Another Guard…

[BoilerDaddy]

Bonefish tends to live in the “next great player” world. The guy you don’t know and have never seen play is “obviously” better than the guys currently on the roster. Why? Because we’ve seen the current guy make mistakes, miss shots, and fumble passes. That mystery guy in the transfer portal doesn’t have those flaws, at least in his mind. We’ve chewed on him before about this tendency, but people struggle to change (me too!).

Agree. I can’t believe that fans can’t see how good we have it with Purdue’s guards right now. I would take Ivey and IT over any other backcourt in the conference without hesitation.

The issues that Purdue had will be press will be addressed and I am certainly not worried about IT having to be on the bench when he took a bad fall and could barely run.

 

[SIBoiler2]

Bonefish tends to live in the “next great player” world. The guy you don’t know and have never seen play is “obviously” better than the guys currently on the roster. Why? Because we’ve seen the current guy make mistakes, miss shots, and fumble passes. That mystery guy in the transfer portal doesn’t have those flaws, at least in his mind. We’ve chewed on him before about this tendency, but people struggle to change (me too!).

Ahhh, buy you fail to see the connection between carping and harping. Both are bottom feeders that continually seek something good to sustain them. Our bonefish continually seeks the unseen 6☆ recruit with infinite major offers. A whole team of none-and-dones that will stay for four years.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

I’ve been harping on this issue forever now

FIFY

 

[bullsfan321]

Hey guys - new here but Purdue fan since the '90s.

The one thing I will say about this seasons roster construction is that there is a lack of pure ballhandlers. Sasha and Furst are great but are much different players at their given position then say Mathias/Hummel. Fortunately in the grand scheme of things it's an issue that can be overcome pretty easily compared to other flaws.

Some posters have already hit the nail on the head with regard to pressure defense. Depending on the press 2 out of Ivey, Stefanovic and Furst (or any other combo) have to make themselves available as outlets. That being said the decision making has to be better from Hunter and Ivey. On one possession Ivey dribbled into a double team in front of half line with Hunter right behind him. A pass back to Hunter and then a swing to Sasha and the press is broken with ease. They just need to remember that the ball moves quicker than the man and press issues should be resolved by midseason.

 

[bonefish1]

Agree. I can’t believe that fans can’t see how good we have it with Purdue’s guards right now. I would take Ivey and IT over any other backcourt in the conference without hesitation.

The issues that Purdue had will be press will be addressed and I am certainly not worried about IT having to be on the bench when he took a bad fall and could barely run.

Anyone in America would take Ivey and (name whoever you want) as a backcourt.

 

[Level 42]

We're likely going to be the number one team in the country and people are whining about this? Really? Have none of you paid attention to how teams under Painter get better as the season goes? Do you really think that he isn't going to address issues as they come up?

I read these threads and am so very glad not one of us is coaching this team as we would likely be winless. You want to know why one player is playing over another? Grab your jewels and call in to the CMP show and ask.

 

[BoilerAndy]

Ahhh, buy you fail to see the connection between carping and harping. Both are bottom feeders that continually seek something good to sustain them. Our bonefish continually seeks the unseen 6☆ recruit with infinite major offers. A whole team of none-and-dones that will stay for four years.

Yes, either could apply.

Harping is nagging, as done by a harpy. A harpy is a nagging, ill-tempered woman. Harpy originated as a loathsome, pesky monster from Greek mythology.

Carping is complaining or nagging criticism. Not sure where the word originated, but a carp is a bottom-feeding fish generally considered to be undesirable.

If bonefish says he is harping (or carping), then for once I'll take him at his word.

 

[GoldandBlackintheSaddleAgain]

I’ve been harping on this issue of 2 years now and is why I was so disappointed Painter didn’t get someone from the portal. It’s also why I wasn’t crazy about the Braden Smith signing.

Ya still thinking Shaka?

 

[bonefish1]

Ya still thinking Shaka?

as a recruiter

 

[IUhaterade]

Bonefish tends to live in the “next great player” world. The guy you don’t know and have never seen play is “obviously” better than the guys currently on the roster. Why? Because we’ve seen the current guy make mistakes, miss shots, and fumble passes. That mystery guy in the transfer portal doesn’t have those flaws, at least in his mind. We’ve chewed on him before about this tendency, but people struggle to change (me too!).

