Why is everyone freaking out

[Cevol03]

It doesn't seem like either Tillman or Battey will be all-conference type players, just solid contributors. The last couple years, there have been several guys like this still available in the spring and with the abundance of transfers and 5th yearers now, we can probably pick up a transfer or two that is just as good. If you just look at youtube clips, it looks like Wheeler, Haarms and Sodom all have way more potential than the two we just lost - even if the rankings don't reflect that. If you showed me these clips (i understand they are limited) and didn't tell me the rankings, I probably would have guessed that Tillman and Battey were at the bottom of the list.

I understand freaking out over JJJ and Malik, but for Tillman and Battey, really?

 

[tjreese]

It doesn't seem like either Tillman or Battey will be all-conference type players, just solid contributors. The last couple years, there have been several guys like this still available in the spring and with the abundance of transfers and 5th yearers now, we can probably pick up a transfer or two that is just as good. If you just look at youtube clips, it looks like Wheeler, Haarms and Sodom all have way more potential than the two we just lost - even if the rankings don't reflect that. If you showed me these clips (i understand they are limited) and didn't tell me the rankings, I probably would have guessed that Tillman and Battey were at the bottom of the list.

I understand freaking out over JJJ and Malik, but for Tillman and Battey, really?

I understand exactly what you are saying and can agree with teh sentiment. I would have liked Tillman, but wasn't sold on Battey. Malik and J**3 would have been great and I really thought Purdue would get one, but it never happened.
I'm ready for the season to begin and for Purdue to be better this year. I'm not about to step off the ledge, because speculation about a high school recruit has some degree of speculation. Matt will be judged in a couple of years if his players end up being as bad as some suspect. However, it will be the performance of the team and not who is recruited on the court, off the court and in the classroom that will or will not dictate a change in coaching down the road.

 

[boilerpt]

I understand people wanting to downplay Painter/Purdue missing on another recruit. And I can understand people watching some clips on YouTube and thinking that the Plan C or D (or whatever we end up with) guy will be just as good as all the ones Painter whiffs on. However, there is a great deal of significance to the fact that Painter has spent so much time and effort (and resources) on them...there is a difference between them and what we will eventually get. Most likely a big difference, one that can help explain our early exits from post season play. Painter is a decent coach, but below average recruiter. I'm guessing that when our '17 class in complete, it will include 2-3 guys we haven't even heard about yet.

 

[tjreese]

I understand people wanting to downplay Painter/Purdue missing on another recruit. And I can understand people watching some clips on YouTube and thinking that the Plan C or D (or whatever we end up with) guy will be just as good as all the ones Painter whiffs on. However, there is a great deal of significance to the fact that Painter has spent so much time and effort (and resources) on them...there is a difference between them and what we will eventually get. Most likely a big difference, one that can help explain our early exits from post season play. Painter is a decent coach, but below average recruiter. I'm guessing that when our '17 class in complete, it will include 2-3 guys we haven't even heard about yet.

relative to star power I don't think Purdue recruits as high as it should. I do not know what weighting to give to Matt, but certainly he plays a large role. I do think his results as a coach are better than the role he plays in recruiting. Still, it will be results that matter and basketball can change a lot quicker than football. Biggie has been the highest rated or highest star power player in some time and yet there were many games last year people wanted him pulled as he needed some more experience to be more effective in their eyes.

So it may very well be that Purdue will need to improved with 4 year players to get to the point that recruiting rankings improve...and with all the hyperbole about the tourney...advance in the tourney for "that" sales pitch!

Dane Fife said on Biggie that Matt is too honest in recruiting and that MSU sells it better telling a little more what the player wants to hear.

 

[Dryfly88]

relative to star power I don't think Purdue recruits as high as it should. I do not know what weighting to give to Matt, but certainly he plays a large role. I do think his results as a coach are better than the role he plays in recruiting. Still, it will be results that matter and basketball can change a lot quicker than football. Biggie has been the highest rated or highest star power player in some time and yet there were many games last year people wanted him pulled as he needed some more experience to be more effective in their eyes.

