Are some of you nuts??? (long, so sue me)

[Purdue85]

Edit: I'll remove my response. This topic is taking a life of it's own.

 

[Do Dah Day]

Edit: I'll remove my response. This topic is taking a life of it's own.

Or a death of its own ... oh well ....

 

[purduepat1969]

You're being lazy.

Who here has said they're "very happy with Painter"??

(Hint: Nobody)

That's where you betray yourself. You show you're not interested in an intellectually honest conversation. At that point you lost anyone who is interested in that conversation. All the rest of your rant is "blah blah blah PAINTER SUCKS blah blah blah blah PAINTER SUCKS blah blah blah . . . . "

There's nothing of value there.

Now, if you wish to have a sincere conversation, try not starting off with the premise that anyone who disagrees with you is "very happy with Painter". There are numerous threads that detail what a fools errand it is to think we're going to get something substantially better than Painter, given his extraordinary success. (See Bob's thread.)

Aside from that, start with the realization that you have absolutely ZERO effect on who occupies the chair at the end of the bench, nor do any other posters on this forum. What's more, it's idiotic for you to position yourself as the "know it all" when it comes to the success of this program, and what needs to be done to secure whatever success it is you demand.

I don't mean to offend you with what I'm about to say. I sincerely don't. But I believe it's you who may not want to have an intellectually honest conversation. No one on this board honestly believes they have any impact on who sits at the end of the bench. So why are you so scared about having a conversation about Painter? It feels like you're blindly defending him when I think it's realistic to question his results. Nobody's arguing that a 30 win season isn't good. But what the OP said about Painter's record vs Matta's is accurate. And no one can argue his tournament record. Based on a .664 win percentage, I wouldn't call his success "extraordinary". And Painter doesn't ever come up in conversation as one of the best in the business. Yes a solid coach. But he's by far not even the best coach in the B1G. I'd put him behind Beilein, Izzo, and probably Holtman.

Just shutting people down who have differing opinions doesn't make you right. It's you who could be perceived as coming across as a "know it all" with your reply.

 

[tjreese]

To the OP and all those who are very happy with Painter:

I think CMP is a slightly above average coach. Give any slightly above average B1G coach 13 years at a B1G school with solid tradition and they better come up with 2 league championships and a handful of S16's. At many schools they would need more than that, but I certainly agree since Painter has made it to year 13 and just had 30 wins and a S16 appearance, you don't fire him (unless you are UK or KU or UNC, etc.).

Thad Matta seems like a good comparison. He was a solid basketball coach in the same conference in the same region of the country. OSU was nothing special before he arrived, having appeared in 3 straight championship games from 1960-1962, but doing little of note since. Matta coached 13 years, same as CMP. Here is the comparison:

Overall Record- Matta 337–123 (.733). Painter 295–149 (.664)
NCAA Appearances- Matta 9 our of 13 years. Painter 10 out of 13 years
B1G championships- Matta 5. Painter 2.
Elite 8/Final 4's- Matta 3/2. Painter 0/0.

Bottom line, is it such a horrible thing to have Gene Keady 2.0 in Painter? Nope, it could be worse. But why not try to find our Matta, who was given more money after some success at Butler/Xavier or look for our Beilein, hired away from WVU and who in year 11 has 2 more Final 4's and 3 more Elite 8's than CMP, not to mention a shot at a championship this weekend.

I agree with many others, that we will LIKELY look up 20 years from now and have a few more sweet 16's, 2-3 more league championships, and maybe one wild ride to a Elite 8 somewhere and CMP will retire as a Purdue "legend". I think at this point he is who we've known him to be. Solid but not great recruiter, not overly innovative, but just solid and steady. Will get a great player or a really good team every once in a while, but can't tack together multiple top tier players or classes (See Baby Boilers or Biggie). And all of the above is good enough for many on here. Good for you. As a fan, I would like to see more. As a fan, I will voice that until we try. You can hate me for it, but I would just like to see more. This is a forum to voice that opinion, just like it's a forum for many of you to profess your loyalty and appreciation of CMP. Have a wonderful Easter weekend.

However good Matta was or is...ohio state was a gold mine 30 years ago and still is. Huge football revenue and loyalty of a more populist state than Indiana. Osu shares today with X and recently with Cindy and IU has the loyalty of most the state and you have Purdue, nd and butler. I think osu is the best job in the big

 

[SKYDOG]

To the OP and all those who are very happy with Painter:

I think CMP is a slightly above average coach. Give any slightly above average B1G coach 13 years at a B1G school with solid tradition and they better come up with 2 league championships and a handful of S16's. At many schools they would need more than that, but I certainly agree since Painter has made it to year 13 and just had 30 wins and a S16 appearance, you don't fire him (unless you are UK or KU or UNC, etc.).

