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What I find funny.

it amazes me the number of people that use tourney advancement as the measure of a coach. and to date nobody has taken me to task in another thread where I proposed that players were more important than coaches when two hand selected teams play in a hand selected site to generate money for the NCAA in a situation where the coaches know less about the teams and players than other games than so many other more direct comparisons...and players recruited are not a litmus test on a coaches ability to recruit. It tells me that the media has done the job of programming so many to generate the hype for mo money!. There are many accurate things that can be levied at Matt or any other coach, fair criticisms, but usually they get lost in the heat of the moment. Course I'm still lost on how a coach is better when he knows less about who he is playing and wins...which implies great preparation in the dark as though THAT is preparation, than a measure where the coaches know the other teams better and can make an informed decision? Tell me media....what should I think...errr "feel"...
I would say how a coach adapts and adjusts to unknowns or lessor known tendencies, says a lot about how good of a coach he is.
Every team tried to take the opponent out of what they want to do.
The coaches who can make good adjustments to unknown factors in a tight game, usually are the better coaches.
The more tricks or tools in ones bag comes from experience and preparation.
I think Matt is a good coach. But he struggled at times to make certain adjustments that seem obvious. I think it is more stubbornness then lack of knowledge.
But I am not sure what your argument is? It seems if both teams know eveything there is to know about each other. Then the more "who the players are" would play into it and not the opposite as you contend. The team that executes wins. Whereas in the tourney, it is being able to adapt the players to the situation or opportunities when they are presented. That's coaching.
 
it amazes me the number of people that use tourney advancement as the measure of a coach. and to date nobody has taken me to task in another thread where I proposed that players were more important than coaches when two hand selected teams play in a hand selected site to generate money for the NCAA in a situation where the coaches know less about the teams and players than other games than so many other more direct comparisons...and players recruited are not a litmus test on a coaches ability to recruit. It tells me that the media has done the job of programming so many to generate the hype for mo money!. There are many accurate things that can be levied at Matt or any other coach, fair criticisms, but usually they get lost in the heat of the moment. Course I'm still lost on how a coach is better when he knows less about who he is playing and wins...which implies great preparation in the dark as though THAT is preparation, than a measure where the coaches know the other teams better and can make an informed decision? Tell me media....what should I think...errr "feel"...
Honestly, you lost me completely with the whole coaches not knowing about other teams in the NCAA tourney thing.
 
Mediocre coach. Similar to Painter. Better recruiter, worse in game coach. Has advanced further and accomplished more than CMP to this point, but has more experience. And yes he has landed better players and underachieved (notably with the Zeller, Oladipo team a few years back). But he did get a FF at Marquette right? I don't think he could take Purdue farther than Painter but I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest they both have similar (sweet 16 type) ceilings at a Purdue type of school.
Wade got Marquette a Final Four. Crean was along for the ride.
 
I
I would say how a coach adapts and adjusts to unknowns or lessor known tendencies, says a lot about how good of a coach he is.
Every team tried to take the opponent out of what they want to do.
The coaches who can make good adjustments to unknown factors in a tight game, usually are the better coaches.
The more tricks or tools in ones bag comes from experience and preparation.
I think Matt is a good coach. But he struggled at times to make certain adjustments that seem obvious. I think it is more stubbornness then lack of knowledge.
But I am not sure what your argument is? It seems if both teams know eveything there is to know about each other. Then the more "who the players are" would play into it and not the opposite as you contend. The team that executes wins. Whereas in the tourney, it is being able to adapt the players to the situation or opportunities when they are presented. That's coaching.

If you believe that basketball is filled with unknowns relative to X and O's we disagree. If I know the tendencies of coaches and know their players well, I can coach against it. If I don't I can't, I can only guess at what I need to do. This is why players in conference must continue to improve or already be extremely blessed...because coaches will take away things and play others on the other team as a result of knowing more not less.. Many games can be decided in a two minute segment and believe me things fly by in a blink. This is why conference play is usually closer than many times other teams of similar abilities. In my mind it is much easier to coach when I know more information than less.

If a team is much more loaded than my team and neither knows much about the other team, then it stands to reason to me that the opposing coach cannot defend the my team unless it is a lucky guess. remember he knows less. Expanding this like maybe your prof did in your classes :) Imagine two teams with no coaches and one is better than the other with all other things being equal...can we expect the more talented team win when NO coach influence? Now take those teams and let the weaker team know best the weak link of the better team...does that difference shrink? Not a lot of time to experiment and guess during a game about an opposing team and tendencies...better know that before the game. That is why they have films to study the other team and EACH player on the other team for tendencies and see if they can effectively take those tendencies away with the players they have. Obviously anyone can try to take things away on paper, but if you don't know the other team well...it is a guess and a couple of possession of guessing in the dark can be the game. I think there are many that feel the way you do, but I think all coaches coach better with more information than less...playing the odds rather than just trying something...unless you have superior talent...
 
