves, we shouldn't be worried about what ISIS/AQ think; they're hardly in a position to judge anyone.
 
I'm not defending Clinton, but if flip-flopping on major issues is a deal-breaker for you, then I can't imagine how Trump is your candidate.

IMO, Clinton is a pathological liar & Trump is a blowhard with no filter. As someone else said, I find Sanders the most likable of the field. As much as I think he is right on some issues, socialism is never the long term solution for much of anything. Nice ideas that are never practical.
 
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So what I read there is, I don't actually care if they do use it for propaganda.

I don't think we should be making policy decisions based on terrorist propaganda because their ideology is 100% opposite from ours. If we can justify it ourselves, we shouldn't be worried about what ISIS/AQ think; they're hardly in a position to judge anyone.

I've never quite got my head around the concern for terrorists opinions. I'm not saying we shouldn't be concerned.... I just haven't seen a strong case for it. Is there really anything we can do, short of converting to Islam, that will stop the anti-west recruitment and teachings going on in the madrassas?
 
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I've never quite got my head around the concern for terrorists opinions. I'm not saying we shouldn't be concerned.... I just haven't seen a strong case for it. Is there really anything we can do, short of converting to Islam, that will stop the anti-west recruitment and teachings going on in the madrassas?
Nope. And not only that, implement Sharia and worship the way they see fit. Those organizations don't even tolerate Muslims of other sects or those whom they don't view as devout enough. But by all means we should dictate policy based on their propaganda.
 
I've never quite got my head around the concern for terrorists opinions. I'm not saying we shouldn't be concerned.... I just haven't seen a strong case for it. Is there really anything we can do, short of converting to Islam, that will stop the anti-west recruitment and teachings going on in the madrassas?
I would argue that it's not a concern for terrorists' opinions as much as it is a concern for the opinion of young, relatively moderate Muslims who may be the targets of propagandist material.

If people like Trump and other influential leaders continue to provide anti-Islam material, it's those moderates who begin to harden their views on Western culture when faced with the idea of travel bans based solely on religion.
 
I would argue that it's not a concern for terrorists' opinions as much as it is a concern for the opinion of young, relatively moderate Muslims who may be the targets of propagandist material.

If people like Trump and other influential leaders continue to provide anti-Islam material, it's those moderates who begin to harden their views on Western culture when faced with the idea of travel bans based solely on religion.

Most of the stink on this is generated from a political nature. From everything I've ever read about Islam and youth, they start hating the West long before they ever know a thing about Donald Trump. I've even done some limited reading of the Koran. Most Westerners just don't have a clue about the lack of tolerance that the religion teaches.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-wahhabism-saudi-arabia_b_5717157.html
 
Most of the stink on this is generated from a political nature. From everything I've ever read about Islam and youth, they start hating the West long before they ever know a thing about Donald Trump. I've even done some limited reading of the Koran. Most Westerners just don't have a clue about the lack of tolerance that the religion teaches.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-wahhabism-saudi-arabia_b_5717157.html
Not that I'm an expert by any means, but my undergraduate minor was in Religious Studies with a focus on Islam.

I'd agree that most people are ignorant about the religion, but would counter that a lot of people don't recognize the many similarities that each of the three Abrahamic faiths share. People like to talk about intolerance in Islam but like to gloss over the Old Testament.

But circling back to my original point, we shouldn't be doing their work for them. No reason to broadcast fringe extremist views that represent the worst of a vocal minority in this country.
 
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I've never quite got my head around the concern for terrorists opinions. I'm not saying we shouldn't be concerned.... I just haven't seen a strong case for it. Is there really anything we can do, short of converting to Islam, that will stop the anti-west recruitment and teachings going on in the madrassas?

Yes...folks like ISIS don't just convert the hardcore into directly supporting them, they get more indirect monetary and other support from the less hardcore. If you lose the moral high ground, you lose the ability to persuade the persuadable...unless you think we have no ability whatsoever by example or otherwise to persuade ANYONE in the middle east...but I think that's not remotely true.
 
I would argue that it's not a concern for terrorists' opinions as much as it is a concern for the opinion of young, relatively moderate Muslims who may be the targets of propagandist material.

If people like Trump and other influential leaders continue to provide anti-Islam material, it's those moderates who begin to harden their views on Western culture when faced with the idea of travel bans based solely on religion.

bingo.
 