What I think is funny about him is he is constantly lamenting the fact that Purdue does not have this superstar guard type that maybe 5 teams in the entire country have. Now he wants 2 of them on our team when we have very rarely had one.

Now- with our increased standing in the nation- it may very well be that getting these guys will become more of the norm- I certainly hope so. But I feel like constantly complaining about the lack of a player that 95% of the team in D1 do not even have 1 of is a bit silly.

 

[bonefish1]

We're likely going to be the number one team in the country and people are whining about this? Really? Have none of you paid attention to how teams under Painter get better as the season goes? Do you really think that he isn't going to address issues as they come up?

I read these threads and am so very glad not one of us is coaching this team as we would likely be winless. You want to know why one player is playing over another? Grab your jewels and call in to the CMP show and ask.

The original question was about this teams weakness. If you don't think they have one, that's OK.

 

[bonefish1]

What I think is funny about him is he is constantly lamenting the fact that Purdue does not have this superstar guard type that maybe 5 teams in the entire country have. Now he wants 2 of them on our team when we have very rarely had one.

Now- with our increased standing in the nation- it may very well be that getting these guys will become more of the norm- I certainly hope so. But I feel like constantly complaining about the lack of a player that 95% of the team in D1 do not even have 1 of is a bit silly.

We've got the guy I wanted (Ivey) and have another coming in Colvin. What we don't have is a solid #2 scoring guard who can take over and do some things Ivey does (dribble penetrate, break down the D, get into the lane, finish) but obviously not at the Ivey level. We've got guards who can shoot the 3 well but no one who's going to create problems for the D off the bounce.

 

[Level 42]

We've got the guy I wanted (Ivey) and have another coming in Colvin. What we don't have is a solid #2 scoring guard who can take over and do some things Ivey does (dribble penetrate, break down the D, get into the lane, finish) but obviously not at the Ivey level. We've got guards who can shoot the 3 well but no one who's going to create problems for the D off the bounce.

We have players that fit Painter's system and what he thinks we need and that is all that matters.

 

[bonefish1]

We have players that fit Painter's system and what he thinks we need and that is all that matters.

Well, with all due respect, and hopefully that changes this year with a FF and NC, but in 17 yrs, Painter hasn't recruited at a level better than a single Elite 8 appearance.
That being said, I think he's improved his recruiting a lot over the last 4-5 years

 

[Level 42]

Well, with all due respect, and hopefully that changes this year with a FF and NC, but in 17 yrs, Painter hasn't recruited at a level better than a single Elite 8 appearance.
That being said, I think he's improved his recruiting a lot over the last 4-5 years

Carsen Edwards enters the chat. We were a made free throw or box out and rebound away from one not long ago. So your statement about your timetable doesn't really apply especially with us just being ranked #1 for the first time in school history. The timeframe for everything else, as I said, is grossly irrelevant.

Some luck, which is needed in the tourney too, along with less injuries early on and he likely gets a FF or NT. Again he gets the players that fit his system and he sees fit and it's working just fine.

 

[mathboy]

Well, with all due respect, and hopefully that changes this year with a FF and NC, but in 17 yrs, Painter hasn't recruited at a level better than a single Elite 8 appearance.
That being said, I think he's improved his recruiting a lot over the last 4-5 years

The problem is that you are measuring his performance with a rubber ruler. It's way too imprecise to be useful. All kinds of things completely unrelated to the coach or the talent he recruits determine the level teams reach in the NCAA's. Butler did not have FF talent but they got there anyway, twice, through some really strange machinations of matchups and upsets.

Purdue has had probably 2-3 teams that were good enough but weird stuff happens, and not just to us. I will never forget the time when MSU was ranked in the top 4, with high level recruits, a coach that has won it all, and had the player of the year in some dude named Valentine. They got blown out in the first game by a nobody. Rubber ruler dude.