So it may very well be that Purdue will need to improved with 4 year players to get to the point that recruiting rankings improve...and with all the hyperbole about the tourney...advance in the tourney for "that" sales pitch!

Dane Fife said on Biggie that Matt is too honest in recruiting and that MSU sells it better telling a little more what the player wants to hear.

Do you have a link for that? Would like to see exactly what Fife said.

 

[boilersallthewaynow]

It doesn't seem like either Tillman or Battey will be all-conference type players, just solid contributors. The last couple years, there have been several guys like this still available in the spring and with the abundance of transfers and 5th yearers now, we can probably pick up a transfer or two that is just as good. If you just look at youtube clips, it looks like Wheeler, Haarms and Sodom all have way more potential than the two we just lost - even if the rankings don't reflect that. If you showed me these clips (i understand they are limited) and didn't tell me the rankings, I probably would have guessed that Tillman and Battey were at the bottom of the list.

I understand freaking out over JJJ and Malik, but for Tillman and Battey, really?

To answer your question in the title of this post,

Painter continues to show that he isn't a very good overall recruiter and that he is a very average coach in general.

Unfortunately, those traits fit in very well at a university that doesn't care about winning in athletics but rather how much athletics is going to cost it.

 

[punaj]

Do you have a link for that? Would like to see exactly what Fife said.

I don't have a link but found this interesting. Guess we got beat out for his services by MSU too, if you believe everything you read on the internet.

Assistant at Michigan State
Following the 2010–11 season Fife was contacted by Purdue basketball head coach Matt Painter to fill the associate head coach position. On April 15, 2011, Fife withdrew his name from consideration for the Purdue job.[14]Fife was named assistant coach at Michigan State by Tom Izzo on April 20, 2011. He replaced Mark Montgomery, who was named head coach at Northern Illinois in March 2011.[15]

 

[Dryfly88]

I don't have a link but found this interesting. Guess we got beat out for his services by MSU too, if you believe everything you read on the internet.

Assistant at Michigan State
Following the 2010–11 season Fife was contacted by Purdue basketball head coach Matt Painter to fill the associate head coach position. On April 15, 2011, Fife withdrew his name from consideration for the Purdue job.[14]Fife was named assistant coach at Michigan State by Tom Izzo on April 20, 2011. He replaced Mark Montgomery, who was named head coach at Northern Illinois in March 2011.[15]

Interesting. I would like to read/hear exactly what he said about CMP being too honest during recruiting.

 

[BoiledSteel]

Painter continues to show that he isn't a very good overall recruiter and that he is a very average coach in general..

Recruiting yes, average coach? Not even remotely correct he is above average to say the least.

 

[tjreese]

Do you have a link for that? Would like to see exactly what Fife said.

I can't tell you if it was a link or was Dakich on 1070, but I can tell you it was around the committing time of biggie and there is NO doubt or possibility that I am wrong on this being said or in print. It stuck with me that much. If forced to place money I would say dakich on 1070 and possibly in the archives.

 

[old 23]

If Matt is such a below average recruiter, how did we get the group of kids that we now have,(rated #10 in some polls) and the two Big Ten defensive players of the year that we just graduated. Truth is people, if there is a player out there and 50 schools want him to come play for them, not all of them are going to be happy. If Duke, North Carolina and Kentucky all go after the same player hard, two of them are going to end up looking like poor recruiters in some peoples eyes.

 

[tjreese]

I don't have a link but found this interesting. Guess we got beat out for his services by MSU too, if you believe everything you read on the internet.

