Are we too close to the situation to see what is going on?

[Mandeville LA]

Are we too close to the situation to see what is going on? Over the last few weeks there have been some pretty spirted conversations about how good Purdue is, how good they should be, and how we are not very good at all, not elite. I too get caught up in it all from time-to-time as well.

I strongly believe Purdue Men’s basketball is getting better and cannot think of a time when we have been in a better situation. Yes there may have been some stronger teams, but this team with the new additions looks very strong to me. The more I hear about some of the new guys the more I start thinking this team has a chance to be elite. Are we going to win the national title? Only time will tell.

Painter has a proven track record of finding really good players that fly a little under the radar. He is now in a position that he does not need large recruiting class full of top notch talent just to survive. If he can keep this train rolling at the current pace he may only need two or three good recruits a year. At some point we are going to be young again and that’s hard to overcome, but I see are last couple of recruiting class as being stronger than years before, therefore, being able to keep the team playing at a high level even though they are young. They have to play all the games to see how good they are. I believe the future is very bright.

So what are the arguments that would change my mind?

 

[BoiledSteel]

I think you are reading entirely too much in to everything.

 

[PU52Chevy]

I have no arguments......

IMO this I the strongest team to get us to a Final 4 and win a NCAA Championship since the year Hummel got hurt.

The 4 seniors are the core, Boogie the talent, Taylor and Ewing the depth of experience needed and the freshman the wild cards but the athletic talent needed to compliment the rest of the teams efforts.

We will challenge for a Big Ten Title again, Big Ten Tourney Title and go deep in the tourney.

We have the team and talent....

Now like everyone else we need the "Luck" to fall in place.

Takes a great team and luck to win it all......now is our time!

Boiler Up!

 

[ghostoffatjack]

If he teaches the newcomers to play Purdue defense and let's them fly on offense it could be our best chance to go deep in the tournament!

 

[Purdue Grad in Texas]

I have no arguments......

IMO this I the strongest team to get us to a Final 4 and win a NCAA Championship since the year Hummel got hurt.

The 4 seniors are the core, Boogie the talent, Taylor and Ewing the depth of experience needed and the freshman the wild cards but the athletic talent needed to compliment the rest of the teams efforts.

We will challenge for a Big Ten Title again, Big Ten Tourney Title and go deep in the tourney.

We have the team and talent....

Now like everyone else we need the "Luck" to fall in place.

Takes a great team and luck to win it all......now is our time!

Boiler Up!

 

[PU52Chevy]

In 3hrs 32min but who's counting!

 

[Wolegib]

the key is to get the talent to mesh and build a chemistry and play off each other's talents.

the best example I can give was the old NBA Clippers. they had more talent on that team than 95% of the rest of NBA teams. but only Larry Brown could ever lead that team to anything more than .500 ball.

to be able to win it all, we will have to find a way to beat the faster, more athletic teams, and be able to dictate the tempo. We played Louisville and Kansas last year, and will probably face them once more in a drive to a national championship this year. We have to develop a game plan to take advantage of our strengths, and take away what they do best.

these university games provide a great opportunity, because we will play many different teams with totally different styles, and very little scouting reports available. The Atlantis tournament will also provide a great indicator as will our rematch against Louisville. I could care less what our record or RPI will end up being. We're not going to face any tougher team in the tourney than the ones we face in our preseason and our conference, and conference tourney. We get to face IU, Michigan, MSU, and UW on the road. they match up with anybody.

I think the problem is some of believe sweet 16 is our destination, and some believe we will be even better. Let's think about it, that's a great situation to have.

 

[SIBoiler2]

I'm looking for Purdue to win a World Championship first then follow it up with a strong season long run ending very deep in the tournament.

 

[DG10]

Are we too close to the situation to see what is going on? Over the last few weeks there have been some pretty spirted conversations about how good Purdue is, how good they should be, and how we are not very good at all, not elite. I too get caught up in it all from time-to-time as well.