 

[BoilerAndy]

Well, with all due respect, and hopefully that changes this year with a FF and NC, but in 17 yrs, Painter hasn't recruited at a level better than a single Elite 8 appearance.
That being said, I think he's improved his recruiting a lot over the last 4-5 years

There are probably 5 teams in college basketball that had everything you are asking for in recruiting, but did not get to the Final Four. So by your standards, it wasn't Final Four or championship level recruiting.

 

[MLB007]

Yes, either could apply.

Harping is nagging, as done by a harpy. A harpy is a nagging, ill-tempered woman. Harpy originated as a loathsome, pesky monster from Greek mythology.

Carping is complaining or nagging criticism. Not sure where the word originated, but a carp is a bottom-feeding fish generally considered to be undesirable.

If bonefish says he is harping (or carping), then for once I'll take him at his word.

In 1653 Izaak Walton wrote in The Compleat Angler, "The Carp is the queen of rivers; a stately, a good, and a very subtle fish; that was not at first bred, nor hath been long in England, but is now naturalised."

Carp are variable in terms of angling value.

• In Europe, even when not fished for food, they are eagerly sought by anglers, being considered highly prized coarse fish that are difficult to hook.[32] The UK has a thriving carp angling market. It is the fastest growing angling market in the UK, and has spawned a number of specialised carp angling publications such as Carpology,[33] Advanced carp fishing, Carpworld and Total Carp, and informative carp angling web sites, such as The Carp Plaice.[34]
• In the United States, carp are also classified as a rough fish, as well as a damaging naturalized exotic species, but with sporting qualities. Carp have long suffered from a poor reputation in the United States as undesirable for angling or for the table, especially since they are typically an invasive species out-competing more desirable local game fish. Nonetheless, many states' departments of natural resources are beginning to view the carp as an angling fish instead of a maligned pest. Groups such as Wild Carp Companies,[35] American Carp Society,[36] and the Carp Anglers Group[37] promote the sport and work with fisheries departments to organize events to introduce and expose others to the unique opportunity the carp offers freshwater anglers.

 

[bonefish1]

Carsen Edwards enters the chat. We were a made free throw or box out and rebound away from one not long ago. So your statement about your timetable doesn't really apply especially with us just being ranked #1 for the first time in school history. The timeframe for everything else, as I said, is grossly irrelevant.

Some luck, which is needed in the tourney too, along with less injuries early on and he likely gets a FF or NT. Again he gets the players that fit his system and he sees fit and it's working just fine.

Well, it just depends on what someone's expectations are. You and I have different expectations for the program. Painter very well be building a program that can make multiple FF runs. But, the fact remains, in 17 years, he hasn't done it yet. And yes, you need some luck and to avoid injuries, but that's that same for every team.

You keep mentioning players who fit his system. Well, from a NCAA tourney success perspective, either somethings wrong with his system or the players he's getting aren't good enough.
But, like I said, he's make some nice improvements in recruiting, we'll see what happens.

But I still think he needs to find another G in the portal.

 

[bonefish1]

The problem is that you are measuring his performance with a rubber ruler. It's way too imprecise to be useful. All kinds of things completely unrelated to the coach or the talent he recruits determine the level teams reach in the NCAA's. Butler did not have FF talent but they got there anyway, twice, through some really strange machinations of matchups and upsets.

Purdue has had probably 2-3 teams that were good enough but weird stuff happens, and not just to us. I will never forget the time when MSU was ranked in the top 4, with high level recruits, a coach that has won it all, and had the player of the year in some dude named Valentine. They got blown out in the first game by a nobody. Rubber ruler dude.

Butler doing it twice wasn't a fluke. Once maybe, but not twice. That was all Brad Stevens.

As for MSU, you're talking about a team that's been to 7 FF since 2000. Sure, their going to get to the tourney so often that they lay an egg now and then, but they also get to the FF on avg every 3 years.

 

[bonefish1]

There are probably 5 teams in college basketball that had everything you are asking for in recruiting, but did not get to the Final Four. So by your standards, it wasn't Final Four or championship level recruiting.

No team will get then every year. But, teams can recruit at a level where the FF is a realistic goal every year.

 

[IUhaterade]

Butler doing it twice wasn't a fluke. Once maybe, but not twice. That was all Brad Stevens.