Assistant at Michigan State
Following the 2010–11 season Fife was contacted by Purdue basketball head coach Matt Painter to fill the associate head coach position. On April 15, 2011, Fife withdrew his name from consideration for the Purdue job.[14]Fife was named assistant coach at Michigan State by Tom Izzo on April 20, 2011. He replaced Mark Montgomery, who was named head coach at Northern Illinois in March 2011.[15]

Oh yes and Fife would have been a nice get for Matt. Matt wanted him. Interesting that Dugan played for Michigan and I remember when Dane went to IU the comments about whether it would be Knight or Dane that was the toughest SOB.

 

[tjreese]

If Matt is such a below average recruiter, how did we get the group of kids that we now have,(rated #10 in some polls) and the two Big Ten defensive players of the year that we just graduated. Truth is people, if there is a player out there and 50 schools want him to come play for them, not all of them are going to be happy. If Duke, North Carolina and Kentucky all go after the same player hard, two of them are going to end up looking like poor recruiters in some peoples eyes.

recruiting abilities of Matt/Purdue (they are nested or confounded) are not below average... in the NCAA. They have not recently been as high in the Big as Purdue finishes and that suggests the possible errors in ranking and the possibility of Matt's coaching. You have to understand that a lot of people are frustrated with Purdue's last couple of finishes in the tourney and do not see the rankings for the players giving them a warm feeling for the future. Ya know, you take any stat and see what is lost from a team and somehow that gets replaced. Teams that lose 40% of their scoring rarely score 40% less the next year...many times about the same.

Sometimes it is easy to see some panic and can you imagine a coach going into OT and losing his best player and that coach showing panic and being successful in OT? I'm ready for this next year as I love to see how pieces fit.

 

[pharoutengineer]

relative to star power I don't think Purdue recruits as high as it should. I do not know what weighting to give to Matt, but certainly he plays a large role. I do think his results as a coach are better than the role he plays in recruiting. Still, it will be results that matter and basketball can change a lot quicker than football. Biggie has been the highest rated or highest star power player in some time and yet there were many games last year people wanted him pulled as he needed some more experience to be more effective in their eyes.

So it may very well be that Purdue will need to improved with 4 year players to get to the point that recruiting rankings improve...and with all the hyperbole about the tourney...advance in the tourney for "that" sales pitch!

Dane Fife said on Biggie that Matt is too honest in recruiting and that MSU sells it better telling a little more what the player wants to hear.

I think it has been pretty obvious that this is true with Painter regarding being too honest. Prime example is with Haas. They called and asked him what Isaac should do regarding his decommitment from Wake Forest and Matt told them to stick with his commit to Wake. They initially thought that meant Purdue was no longer interested in Isaac. I mean, I don't want him lying to kids, but sometimes you have to be salesman and tell them what they want to hear. Save the brutal honesty until after they get on campus.

 

[bstrouse]

Exactly. You know Izzo does just that. He sells people early and lets them deal with the tough coaching and brutal honesty when they are on campus. Izzo is tough and demanding on his players. A Yahoo sports article on Gary Harris mentioned how Harris was sometimes bratty to Izzo, but Tom always knew how to change his approach to diffuse situations and keep his players engaged.

We just have to face the facts, Painter isn't a good salesperson and people person, especially compared to Izzo. Hate to say it, but that can make a world of difference.

I think it has been pretty obvious that this is true with Painter regarding being too honest. Prime example is with Haas. They called and asked him what Isaac should do regarding his decommitment from Wake Forest and Matt told them to stick with his commit to Wake. They initially thought that meant Purdue was no longer interested in Isaac. I mean, I don't want him lying to kids, but sometimes you have to be salesman and tell them what they want to hear. Save the brutal honesty until after they get on campus.

 

[PU pit bull]

So everyone would be happier if CMP abandoned his code of ethics, and became more of a slimy salesman to get some of these prima donnas........now I've heard it all, smh. So where is the line drawn? Get these kids in a PU uniform at all costs......and it is ok?

 

[boilersallthewaynow]

Recruiting yes, average coach? Not even remotely correct he is above average to say the least.

If so , it's slight above average and will remain that way until he can demonstrate that he can win big games consistently.

Wow we almost agree on something.