I strongly believe Purdue Men’s basketball is getting better and cannot think of a time when we have been in a better situation. Yes there may have been some stronger teams, but this team with the new additions looks very strong to me. The more I hear about some of the new guys the more I start thinking this team has a chance to be elite. Are we going to win the national title? Only time will tell.

Painter has a proven track record of finding really good players that fly a little under the radar. He is now in a position that he does not need large recruiting class full of top notch talent just to survive. If he can keep this train rolling at the current pace he may only need two or three good recruits a year. At some point we are going to be young again and that’s hard to overcome, but I see are last couple of recruiting class as being stronger than years before, therefore, being able to keep the team playing at a high level even though they are young. They have to play all the games to see how good they are. I believe the future is very bright.

So what are the arguments that would change my mind?

Yes, too close to the situation.

There is a reason that Purdue is not a Top 25 team, or fringe one, and it is not because the people that follow it and do those things for a living are not close enough to the situation.

Two years ago, Purdue had a very talented team and lost in the first round of the tournament to a team that it had absolutely no business losing to...a year ago, with maybe a better team, it lost by more than 30 points in the Sweet 16...two teams that on paper had the talent on the roster to make a run at a Final Four and neither even sniffed it.

This team is deeper than last year's...and is still talented...but, hard to say that it is better absent the best player from a year ago and a guy that was arguably the best player in college basketball.

It certainly seems that the teams that win have superior talent, at least way more often than not...and Purdue unfortunately is not a program where superior talent finds its way to very often...when it has had it, it has had its greatest successes, but, even there, it has been almost 40 years now since Purdue played in a Final Four.

Painter has done a great job of expanding the recruiting base, but, he has done a horrible job of locking down the premier in-state talent...and, while his recruiting has improved in recent years (largely in part to having expanded that recruiting base), Purdue still is not able to keep up with the premier programs in the conference in that regard, never mind nationally.

 

[boilerbusdriver]

I know we are talking about this year, and my 2cents are we will come out of the gate fast, with having all this practice time and games to be played, my only concern is two fold, keep everybody Healthy and after the International Games get these young men some rest, get their bodies and minds rested and recharged for the Regular Season.

We lose 4 starting Seniors next year, but will return 4 players that should receive loads of PTime this year, Carsen, Nojel, Wheeler, Eden. I just hope we can land 2-3 more talented players to go along with T. Williams who has committed. 2 solid recruiting classes back-back, then watch out, the sky is the limit for the next 3-4 years for this Boiler team!!

 

[Inkjet200]

It will take lots and lots of magic and wizardry.

 

[tjreese]

If he teaches the newcomers to play Purdue defense and let's them fly on offense it could be our best chance to go deep in the tournament!

"Fly" within reason...a bad offense creates a weak defense. I'm sure you can relate with football as well

 

[tjreese]

I know we are talking about this year, and my 2cents are we will come out of the gate fast, with having all this practice time and games to be played, my only concern is two fold, keep everybody Healthy and after the International Games get these young men some rest, get their bodies and minds rested and recharged for the Regular Season.

We lose 4 starting Seniors next year, but will return 4 players that should receive loads of PTime this year, Carsen, Nojel, Wheeler, Eden. I just hope we can land 2-3 more talented players to go along with T. Williams who has committed. 2 solid recruiting classes back-back, then watch out, the sky is the limit for the next 3-4 years for this Boiler team!!

my concern is the second half of the Big...when the rotations and playing time are getting clearer and clearer...how is the chemistry with so many minutes to go around and more players to spit that up?

 

[nagemj02]

I think Painter and staff needed to add a proven shot-blocking 4-5 type and another guard that can effectively score and shoot off of their own dribble. However, just as important, they needed to pass on offering a couple of the guys that ended up committing for the 2017 class (to max-out the team's potential while still being at 13 scholarships), in order to have a roster (on paper) with Final Four-type of ability. IMO, as of right now, their postseason ceiling looks like a Sweet Sixteen appearance once again.

