OT: George Floyd

[gcb12]

I didn't say it proved systemic racism. What I said was that your statement doesn't somehow disprove systemic racism.

While the majority probably agrees it was racially motivated, the majority of this country skews "liberal" or "Democratic", too. That doesn't mean systemic racism doesn't exist, because when - say - 45% of the country thinks one way, that can still be systemic. If it were an 80 or 90% majority, then yeah.

But you see in this thread alone that while a "majority" agrees it was racially motivated, there's still a large minority that does not. In such a situation, you can have systemic racism, especially in areas where people of that mindset are largely in power.

The bottom line is, we've made progress since the 1800s and 1960s, but there are still elements of this society aligned to oppress. And in some cases, we're simply dealing with the repercussions of two centuries of oppression.

E.g. in some areas of the south where educational opportunities weren't equal for a century, we're only one generation removed from active educational oppression of poor black people. The children of those people who were going to school in substandard conditions are just now having their own children... and that affect is generational. That is not something that is fixed like flipping a light switch.

You used the term systematic racism in your initial reply to my question, which I took to mean you believed that it did in fact exist. Since you used that term I wanted your perspective as to why you believe it exists. I can’t disprove something that I don’t believe exists in the first place.

At the end of the day, I think we are in agreement that a problem exists. We are not in agreement about the severity of that problem. I think the majority of White people and cops are good to and cordial with those of a different race and you seem to disagree with that.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

You used the term systematic racism in your initial reply to my question, which I took to mean you believed that it did in fact exist. Since you used that term I wanted your perspective as to why you believe it exists. I can’t disprove something that I don’t believe exists in the first place.

At the end of the day, I think we are in agreement that a problem exists. We are not in agreement about the severity of that problem. I think the majority of White people and cops are good to and cordial with those of a different race and you seem to disagree with that.

I think a majority of white people don’t understand how many factors are aligned against the poor, and in particular the poor minorities. It’s evident by the “pull yourself up by the bootstraps!” comments and denial of a problem with police by white people. Those are easy thing to say when you’re educated, have means, and didn’t grow up around gangs and drugs and disenfranchised people of the same race who have given up on playing along with a system they perceive actively oppresses them.

Black people are afraid of police interactions. There are countless anecdotes of black people being detained for being perceived in the wrong place (e.g. black college professor wearing a beanie in winter walking across the street from a convenience store that was just robbed gets detained for an hour because the suspect also happened to be a black man who wore a beanie). Every black person I know has a “DWB” story. Do we simply not believe all of them? If so, then the majority thinks an entire race is lying about mistreatment - you bet, that’s systemic racism too.

You can believe that most white people are cordial and polite to black people, and that’s good. But saying “hello” to the black man in the street doesn’t make you not a racist.

The real problem is most of us don’t want to be truly introspective about this because we know we won’t like what we see.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

I think a majority of white people don’t understand how many factors are aligned against the poor, and in particular the poor minorities. It’s evident by the “pull yourself up by the bootstraps!” comments and denial of a problem with police by white people. Those are easy thing to say when you’re educated, have means, and didn’t grow up around gangs and drugs and disenfranchised people of the same race who have given up on playing along with a system they perceive actively oppresses them.

Black people are afraid of police interactions. There are countless anecdotes of black people being detained for being perceived in the wrong place (e.g. black college professor wearing a beanie in winter walking across the street from a convenience store that was just robbed gets detained for an hour because the suspect also happened to be a black man who wore a beanie). Every black person I know has a “DWB” story. Do we simply not believe all of them? If so, then the majority thinks an entire race is lying about mistreatment - you bet, that’s systemic racism too.

You can believe that most white people are cordial and polite to black people, and that’s good. But saying “hello” to the black man in the street doesn’t make you not a racist.

The real problem is most of us don’t want to be truly introspective about this because we know we won’t like what we see.

If race is the problem, then just have the demographics of each police precinct match the demographics of the community, as closely as possible. It might not fix everything but it would at least remove race from the equation.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

If race is the problem, then just have the demographics of each police precinct match the demographics of the community, as closely as possible. It might not fix everything but it would at least remove race from the equation.

That doesn’t fix the problem, which is that people treat other people differently because of their skin color. Next I guess we can just let them have their own restrooms and seats on the bus, or round them all up into certain neighborhoods and schools to help make sure race isn’t part of the problem.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

That doesn’t fix the problem, which is that people treat other people differently because of their skin color. Next I guess we can just let them have their own restrooms and seats on the bus, or round them all up into certain neighborhoods and schools to help make sure race isn’t part of the problem.

Weak strawman game... again.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

Weak strawman game... again.

When you acknowledge the actual problem, I’ll start taking you seriously. Until then, you can expect more obvious BS like that in response to your BS. Ball is in your court.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

When you acknowledge the actual problem, I’ll start taking you seriously. Until then, you can expect more obvious BS like that. Ball is in your court.

You say the problem is racist cops, and that black communities don’t trust white cops. And if that’s true, why wouldn’t we want to get them out of black neighborhoods?