Thad Matta seems like a good comparison. He was a solid basketball coach in the same conference in the same region of the country. OSU was nothing special before he arrived, having appeared in 3 straight championship games from 1960-1962, but doing little of note since. Matta coached 13 years, same as CMP. Here is the comparison:

Overall Record- Matta 337–123 (.733). Painter 295–149 (.664)
NCAA Appearances- Matta 9 our of 13 years. Painter 10 out of 13 years
B1G championships- Matta 5. Painter 2.
Elite 8/Final 4's- Matta 3/2. Painter 0/0.

Bottom line, is it such a horrible thing to have Gene Keady 2.0 in Painter? Nope, it could be worse. But why not try to find our Matta, who was given more money after some success at Butler/Xavier or look for our Beilein, hired away from WVU and who in year 11 has 2 more Final 4's and 3 more Elite 8's than CMP, not to mention a shot at a championship this weekend.

I agree with many others, that we will LIKELY look up 20 years from now and have a few more sweet 16's, 2-3 more league championships, and maybe one wild ride to a Elite 8 somewhere and CMP will retire as a Purdue "legend". I think at this point he is who we've known him to be. Solid but not great recruiter, not overly innovative, but just solid and steady. Will get a great player or a really good team every once in a while, but can't tack together multiple top tier players or classes (See Baby Boilers or Biggie). And all of the above is good enough for many on here. Good for you. As a fan, I would like to see more. As a fan, I will voice that until we try. You can hate me for it, but I would just like to see more. This is a forum to voice that opinion, just like it's a forum for many of you to profess your loyalty and appreciation of CMP. Have a wonderful Easter weekend.

I believe Painter is a way above average coach. Would like him to change his recruiting philosophy. Wish he would stop recruiting very tall post players. There is more of a need for quick jumping 6'8" type players as the game has changed significantly over time. CMP seems to be stubborn and continues to recruit the same type of players year after year. Maybe it's because these are the only type players he can get?

I am satisfied with coach so far, however he needs to move the bar a bit more in the next few years. Hopefully he will.

 

[RegionWarrior101]

I believe Painter is a way above average coach. Would like him to change his recruiting philosophy. Wish he would stop recruiting very tall post players. There is more of a need for quick jumping 6'8" type players as the game has changed significantly over time. CMP seems to be stubborn and continues to recruit the same type of players year after year. Maybe it's because these are the only type players he can get?

I am satisfied with coach so far, however he needs to move the bar a bit more in the next few years. Hopefully he will.

You are right on. We had JJ who sometimes got pushed around so then he wanted to recruit giants as everyone else went more athletic. Wants that true back to the basket C like Shaq. I know Painter "starred" in Blue Chips, but that recruiting style is dated.

 

[Purdue85]

I don't mean to offend you with what I'm about to say. I sincerely don't. But I believe it's you who may not want to have an intellectually honest conversation. No one on this board honestly believes they have any impact on who sits at the end of the bench. So why are you so scared about having a conversation about Painter? It feels like you're blindly defending him when I think it's realistic to question his results. Nobody's arguing that a 30 win season isn't good. But what the OP said about Painter's record vs Matta's is accurate. And no one can argue his tournament record. Based on a .664 win percentage, I wouldn't call his success "extraordinary". And Painter doesn't ever come up in conversation as one of the best in the business. Yes a solid coach. But he's by far not even the best coach in the B1G. I'd put him behind Beilein, Izzo, and probably Holtman.

Just shutting people down who have differing opinions doesn't make you right. It's you who could be perceived as coming across as a "know it all" with your reply.

You don't offend me, but this is the stupidity of this board.

If you want to be taken seriously, why would you assert I'm . . . "SCARED"??

That's moronic.

I'm . . . "blindly defending him"???

Where have I defended him?

And where the hell have people been "shut down"?? This board is littered with b*llsh*t from the Painter haters. Anyone who offers up any differing opinion is accused of the same crap.

Newsflash, genius: We're fans on an internet forum. We have ZERO influence over who coaches this team. It's non-stop, the mindless drivel that floods this forum by those who claim they have all the answers by firing Painter.

Got some solutions? Have at it!

