Knew they were a long shot but Illinois made the cut, Really lol Illinois...smh C'mon now that's a joke!
Wilkes & Scruggs
- Thread starter *Shockerrr*
- Start date
IL must have increased the incoming player's salary structure.
It remains to be seen if Illinois can continue to recruit well enough to be competitive. I'd have to think Groce's seat is pretty warm; can't imagine this isn't being used against him on the recruiting trail. His contract is through 2018/19, which is exactly where CMP's was before the recent extension. But yes, it is surprising that Illinois continue to get mentioned with higher profile kids when they've been a disappointing team the last 3 years. Heck, they haven't been better than .500 in the B1G since 2009/10 when Weber was still there.
While I do not disagree with anything that you said, I do believe that it raises some interesting questions...his seat obviously is warm, and he has not received an extension ala Painter, yet he still is in on (and a finalist for) not only some of the most talented players...but players that Painter is not in on or a finalist for, and players from Indiana for that matter.
While not likely to land Wilkes, it is more than disappointing for the kid to have a list of 11 finalists and Purdue is not one of them.
Scruggs was a guy deemed to not be a good fit allegedly...and while that may have some merit, it sure is tough to see a guy that good and that talented in the state not even have a passing interest in the program.
So when Purdue is a finalist for Malik Williams & Jaren Jackson, what then?
Who really cares if we are on 11-team lists or even finalists? We will be in the same position as the team that finishes 2nd for Wilkes and the same holds true if we make the final list and don't land him.
Jackson is top 20 and Williams #35. Painter has 1 guy in 10 years in that range and that was Biggie. Odd's don't seem really great that he gets those guys, but we will see.
Regardless, they are big men and we really need some talented guard play. Hopefully Painter can get a talented 2 in 17.
Etwaun was #33 I believe. But ya I'm with you, painters track record of landing top rated guys has been very disappointing to say the least.
#35 on Rivals......other services had him in the 20's.....high 4* either way.
Didn't we just finish in LAST PLACE of the B1G a few short years ago?? And have a terrible multi-year stretch of our own??
ILL is a great program and is historically at least a Top 5 (if not Top 3) BBall school in the B1G.
You need to check that humility, bro.
Yeah but they have been hot garbage since hiring Groce and every good recruit he gets seems to flame out and cause more harm than good to them in the long run. Don't they have a pretty impressive run of NOT making the tournament going? I'm not sure how and why Groce still has a job since Weber consistently delivered NCAAT appearances yet was considered awful.
understand the comment, but not sure what kind of odds it should be. I believe that Matt has done much better since he has a budget that allows him to recruit and so I see old data and new data. That said, the old data results on the court for a few years will hurt the recruiting today...possibly. Matt and Purdue should be enticing to players that want to develop a full game and see a strength of themselves as a versatile player that can go inside and out as needed. if Matt does well this year then he will have compensated to recruiting better in the future in spite of the previous budget on recruiting. Star power is a positive correlation with player abilities, but that is not a 1 with regression all around. Some think Purdue is in great shape with Malik based upon his comments and being from the Fort, but we shall see. I think Jackson was a priority BEFORE he blew up and I assume Jaren knows that. No matter what, kids will pick and choose without the kind of understanding of how things play out as Rosie did for Biggie. Matt is on many good ones and I suspect would prefer a little more movement with the 4 and 5 combo as the rule change enhances that need. Purdue has a place for a cerebral, skilled player and any added athleticism is great...
There's a difference between a bad stretch and a bad stretch plus multiple arrests. I would have to think Groce's seat is pretty warm. Then again, if the university was OK with a 4 game suspension for a felony that was plead down, who knows...
Uhhhhh, ILL is;
#1 in all-time winning percentage (IU #2, PU #3)
#2 in all-time wins (IU #1, PU #3)
#4 in all-time B1G titles (PU, IU, OSU have more)
#2 in all-time NCAA Tourney appearances (IU #1, PU #3)
#4 in Final Four appearances (OSU, MSU, IU have more)
I think they could make a case for all-time Top 3. They are definitely Top 5.
And yes, I think Groce's seat is on fire. He has done very poorly, and will probably be gone in the near future. However, with the right coach (thank God Shaka didn't go there instead of Groce), I think ILL could be right back in the national spotlight.
#1 in all-time winning percentage (IU #2, PU #3)
#2 in all-time wins (IU #1, PU #3)
#4 in all-time B1G titles (PU, IU, OSU have more)
#2 in all-time NCAA Tourney appearances (IU #1, PU #3)
#4 in Final Four appearances (OSU, MSU, IU have more)
I think they could make a case for all-time Top 3. They are definitely Top 5.