 

[Dakota Girl]

I think Painter and staff needed to add a proven shot-blocking 4-5 type and another guard that can effectively score and shoot off of their own dribble. However, just as important, they needed to pass on offering a couple of the guys that ended up committing for the 2017 class (to max-out the team's potential while still being at 13 scholarships), in order to have a roster (on paper) with Final Four-type of ability. IMO, as of right now, their postseason ceiling looks like a Sweet Sixteen appearance once again.

That's a good idea adding a PROVEN 4/5 shot blocker and guard who could not only make a high D1 P5 conference team better but also be impactful in a final four level setting. That's a cakewalk! Do you suggest free-agency or should we have tanked the last couple of seasons to stockpile number one draft picks?
Or is a list of Joe Justanotherguys from every tiny conference in the country going to cover it?
How do you know the guys in the 17 class are not integral to future success? You don't. Just like I don't know if they are. I guess I just hope they are good and you just assume they are not.

 

[arcb102000]

I think Painter and staff needed to add a proven shot-blocking 4-5 type and another guard that can effectively score and shoot off of their own dribble. However, just as important, they needed to pass on offering a couple of the guys that ended up committing for the 2017 class (to max-out the team's potential while still being at 13 scholarships), in order to have a roster (on paper) with Final Four-type of ability. IMO, as of right now, their postseason ceiling looks like a Sweet Sixteen appearance once again.

I have no idea how anyone can make a statement about the NCAA tournament at this time. So much is dependent upon matchups and style and at this point no information is available that would allow for even a remotely premature judgment.

 

[SIBoiler2]

my concern is the second half of the Big...when the rotations and playing time are getting clearer and clearer...how is the chemistry with so many minutes to go around and more players to spit that up?

Keep on winning and that will take care of itself.

 

[PU52Chevy]

That's a good idea adding a PROVEN 4/5 shot blocker and guard who could not only make a high D1 P5 conference team better but also be impactful in a final four level setting. That's a cakewalk! Do you suggest free-agency or should we have tanked the last couple of seasons to stockpile number one draft picks?
Or is a list of Joe Justanotherguys from every tiny conference in the country going to cover it?
How do you know the guys in the 17 class are not integral to future success? You don't. Just like I don't know if they are. I guess I just hope they are good and you just assume they are not.[/QUOTE

Maybe we should have everyone watch Shawshank Redemption...l about hope.

And not Danny Hope.....even thought I liked him as a coach and leader of young men.

Boiler Up to all especially those being negative!

 

[Wolegib]

As I look back, the vast majority of NCAA championship teams won based on outstanding guard play rather than building a team around a dominant center. I haven't seen a dominant center win a championship game in a long time. As I also look back, the majority of our losses in the tournament were the result of other teams sagging in on our dominant center. And we lost several close games we should have won by missing FTs at the end of the game. This is why I would like to see Purdue become more guard oriented and attract elite guards rather than more elite big men.

I haven't seen Haarms play. I have only seen limited minutes of Taylor play. I haven't seen Williams or Ewing play. We have two more years of Ewing and Taylor and Williams arrives next year. Is Taylor known as a rim protector and shot blocker? Is Williams? The paper analysis on Haarms suggests he's more of a perimeter player than rim protector. Ewing is physical, but not known as a shot blocker.

I was disappointed those two center targets couldn't wait for Swanigan's announcement and signed elsewhere. They would have filled that role. I was surprised but not disappointed that we signed Sasha when we did instead of a center.

I'd like to see Dow sign, but aren't Dow and Williams similar type of players? Would we play them both at the same time? They'd make a great center combo, but would they make a great C/PF combo? I'd rather have a great C/PF combo rather than having those two splitting time at center. i am not sold on Castleton, but feel with Williams, we are better off signing a PF than another quality center.

 

[Dakota Girl]

Don't know if harms will be a good shot blocker or not but keep in mind that just because a guy may be a stretch 4 or 5 on offense does not mean he cannot defend in the paint. My guess is that he will become a good rim protector relative to say Haas because he is really long and rather agile.

