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Let the great COVID experiment begin !

I wholeheartedly agree that the ultimate real tale will not begin to be told for about a month, imho.
Again only imho, What I read into that graph is that people expecting to reopen in the near future are limiting their safeguards in advance of actual openings. If so, it doesn't bode well to the reaction upon actual opening.
Has there been data that gives a good percent of those infected that require hospitalization? I see those infected and deaths, but I thought the biggest concern was too many needing hospital care too quickly and if that is true it seems that number projected with some standard errors would be a better indicator than those infected. Wouldn't we want 100% infected tomorrow if none were hospitalized or the percent hospitalized was very small...an exaggeration..but you get where I'm going.

Without that number ...how much of a rise is too much?
 
I'm in Indiana where we are currently in Stage 2 of 5 which I think I'm okay with especially since they've kept the hardest hit areas at Stage 1 for a bit longer. Seeing just how disgusting the crowds at Menard's, Target, etc have been the past few weekends makes me think this is likely going to spread no matter what.

What I'm nervous about is how quickly they intend to progress to Stage 3 (5/24), Stage 4 (6/14) and the new normal Stage 5 (7/4).

Another disturbing thought that I hope doesn't influence decision makers is that dead people can't vote...

We need a treatment or vaccine ASAP. I want to believe we'll Leronlimab or another treatment by June with the Oxford vaccine starting to deploy in September but deep down I just don't see it happening. Regardless, I plan to keep myself and my family in the Stage1/2 range for as long as we can.
Dead people don't vote? Ever hear of Chicago as just one place. ;)
 
Has there been data that gives a good percent of those infected that require hospitalization? I see those infected and deaths, but I thought the biggest concern was too many needing hospital care too quickly and if that is true it seems that number projected with some standard errors would be a better indicator than those infected. Wouldn't we want 100% infected tomorrow if none were hospitalized or the percent hospitalized was very small...an exaggeration..but you get where I'm going.

Without that number ...how much of a rise is too much?
I am unaware of such statistics being aggregated anywhere, although they may very well be. Of course one other consideration is what is meant by "required" to be hospitalized. I suspect the hospitalization criteria has varied tremendously by both timeframe and locale so as to perhaps be comparing apples to giraffes.
 
Why?
(Actual inquiry, btw)
I hope that is the case but really see no actual reason to think it will be.
I am aware, however, of a currently unreviewed pre- release study indicating the disease-induced herd immunity level for Covid-19 is substantially lower than the classical herd immunity level
Historical records have shown that flu seasons end with warmer weather longer. If this is “some other type of flu” that is man made, that could then be a wrong assumption. We’ve heard Wuhan market and bioweapons, but have been told it “IS NOT” bio weapon. If that is the case, then it is plenty fine to open up and move forward using herd mentality. IMHO, the sooner the better.
 
I clicked that link and it showed the two businessmen from Bakersfield whose video is based on faulty statistical analysis and their desire to restore lost revenue. I closed the window. That video was garbage debunked repeatedly by reputable medical professionals and mathematicians several weeks ago. You going to post “Plandemic” on here next?
No, damn panic, which is apparently your style, not mine. You’ve got to give me high five for that. ^5.
 
Historical records have shown that flu seasons end with warmer weather longer. If this is “some other type of flu” that is man made, that could then be a wrong assumption. We’ve heard Wuhan market and bioweapons, but have been told it “IS NOT” bio weapon. If that is the case, then it is plenty fine to open up and move forward using herd mentality. IMHO, the sooner the better.

If that’s the case then why does the president get tested daily? Why do they require the press to get temperature checks? Your definition of herd immunity is just letting folks get it, right? So then why all the precautions around him, or do you not see the irony in all of that?
 
If that’s the case then why does the president get tested daily? Why do they require the press to get temperature checks? Your definition of herd immunity is just letting folks get it, right? So then why all the precautions around him, or do you not see the irony in all of that?
No irony, he is the Leader of the Free World. No different than if Biden or back in the day of Obama having pre cautions more than the general public. Try again with a better argument.
 
How can anyone CREDIBLY say 80,000 deaths and counting or 5,000,000 cases by the Fall is anything but an unmitigated disaster ! (more deaths in 2-3 months than Vietnam - let that sink in for a second.)