And yes, I think Groce's seat is on fire. He has done very poorly, and will probably be gone in the near future. However, with the right coach (thank God Shaka didn't go there instead of Groce), I think ILL could be right back in the national spotlight.
Maybe we are overlooking a factor that PB hit upon. "since hiring Groce and every good recruit he gets seems to flame out and cause more harm than good to them in the long run." Not to mention the anti Purdue barrage which everyone south of Lafayette experiences every day of their life in our fine state. Maybe the slightly less talented but not such a diva players is good. If Painter or (insert name here) can get solid people in the 50-100 range regularly, that's probably as good as it gets with an occasional 5 star thrown in.
Better to lose early on the top kids. Painter has very little chance of landing them until he has success in the tourney. Spend time and resources on the upper-second-tier players and not have to settle for the GW's or open scholarships.
I think Painter knows his extension and employment at PU under the next AD rides on this '17 class.
With this much home grown talent, there's really no excuse for not getting a couple of that group of 8 top guys. Yes, I know the competition is tough, but that's a big part of the coaches job.
With this much home grown talent, there's really no excuse for not getting a couple of that group of 8 top guys. Yes, I know the competition is tough, but that's a big part of the coaches job.
Groce got a commit from top 15 JTillman, without that contract extension. I keep reading that the CMP contract extension will result in a recruiting bonanza. I just do not agree. Willkes and Scruggs did not include Purdue in the initial cut, not that IU will get them-but IU still has a chance, w/o a contract extension. I was roundly criticized for "liking" the CMP extension, as an IU fan. From what I read between the personal insults, the extension was to ensure Purdue's recruiting success. Good luck. I really do want a national rivalry again.
Jimmy, there is a big difference between saying CMP needed the contract extension to be able to recruit vs. saying it would lead to a recruiting bonanza. I do not recall seeing the latter stated until you said it.
Purdue is always going to be hard to recruit to as the second most popular program in the state. Illinois has usually out recruited Purdue but they rarely out perform them. Maybe I'm reading too much into your last sentence but remember IU and Purdue have been pretty even the last couple seasons...so good luck to you as well.
Jimmy, you are usually a pretty good poster on here. However, you have created the classic straw man.....Show me where anyone has said the extension would result in a "recruiting bonanza". That is something you just made up.
Crean beat us one time out of four games over the last three seasons. I don't think we're the end holding the rivalry back.
BTW, making a top 11 list is not what I would call "recruiting success".
You're happy we signed Painter and I'm thrilled you still have Crean. Guess we'll just see what happens.
I recall plenty of posters mentioning the extension in terms of it being necessary to aid in recruiting (for purposes of continuity of the program and CMP remaining there, etc.), but I don't recall either where there were assertions that it would/should lead to some mythical recruiting "bonanza." I think plenty of posters would oppose that view as well.....maybe not.....
The process of finding the right kid, with the right attitude and skills, then convincing him that Purdue is the place for him is a long and involved process. We are going to sort through a lot of chaff before we get to the kids we even want, then it is usually a horse race with MSU. Oddly, they seem to evaluate talent in the same way Painter does, meaning we are often after the same kids.
Before I would make any conclusions about recruiting success or lack there of, I would wait for all the shoes to fall. I don't think we were ever that interested in Scruggs. I don't know about Wilkes. There are lots of kids out there who will be the right fit and the right kid for this team. I think we are in the "Quiet period" so news will be sparse. As for Groce, he can offer immediate playing time, which can be attractive to some kids. Meh.
Before I would make any conclusions about recruiting success or lack there of, I would wait for all the shoes to fall. I don't think we were ever that interested in Scruggs. I don't know about Wilkes. There are lots of kids out there who will be the right fit and the right kid for this team. I think we are in the "Quiet period" so news will be sparse. As for Groce, he can offer immediate playing time, which can be attractive to some kids. Meh.
As always, I will disagree with you on this one. If Painter whiffs on this 2017 class, and we can debate what exactly whiffing (striking out, failing, whatever) means with this class with so much talent being local. But if Painter ends up with his usual recruiting group of a few 75 thru 150 level players for 2017, then I strongly predict that he won't be around by the 2020 season.
You guys can "strongly predict" whatever you want. He's going to be here as long as he wants to be.
Yeh, and we see how well that strategy worked out with Keady......
Painter is not above reproach. He's not a Final Four or National Championship coach (not yet at least).
If he whiffs on the '17 class, and isn't building a team capable of FF and NC, why are you keeping him around unless you're happy with 24 wins and Sweet 16s. Isn't 15 years long enough to prove whether you can get to the promised land?
There is absolutely no possibility Purdue lets him go if he's winning 24 games a year and making Sweet Sixteens.