As for MSU, you're talking about a team that's been to 7 FF since 2000. Sure, their going to get to the tourney so often that they lay an egg now and then, but they also get to the FF on avg every 3 years.

ALL brad stevens? Even though most of those players were not Brad Stevens recruits? I do not think Stevens deserves all of the credit.

 

[Level 42]

But, the fact remains, in 17 years, he hasn't done it yet.

@mathboy summed up this whole thing very well so I am not going to add to it, however your line here is still greatly irrelevant.

It also has zero to do with expectations nor your timetable as I said and is just reality. Your timeframe only matters to you and has no impact on anything. Plus the past is not indicative of the future, just look at iu as an example.

 

[bonefish1]

@mathboy summed up this whole thing very well so I am not going to add to it, however your line here is still greatly irrelevant.

It also has zero to do with expectations nor your timetable as I said and is just reality. Your timeframe only matters to you and has no impact on anything. Plus the past is not indicative of the future, just look at iu as an example.

What's your timeframe?

Do you think Painter should get to coach at Purdue for as long as he wants, regardless of whether he makes a FF or wins a NC?

 

[Level 42]

What's your timeframe?

Do you think Painter should get to coach at Purdue for as long as he wants, regardless of whether he makes a FF or wins a NC?

Yep because he has been successful regardless. So as long as we don't tank the season multiple times in a row, then we are in a good place. He is an excellent coach so the 'need' for a FF or NT is only for the fans and without a doubt he wants those things as well. But it ultimately is just for some sort of 'bragging rights' because the next season it all starts over so is short lived.

I would much rather have a coach that puts us in a position to win as many games possible every season and if that ends with a FF or NT, all the better. If not, don't really care because it all just becomes forum banter at that point. And consistently getting us to a sweet 16 or elite 8 means we are one of the top programs in the country year in and year out. And is something very few schools ever see.

You don't get rid of a coach that is doing all of that just simply because he hasn't gotten a FF or NT on your timetable. Especially when there is a mountain of evidence that shows he is building and recruiting at a high level which will set us up to be very good for a long time. All we need now is some luck in March.

 

[BoilerAndy]

In 1653 Izaak Walton wrote in The Compleat Angler, "The Carp is the queen of rivers; a stately, a good, and a very subtle fish; that was not at first bred, nor hath been long in England, but is now naturalised."

Carp are variable in terms of angling value.

• In Europe, even when not fished for food, they are eagerly sought by anglers, being considered highly prized coarse fish that are difficult to hook.[32] The UK has a thriving carp angling market. It is the fastest growing angling market in the UK, and has spawned a number of specialised carp angling publications such as Carpology,[33] Advanced carp fishing, Carpworld and Total Carp, and informative carp angling web sites, such as The Carp Plaice.[34]
• In the United States, carp are also classified as a rough fish, as well as a damaging naturalized exotic species, but with sporting qualities. Carp have long suffered from a poor reputation in the United States as undesirable for angling or for the table, especially since they are typically an invasive species out-competing more desirable local game fish. Nonetheless, many states' departments of natural resources are beginning to view the carp as an angling fish instead of a maligned pest. Groups such as Wild Carp Companies,[35] American Carp Society,[36] and the Carp Anglers Group[37] promote the sport and work with fisheries departments to organize events to introduce and expose others to the unique opportunity the carp offers freshwater anglers.

Carp are very fatty fish causing them to accumulate toxic and carcenogenic pollutants such as heavy metals and organic compounds that concentrate in the bottoms of lakes and waterways. Even though you could probably raise them in a fish farm, ala catfish, I have yet to see carp offered on any restaurant menu anywhere.

While carp are fun sport to catch, partly because they can grow to be so large, they are generally undesirable (even hated) by sports fisherman because they eat the eggs of more desirable fish. They are an invasive species, as you point out, and can damage ecosystems by uprooting the native water plants and causing normally clear water to go murky. For many fishermen I know, if they catch a carp, they will kill it or throw it up on the bank to die.

Now a harpy is a completely different story. Very few people would eat one.

 

[BoilerAndy]

What's your timeframe?