I don't think we should be making policy decisions based on terrorist propaganda because their ideology is 100% opposite from ours. If we can justify it ourselves, we shouldn't be worried about what ISIS/AQ think; they're hardly in a position to judge anyone.

The point is that the audience for that propaganda is also the human "fuel" for the terrorists. One would think you would care about reducing that potential fuel supply.
 
a lot of people don't recognize the many similarities that each of the three Abrahamic faiths share.

I wouldn't just call it similarities. More specifically, the core common persons and common histories.

People like to talk about intolerance in Islam but like to gloss over the Old Testament.

The major difference is that the Koran is pretty much the inverse of the Bible. Not an expert here either. IIRC, as Mohammad got older, he became much more intolerant and dare I say "extreme." He even instructed believers that his later teachings effectively superseded his earlier teachings. Whereas, the Bible was the complete opposite. The New Testament gospels, with a central theme of forgiveness, superseding the Old Testament.

But circling back to my original point, we shouldn't be doing their work for them. No reason to broadcast fringe extremist views that represent the worst of a vocal minority in this country.

I don't really disagree in principal with this. But I think it naive to believe that, even if we could snap our fingers and eliminate the offensive rhetoric, that the anti-West teachings would disappear. Radical Islam (those that actively take part in jihad or support it) is a minority in the Islamic community. But make no mistake, it isn't a small number. I've read statistics that place the total as high as 20%+ range, but I think more conservative estimates, that I've read, would be 10-15%. Taking 1.6 billion Islamic folks....that's a fairly large number (160-240 million) that support jihad.
 
Yes...folks like ISIS don't just convert the hardcore into directly supporting them, they get more indirect monetary and other support from the less hardcore. If you lose the moral high ground, you lose the ability to persuade the persuadable...unless you think we have no ability whatsoever by example or otherwise to persuade ANYONE in the middle east...but I think that's not remotely true.

Ahhh, this is a solid discussion. IMO, the persuadable already know that Trump is a moron. Persuadable moderate Islamic people can think for themselves. I'm a persuadable guy, but I'm confident that Obama isn't Hitler, regardless of how much I don't like the guy... even for bullheaded Knuckleheads, like myself, eventually allow common sense to kick in. The problem is, radical Islam (those that are actively participating in jihad and those that support it) is not a small isolated community. It is a fairly substantial number of individuals. They aren't going to stop until certain conditions are met and it doesn't matter what we do, short of converting to Islam and, as Gr8 said, accepting Shariah Law. I'm pretty sure that moderate Islam followers understand that radicalized Islam is no better than Donald Trump.
 
Ahhh, this is a solid discussion. IMO, the persuadable already know that Trump is a moron. Persuadable moderate Islamic people can think for themselves. I'm a persuadable guy, but I'm confident that Obama isn't Hitler, regardless of how much I don't like the guy... even for bullheaded Knuckleheads, like myself, eventually allow common sense to kick in. The problem is, radical Islam (those that are actively participating in jihad and those that support it) is not a small isolated community. It is a fairly substantial number of individuals. They aren't going to stop until certain conditions are met and it doesn't matter what we do, short of converting to Islam and, as Gr8 said, accepting Shariah Law. I'm pretty sure that moderate Islam followers understand that radicalized Islam is no better than Donald Trump.
See, I would disagree with this. If I was living in another country -- or even if I was a young Muslim-American -- and saw one of this country's political frontrunners for President talking about things like travel bans and that immigrants are rapists and murders, it would sharply influence my view of this country.
 
See, I would disagree with this. If I was living in another country -- or even if I was a young Muslim-American -- and saw one of this country's political frontrunners for President talking about things like travel bans and that immigrants are rapists and murders, it would sharply influence my view of this country.
It would also give credence or at least a listen to more radical folks who say see, these folks are out to get us.
 
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See, I would disagree with this. If I was living in another country -- or even if I was a young Muslim-American -- and saw one of this country's political frontrunners for President talking about things like travel bans and that immigrants are rapists and murders, it would sharply influence my view of this country.

Sure, if that was your only frame of reference. I could understand that, but young Muslim Americans should have a broader frame of reference than Donald Trump.

Look, Trump, Clinton and Cruz are pretty much all detestable in my book. That said, Trump isn't to blame for radicalized Islam. If it isn't Trump, it's our support of Israel, or George Bush invading Iraq, or our refusal to acknowledge Palestine, or the US putting terrorists in prisons at Guantanamo Bay, or our selling weapons to dictatorships. They are constantly going to find something and blow it out of proportion, as a means to an end.
 