But, put on your big boy pants, because your position WILL be scrutinized. And when that happens, it's not someone who (as you claim) is SCARED.

Good grief.

EDIT:
What's more, it wasn't Matta Painter was being compared to, it was Crean.
Flipping CREAN!
Wow.

 

[Purdue85]

However good Marta was or is...ohio state was a gold mine 30 years ago and still is. Huge football revenue and loyalty of a more populist state than Indiana. Osu shares today with X and recently with Cindy and IU has the loyalty of most the state and you have Purdue, nd and butler. I think osu is the best job in the big

Yup.

And they should be cleaning up, year in and year out.

 

[Purdue85]

I don't mean to offend you with what I'm about to say. I sincerely don't. But I believe it's you who may not want to have an intellectually honest conversation. No one on this board honestly believes they have any impact on who sits at the end of the bench. So why are you so scared about having a conversation about Painter? It feels like you're blindly defending him when I think it's realistic to question his results. Nobody's arguing that a 30 win season isn't good. But what the OP said about Painter's record vs Matta's is accurate. And no one can argue his tournament record. Based on a .664 win percentage, I wouldn't call his success "extraordinary". And Painter doesn't ever come up in conversation as one of the best in the business. Yes a solid coach. But he's by far not even the best coach in the B1G. I'd put him behind Beilein, Izzo, and probably Holtman.

Just shutting people down who have differing opinions doesn't make you right. It's you who could be perceived as coming across as a "know it all" with your reply.

Follow up . . .

Maybe I came down hard on your post, but come on, man. Nobody is "scared" about having any "conversation". That's what's been going on here ad nauseum. To suggest such a thing is incredibly offensive.

What's more, I don't recall a Painter vs Matta conversation, and I certainly never made the case Painter is . . . "extraordinary"! That's insane.

Additionally, Holtman is brand new to the B1G. Can we at least recognize he should be nowhere near this conversation after only one friggin' year on the job?

If we're going to be rational, let's be rational.

 

[Flash75]

Okay, this has been getting beyond ludicrous. And here I thought most of us on this board were Purdue engineering graduates, or otherwise had some concept of logic and rationale.

So let me get this straight - some of you would gladly get rid of Matt Painter simply because he has not reached the Elite Eight or Final Four as yet. You know, fire the coach who has won 30 games and has a better career winning percentage than the guy with his name on the floor???

Yeah, that would sure send a message to possible replacements, huh? So have any of you who want to ditch CMP thought about the repercussions of what that would do to the program???

First of all, when you go to hire a replacement - likely someone who has won a lot, but may not be winning at the same or better percentage than Painter - how do you think they would feel about signing up when they know their predecessor was fired after winning 30 games and a higher percentage of games than they had? I mean, no pressure there, huh? Just get to the Final Four, pal, all else will work out!

So we tell them, hey, no worries, just land a top ten recruiting class in your first year and take them to at least an Elite Eight before we extend you, k??? So how long do we give this unicorn coach in his first contract? Four years? Five? Six? I mean, when do we pull the damn plug if we don't get to the third weekend?

Really??? I mean, REALLY?

Okay, so maybe we scare off some top young coaches who might want a little stability for the young families they might be raising. So we go throw some money at someone who HAS won at a higher career percentage than Matt. You know, cause since they already win at a higher percentage, the fact we fired someone for winning at a lesser clip isn't going to let that intimidate them, will it? Good plan, huh?

Well, maybe not. Cause if you think you're going to lure away the likes of Coach K, Roy Williams, Bill Self, Calipari, or other Big Name Coach, et al - or even perennial fantasy fav, Billy Donovan, then I want what you are smoking!

But wait, there are more! So who else is there?

Exactly these coaches:
1) Mark Few (Gonzaga)
2) Dave Rose (BYU)
3) Greg Marshall (Wichita State)
4) Jamie Dixon (TCU)
5) Randy Bennett (St. Mary's-CA)
6) Tony Bennett (UVA)

That's it. And of those, only Mark Few and Greg Marshall have been to a Final Four - once, each. Mark Few in his 18th season, and Greg Marshall in his 15th season.

Well, out of those, I think it's safe to say that Mark Few ain't going anywhere. He's been offered Oregon (his alma mater), and Arizona, and he continues to pass. And he just completed his 19th year at Gonzaga. So cross him off.

Likewise, Tony Bennett has been at UVa for 9 years now, and 3 years at Washington State before that, so if he goes somewhere, it would likely be to a bigger fish than Purdue.