I wonder if your position will change when it affects people you know.
No, it would not change. I’m confident US #’s are both inflated and F’d up. The rest of the world isn’t even close and yet China has 4 times our population. Who is lying? What about Russia and many other countries? Are they all lying or is US testing more finding more false positives? At this stage, I still do not know anyone, I repeat ANYONE that has reported test positive and had all the horrific symptoms that are reputed to be out there. I go out multiple times a week, no masks, no gloves and I’m fine. I’ve been out on the protest lines and I’m fine. This flue has petered out much like most of your arguments. Accept the fact that you can and will be fine. Move Forward and Live!
I was expecting our overflow to have patients by now, but 0 are in the overflow emergency hospital. What does that say? It tells me the problem has subsided and is minimal.

https://wsau.com/news/articles/2020/apr/24/state-fair-park-hospital-sits-empty/1010822/
 
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I am unaware of such statistics being aggregated anywhere, although they may very well be. Of course one other consideration is what is meant by "required" to be hospitalized. I suspect the hospitalization criteria has varied tremendously by both timeframe and locale so as to perhaps be comparing apples to giraffes.
That variation would show up in the standard errors. You would not take a single number such as a usa number if it was available but would have how every many data was available. Those differences create a variation about the slope or relationship between infected and hospitalization. Those differences would +/- about that line. Not much different than when mj79boiler was predicting deaths using roughly +/-1 STD err for his 70 %. The difference you describe in interpretation decreases the accuracy by providing a hi and low range.

Point is, I havent seen that either and it is of value for us to know that.
 
That variation would show up in the standard errors. You would not take a single number such as a usa number if it was available but would have how every many data was available. Those differences create a variation about the slope or relationship between infected and hospitalization. Those differences would +/- about that line. Not much different than when mj79boiler was predicting deaths using roughly +/-1 STD err for his 70 %. The difference you describe in interpretation decreases the accuracy by providing a hi and low range.

Point is, I havent seen that either and it is of value for us to know that.
Think of plotting wt versus ht. As ht goes up wt does generally. There will be difference about every height. That difference will create a std error about that prediction. Now understand I was assuming one sex in that example. Combining male and female would have some overlap in height, but possibly more variation in predicting weight.
 
Cuomo (both of them) admonishes the public about distancing and protocols and neither wear a mask! Irony? # Move Forward and enjoy Life!#

A) If you have a reliable source to backup your Cuomo claim, I’m more than happy to read it because a quick google search doesn’t show anything close to that.
B) My question to you wasn’t about Cuomo
C) Trump doesn’t wear masks either. But gets tested daily. While hammering on reopening the economy. When tests aren’t available. I just find it odd that the man telling you that the cure can’t be worse than the disease gets tested daily. Seems a bit hypocritical to me but I get that’s not your philosophy about it.
 
No, it would not change. I’m confident US #’s are both inflated and F’d up. The rest of the world isn’t even close and yet China has 4 times our population. Who is lying? What about Russia and many other countries? Are they all lying or is US testing more finding more false positives? At this stage, I still do not know anyone, I repeat ANYONE that has reported test positive and had all the horrific symptoms that are reputed to be out there. I go out multiple times a week, no masks, no gloves and I’m fine. I’ve been out on the protest lines and I’m fine. This flue has petered out much like most of your arguments. Accept the fact that you can and will be fine. Move Forward and Live!

What has been interesting to me is the people we all "know" who claim to have or have had this virus. Prince Charles, Tom Hanks, Roy of Siegfried and Roy, John Prine, Idris Elba, Pink, Trudeau's wife, Stephanopoulos, Boris Johnson, Katie Miller and on and on. Do you not believe that any of these people had COVID19? Michael Che on SNL lost his grandmother to Covid19. At least one person on this board said he lost a family member to COVID19. Because you personally, have not gotten this virus it means that others have not? I really don't understand your point? What do you mean by "reputed to be out there" about symptoms? People who have given personal accounts say it is many times worse than the flu - do you not believe them?
 
Think of plotting wt versus ht. As ht goes up wt does generally. There will be difference about every height. That difference will create a std error about that prediction. Now understand I was assuming one sex in that example. Combining male and female would have some overlap in height, but possibly more variation in predicting weight.