It would also give credence or at least a listen to more radical folks who say see, these folks are out to get us.

Okay, wave a magic wand and Donald Trump disappears. Are you trying to tell me that tomorrow everyone wakes up happy and we don't have to worry about offending terrorists?
 
Okay, wave a magic wand and Donald Trump disappears. Are you trying to tell me that tomorrow everyone wakes up happy and we don't have to worry about offending terrorists?
Can't speak for others, but, no, no one wakes up happy tomorrow with no Trump, and there in lies the problem, IMHO. Rhetoric lacks logic and can evolve in troubling directions, but the anger the rhetoric is focused on is real and won't go away quietly even if Trump does.
 
Okay, wave a magic wand and Donald Trump disappears. Are you trying to tell me that tomorrow everyone wakes up happy and we don't have to worry about offending terrorists?
Was that a serious question? So unless something we do can work 100% we shouldn't do it?
 
Ahhh, this is a solid discussion. IMO, the persuadable already know that Trump is a moron. Persuadable moderate Islamic people can think for themselves. I'm a persuadable guy, but I'm confident that Obama isn't Hitler, regardless of how much I don't like the guy... even for bullheaded Knuckleheads, like myself, eventually allow common sense to kick in. The problem is, radical Islam (those that are actively participating in jihad and those that support it) is not a small isolated community. It is a fairly substantial number of individuals. They aren't going to stop until certain conditions are met and it doesn't matter what we do, short of converting to Islam and, as Gr8 said, accepting Shariah Law. I'm pretty sure that moderate Islam followers understand that radicalized Islam is no better than Donald Trump.
I am pretty sure Donald Trump led America is better than an Islamic America or one under Sharia law.
 
Was that a serious question? So unless something we do can work 100% we shouldn't do it?

Just pointing out the fallacy of being concerned with not offending people who are going to be offended by the US, regardless of what the US does...short of completely submitting to their authority. I'm not sure what you are suggesting we do partially with Donald Trump. I think we're getting the full Donald, whether we like it, or not.

The problem with extreme Islam is there is no middle ground and no compromise. Show me an example of radicalized Islam being offered an olive branch that has produced positive results or moved them to a position of moderation. Sometimes, evil is as evil does.
 
Can't speak for others, but, no, no one wakes up happy tomorrow with no Trump, and there in lies the problem, IMHO. Rhetoric lacks logic and can evolve in troubling directions, but the anger the rhetoric is focused on is real and won't go away quietly even if Trump does.

I think you've hit on a point. I think Trump offered a few solutions to hot point problems that a significant portion of America had grown angry about (immigration, political correctness ) and Washington had refused to address. My suspicion is that political pundits are missing where strong Trump support is based and it is in a voting block that traditionally doesn't vote Republican. IMO, it's the Bubba/labor vote (my guess is Trump could wade into an ultimate fighting event and people would go nuts for him). He's gotten far further than I ever thought he would. At one time, I believed his support to be very narrow. Much narrower than he presently polls. I've been wondering if pollsters are seeing this. Most all of my conservative friends want nothing to do with Trump, so his support has to be coming from somewhere.
 
Just pointing out the fallacy of being concerned with not offending people who are going to be offended by the US, regardless of what the US does...short of completely submitting to their authority. I'm not sure what you are suggesting we do partially with Donald Trump. I think we're getting the full Donald, whether we like it, or not.

The problem with extreme Islam is there is no middle ground and no compromise. Show me an example of radicalized Islam being offered an olive branch that has produced positive results or moved them to a position of moderation. Sometimes, evil is as evil does.

You pretty clearly miss the point. You think, apparently, that the only people ISIS can appeal to or win over are people who are already extremists and thus cannot be persuadable any other way...thus we can do whatever we want and it doesn't matter. You would be quite wrong, but that's not just my opinion, it's GEN Petraeus' opinion, and the opinion of former high-ranking military and intelligence folks, repeatedly stated, as I've linked. You don't have to agree with them, but I'd think given what they know, it would at least give you pause.
 
...thus we can do whatever we want and it doesn't matter.

Typical Qaz, all or nothing approach. I found your link. You must be talking about GITMO. I was referencing Trump, it's a bit of a different situation. GITMO is certainly a problem.