 

[Wolegib]

Haarms is an interesting guy. Rather than trying to make him into a center, maybe Painter should continue to develop his perimeter and PF skills. he supposedly has a great outside shot, and at 7'+, he should be able to get some mismatches at PF on the perimeter.

This year we'll have Haas and Taylor at center, so we really don't need Haarms playing center. and next year, we'll have Taylor and Williams. So Haarms would be a nice complement at PF. Go with Ewing if we want to go physical, and Haarms for a perimeter attack. if Purdue were to add Dow, there would be no need for Haarms to play center.

I believe it could be a very interesting BIG line-up next year with Eastern at PG, C Edwards at Sg, Wheeler at Sf, Haarms at PF, and Williams/Taylor at center. Rather than going small ball, we could look for mismatches and go BIG ball.

 

[nagemj02]

That's a good idea adding a PROVEN 4/5 shot blocker and guard who could not only make a high D1 P5 conference team better but also be impactful in a final four level setting. That's a cakewalk! Do you suggest free-agency or should we have tanked the last couple of seasons to stockpile number one draft picks?
Or is a list of Joe Justanotherguys from every tiny conference in the country going to cover it?
How do you know the guys in the 17 class are not integral to future success? You don't. Just like I don't know if they are. I guess I just hope they are good and you just assume they are not.

I'm just giving my opinion. Everyone is entitled to one, despite your best efforts to make it seem otherwise.

I never said the guys in the 2017 class aren't integral to future success. I said that maybe the staff should have passed on offering A COUPLE of the guys that ended up committing, in order to have a stronger overall collection of newcomers this season.

 

[mathboy]

I'm just giving my opinion. Everyone is entitled to one, despite your best efforts to make it seem otherwise.

I never said the guys in the 2017 class aren't integral to future success. I said that maybe the staff should have passed on offering A COUPLE of the guys that ended up committing, in order to have a stronger overall collection of newcomers this season.

I just have to ask the question... which two 2017 guys would you have passed on?

 

[cprh9u]

I have no idea how anyone can make a statement about the NCAA tournament at this time. So much is dependent upon matchups and style and at this point no information is available that would allow for even a remotely premature judgment.

Well, since CMP hasn't been able to get past the sweet 16 in 12 years, and we have had more talented teams, I think Nage saying that appears to be the ceiling is perfectly reasonable. No one KNOWS for sure, but if there were odds on it and you had to bet, I don't think many would put money on Painter leading us past the sweet 16 this year.

 

[BoilerAndy]

I just have to ask the question... which two 2017 guys would you have passed on?

This was my question. Nag has said that Purdue will never get to the Final Four without a JUCO. Painter signs a very good JUCO and Nag has said that we should have passed on him. He'll have to name the other player(s) he would not have signed. But since he never approves of anything Painter does, it could be all of them.

 

[mathboy]

Well, since CMP hasn't been able to get past the sweet 16 in 12 years, and we have had more talented teams, I think Nage saying that appears to be the ceiling is perfectly reasonable. No one KNOWS for sure, but if there were odds on it and you had to bet, I don't think many would put money on Painter leading us past the sweet 16 this year.

I think this is poor logic. You assume that the only factor in reaching/not reaching the FF is the coach. I think the players have considerably more to do with this than you give credit. I also think that match-ups/random luck/coaching/assistant coaching/players’ experience/coach learns new stuff/etc. all play into whether your team reaches the FF. We have seen many coaches reach the FF when their previous record was no better than SS or worse! Right? We have also seen many FF coaches never get back to the FF for as long as they coach. What that tells me is that coaching is a part, but only a part of the magic needed to reach the FF.

 

[nagemj02]

This was my question. Nag has said that Purdue will never get to the Final Four without a JUCO. Painter signs a very good JUCO and Nag has said that we should have passed on him. He'll have to name the other player(s) he would not have signed. But since he never approves of anything Painter does, it could be all of them.

The poster Wilt has said that. I have never said that ("need a JUCO to get to the Final Four"). I also haven't said which two commits I would have passed on offering. There are three or four different people in this thread that are trying to put words into my mouth.