 

[Dryfly88]

I can't tell you if it was a link or was Dakich on 1070, but I can tell you it was around the committing time of biggie and there is NO doubt or possibility that I am wrong on this being said or in print. It stuck with me that much. If forced to place money I would say dakich on 1070 and possibly in the archives.

Not doubting you. Just was interested in reading exactly what he said. I have sometimes thought he was too "old school" and honest with recruits but I have no proof of that. Hearing a competing coach say it carries some weight.

 

[TC4THREE]

So everyone would be happier if CMP abandoned his code of ethics, and became more of a slimy salesman to get some of these prima donnas........now I've heard it all, smh. So where is the line drawn? Get these kids in a PU uniform at all costs......and it is ok?

If having your team go to a Final Four is their primary reason for living, why would you expect anything different?

 

[BoiledSteel]

If so , it's slight above average and will remain that way until he can demonstrate that he can win big games consistently.

He has. Especially in conference, but I get where you are going and basing that statement off of a couple bad years in the tourney.

Wow we almost agree on something.

And just think, I didn't even tell you to post that lol.

 

[tjreese]

So everyone would be happier if CMP abandoned his code of ethics, and became more of a slimy salesman to get some of these prima donnas........now I've heard it all, smh. So where is the line drawn? Get these kids in a PU uniform at all costs......and it is ok?

Well, I never said I would be happier. I hope I didn't leave the impression that Matt can't recruit because he is honest. I wish I could remember the exact words from Dan, but it was a combination of stretching things and perhaps leaving out a few things that Izzo would do?

 

[tjreese]

Not doubting you. Just was interested in reading exactly what he said. I have sometimes thought he was too "old school" and honest with recruits but I have no proof of that. Hearing a competing coach say it carries some weight.

I know that...didn't really mean to imply that you did. I believe it was Dan talking about recruiting Biggie and what Fife had told Dan a difference between Matt and Izzo. As I said in another post a few seconds ago...I'm thinking it wasn't full disclosure or mentioning potential negative things in going to MSU and some stretching in how biggie would be used.

I don't want this to come off that Matt is too honest and Izzo is a slime...or that one is not a salesman and the other is. My intent was that Matt was brutally honest...and when society had a little more integrity and character THAT would have been huge. Today, there is too much me, too much focus in the limelight probably resulting from the child centered schools and programming so many youngster that the world revolves around them.

As I said previously, I really thought Matt would land Malik and/or JJJ and be a strong player for Tillman. However, where I probably disagree with many posters is that I am not ready to throw in the towel. There are a lot of good players, players that enhance team chemistry, players willing to sacrifice and pay the price...and some that are truly late developers that will be better than many rated in front of them. I'm a believer that generally speaking the higher the player rankings, the better the team...perhaps more so today with the rule emphasis. If you recruit enough of those players you typically fare better than if you don't. But I also know that relationship has regression and it is not perfect.

Purdue will be good this year, good last year and good the last half of the year before. I think the indications are that Purdue is trending up instead of down and that Purdue is light years better than they were just a few years ago. People have a bad taste in their mouth as a result of Cincy, Little Rock and the press in general. That has generated a little more urgency for many posters than the slower improvement the last few years.

If Matt has NCAA troubles the next couple of years, he could be in trouble, but I doubt that to be the case. There is real confidence and overt confidence that is more show than believed. Biggie helped bring some of that and the other players that have now had more success have it too...I look for a more confident team in crunch. I said it a year ago, but I love it when a kid can go play with other high rated players and he has enough confidence that he thinks he can go to a less star studded team and beat the stars...which he did once and almost twice. I think we will enjoy this team and I look forward to seeing how the pieces go together and seeing the individual improvement. It is not a team that is highly athletic, but a team that has some skill and a few athletic players...mostly it is a team...and one that will be "better" in scoring when a "player" has to make a play...I believe...