 
Historical records have shown that flu seasons end with warmer weather longer. If this is “some other type of flu” that is man made, that could then be a wrong assumption. We’ve heard Wuhan market and bioweapons, but have been told it “IS NOT” bio weapon. If that is the case, then it is plenty fine to open up and move forward using herd mentality. IMHO, the sooner the better.
Wouldn't the reliance on historical records of influenza need be somewhat tempered in that those records demonstrate a February peak and we are now in mid-May with numbers still rising? Additionally, if we rely on historical records of influenza then we must accept that there will be a fall recurrence and that seasonal recurrences will continue in the absence of a vaccine, do we not?
 
I clicked that link and it showed the two businessmen from Bakersfield whose video is based on faulty statistical analysis and their desire to restore lost revenue. I closed the window. That video was garbage debunked repeatedly by reputable medical professionals and mathematicians several weeks ago. You going to post “Plandemic” on here next?

The two CA Dr's had a bias to reopen economy. Those that "debunked" it had a bias to keep stay at home orders in place. Both sides put together biased presentations based on their beliefs.
 
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Not proven yet, but it's quite possible that the small percentage of otherwise younger healthy folks who crump from Covid might have something to do with Galectin.

Hi Tony, I assume you are referencing Galectin 3, associated with Heart failure, etc.. What exactly causes it in our diets?
 
No, it would not change. I’m confident US #’s are both inflated and F’d up. The rest of the world isn’t even close and yet China has 4 times our population. Who is lying? What about Russia and many other countries? Are they all lying or is US testing more finding more false positives? At this stage, I still do not know anyone, I repeat ANYONE that has reported test positive and had all the horrific symptoms that are reputed to be out there. I go out multiple times a week, no masks, no gloves and I’m fine. I’ve been out on the protest lines and I’m fine. This flue has petered out much like most of your arguments. Accept the fact that you can and will be fine. Move Forward and Live!
I was expecting our overflow to have patients by now, but 0 are in the overflow emergency hospital. What does that say? It tells me the problem has subsided and is minimal.

https://wsau.com/news/articles/2020/apr/24/state-fair-park-hospital-sits-empty/1010822/

For the record, I am confident that the U.S. records are fairly accurate or slightly under-reported. Why? because a number of people who die at home or in nursing homes are still not being counted correctly. As for China, they have taken extremely harsh measures to control their outbreak. (even boarded up some people who had it) They are also MUCH more disciplined about their approach than we will ever be. As for Russia, I personally think they are lying. I just saw where 2 doctors flew off a building recently when they tried to speak out - I doubt that they thought they could fly.

As for your experience, consider yourself lucky and stay home. (versus possibly taking a vacation in the south) It may hav "subsided" in your area with the shelter in place-probably because people in Wisconsin are taking it more seriously. However, when things open back up, Chicago's population could impact you in a hurry, as well as summer vacationers.

As for your weak attempt at trying to discredit my arguments, they are tied to numeric predictions which are still coming true. What's inaccurate about me saying we would have 10,000 cases and 3,000 deaths at the end of March, or 1-1.5 million cases and 50,000 deaths in April? Answer: Nothing
When the national numbers have not taken a significant drop in the new cases/day while people are sheltering in place, it's a clear sign the virus is still out there and people like you who think it's over will be surprised when the economy opens back up.
 
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For the record, I am confident that the U.S. records are fairly accurate or slightly under-reported. Why? because a number of people who die at home or in nursing homes are still not being counted correctly. As for China, they have taken extremely harsh measures to control their outbreak. (even boarded up some people who had it) They are also MUCH more disciplined about their approach than we will ever be. As for Russia, I personally think they are lying. I just saw where 2 doctors flew off a building recently when they tried to speak out - I doubt that they thought they could fly.

As for your experience, consider yourself lucky and stay home. (versus possibly taking a vacation in the south) It may hav "subsided" in your area with the shelter in place-probably because people in Wisconsin are taking it more seriously. However, when things open back up, Chicago's population could impact you in a hurry, as well as summer vacationers.

As for your weak attempt at trying to discredit my arguments, they are tied to numeric predictions which are still coming true. What's inaccurate about me saying we would have 10,000 cases and 3,000 deaths at the end of March, or 1-1.5 million cases and 50,000 deaths in April? Answer: Nothing
When the national numbers have not taken a significant drop in the new cases/day while people are sheltering in place, it's a clear sign the virus is still out there and people like you who think it's over will be surprised when the economy opens back up.
lol we had our first day of cases under 20k in two months. that is significant by any standard. stay home if you're scared.
 