Do you think Painter should get to coach at Purdue for as long as he wants, regardless of whether he makes a FF or wins a NC?

Yes. Because you must replace him with someone who you could guarantee will win it all. Can you guarantee that? Who is it? Shaka?

And there is just something wrong the logic that says, because Purdue did not go to the Final Four, they lacked the talent to reach the Final Four. The four teams who make it every year obviously had the talent. But was that the end of the story? There was no other team in all of college basketball with the talent to get to the Final Four?

There are no scientific laws or mathematical rules that say,
Team A made it, therefore they had the talent.
Team B didn't make it, therefore they didn't have the talent.

That would mean if the same 64 teams played the tournament 10 times, the same 4 teams would always finish in the Final Four and would end with the same champion and runner-up.

 

[IUhaterade]

Carp are very fatty fish causing them to accumulate toxic and carcenogenic pollutants such as heavy metals and organic compounds that concentrate in the bottoms of lakes and waterways. Even though you could probably raise them in a fish farm, ala catfish, I have yet to see carp offered on any restaurant menu anywhere.

While carp are fun sport to catch, partly because they can grow to be so large, they are generally undesirable (even hated) by sports fisherman because they eat the eggs of more desirable fish. They are an invasive species, as you point out, and can damage ecosystems by uprooting the native water plants and causing normally clear water to go murky. For many fishermen I know, if they catch a carp, they will kill it or throw it up on the bank to die.

Now a harpy is a completely different story. Very few people would eat one.

Generally undesirable yes, but I have had carp patties before that tasted pretty delicious. They are bit like catfish in the way that the knowledge of how to properly clean them is the difference between something delicious and something completely disgusting.

While what you say about uprooting native plants is true, many people actually stock certain ponds and quarries with carp because they eat up so much unwanted invasive plants that it makes the pond look much nicer-especially grass carp. Now... Asian Crap on the other hand.... supposedly those are eaten over in Asia as well... but that species is the predominant invasive species that has been wrecking American waterways for years now.

 

[BoilerAndy]

Generally undesirable yes, but I have had carp patties before that tasted pretty delicious. They are bit like catfish in the way that the knowledge of how to properly clean them is the difference between something delicious and something completely disgusting.

While what you say about uprooting native plants is true, many people actually stock certain ponds and quarries with carp because they eat up so much unwanted invasive plants that it makes the pond look much nicer-especially grass carp. Now... Asian Crap on the other hand.... supposedly those are eaten over in Asia as well... but that species is the predominant invasive species that has been wrecking American waterways for years now.

I don't know if I have ever seen a grass carp, but I understand that they do not eat fish eggs. As a kid I used to fish in the creek near my home. When I would fish the bottom for catfish, I was more likely to catch a carp or sucker. From an edibility standpoint, both have similar reputations. The first time I brought home a carp to fix for my dinner, my very avid fisherman dad said, "You don't want to eat that." He obviously didn't know the proper preparation technique.

 

[IUhaterade]

I don't know if I have ever seen a grass carp, but I understand that they do not eat fish eggs. As a kid I used to fish in the creek near my home. When I would fish the bottom for catfish, I was more likely to catch a carp or sucker. From an edibility standpoint, both have similar reputations. The first time I brought home a carp to fix for my dinner, my very avid fisherman dad said, "You don't want to eat that." He obviously didn't know the proper preparation technique.

It's kind of a pain to prepare carp and is generally not worth the effort when so many better fish are pulled from the same lakes and rivers. If that is all you had to eat though- you'd learn to make it tasty. I certainly would never choose if over a good Walleye, Crappie, Blue Gill and yes- catfish.

Grass carp get HUGE. They can almost be mistaken for freshwater dolphins lol

 

[Purdue Grad in Texas]

It's kind of a pain to prepare carp and is generally not worth the effort when so many better fish are pulled from the same lakes and rivers. If that is all you had to eat though- you'd learn to make it tasty. I certainly would never choose if over a good Walleye, Crappie, Blue Gill and yes- catfish.