 

[skfboiler]

So everyone would be happier if CMP abandoned his code of ethics, and became more of a slimy salesman to get some of these prima donnas........now I've heard it all, smh. So where is the line drawn? Get these kids in a PU uniform at all costs......and it is ok?

Yes!

 

[PU pit bull]

Well, I never said I would be happier. I hope I didn't leave the impression that Matt can't recruit because he is honest. I wish I could remember the exact words from Dan, but it was a combination of stretching things and perhaps leaving out a few things that Izzo would do?

This post was most definitely not aimed at you. It was aimed at those, who have in not so many words, expressed that they would be ok with lying and cheating. No integrity left.

 

[BBG]

Yes!

No.

 

[Boilermaker]

I wonder if Matt is fully aware of his "brutally honest" style when interacting with recruits compared to other coaches/salesmen. Matt strikes me as someone who just doesn't have the slick salesmen persona in him, and I think he knows this. Most of the general populous do not have this in them, hence why there is the salesmen stereotype (that many find off putting and don't see themselves being, maybe Matt too?). If he is this self aware, which I would think he is, then he doesn't try to sell snake oil just to get the kids in the door as Matt knows how he will lead and build his teams and it won't jibe with how he sold it to a recruit. He knows it would be counterproductive in that it would lead to unhappy recruits (transfers) and worse, cancers. He knows what these bad fits can do to the type of teams he prefers and fosters. Basically, Matt can't keep up the ruse and/or deftly handle pre maddona types when they aren't "feeling the love" as perhaps Izzo and other coaches are successfully able to do. I believe Matt knows X's and O's better than most high level coaches, the guy totally lives and breathes basketball, has his whole life, in arguably the best state for BB. He may not be as good at developing and maintaining report with many top shelf spotlight/showcase loving players, but he has his strengths and he simply is who he is. I am rooting for a fellow alumnus and crossing fingers and toes we see that Final Four in this decade.

 

[mathboy]

Oh yes and Fife would have been a nice get for Matt. Matt wanted him. Interesting that Dugan played for Michigan and I remember when Dane went to IU the comments about whether it would be Knight or Dane that was the toughest SOB.

In some respects, Izzo seems to be targeting Matt and the Purdue program. He specifically goes after our best recruits, year after year. Any thoughts?

 

[Boilermaker]

In some respects, Izzo seems to be targeting Matt and the Purdue program. He specifically goes after our best recruits, year after year. Any thoughts?

See my post above. If Izzo can play in that arena better than Matt and he knows the recruit is responsive to that style, why wouldn't he? Seems most top level recruits expect and want that warm and fuzzy and if Matt can't provide it then someone like Izzo certainly will try.

 

[tjreese]

This post was most definitely not aimed at you. It was aimed at those, who have in not so many words, expressed that they would be ok with lying and cheating. No integrity left.

no problem whatsoever. I wasn't sure, but thought my position may need stated. On the net many times things get confused.

 

[tjreese]

In some respects, Izzo seems to be targeting Matt and the Purdue program. He specifically goes after our best recruits, year after year. Any thoughts?

I think there is some similarity in playing styles...some similarity in toughness. I think the location and style bring Purdue and MSU after many of the same nearby talent. You have to remember that when IZZO took over for Jud a large portion of what he wanted to develop his team on was Purdue. Izzo had so much respect for Gene and Purdue as far as how hard Purdue played and that Purdue made you beat them. The emphasis on D, boards and giving it your all on Izzo teams were the admiration Izzo had for Purdue. He made that a staple for his program...and of course Jud no doubt was a huge influence...perhaps more on O.

Matt took many of those things from time at Purdue as well. I think Matt's O has a Knight influence embedded in it. I think many of these things bring IZZO and Matt together on many of the same players. FWIW, I remember when Tiller and Purdue seemed to be in on many players Boston College was after. I don't know football well enough to know how Boston College played at the time, but both programs were after similar players it seemed.