You would be quite wrong, but that's not just my opinion, it's GEN Petraeus' opinion, and the opinion of former high-ranking military and intelligence folks, repeatedly stated, as I've linked.

So, what's your solution? You must have one. What do we do with the GITMO prisoners? Some of these guys are bad people and if they make it back in society, innocent people are going to die. Move them to the US? Set them free?
 
Typical Qaz, all or nothing approach. I found your link. You must be talking about GITMO. I was referencing Trump, it's a bit of a different situation. GITMO is certainly a problem.



So, what's your solution? You must have one. What do we do with the GITMO prisoners? Some of these guys are bad people and if they make it back in society, innocent people are going to die. Move them to the US? Set them free?

I have no idea why you think the main thrust or even majority of this part of the thread is about Trump vice GITMO which is what started all of this and what I've been referencing, and directly what Gr8 and I were going back and forth on.

Closing GITMO and "what do we do with these people" are related but different issues.

And what do we do with these people? We do the morally, ethically, and legally correct thing with them. That's what Americans do, yes? We don't act out of fear. We don't elevate security above doing what is right. We don't compromise our principles because we are afraid one of them might one day do something if it turns out we have to let them go. We try them if we can, but the solution is not to detain for life people we don't even feel we have enough evidence against which to even stand up in the military tribunal process, much less an actual trial.

Unless give me liberty or death is now give me security, period.
 
I have no idea why you think the main thrust or even majority of this part of the thread is about Trump vice GITMO which is what started all of this and what I've been referencing, and directly what Gr8 and I were going back and forth on.

My mistake. That said, if you go back and remove the thread police attitude. You might see where there was some intermingling of topics. I certainly contributed to it and I'll readily admit that I didn't read everything within a 2+ page post. If that's not acceptable, I'll leave you alone. It's Friday and I'm planning on enjoying the day.

And what do we do with these people? We do the morally, ethically, and legally correct thing with them. That's what Americans do, yes? We don't act out of fear. We don't elevate security above doing what is right. We don't compromise our principles because we are afraid one of them might one day do something if it turns out we have to let them go. We try them if we can, but the solution is not to detain for life people we don't even feel we have enough evidence against which to even stand up in the military tribunal process, much less an actual trial.

I agree with you about the moral, ethical and legal aspect of this. As I don't know, how many of the people in GITMO wouldn't be convicted in front of a military tribunal. I would assume that some would stand reasonable grounds for being prosecuted. N'est pas?

That said, let's say they release everyone except a few. Those few are still going to be propaganda material for recruitment purposes, no matter where they are held. Which gets back to the original point. Concern about what unreasonable people think.
 
The point is that the audience for that propaganda is also the human "fuel" for the terrorists. One would think you would care about reducing that potential fuel supply.
I don't believe that Guantanamo Bay is at the fore front of the young audience's mind. Not one bit. But I understand why most Americans would believe that since we take this US-centric view of the world. I think most recruits are swayed by being disaffected, marginalized by a government they view as being propped up by the West or others who don't share Islamic values. They make promises of a utopian Caliphate (this is well-known in their recruiting as well) where Sharia is the answer and Allah provides for True Believers. I think the existence of a prison for terrorists is as much a recruiting tool for young Jihadists as a meeting with an academic advisor is at the University of Alabama for a football recruit.
 
I don't believe that Guantanamo Bay is at the fore front of the young audience's mind. Not one bit. But I understand why most Americans would believe that since we take this US-centric view of the world. I think most recruits are swayed by being disaffected, marginalized by a government they view as being propped up by the West or others who don't share Islamic values. They make promises of a utopian Caliphate (this is well-known in their recruiting as well) where Sharia is the answer and Allah provides for True Believers. I think the existence of a prison for terrorists is as much a recruiting tool for young Jihadists as a meeting with an academic advisor is at the University of Alabama for a football recruit.

So even though I show you documentation...why do you think they waste the time using it as propaganda for their own people? Do you think they think, yeah this will have no effect on our people, but what the heck, we will do it anyways?

Why do you think someone like Petraeus said what he said, which seems clearly to indicate that he thinks what you think is dead wrong?
 
So even though I show you documentation...why do you think they waste the time using it as propaganda for their own people? Do you think they think, yeah this will have no effect on our people, but what the heck, we will do it anyways?

Why do you think someone like Petraeus said what he said, which seems clearly to indicate that he thinks what you think is dead wrong?
I think the effect that single piece of propaganda is minimal as compared to their overarching method. In my opinion, cost/benefit of maintaining Gitmo open vs. moving prisoners to the mainland and/or releasing them favors keeping Gitmo open. So yes, I disagree with General Petraeus.
 