Wouldn't the reliance on historical records of influenza need be somewhat tempered in that those records demonstrate a February peak and we are now in mid-May with numbers still rising? Additionally, if we rely on historical records of influenza then we must accept that there will be a fall recurrence and that seasonal recurrences will continue in the absence of a vaccine, do we not?
First, I'm not going to pretend that I have the information others don't. Second, do we have any understanding at this time whether there will be a flair up or not in the fall...and what would THOSE numbers be? If you rely on historical records...which is reasonable, then how much more severe is this chinese virus over the last chinese virus and so forth? Do we think that by choosing some arbitrary rate of infection increase as a stop point that we understand the effects? No, the science is missing in what many suggest they want...but are easily pacified into an understanding they don't have.

Not having the science like all in this site, I cannot make a prediction. I do think it is fairly safe to suggest that migration infections increasing results in the potential numbers (maybe not percent) of hospitalization increasing. We don't even know that those infected couldn't be reinfected later. We really don't know a hell of a lot about this. There are so many unknowns at THIS time (although I'm certain data exists). What we do know is that lockdowns cannot go on forever and so it only makes sense we should actually understand something about them, rather than just a vague understanding that some amount of increased infections results in and increase in deaths or increased problems in the variables common in older people that have one issue to only soon get another.

Quite simply an understanding of what I suggest guide the lockdowns and such is better than the "guess" made today. I mean my suggestion is real science and would think those that want "science" really want science and not ideoology or hunches.

Now, not having the biological background, but guessing in what I think part of your questions get towards are the infection rate today and hospitalization later...what is that delay number? Errors there and every place create that scatter plot variation about that least squares fit or Pearson Correlation. There will be high readings and low readings with every location on the X axis...THAT variation would include all errors in measurement and effects of things we don't know. However, that scatterplot might be tighter than our best guesses at this time. Not spending time on this, but as a quick guess for explanation...I would solicit the biological exposure date to inflamination or such on the average of the human body. Let's say 5 days is the most common for it to get bad (use any number you like...the worse our guess, the larger the scatter of the data) enough to be hospitalized..."IF" it does. Maybe we have every state data on infection cases and 5 days later hospitalization in that local? All the errors of that prediction would include those properly admitted and those that were not by some others opinion. Maybe that number should be 4 days...does that create a better correlation and so forth?

The alternative to this understanding is what...guessing? I mean we already know the potential numbers of infection leans towards some number large enough that infinity is the lean...and yet actual data suggests something much different...much smaller. How do we arrive at our best understanding? Again, I have no idea what specifics should be used. I'm suggesting being driven by "understanding" the data...not the theological worse case, but what actually happens. Too many errors in the data based upon all the potential sources of variation just creates a larger band of prediction and actually then creates a false sense that something is worse than it really is...since they create more range than reality. However, is THAT range less than just guessing? I don't know, but would like to know.

What if we did that HT versus WT plot and so forth and we had errors in our ht measurement and scales ...some weighing us a few poounds to light and others too heavy...all those variables create a prediciton range greater than what really exists. Again, I don't have the answers and hopefully not suggesting I do. I just think we should be driven by science and as far as I know everyone thinks that as well even though they don't recognize the lack of science.

There are things we know we know. There are things we know we don't know (me on some). Then there are things we don't know, we don't know (most of us, me included) and those are the things that can come back and bite us. ;)
 
A) If you have a reliable source to backup your Cuomo claim, I’m more than happy to read it because a quick google search doesn’t show anything close to that.
B) My question to you wasn’t about Cuomo
C) Trump doesn’t wear masks either. But gets tested daily. While hammering on reopening the economy. When tests aren’t available. I just find it odd that the man telling you that the cure can’t be worse than the disease gets tested daily. Seems a bit hypocritical to me but I get that’s not your philosophy about it.

https://nypost.com/2020/04/18/no-on...a-coronavirus-positive-celebrity-in-hamptons/
Chris Cuomo out and about during Easter (quarantine period) without a mask.