Wade got Marquette a Final Four. Crean was along for the ride.

Who got Wade to Marquette? Half of coaching in major college basketball is recruiting. This isn't the NBA where Phil Jackson "lucked" into Jordan and Pippen or Kobe and Shaq (I think Phil was a great coach, just an example). Half the battle is recruiting the talent and the other half is getting them to play as a team. The coach is responsible to bring in the players who are capable of leading his team to the championship. Crean is a fool, no argument here, but that fool landed a player who took his team to the final 4. It's not a "reach" to state that the final 4 run obviously trumps Painters pair of sweet 16's.
 
Just can manipulate your definition of a good or great coach until you're blue in the face, but the fact is there is only one way the champ is crowned in this sport and that is through the tourney. The national championship/final 4 is the ultimate goal of any major program. If you're not advancing in the tourney then you aren't coming close to that goal and you are failing. Period. If your coaching style or recruiting is not conducive to tournament play then it is you that has to evolve.

ps- I'm not one of the "Painter haters" or "Keady haters".. far from it. But let's also not dismiss the importance of the tourney just because our trophy case is empty.
 
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Honestly, you lost me completely with the whole coaches not knowing about other teams in the NCAA tourney thing.

this should be easy then...do you think Matt and the Purdue players know John and the Michigan team tendencies and individual tendencies better than some hand selected team that they grab a last minute film that played against a whole different team than Purdue ever played and did things a lot different than Purdue for an NCAA game?. Again, the coaching effect is more when coaches know more IMO
 
this should be easy then...do you think Matt and the Purdue players know John and the Michigan team tendencies and individual tendencies better than some hand selected team that they grab a last minute film that played against a whole different team than Purdue ever played and did things a lot different than Purdue for an NCAA game?. Again, the coaching effect is more when coaches know more IMO
No, I think I know what you are trying to say, but you've still lost me. So do you also discount the entire first half of the season where you play out of conference teams? What about quick turnarounds, like Thursday and Saturday games the same week? Should games against new coaches within the conference be discounted too? What about teams that play a lot of freshmen? You get 3-4 days to prepare for your first round NCAA opponent. There is more film on teams than ever before. There is more than enough time to game plan. This is surely a strange argument that I have never heard before..
 
This could be an interesting topic for those on each side of the fence as far as CMP is concerned. Obviously, I'm not what many would consider a CMP basher, quite the opposite, but this topic may get to the heart of the matter. Or maybe not LOL. What players do you feel CMP has failed at.....and were these players considered great talent from the get go, or not? What players has CMP succeeded at getting the most out of..........what players have CMP to thank ? Just curious is all.......


Here's the deal Pit. I'm not a Painter basher. It gets old being called that for pointing out facts. For not licking his boots. I'm just a realist. I tell it like it is and some obviously can't handle it. When he does well, I say so. When he isn't, I say so. Right now...he's not getting the job done. Beating a bunch of teams we should beat and being rocked twice...once at home in a packed house is not doing well. It just isn't.

Your question about players can be so nuanced. I look at a players leaving a lot as a bad thing no matter how you slice it. If they were good, why did they leave? If they weren't, why did Painter bring them in? This can happen every now and then. But, when it happens often like it has been, much like IU now...it's not good. It can't be framed in a good way. It's either, you recruited the untalented guy who won't play...has social issues...can't get along...he he doesn't like our program or coaches for some reason. I find it odd that we think unanimously that players leaving IU means they suck, or Crean sucks, but when they leave here, it's no big deal and it's all the players fault.
 
Here's the deal Pit. I'm not a Painter basher. It gets old being called that for pointing out facts. For not licking his boots. I'm just a realist. I tell it like it is and some obviously can't handle it. When he does well, I say so. When he isn't, I say so. Right now...he's not getting the job done. Beating a bunch of teams we should beat and being rocked twice...once at home in a packed house is not doing well. It just isn't.

Your question about players can be so nuanced. I look at a players leaving a lot as a bad thing no matter how you slice it. If they were good, why did they leave? If they weren't, why did Painter bring them in? This can happen every now and then. But, when it happens often like it has been, much like IU now...it's not good. It can't be framed in a good way. It's either, you recruited the untalented guy who won't play...has social issues...can't get along...he he doesn't like our program or coaches for some reason. I find it odd that we think unanimously that players leaving IU means they suck, or Crean sucks, but when they leave here, it's no big deal and it's all the players fault.