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I think I'd add that he has some ideas that I like - and he has a lot of really good "sound bite" plans - like free college, health care for all, anti-Wall Street, etc. that sound great, especially to a more liberal Democrat - but to me, a lot of it is just totally unrealistic.

I find it remarkable how our history has been lost. Sanders has so much in common with Franklin Roosevelt from a policy perspective it's remarkable. And yet, only what, 60 years after Roosevelt, the post 1996 telecom merger act media has us convinced that he is Karl Marx, transported here from hundreds of years ago.

I'd like to address a lot of things here:

1. Where is the money going to come from??

a) His healthcare plan - the conservative economist who said it would cost 15 trillion over the course of his presidency sort of slipped in that over the same time period, it will cost us 25 trillion going the current private route.

So, before we even talk about any cost of anything he wants, just go ahead and add roughly 45% of our annual revenue back into the pockets of all of us. Yes, I know, the poor sorority girl who got a job as a project manager at Advocate and worked her way up to VP of something will have to find another job. I'm crushed.

b) free college - I've heard Bernie on Thom Hartmann talking about free college and the best I can gather is that he's talking about governor's State and places like that being free to everyone… places you can go to for a few grand. I'm sure in his wildest dreams, Purdue would be free if you got a 3.5 GPA, etc. Now, I know that terrifies the well to do, because they aren't interested in systems that work better. They're interested in systems that work worse overall, but systems in which THEY'RE RICH or where they do better. They don't want actual achievers from the lower middle class to compete with their kids. That's not fair. Again, cry me a river. So yes, this is a cost, but not nearly as bad as people are making it out to be.

c) Defense - when the cold war ended, this really should have been cut by 1/2 or more. Instead it's doubled and tripled. How much college can you pay for when you cut defense back to $300 billion and make the world pitch in to help with our problems.

d) Higher taxes

Did you know the wealthy used to want high taxes? The logic in the 70s was, "if they don't have money to spend, how will they buy our products?" You don't get to come back to me 40 years later and say, "well, we figured out how to sell our products in Ho Chi Minh City and Seoul, so that's not a good idea anymore."

Also, most people who think higher taxes, like the 90% progressive taxation from Roosevelt to Reagan (I had a conservative argue with me and say that rich people then only actually paid 40 with all their deductions.. I'd be ELATED with 40 now, believe me, actually paying 90 is too high) are bad, are just unfamiliar with Pareto economics. By the way, when I told that guy I'd be elated, I never heard from him again.

Pareto theorized that more people who engage in transactions meant more activity and more movement of money, which creates wealth all on its own. You see evidence of this for example on Wall Street, where bad things happen on CNBC when money is sitting still.

But, here's the thing… today's conservatives don't want an overall better economy with greater transactional wealth… they want an economy that doesn't work for most people, but one in which THEY'RE RICH, or at least they can fantasize that they're going to be.

The thing about radical concepts like higher taxes is, it's not this new thing that's never been tried… it's been tried during the most prosperous time in our history, or any nations history for that matter. I had a conservative buddy tell me, "yeah, that's cause we had a war! That created that development." When I asked him what we've been in for the last 15 years, curiously, he changed the subject.

I don't think Bernie has ever mentioned creating an America where things will just happen for you if you don't work. He's trying to create an America where more than 1 in 7 families has the old American dream of the last generation (a study showed that is sadly the case now.. 1 in SEVEN).. because plenty of people in this country do want to work, do work, and don't prosper.

My girlfriend is the worst nightmare of economically conservative Americans. She works produce at a grocery store where she makes $17/hour. She works so hard breaking pallets that most guys that work there can't keep up. And if she wasn't living with me and my much higher pay, she wouldn't be making it with my her (and now ours after so many years) sons (that she had while married 14 and 15 years ago). I know because before we moved in together, despite her never asking, I had to bring her groceries many times to stop her from trying to live on laughable ingredients.

In the meantime, before Reagan's policies had really taken hold, the freaking janitor at my elementary school had a house, two cars, his wife didn't work, a retirement, a savings and two vacations a year.