Grass carp get HUGE. They can almost be mistaken for freshwater dolphins lol

Ha-ha....Yeah - I've seen some grass carps in water hazards (oh....sorry....penalty areas) as lakes and ponds on a couple of golf courses....to the point of......"What the hell is THAT?"

 

[Purdue85]

Well, it just depends on what someone's expectations are. You and I have different expectations for the program. Painter very well be building a program that can make multiple FF runs. But, the fact remains, in 17 years, he hasn't done it yet. And yes, you need some luck and to avoid injuries, but that's that same for every team.

You keep mentioning players who fit his system. Well, from a NCAA tourney success perspective, either somethings wrong with his system or the players he's getting aren't good enough.
But, like I said, he's make some nice improvements in recruiting, we'll see what happens.

But I still think he needs to find another G in the portal.

over the last 3 years, what guard(s) who were in the portal would have taken us to the Final Four?

 

[mathboy]

Butler doing it twice wasn't a fluke. Once maybe, but not twice. That was all Brad Stevens.

As for MSU, you're talking about a team that's been to 7 FF since 2000. Sure, their going to get to the tourney so often that they lay an egg now and then, but they also get to the FF on avg every 3 years.

If you had paid attention to how those brackets broke, you would see the enormous amount of pure random luck that was involved in Butler taking their unranked undersized team to the FF.

 

[mathboy]

What's your timeframe?

Do you think Painter should get to coach at Purdue for as long as he wants, regardless of whether he makes a FF or wins a NC?

Silly question. Right now Painter has the program on an upward trajectory, probably a better place than almost any other school in the country. We are going in the right direction, and doing it by the rules. You got to get off this anti-Painter train. It's the wrong year to ride it.

 

[bonefish1]

over the last 3 years, what guard(s) who were in the portal would have taken us to the Final Four?

Don’t know. Not my job.
But, Minny had a guy who was a difference-maker enter the portal. I think PSU had a similar guy go in.
Both would have been upgrades from our PGs.

Next year, the Gs will be Newman, Loyer, IT, Smith, Sasha?
Who’s the differencemaker with the ball in his hands in that group?
Painter will need to find that guy in the portal.

 

[Mandeville LA]

The day Purdue becomes number 1 in the country and all we can talk about is how Painter can't get it done?

 

[bonefish1]

Silly question. Right now Painter has the program on an upward trajectory, probably a better place than almost any other school in the country. We are going in the right direction, and doing it by the rules. You got to get off this anti-Painter train. It's the wrong year to ride it.

Not anti-Painter. I think he’s doing a great job.
But, stating facts doesn’t mean I don’t like and support him. He’s definitely on a roll.

 

[Purdue85]

Don’t know. Not my job.
But, Minny had a guy who was a difference-maker enter the portal. I think PSU had a similar guy go in.
Both would have been upgrades from our PGs.

Next year, the Gs will be Newman, Loyer, IT, Smith, Sasha?
Who’s the differencemaker with the ball in his hands in that group?
Painter will need to find that guy in the portal.

it doesn't have to be 'your job'.

So, now we're going to take Minny's or PSU's cast off and ride them to a FF.

You're claiming the portal is our key to getting a guard to take us to the FF. My question was pretty straightforward and pretty easy: which guard from the portal would have been that guard to take us to the FF?

(HINT: if one hasn't been in the portal over the past few years, it's unreasonable to believe one will magically appear, then would say "yes" to an offer from Purdue over every other program/suitor.)

 

[BoilerAndy]

Don’t know. Not my job.
But, Minny had a guy who was a difference-maker enter the portal. I think PSU had a similar guy go in.
Both would have been upgrades from our PGs.

Next year, the Gs will be Newman, Loyer, IT, Smith, Sasha?
Who’s the differencemaker with the ball in his hands in that group?
Painter will need to find that guy in the portal.

Not your job to say who will work, but it's your job to say who won't. Even to include next year with players who haven't finished their senior year in HS. This has sunk to a level below silliness. Derangement.

 

[BoilerAndy]

Not anti-Painter. I think he’s doing a great job.
But, stating facts doesn’t mean I don’t like and support him. He’s definitely on a roll.

You continue to struggle with the delusion that your opinion is a fact. It's clear that you can't help it, but try.