So to get to the meat of the matter......you feel that CMP hasn't really helped, developed, etc many players at all, or that he has hurt more than he has helped? I am not trying to needle you or your beliefs, as a matter of fact, I suppose every coach has faced some criticism or not met the expectations, etc of the fanbase....it just happens. Hell, I have read comments from Duke fans before basically saying that they think he should retire! I also know that perspectives vary among fans.........so what may seem like realism to one fan is unrealistic to another. I appreciate your explanations.........even though I'm on the other side of the fence.
 
So to get to the meat of the matter......you feel that CMP hasn't really helped, developed, etc many players at all, or that he has hurt more than he has helped? I am not trying to needle you or your beliefs, as a matter of fact, I suppose every coach has faced some criticism or not met the expectations, etc of the fanbase....it just happens. Hell, I have read comments from Duke fans before basically saying that they think he should retire! I also know that perspectives vary among fans.........so what may seem like realism to one fan is unrealistic to another. I appreciate your explanations.........even though I'm on the other side of the fence.

And I accept/respect you from the other side of the fence. :)
Let's get a win tonight!!
 
No, I think I know what you are trying to say, but you've still lost me. So do you also discount the entire first half of the season where you play out of conference teams? What about quick turnarounds, like Thursday and Saturday games the same week? Should games against new coaches within the conference be discounted too? What about teams that play a lot of freshmen? You get 3-4 days to prepare for your first round NCAA opponent. There is more film on teams than ever before. There is more than enough time to game plan. This is surely a strange argument that I have never heard before..
No, I think I know what you are trying to say, but you've still lost me. So do you also discount the entire first half of the season where you play out of conference teams? What about quick turnarounds, like Thursday and Saturday games the same week? Should games against new coaches within the conference be discounted too? What about teams that play a lot of freshmen? You get 3-4 days to prepare for your first round NCAA opponent. There is more film on teams than ever before. There is more than enough time to game plan. This is surely a strange argument that I have never heard before..
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Generally, all of the major teams rack up wins against weaker teams in the early part of the season. In the early part of the season many coaches are still trying to learn their team as they beat inferior teams in many cases. In some cases the inferior teams are coached by coaches that have certain preferences in style and those could be known. Major players on those teams can be reviewed as you suggest, but how much do you think is sufficient scouting? It was standard protocol for Basil Mawby to scout each team 10 games if possible before playing them and that was high school. When I’ve scouted many , many years ago I can tell you that a game or so may provide misleading results. I can get tendencies of a team and players relative to the team that they are playing and the players at that time, but not as much as if I followed the team I was about to play more than a couple of games.

You mention 3-4 days to prepare for your first round NCAA game and that is true…and coaches are scrambling to get film. Perhaps you are aware they also call coaches about the teams if their relationship with the coaches are good enough to solicit their opinion? Why call other coaches if there is sufficient film to answer your questions? Because coaching is not a matter of fact that team A played this way against your opponent and therefore you can too with your personnel. Along those lines, what do you do when your films shows little relative to your team tendencies and player personnel in the film you see…when the film still leaves many questions? I can give you simple tendencies in attacking a zone press, man press, half court zone X and O stuff that are generalities, but all those are tempered by your own team and knowledge of the other team. Do you think that all players are “guarded” on the court the same by all teams? There exists different rules for different players for different games in many cases and all of those things is based upon previous knowledge. Consequently, my ability to structure an approach with a lesser team to beat a better team is enhanced with more knowledge and not less. If the other coach is just as effective with the same pertinent information and just as good as me the better players win. The opposite condition where neither coach has information will result in a win with the best players as well.

In all cases there is an interaction between players and teams as well as the main effects of players and teams which essentially suggests that several combinations between effective players and coaches are always at play and I would never suggest that a coach has little effect. I think coaches can have huge influence. I only suggest that a coach’s effect is magnified when the coach knows more than less and there exists no place of such magnitude than in conference play in comparison, where the coaches and players have a larger sample size and direct comparisons rather than just film or talking to other coaches. Hence, NCAA Tourney success is weighted more to players than coaches in comparison to conference play. That is my reasoning and it is fine to disagree, but I find that reasoning much more palatable to Keady’s success in conference while not being as successful in tourney play rather than Gene forgetting his basketball or running into something he has no idea how to attack due to something completely new and never experienced. I think without Gene's results, logic supports my reasoning. However, I know several thousand sit in a gym and see the same game and many have different ideas and so I’m not surprised that others would disagree…and that is fine, but it is what I have evolved to believing...
 