Dave Rose and Randy Bennett have been battling Mark Few in the WCC for 13 years and 17 years, respectively. If neither of them have left for greener pastures by now, what makes you think either one will jump at the chance to put a gun to their head at a Purdue program that has had traditional problems recruiting top players?

And Jamie Dixon? Please, really? He has had double-digit losses in 6 of his last seven seasons. Four of his last five teams at Pitt, and with both of his TCU teams. He was a flash in the pan years ago, but hasn't done much since. And more importantly, he has never sniffed a Final Four, and his overall W-L ncaa tourney record is 12-12. Lots of potential there!

Which brings us to Greg Marshall. He's already in his 20th year of coaching, 11 years at Wichita State, and he's already turned down the likes of Alabama and NC State. He wasn't all that interested in the Illinois job, so he is not apparently lusting to duke it out in the B1G, and he did outwardly admit he had wanted the Texas job after Barnes left. Doesn't sound like he'd be all that juiced about Purdue, IMHO. Especially with a "get to the Final Four or else" dictum in his contract.

So where does that leave us?

It leaves us fishing, that's where. Fishing for some young and promising coach who is foolish enough to ignore the fact we fired a coach after winning 30 games and just missed two possible Elite Eights (and Final Fours???) due to the unfortunate timing of injuries. But hey, maybe he is crazy enough to overlook the nuttiness of it all.

But then, maybe not his recruits. Ever thought about that??? As has been so eloquently blathered about ad nauseam in other recent threads, apparently recruits care nothing more than the coach they will be playing for. Okay, so how would they feel about committing to a school where the coach is always on the hot seat after missing the prior Final Four? Do they really want to risk the commitment if their cherished coach-to-be might be fired for some other "hot" coach du jour? I mean, the heady night life in West Lafayette notwithstanding, and the miles of endless and beautiful isolation amidst a scenic sea of cornfields that surround such a Xanadu, I'm thinking that a coach on the perennial hot seat would not be much of an inducement to sign. If you know what I mean.

And finally, what happens when our first savior falls short? You know, like Leon on the gridiron. Do we follow up that act with another "Akers" and "Colletto"? And how did that work out for Nebraska football after they tossed Solich? Was all that red in the stands what the fans were wearing, or from their contorted, angry faces? So do we eventually turn into the basketball version of the Tennessee football dumpster fire? (oh wait, that's right, at least they had a national title in the past 20 years. Oops.) Or maybe we take the scenic route like the IU road through Davis/Sampson/Crean? At least they got a Final Four out of Davis. And I can still see the cherubic glow of satisfaction on their fans' faces to this day! Ahhhh, such memories!

So why not throw out one of the best coaches we've ever had and toss caution to the wind? I mean, who cares if we finish dead last every other year after all of our bought and paid for nba talent bolts for the draft? At least if we get to the holy grail of the Final Four, like Mike Davis did, WHO THE HELL CARES how many damn games we win, anyway?

Well, personally, I do.

So go ahead back to sniffing glue and dreaming your dreams of the Unicorn Coach and the endless third weekends of every March until even the ghost of Wooden longs to return home.

Pardon me if I don't join in the fun.

Great post. Thank you for stating what most of us feel.

 

[dwhitebash11]

I don't mean to offend you with what I'm about to say. I sincerely don't. But I believe it's you who may not want to have an intellectually honest conversation. No one on this board honestly believes they have any impact on who sits at the end of the bench. So why are you so scared about having a conversation about Painter? It feels like you're blindly defending him when I think it's realistic to question his results. Nobody's arguing that a 30 win season isn't good. But what the OP said about Painter's record vs Matta's is accurate. And no one can argue his tournament record. Based on a .664 win percentage, I wouldn't call his success "extraordinary". And Painter doesn't ever come up in conversation as one of the best in the business. Yes a solid coach. But he's by far not even the best coach in the B1G. I'd put him behind Beilein, Izzo, and probably Holtman.

Just shutting people down who have differing opinions doesn't make you right. It's you who could be perceived as coming across as a "know it all" with your reply.

To add Holtman in the top 3 Big Ten coaches (and ahead of Painter) after ONE good (not great) year, is disrespectful, and lacks merit. I do agree that Izzo and Beilein are better coaches, but not by much.

Painter is still relatively young and I think you'll see him improve in the next 5 years in every aspect.

 

[purduepat1969]

Follow up . . .

Maybe I came down hard on your post, but come on, man. Nobody is "scared" about having any "conversation". That's what's been going on here ad nauseum. To suggest such a thing is incredibly offensive.