From Tucker Carlson:

8:20 mark Chris Cuomo calling New Yorkers that want to enjoy life "Fools!" for not wearing masks.
9:12-9:55 mark Governor Cuomo saying it is disrespectful for not wearing masks & people should be cited because they can literally be killing someone. Cuomo walking in without a mask and is among a panel of other public officials all not wearing a mask. That was last week May 5, 2020.

For extra credit, watch the 5:51-6:12 mark where the Chicago Mayor justifies personal hygiene with need to have haircut and is more important than the rest of the general public.

That was an easy layup to find that.
 
From Tucker Carlson:


That was an easy layup to find that.

The one I liked was around 8 am when they were talking about Pence's press secretary, saying something to the effect of:

"This is interesting . . she tested negative on Thursday, but then tested positive later on . . ?"

Now that one was actually funny ! I guess Fox doesn't understand the shortfalls/inaccuracies of the current testing approach.
 
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The one I liked was around 8 am when they were talking about Pence's press secretary, saying something to the effect of:

"This is interesting . . she tested negative on Thursday, but then tested positive later on . . ?"

Now that one was actually funny ! I guess Fox doesn't understand the shortfalls/inaccuracies of the current testing approach.
What was later on? An hour later? A week later? I have no idea when this was (don't watch typically) to place in context? If the context was some duration after enough that we go hmnnnn, it makes me wonder what it is they may know that we don't because "if" that duration was some time later...none of us would be surprised. Do you know what day this was...maybe it can be found for greater understanding?
 
What was later on? An hour later? A week later? I have no idea when this was (don't watch typically) to place in context? If the context was some duration after enough that we go hmnnnn, it makes me wonder what it is they may know that we don't because "if" that duration was some time later...none of us would be surprised. Do you know what day this was...maybe it can be found for greater understanding?

sorry, I think they mentioned Friday, as in . . . how can you be negative on Thurs and positive on Friday. Anyone on this board could have answered that one. It reminded me of the Georgia Governor saying he was finally going to shutdown the state because he didn't realize that people could be contagious before showing major symptoms.

Bottom line: It just shows me that some people are so invested in the narrative that they are being fed that they just blindly follow it. (That kind of thinking is dangerous, as many are finding out)
 
https://nypost.com/2020/04/18/no-on...a-coronavirus-positive-celebrity-in-hamptons/
Chris Cuomo out and about during Easter (quarantine period) without a mask.

From Tucker Carlson:

8:20 mark Chris Cuomo calling New Yorkers that want to enjoy life "Fools!" for not wearing masks.
9:12-9:55 mark Governor Cuomo saying it is disrespectful for not wearing masks & people should be cited because they can literally be killing someone. Cuomo walking in without a mask and is among a panel of other public officials all not wearing a mask. That was last week May 5, 2020.

For extra credit, watch the 5:51-6:12 mark where the Chicago Mayor justifies personal hygiene with need to have haircut and is more important than the rest of the general public.

That was an easy layup to find that.

The Chicago mayor was in the wrong, agreed.

Aren’t the NY rules that you have to wear a mask if you can’t social distance? And are the rules in the Hamptons different than in NYC itself? I mean Tucker can wail all he wants (I won’t click his video...sorry...he’s not a reliable source) about freedoms but he’s broadcasting from home right? You don’t think he’s going outside ?
 
sorry, I think they mentioned Friday, as in . . . how can you be negative on Thurs and positive on Friday. Anyone on this board could have answered that one. It reminded me of the Georgia Governor saying he was finally going to shutdown the state because he didn't realize that people could be contagious before showing major symptoms.

Bottom line: It just shows me that some people are so invested in the narrative that they are being fed that they just blindly follow it. (That kind of thinking is dangerous, as many are finding out)
no reason to be sorry...I was curious. I often wonder about all the sources of information people in various levels of the government have that we don't. One thing is for certain, the private sector is every bit as "capable" as those in the public sector...probably moreso...just not privy to the same information as that is controlled in what gets out.

I heard about this plandemic and went to see what it was. Found out it was like the night of the broken glass in Germany or the book burning. I hate people hiding material. Why couldn't they just label it as rebuked by such and such..or this flies in the face of such and such for so many years...so many ways of addiing a qualifier to it rather than just deleting it as an attempt to control what we have access. This same stuff goes on in textbook adoptions in k-12 schooling. Argue the merits against it, rather than dispose of it. The technology control of what we have access is frightening...