 

[TopSecretBoiler]

That doesn’t fix the problem, which is that people treat other people differently because of their skin color. Next I guess we can just let them have their own restrooms and seats on the bus, or round them all up into certain neighborhoods and schools to help make sure race isn’t part of the problem.

please...that's practically the new democrat mantra.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

You say the problem is racist cops, and that black communities don’t trust white cops. And if that’s true, why wouldn’t we want to get them out of black neighborhoods?

I say the problem is racist white people who don’t even recognize their own biases. Not just cops. All of us.

White people who hold their children’s hand a little tighter when walking past a tall black man. White people who call the cops because a black man is walking down their street. White men who jump in pickup trucks with shotguns to chase a black man who was running through their neighborhood and stopped at a house under construction. White women who call the police - the Police! - because she thinks someone is using the wrong kind of grill in a park. White women who call 911 and claim a black man is threatening her life because an Ivy League educated bird watcher who happens to be black asks her to leash her dog in Central Park (note: he didn’t call the cops on her.) White people who call the police any time a black person makes them feel uncomfortable just by existing.

No sir, thinking it’s just the cops is where you and I disagree and why your idea is ridiculous.

 

[TwinDegrees2]

I say the problem is racist white people who don’t even recognize their own biases. Not just cops. All of us.

White people who hold their children’s hand a little tighter when walking past a tall black man. White people who call the cops because a black man is walking down their street. White men who jump in pickup trucks with shotguns to chase a black man who was running through their neighborhood and stopped at a house under construction. White women who call the police - the Police! - because she thinks someone is using the wrong kind of grill in a park. White women who call 911 and claim a black man is threatening her life because an Ivy League educated bird watcher who happens to be black asks her to leash her dog in Central Park (note: he didn’t call the cops on her.) White people who call the police any time a black person makes them feel uncomfortable just by existing.

No sir, thinking it’s just the cops is where you and I disagree and why your idea is ridiculous.

Could some AA's be racist too? Asking for the Easter Bunny.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

Could some AA's be racist too? Asking for the Easter Bunny.

Of course. Doesn’t change a thing about you and me.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

I say the problem is racist white people who don’t even recognize their own biases. Not just cops. All of us.

White people who hold their children’s hand a little tighter when walking past a tall black man. White people who call the cops because a black man is walking down their street. White men who jump in pickup trucks with shotguns to chase a black man who was running through their neighborhood and stopped at a house under construction. White women who call the police - the Police! - because she thinks someone is using the wrong kind of grill in a park. White women who call 911 and claim a black man is threatening her life because an Ivy League educated bird watcher who happens to be black asks her to leash her dog in Central Park (note: he didn’t call the cops on her.) White people who call the police any time a black person makes them feel uncomfortable just by existing.

No sir, thinking it’s just the cops is where you and I disagree and why your idea is ridiculous.

Quit projecting your feelings onto others.

Why is my idea ridiculous, exactly?

 

[gr8indoorsman]

Quit projecting your feelings onto others.

Why is my idea ridiculous, exactly?

If you can honestly look at yourself and say you don't see any skin color and don't even subconsciously think or treat other people differently, then I commend you and should not have this conversation with you. Instead, I should try to be just like you. Kudos, New Pal, you're the man! If we could all just be completely bias-free like you, we won't have problems. Round of applause!

 

[New Pal Boiler]

If you can honestly look at yourself and say you don't see any skin color and don't even subconsciously think or treat other people differently, then I commend you and should not have this conversation with you. Instead, I should try to be just like you. Kudos, New Pal, you're the man! If we could all just be completely bias-free like you, we won't have problems. Round of applause!

Why is my idea ridiculous? You keep failing to answer the question.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

Why is my idea ridiculous? You keep failing to answer the question.

I did answer: the problem isn’t just with cops. The killing of black men by police is a single symptom of a broader issue, and police aren’t always called to address black men in black neighborhoods. Your solution would amount to: “Yes, this is New Pal Boiler, and I see a black man in my neighborhood being black. I’d like a black cop to come handle this black man in my white neighborhood, please.”

Other than that, it’s completely impractical as we previously discussed. So, we can be done discussing this idiotic and disingenuous “idea” now.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

I did answer: the problem isn’t just with cops. The killing of black men by police is a single symptom of a broader issue, and police aren’t always called to address black men in black neighborhoods. Your solution would amount to: “Yes, this is New Pal Boiler, and I see a black man in my neighborhood being black. I’d like a black cop to come handle this black man in my white neighborhood, please.”

Other than that, it’s completely impractical as we previously discussed. So, we can be done discussing this idiotic and disingenuous “idea” now.

That’s not at all what I said. I don’t care who the cops are in my neighborhood, because they don’t have to do much of anything, other than set speed traps and pull over a few DUIs on weekends.

Once again, what I said was: why not get white cops out of predominantly minority neighborhoods, in order to reduce the number of these white cop/minority suspect incidents. Those are the ones that create viral social media events, and in turn, incite protests, and then riots. Recruit more minority cops and let them take the lead in policing these neighborhoods. No one has yet explained why that would be a bad idea.