What's more, I don't recall a Painter vs Matta conversation, and I certainly never made the case Painter is . . . "extraordinary"! That's insane.

Additionally, Holtman is brand new to the B1G. Can we at least recognize he should be nowhere near this conversation after only one friggin' year on the job?

If we're going to be rational, let's be rational.

And I quote from your post "There are numerous threads that detail what a fools errand it is to think we're going to get something substantially better than Painter, given his extraordinary success."

Secondarily, the original poster you responded to was not talking about Crean vs Painter. They were discussing Matta vs Painter.

Now I ask you who is the irrational one?

 

[SKYDOG]

You are right on. We had JJ who sometimes got pushed around so then he wanted to recruit giants as everyone else went more athletic. Wants that true back to the basket C like Shaq. I know Painter "starred" in Blue Chips, but that recruiting style is dated.

I believe if the style of play was tweaked a bit and changing the type of recruits targeted, Purdue would have the tournament success we all long for. One of these assistant coaches should camp out at Simeon, Whitney Young, Morgan Park, etc and develop that pipeline relationship to transpire to WL.

 

[tjreese]

You are right on. We had JJ who sometimes got pushed around so then he wanted to recruit giants as everyone else went more athletic. Wants that true back to the basket C like Shaq. I know Painter "starred" in Blue Chips, but that recruiting style is dated.

Not sure I buy that. He got the best he could with aj and then brought in haas with his shooters. Veey adaptive to what he has

 

[tjreese]

To add Holtman in the top 3 Big Ten coaches (and ahead of Painter) after ONE good (not great) year, is disrespectful, and lacks merit. I do agree that Izzo and Beilein are better coaches, but not by much.

Painter is still relatively young and I think you'll see him improve in the next 5 years in every aspect.

Even quicker if he gets the right players

 

[purduepat1969]

To add Holtman in the top 3 Big Ten coaches (and ahead of Painter) after ONE good (not great) year, is disrespectful, and lacks merit. I do agree that Izzo and Beilein are better coaches, but not by much.

I said "probably" Holtman, because at this point no one knows. But for his first year to be B1G coach of the year is pretty impressive.

 

[purduepat1969]

And I quote from your post "There are numerous threads that detail what a fools errand it is to think we're going to get something substantially better than Painter, given his extraordinary success."

Secondarily, the original poster you responded to was not talking about Crean vs Painter. They were discussing Matta vs Painter.

Now I ask you who is the irrational one?

No response Purdue85??

 

[Purdue85]

And I quote from your post "There are numerous threads that detail what a fools errand it is to think we're going to get something substantially better than Painter, given his extraordinary success."

Secondarily, the original poster you responded to was not talking about Crean vs Painter. They were discussing Matta vs Painter.

Now I ask you who is the irrational one?

Look, you can play this game all you like.

We lost Biggie going into this year. Everyone wrote us off. We pushed for the B1G title, went to the B1G Tournament Championship game, ROSE AS HIGH AS #3, WELL INTO THE SEASON, and had an extraordinary year.

Now, are you going to tell me that does NOT translate to extraordinary success"??? Really?

Saying all that does not mean I think he's an "extraordinary coach".

Goodness, people. Trying to be legalistic in an effort to catch someone with a "GOTCHA!" moment sounds like a really weak way to make your arguments.

 

[Purdue85]

No response Purdue85??

I was traveling all day, purduepat1969. Wanted to spend some time with family this Easter weekend. Apologies for not getting back to you as quickly as you prefer. I'll work harder.

 

[purduepat1969]

Look, you can play this game all you like.

We lost Biggie going into this year. Everyone wrote us off. We pushed for the B1G title, went to the B1G Tournament Championship game, ROSE AS HIGH AS #3, WELL INTO THE SEASON, and had an extraordinary year.

Now, are you going to tell me that does NOT translate to extraordinary success"??? Really?

Saying all that does not mean I think he's an "extraordinary coach".

Goodness, people. Trying to be legalistic in an effort to catch someone with a "GOTCHA!" moment sounds like a really weak way to make your arguments.

This is hilarious. You chastise me for challenging you on what you said, claiming you said none of it. Then I quote what you said, and you chastise me for that. The bottom line is you don’t agree with my opinion , so you try to make me look “irrational “. Funny stuff.