 

[nagemj02]

I just have to ask the question... which two 2017 guys would you have passed on?

Stefanovic and Ewing

 

[Dakota Girl]

I'm just giving my opinion. Everyone is entitled to one, despite your best efforts to make it seem otherwise.

I never said the guys in the 2017 class aren't integral to future success. I said that maybe the staff should have passed on offering A COUPLE of the guys that ended up committing, in order to have a stronger overall collection of newcomers this season.

I have made no attempt to stop your expression. Just disagreed with it. As usual you fail to see that and instead of countering with a solid argument supporting your stance, you whine about repression. You think a couple guys shouldn't be on the team. Go ahead. What do you do about it? Have 7 man class in '18?
Stop crying and show me where I'm wrong.

 

[tjreese]

Keep on winning and that will take care of itself.

it certainly helps, but although winning may be all for some, it isn't for some. I hope the new kids have the PJ approach to winning, but fear humanity odds might find one a little more me. My fear and it has nothing to do with anything other than timing..is will a guy with two years wait...IF that were to happen and still keep good locker room chemistry? I have no insight, rumors...nothing other than general feel of humanity...

 

[SIBoiler2]

it certainly helps, but although winning may be all for some, it isn't for some. I hope the new kids have the PJ approach to winning, but fear humanity odds might find one a little more me. My fear and it has nothing to do with anything other than timing..is will a guy with two years wait...IF that were to happen and still keep good locker room chemistry? I have no insight, rumors...nothing other than general feel of humanity...

I understand your concerns but counter with a coach who seemingly has matured since a time where lots of "me" players were recruited. By recruiting a more team oriented and family grounded kid you can limit that attitude somewhat although leadership does require that a player have a touch of ego.

 

[mathboy]

Stefanovic and Ewing

I can see that. They are the most unknown talent at this point. Stefanovic seems like a Cline-Clone, a shooter than does not have much else going for him. We know little about Ewing as a D player. As for me, I will reserve judgement and see how these two work out.

 

[PurdueBtfu2]

I think this is poor logic. You assume that the only factor in reaching/not reaching the FF is the coach. I think the players have considerably more to do with this than you give credit. I also think that match-ups/random luck/coaching/assistant coaching/players’ experience/coach learns new stuff/etc. all play into whether your team reaches the FF. We have seen many coaches reach the FF when their previous record was no better than SS or worse! Right? We have also seen many FF coaches never get back to the FF for as long as they coach. What that tells me is that coaching is a part, but only a part of the magic needed to reach the FF.

Certainly there is not only one factor alone that determines Final Four success. However, I feel your argument against this poster greatly diminishes the role of a head coach. The head coach is the one responsible for recruiting those players and assembling his team, teaching them his X's and O's, creating the overall atmosphere of the program (affecting fundraising, ticket sales, revenue, and on). Head coaches may not be the only reason for successful programs, but they are a primary key.

Reaching the Final Four may be a "magical" run for a George Mason, but was it just magical when Butler did it twice? Was it maybe because they had a pretty good coach and assembled a pretty good team?

 

[mathboy]

Certainly there is not only one factor alone that determines Final Four success. However, I feel your argument against this poster greatly diminishes the role of a head coach. The head coach is the one responsible for recruiting those players and assembling his team, teaching them his X's and O's, creating the overall atmosphere of the program (affecting fundraising, ticket sales, revenue, and on). Head coaches may not be the only reason for successful programs, but they are a primary key.

Reaching the Final Four may be a "magical" run for a George Mason, but was it just magical when Butler did it twice? Was it maybe because they had a pretty good coach and assembled a pretty good team?

Don't really disagree. Stevens did a good job with his team, but was he also responsible for the first round loss the year before? Of course. Anyone drawing the line from that year would have said Stevens will never get better than the first round. Right?

My point was that many factors go into tournament success. Making the assumption that because a coach has not gone beyond S16 before, means he will never go beyond S16 is faulty logic that assumes only one variable.