 

[hunkgolden]

New video shows a bit of a struggle with Floyd in the back of the police car. One police officer on either side of the car in some sort of a struggle with him. Does anyone know if MPD has body-cams? Interesting that he was in the back of the police car - presumably handcuffed already. Police generally only go back into the car and struggle with someone if that person is banging their head against the window or kicking the window. They obviously removed him from the car after this. That probably means they were going to hog tie him to keep him from kicking the windows out.

 

[TwinDegrees2]

New video shows a bit of a struggle with Floyd in the back of the police car. One police officer on either side of the car in some sort of a struggle with him. Does anyone know if MPD has body-cams? Interesting that he was in the back of the police car - presumably handcuffed already. Police generally only go back into the car and struggle with someone if that person is banging their head against the window or kicking the window. They obviously removed him from the car after this. That probably means they were going to hog tie him to keep him from kicking the windows out.

Yeah, I wondered the same thing as they started off with him, presumably to a police station. And then they stopped and it got ugly. Another thing I thought about was there bad blood between Floyd and the cop on his neck since they worked off duty as security at the same place.

I wouldn't be a cop without a body cam ever.

 

[hunkgolden]

I wouldn't be a cop without a body cam ever.

I'm surprised all police departments don't have them. If the officer in the Michael Brown situation had one it would've saved this country a ton of grief.

 

[TwinDegrees2]

Yeah, I wondered the same thing as they started off with him, presumably to a police station. And then they stopped and it got ugly. Another thing I thought about was there bad blood between Floyd and the cop on his neck since they worked off duty as security at the same place.

 

[gleap1969]

I'm surprised all police departments don't have them. If the officer in the Michael Brown situation had one it would've saved this country a ton of grief.

Darren Wilson would have had to turn his camera on (if he were wearing one, which he wasn't). Too many "forget" to activate theirs. An article for your edification: https://thecrimereport.org/2019/05/29/the-body-cam-dilemma-should-cops-ever-push-the-off-button/

 

[BoilerUpThenHammerDown]

That’s not at all what I said. I don’t care who the cops are in my neighborhood, because they don’t have to do much of anything, other than set speed traps and pull over a few DUIs on weekends.

Once again, what I said was: why not get white cops out of predominantly minority neighborhoods, in order to reduce the number of these white cop/minority suspect incidents. Those are the ones that create viral social media events, and in turn, incite protests, and then riots. Recruit more minority cops and let them take the lead in policing these neighborhoods. No one has yet explained why that would be a bad idea.

The answer is simple, there are not enough minority cops and what you are proposing is segregation

 

[New Pal Boiler]

The answer is simple, there are not enough minority cops and what you are proposing is segregation

I’m not proposing segregation.

As I said, the cops in my area can be purple or pink with polka dots for all I care: they don’t have to do anything anyway. I’m merely asking if it would make sense to put more minority cops in minority neighborhoods, and of course you would have to recruit more minority cops. Duh.

 

[BoilerUpThenHammerDown]

I’m not proposing segregation.

As I said, the cops in my area can be purple or pink with polka dots for all I care: they don’t have to do anything anyway. I’m merely asking if it would make sense to put more minority cops in minority neighborhoods, and of course you would have to recruit more minority cops. Duh.

I’m not proposing segregation.

As I said, the cops in my area can be purple or pink with polka dots for all I care: they don’t have to do anything anyway. I’m merely asking if it would make sense to put more minority cops in minority neighborhoods, and of course you would have to recruit more minority cops. Duh.

Yes, that's a good idea and something that police around the country are attempting to do. Unfortunately, I think that the demand exceeds the supply

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Yes, that's a good idea and something that police around the country are attempting to do. Unfortunately, I think that the demand exceeds the supply

Well they need to try harder. Failure is not an option.

 

[hunkgolden]

I’m merely asking if it would make sense to put more minority cops in minority neighborhoods...

Here's your answer: https://www.npr.org/sections/codesw...ng-more-black-officers-reduce-police-violence

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Here's your answer: https://www.npr.org/sections/codesw...ng-more-black-officers-reduce-police-violence

So as they get to at least 40% black police forces in these communities, violent exchanges go down.

Why wouldn’t that be a goal?

 

[BoilerJS]

Okay, what trike?

2014 Tri-Glide Harley.

 

[TwinDegrees2]

2014 Tri-Glide Harley.

I've thought about one. I sold my Cross Country Vic and bought a Vic Boardwalk which I absolutely love. I don't take week long trips anymore and if I do, I'm likely to take the Vette, but like to get away for two or three days. I do like the Can Am trike a lot. Just because it's different.

 

[BoilerJS]

I've thought about one. I sold my Cross Country Vic and bought a Vic Boardwalk which I absolutely love. I don't take week long trips anymore and if I do, I'm likely to take the Vette, but like to get away for two or three days. I do like the Can Am trike a lot. Just because it's different.

The Vic Trikes are nice. My wife really likes the comfy passenger seat on the Tri-Glide. Even morose than the 2002 Ultra we had.

 

[TopSecretBoiler]

well i just read they upped the charge to murder 2...i think this is a mistake. not because he doesn't deserve it but because philando castile murder cop walked on a murder 2...just sayin