 

[Purdue85]

This is hilarious. You chastise me for challenging you on what you said, claiming you said none of it. Then I quote what you said, and you chastise me for that. The bottom line is you don’t agree with my opinion , so you try to make me look “irrational “. Funny stuff.

Pat, I don't mind being challenged. I don't care if you challenge every word I write. Have at it.

But, I want to be clear: I also certainly don't mind challenging people. Including you. If you can't handle being challenged, you might stay away from the forum. It's that simple, but I also think it would be shame for you not to post here. I've seen different posts from you that I've agreed with. We all have opinions on different topics, and we're gong to agree sometimes and disagree at other times. No big deal. Don't make it a big deal.

I was clear about what I said, and if you can't tell the difference between doing an exceptional job and being an exceptional coach, I can't help. The two are not the same.

You're stuck on this "irrational" thing. I've struck a nerve, but wasn't intentional.

I've read that communication is 55% body language, 38% tone of voice, and only 7% the words we use. That means when we're on this forum, somewhere around 93% of the message we intend to send is left up to reader to fill in with their assumptions. I've attempted to clarify, and you've rejected that. That's too bad.

 

[purduepat1969]

Pat, I don't mind being challenged. I don't care if you challenge every word I write. Have at it.

But, I want to be clear: I also certainly don't mind challenging people. Including you. If you can't handle being challenged, you might stay away from the forum. It's that simple, but I also think it would be shame for you not to post here. I've seen different posts from you that I've agreed with. We all have opinions on different topics, and we're gong to agree sometimes and disagree at other times. No big deal. Don't make it a big deal.

I was clear about what I said, and if you can't tell the difference between doing an exceptional job and being an exceptional coach, I can't help. The two are not the same.

You're stuck on this "irrational" thing. I've struck a nerve, but wasn't intentional.

I've read that communication is 55% body language, 38% tone of voice, and only 7% the words we use. That means when we're on this forum, somewhere around 93% of the message we intend to send is left up to reader to fill in with their assumptions. I've attempted to clarify, and you've rejected that. That's too bad.

Look, I'm sure you're a nice guy in real life. And I agree message boards are a terrible place to understand intent. But my original argument was that Painter isn't necessarily having "exceptional" results, especially when you compare the results to other very good coaches. I'm not stuck on irrational, but that's the only argument back that you've been consistent with. All of your other arguments have been all over the place. That's the point I was trying to make. We'll agree to disagree and move on. Doesn't mean I don't respect your opinion. Have a good Easter!

 

[Purdue85]

Look, I'm sure you're a nice guy in real life. And I agree message boards are a terrible place to understand intent. But my original argument was that Painter isn't necessarily having "exceptional" results, especially when you compare the results to other very good coaches. I'm not stuck on irrational, but that's the only argument back that you've been consistent with. All of your other arguments have been all over the place. That's the point I was trying to make. We'll agree to disagree and move on. Doesn't mean I don't respect your opinion. Have a good Easter!

Likewise . . . Have a fantastic Easter!

 

[typeviic]

I didn't provide my stance one way or another on Painter. No I don't think he should be fired at this point.

My question was, after 23 seasons would you be happy with several sweet 16s, but nothing further? No wrong answers, just curious to hear people's opinions.

As long as we only get role players and jump shooters with only 1 athlete, (CE), the S16 is our ceiling

 

[mathboy]

As long as we only get role players and jump shooters with only 1 athlete, (CE), the S16 is our ceiling

Not sure what your definition of athlete is, but I do get your point. I think Vince could create his own shot in a one-on-one situation like Carsen. I will also note that watching Nova, most of their shooters were hitting open jump shots. No need to create when Kansas couldn’t figure out how to cover all five Nova players.

 

[tjreese]

Not sure what your definition of athlete is, but I do get your point. I think Vince could create his own shot in a one-on-one situation like Carsen. I will also note that watching Nova, most of their shooters were hitting open jump shots. No need to create when Kansas couldn’t figure out how to cover all five Nova players.

almost every team I can recall has "role" players..players nto quite as all around good as others on the team and settle into more of a role for that team to be successful. Better players...equal better role players on a given team...

 

[SKYDOG]

Not sure what your definition of athlete is, but I do get your point. I think Vince could create his own shot in a one-on-one situation like Carsen. I will also note that watching Nova, most of their shooters were hitting open jump shots. No need to create when Kansas couldn’t figure out how to cover all five Nova players.

I believe Kansas was in between decisions on defense as all five Nova players can create their own shots off the bounce. They were so indecisive, that it looked like Nova was playing a game of horse.