 

[BoilerAndy]

The poster Wilt has said that. I have never said that ("need a JUCO to get to the Final Four"). I also haven't said which two commits I would have passed on offering. There are three or four different people in this thread that are trying to put words into my mouth.

You argued long and hard on Wilt's side in a long thread on the topic, which is why you remember it so well. And you made similar statements in other threads that you started. You now deflecting and trying to deny it is typical Nag.

 

[PurdueBtfu2]

Don't really disagree. Stevens did a good job with his team, but was he also responsible for the first round loss the year before? Of course. Anyone drawing the line from that year would have said Stevens will never get better than the first round. Right?

My point was that many factors go into tournament success. Making the assumption that because a coach has not gone beyond S16 before, means he will never go beyond S16 is faulty logic that assumes only one variable.

No. I did not read poster cprh9u statement as a never happening event or an extreme negative. In fact he clarified similar to you, that no one knows for sure and was simply talking his odds, and accounting for other factors like talent.

 

[Wolegib]

I also questioned the Ewing and Sasha signings. But in so doing, I was the one who cried, begged and craved for an inside physical PF, and that's exactly what Ewing is. Yes, I wanted JJJ and Ward, but Ewing was the #1 ranked JuCo PF, so he must be good. To me, Sasha was kind of overkill at the guard position. But, he's a good player and worthy of a scholarship. Many analysts projected Haarms as more of a perimeter player than a center. I was hoping with Swanigan projected to leave, and the fact we were still recruiting some quality centers, That we might have used the Sasha scholarship on a shot blocking, defensive minded center. Sasha is a good player in his own right, I was just hoping for another big man rather than a guard.

You all know how much I loved the Eastern signing.

I also love the Wheeler signing for a different reason. He was the #2 guy all season on his high school team. But when the going got tough in their championship game, and their star player was being double teamed, he came through, elevated his game, made the clutch shots, enabling their team to win the national championship. I hope Wheeler remains a small forward. But he just seems like a guy who puts the team ahead of the individual. And when needed, he will be ready to produce.

While I wanted to add a shot blocking center, some of the centers Painter was recruiting seemed to be 2-3 year projects. I hate projects.

 

[Wolegib]

The aspect/issue I had with the Sasha signing was not the player, but with the timing of it. At the time he committed, Swanigan hadn't officially declared for the draft, but most people were speculating he would enter it. And at that time, Painter was recruiting several quality BIG men who just couldn't wait, and signed elsewhere. From Sasha's comments, he really loves Purdue and wanted to play for Purdue. My speculation is that Sasha would have been willing to wait until Swanigan announced his decision, And Painter would have been able to recruit one of those big men he was after. In that manner, we would have ended up with a quality BIG man and Sasha. By committing to Sasha, we had no scholarships to offer, and the BIG men couldn't wait and went elsewhere.

 

[nagemj02]

I have made no attempt to stop your expression. Just disagreed with it. As usual you fail to see that and instead of countering with a solid argument supporting your stance, you whine about repression. You think a couple guys shouldn't be on the team. Go ahead. What do you do about it? Have 7 man class in '18?
Stop crying and show me where I'm wrong.

"That's a good idea adding a PROVEN 4/5 shot blocker and guard who could not only make a high D1 P5 conference team better but also be impactful in a final four level setting. That's a cakewalk! Do you suggest free-agency or should we have tanked the last couple of seasons to stockpile number one draft picks?
Or is a list of Joe Justanotherguys from every tiny conference in the country going to cover it?
How do you know the guys in the 17 class are not integral to future success? You don't. Just like I don't know if they are. I guess I just hope they are good and you just assume they are not."

That's not trying to strongly curtail my expression? lol That's more than simply disagreeing with me.

 

[nagemj02]

You argued long and hard on Wilt's side in a long thread on the topic, which is why you remember it so well. And you made similar statements in other threads that you started. You now deflecting and trying to deny it is typical Nag.

Lol, show me this thread that you speak of, Andy. Go ahead and search for it on here. Find it and post it.