 

[tjreese]

See my post above. If Izzo can play in that arena better than Matt and he knows the recruit is responsive to that style, why wouldn't he? Seems most top level recruits expect and want that warm and fuzzy and if Matt can't provide it then someone like Izzo certainly will try.

I think there is that and buzz surrounding March that the media promoted and the public was more than happy to endorse. Many fans somehow become much more infatuated with that attention than the whole season or total picture. Consequently, the last two years where Purdue has not lived up to the performance has allowed the ears to be grabbed by some and perhaps be a deciding factor for that player. I don't think we can dismiss the Crossroads either. Since that has been in play...Purdue has not been good in some cases and in others not played as well as capable. THOSE performances hurt Purdue. So it is win baby...win as much as anything I think.

 

[pharoutengineer]

So everyone would be happier if CMP abandoned his code of ethics, and became more of a slimy salesman to get some of these prima donnas........now I've heard it all, smh. So where is the line drawn? Get these kids in a PU uniform at all costs......and it is ok?

I don't know if you are responding to my post, but I specifically said I didn't want him lying to kids. I said I wanted him to be more of a salesman and save the brutal honesty until they make it to campus. You can still be honest, have ethics, etc. and, for example, understand that when a recruit you were after calls to tell you he is decommitting from another program, then maybe it might be time to sell him on your program rather than tell him he should not be decomitting. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[PU pit bull]

I don't know if you are responding to my post, but I specifically said I didn't want him lying to kids. I said I wanted him to be more of a salesman and save the brutal honesty until they make it to campus. You can still be honest, have ethics, etc. and, for example, understand that when a recruit you were after calls to tell you he is decommitting from another program, then maybe it might be time to sell him on your program rather than tell him he should not be decomitting. Nothing wrong with that.

Is that where you draw the line then? Are there degrees of honesty LOL? I know what you are saying, but once that door is opened.........when will it close?
I truly have read enough on here lately to make me think that a lot of fans would like to see CMP get dirty to get a recruit....and that saddens me.

 

[BoilerBiker]

Is that where you draw the line then? Are there degrees of honesty LOL? I know what you are saying, but once that door is opened.........when will it close?
I truly have read enough on here lately to make me think that a lot of fans would like to see CMP get dirty to get a recruit....and that saddens me.

Mentioned the Haas scenario before also.
it may not not always the wisest/best approach to be bluntly honest and end a conversation there. Maybe say something like yes I would tell my son not to decommit.... BUT if your situation does change or you feel differently, we do in fact want you to be a part of our team. (Which had to actually be clarified a day or two later by Haas and family).

Equivalent Example i gave before was answering the 'how do I look' question from a wife/girlfriend.
This is different than what you're maybe equating here, which is more on the level of lying about your wealth, profession, kid situation etc to get a woman.

 

[JohnHoosierr]

Ya i still cant beleive painter almost lost haas to himself of all people... That recruiting story made me cringe and i think basically sums up why the only time we ever get any decent recruits is when theres immediate playing time available.

 

[TC4THREE]

Ya i still cant beleive painter almost lost haas to himself of all people... That recruiting story made me cringe and i think basically sums up why the only time we ever get any decent recruits is when theres immediate playing time available.

Funny. I was proud when I read it. Guess it goes to show there are different types of people in this world. Not everyone respects honesty and decency.

 

[JohnHoosierr]

Funny. I was proud when I read it. Guess it goes to show there are different types of people in this world. Not everyone respects honesty and decency.

Apparently you respect crappy salesmen. Congrats?

 

[TC4THREE]

Apparently you respect crappy salesmen. Congrats?

So you respect manipulation and liars. Congrats?

 

[JohnHoosierr]

So you respect manipulation and liars. Congrats?

I respect good coaches that can sell a program. You don't, that's fine.

 

[TC4THREE]

I respect good coaches that can sell a program. You don't, that's fine.

I respect good, honest coaches. You don't. That's fine. (I'm settling in for Sunday Night Football. Can do this all night if you want.)