Anyway, no reason to be sorry...just trying to understand.
 
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The Chicago mayor was in the wrong, agreed.

Aren’t the NY rules that you have to wear a mask if you can’t social distance? And are the rules in the Hamptons different than in NYC itself? I mean Tucker can wail all he wants (I won’t click his video...sorry...he’s not a reliable source) about freedoms but he’s broadcasting from home right? You don’t think he’s going outside ?
Yes, NY says to wear masks when social distancing. Walking on stage and behind other people is much closer than 6 feet.
Will agree that Tucker can wail quite a bit. I can only take his show for so long and MUST admit, Hannity is turned off at the beginning.
As another poster indicated it would be refreshing to have fair and balanced news. That went away ~ 2-3 election cycles ago. Seems like a bygone era when in reality is about 12-15 years ago.
 
The people that analyzed their math and use of statistics were objectively correct, and the businessmen were not.
False. The "statistician/biologist" used month old predictive data on mortality rates for his biased presentation. The CA Dr's used an incorrect extrapolation of data for their biased presentation.

When you get two biased presentations....the truth is often somewhere in the middle.
 
The Chicago mayor was in the wrong, agreed.

Aren’t the NY rules that you have to wear a mask if you can’t social distance? And are the rules in the Hamptons different than in NYC itself? I mean Tucker can wail all he wants (I won’t click his video...sorry...he’s not a reliable source) about freedoms but he’s broadcasting from home right? You don’t think he’s going outside ?
Yes I am sure Tucker is going outside. He like anyone with a brain has figured out being outside is one of the safest places to be during this pandemic.

Tucker was calling out Chris Cuomo's hypocrisy on being outside issue. While Chris Cuomo was infected/contagious with Covid 19 he broke quarantine and got in a verbal spat outside with a bicyclist. A few weeks later Chris Cuomo is calling fellow New Yorkers..."fools" for being outside at park.
 
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Yes I am sure Tucker is going outside. He like anyone with a brain has figured out being outside is one of the safest places to be during this pandemic.

Tucker was calling out Chris Cuomo's hypocrisy on being outside issue. While Chris Cuomo was infected/contagious with Covid 19 he broke quarantine and got in a verbal spat outside with a bicyclist. A few weeks later Chris Cuomo is calling fellow New Yorkers..."fools" for being outside at park.

Ah so it’s a he said/he said type of thing and the only station the guy talked to was Fox? I see that Chris said there was a confrontation but it was different than this guy described. The guy says Chris wasn’t wearing a mask; Chris says he was. Sorry, this doesn’t prove much.
 
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Ah so it’s a he said/he said type of thing and the only station the guy talked to was Fox? I see that Chris said there was a confrontation but it was different than this guy described. The guy says Chris wasn’t wearing a mask; Chris says he was. Sorry, this doesn’t prove much.

Do you not understand what Covid 19 quarantine means..... for a Covid 19 positive person?

Keep in mind that this is the same Chris Cuomo that staged his "first time leaving basement" for his tv show.....a week or so....after he broke quarantine and got in verbal spat with bicyclist.
 
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False. The "statistician/biologist" used month old predictive data on mortality rates for his biased presentation. The CA Dr's used an incorrect extrapolation of data for their biased presentation.

When you get two biased presentations....the truth is often somewhere in the middle.
So one used data that was the best they had at the time. The other purposefully (or perhaps stupidly) misrepresented statistics for profit.

In the middle my ass.
 
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So one used data that was the best they had at the time. The other purposefully (or perhaps stupidly) misrepresented statistics for profit.

In the middle my ass.

The biologist/statistician used a month old power point slide. His predictive stats were outdated. He used an outdated estimation of 1% mortality rate.

The California Dr's incorrectly extrapolated stats, to understate the mortality rate.

Both were biased presentations. The truth is somewhere in the middle of those biased presentations.
 
I see the model the white house is using has been increasd again. Now saying over 130,000 dead.

Still too low, but I guess they think it's more palatable to keep raising it every other week versus just saying it's going to be over 250,000.
 
We now have 13 states with growth rates which have them "doubling" their total cases in a month.

In no particular order:

Alabama, Arkansas, California, Delaware, Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, So. Carolina, Texas, Wisconsin.
 
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