You would've fired Bo Ryan at Wisconsin because he didn't get to a Final Four until his 13th season there. You would've fired Jay Wright at Villanova because he didn't get to the second weekend of the tournament for 6 consecutive years prior to this past season. In short, your way is idiotic and makes no sense. Good thing it is limited to a handful of blowhards on an internet message board.
You keep bringing up Bo Ryan, and I say over and over, Wisconsin wasn't the all-time wins leader in the Big Ten when Ryan took over. Purdue WAS when Painter took over! The expectations are completely different. Let's compare with Villanova: Jay Wright couldn't "get to the second weekend". Well, in the last five years Painter can't get to the second game of the NCAA tourney; let's forget to the second weekend. It cracks me up. how we make fun of John Groce at Illinois, Well, in his four years at Illinois, he has won one NCAA tourney game. That is one more than Painter has won in the last four years. In his four years at Illinois has Groce finished DEAD LAST in the Big Ten? Painter did three years ago.
You state as long as he's winning 24 and going to Sweet Sixteens, Painter isn't going anywhere. We agree there. But the problem is he hasn't been to one in seven, SEVEN YEARS!! (You only have to win two stinking games to get to a Sweet Sixteen) But it's seven years and only two in eleven years. Painter is not a Sweet Sixteen coach. If he whiffs on this class, he will soon be gone. However strongly you disagree, your opinion isn't any better informed or correct than mine. We shall see.
You state as long as he's winning 24 and going to Sweet Sixteens, Painter isn't going anywhere. We agree there. But the problem is he hasn't been to one in seven, SEVEN YEARS!! (You only have to win two stinking games to get to a Sweet Sixteen) But it's seven years and only two in eleven years. Painter is not a Sweet Sixteen coach. If he whiffs on this class, he will soon be gone. However strongly you disagree, your opinion isn't any better informed or correct than mine. We shall see.
Maybe you'd like to look at the state of the Purdue program that Painter did take over. The last 5 years of Keady
2000-2001 - 6-10 conference record, 8th place, NIT
2001-2002 - 5-11 conference record, 8th place, no postseason
2002-2003 - 10-6 conference record, 3rd place, NCAA 2nd round
2003-2004 - 7-9 conference record, 7th place, NIT
2004-2005 - 3-13 conference record, 10th place, no postseason
So to summarize, in the 5 years prior to Painter taking over the program, we were 31-49 in the Big Ten and only once did we finish in the upper half of the conference or make the NCAA tournament.
The Wisconsin program that Bo Ryan took over had made the NCAA tournament in the 3 seasons prior to him taking over and went to the Final Four in 2000.
So if you want to look at which program was in better shape when the respective coaches took over, Painter inherited Purdue in a FAR WORSE spot that Bo Ryan did taking over Wisconsin.
Try again.
Jay Wright didn't get to the 2nd game of the tournament in 3 of the 6 years prior to this past one either. I was saying second weekend because the furthest he got was the 2nd game but they sure as hell didn't get that far all 6 of those years. One year they didn't make the postseason at all and that was in his 11th season as coach at Villanova. By your moron logic you would have replaced him because you shouldn't have a bad team 11 years after taking over a program and you wouldn't be happy going 6 years without getting to the Sweet Sixteen.
That was the hypothetical bonefish brought up. I just suggested it was laughable to suggest making a switch in that scenario.
He's gone 6 seasons without a Sweet Sixteen. Same period Jay Wright went without one before last season.
I'm sure you want Purdue to go to a FF and win a NC as much as the rest of us, but in your opinion, under what circumstances would you believe Painter should be replaced?
What are your benchmarks?
Is 20 wins and reaching the tourney?
What about signing Top 10/20 recruiting classes?
Should making the FF or a NC even be part of the criteria? If so, how many years should a coach get to reach those goals?
I wouldn't think about replacing a coach that is getting to the NCAA tournament every year because my belief is that you get to the Final Four by giving yourself as many opportunities as possible. There's much luck involved in a single-elimination tournament like that. If you keep putting yourself in position then things are bound to go your way eventually. Recruiting class rankings matter absolutely zero to me. All I care is that a coach wins with what he recruits.
By your reasoning, how much longer should we keep Shondell as volleyball coach? He has been at Purdue for 12 seasons. He has yet to win the Big Ten. He has yet to go to the Final Four. He didn't make the NCAA tournament 2 years ago. Yet I and everyone I talk to think he is an excellent coach. But he falls short by most of the standards you set for Painter. Do you think it's reasonable to replace Shondell too?
As long as Mackey is mostly full, he's not getting fired. That's the long and short of it.