A few other things here…

2. Why do you guys think you perceive Bernie as this wild card or exotic animal?

Well, for one, most "liberal" politicians have turned into the kind of people who sell most of the country out just slightly less than conservatives. I expect a conservative to sell me out.. he's conservative. He is supposed to fight for the interests of those who pay him legal bribes (that's a much bigger problem than anything we're discussing here). What I don't expect is for Bill Clinton to sign NAFTA. So, when the behavior of so many democrats becomes "signing NAFTA" like behavior, when someone comes around and says "you're being sold out" .. the media can point to the sell outs in nice suits with nice smiles and say "look at that one lone wild animal over there."

When, in reality, the coverage of Franklin Roosevelt (if he ran as the President he was, not as the candidate; he was a political insider as a candidate).

This by the way explains the appeal of Donald Drumpf. Many people don't know why Drumpf is so appealing to Republicans, but it's because many well meaning Republican people don't realize that there's a reason why Bernie crushes the conservative vote in Vermont. It's because it's not a D and R world anymore. It's a world of political insiders and political outsiders. It's easy to cast Bernie as something close to Jack Nicholson in Batman because there are so few outsiders who can function at all in Washington.

Many conservatives know that they're being sold out too. They have the wrong savior, for all of the reasons that John Oliver gave in his brilliant show on Sunday, but their general idea is coming from their subconscious aware that Obama, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, etc. are all on the same team.. and in their deep mind, they know that it's not a team where they get a palatial estate; more like a trailer.

1996 Telecom Merger Act

When I grew up I delivered newspapers for the Star in Chicago Heights. I wouldn't have that job today.. no, not because some desperate adult with a car would be doing it for peanuts. That's also true. But because after this piece of sell out legislation.. legislation that CNN was unwilling to air commercials against for any price.. has changed the media from a localized media to a media where you get your news from like 5 ultimate sources, owned by the same people who own all of the dog food boxes, I mean fast food restaurants that have popped up near your house.

Today, the Daily Southtown, which is owned by the Tribune gives the people in Chicago Heights and the rest of the south burbs their news.

Ultimately, those people have two aims when it comes to Sanders. They ignore him because

a) What he advocates is bad for major stockholders and executives at the big companies who share their corporate interests and agenda. What Sanders would mean is less prosperity for these royalists and an actual fighting chance for those who are in the 20.1-80% income range to actually have some upward mobility.

They don't want that. They want .. and burn this into your mind.. an overall society that is less effective, but one in which they're the king. This is, by the way, what guides free traitors.

But, it could also mean the thing they fear more than anything..

b) Actual enforcement of anti-trust law, which would lead to big media being broken up and coverage going back to being localized and ultimately, coverage that gives information that the average person needs.

I'd like to take this break to say that if you profit immensely from the current structure, I am more than in favor of you wanting what's good for you. What I'm not in favor of is the corporate media giving us news that is designed to make the other 80% of us think it's what's good for us too. If you're part of the working poor, and I've been there, you should get to want what's good for you. And you should have credible information with which to decide…

You should not get CNN acting like Bernie doesn't exist to help out political insider Corporate Shillary Clinton.

3. "Bernie doesn't do good with black people."

Well, for one, he does do good with those under 40. He won that group of black people in SC. Ironically, those under 40 are much more likely to get their news via seeking it out on social media than to get it from TV.

But there's something else with Clinton. She's an insider, so you know she's going to go into churches and promise all kinds of things to pimpy pastors, white and black. If I were black and I could see the pictures of Bernie marching with King while Hillary campaigned for Goldwater, I'd be much more likely to want Bernie and ignore the Southside Circuit.

4. Bernie "just has one issue."

That's what's been so terrible about being a liberal. It's not okay to fight for economic justice. You can, in the D party, fight for it for the ultra poor or for black people, and I love standing with those groups.. but as a lower middle class and middle class white man, it's not okay within the D insider groups to want better conditions for myself.

What these people don't realize is that that WAS our issue. Without liberal people prospering for decades due to Roosevelt, there is no movement for black people, hispanics, gays or anyone else.

If you're in the top 20%, your interests are best served by keeping everyone down. If you're in the bottom 80%, that IS the issue in this country.. the issue through which we can better fight for all other issues.

I want to stand with gays in their fight for equality, with pro choice, with black people and hispanics, but they have to stand with me too… on an issue that ironically is good for them.. wealth equality.

By the way; I don't think Bernie's most effective accomplishment would be winning the Presidency… it would be bringing up, certifying and helping to seek funding ...a whole new wave of national, state and local progressive candidates.
 
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