Who got Wade to Marquette? Half of coaching in major college basketball is recruiting. This isn't the NBA where Phil Jackson "lucked" into Jordan and Pippen or Kobe and Shaq (I think Phil was a great coach, just an example). Half the battle is recruiting the talent and the other half is getting them to play as a team. The coach is responsible to bring in the players who are capable of leading his team to the championship. Crean is a fool, no argument here, but that fool landed a player who took his team to the final 4. It's not a "reach" to state that the final 4 run obviously trumps Painters pair of sweet 16's.

There are many things that go into a recruit choosing a school and many of those are outside or should be outside the coach's influence. One example ...long ago with a person I am VERY familiar with was recruited by two major schools in Indiana. One school were the Big Ten letter was signed had many financial incentives and the other school had an older brother already enrolled in school. This person went to play ball for the other school where his older brother was at and the older brother was placed on scholarship on the ball team as well. Wherever Matt stands in recruiting abilities it is probably accurate to suggest that recruiting is better with the budget enhancement after the Mizzu than before discounting the baby boilers that allowed an unequal playing field for Matt to recruit since he as not the head coach...YET. Talent is hard to overcome, but talent is not solely the discretion of a coach picking and choosing who he wants and being a great salesman. The coach's effect is very important, but not the sole reason for most players
 
No, I think I know what you are trying to say, but you've still lost me. So do you also discount the entire first half of the season where you play out of conference teams? What about quick turnarounds, like Thursday and Saturday games the same week? Should games against new coaches within the conference be discounted too? What about teams that play a lot of freshmen? You get 3-4 days to prepare for your first round NCAA opponent. There is more film on teams than ever before. There is more than enough time to game plan. This is surely a strange argument that I have never heard before..
****************************
Generally, all of the major teams rack up wins against weaker teams in the early part of the season. In the early part of the season many coaches are still trying to learn their team as they beat inferior teams in many cases. In some cases the inferior teams are coached by coaches that have certain preferences in style and those could be known. Major players on those teams can be reviewed as you suggest, but how much do you think is sufficient scouting? It was standard protocol for Basil Mawby to scout each team 10 games if possible before playing them and that was high school. When I’ve scouted many , many years ago I can tell you that a game or so may provide misleading results. I can get tendencies of a team and players relative to the team that they are playing and the players at that time, but not as much as if I followed the team I was about to play more than a couple of games.

You mention 3-4 days to prepare for your first round NCAA game and that is true…and coaches are scrambling to get film. Perhaps you are aware they also call coaches about the teams if their relationship with the coaches are good enough to solicit their opinion? Why call other coaches if there is sufficient film to answer your questions? Because coaching is not a matter of fact that team A played this way against your opponent and therefore you can too with your personnel. Along those lines, what do you do when your films shows little relative to your team tendencies and player personnel in the film you see…when the film still leaves many questions? I can give you simple tendencies in attacking a zone press, man press, half court zone X and O stuff that are generalities, but all those are tempered by your own team and knowledge of the other team. Do you think that all players are “guarded” on the court the same by all teams? There exists different rules for different players for different games in many cases and all of those things is based upon previous knowledge. Consequently, my ability to structure an approach with a lesser team to beat a better team is enhanced with more knowledge and not less. If the other coach is just as effective with the same pertinent information and just as good as me the better players win. The opposite condition where neither coach has information will result in a win with the best players as well.

In all cases there is an interaction between players and teams as well as the main effects of players and teams which essentially suggests that several combinations between effective players and coaches are always at play and I would never suggest that a coach has little effect. I think coaches can have huge influence. I only suggest that a coach’s effect is magnified when the coach knows more than less and there exists no place of such magnitude than in conference play in comparison, where the coaches and players have a larger sample size and direct comparisons rather than just film or talking to other coaches. Hence, NCAA Tourney success is weighted more to players than coaches in comparison to conference play. That is my reasoning and it is fine to disagree, but I find that reasoning much more palatable to Keady’s success in conference while not being as successful in tourney play rather than Gene forgetting his basketball or running into something he has no idea how to attack due to something completely new and never experienced. I think without Gene's results, logic supports my reasoning. However, I know several thousand sit in a gym and see the same game and many have different ideas and so I’m not surprised that others would disagree…and that is fine, but it is what I have evolved to believing...
We will have to respectfully disagree on what constitutes a great coach. To me and many, many others, the term 'great' is reserved for coaches who win at a high rate and win championships, not some nuanced appreciation of film study or schemes.
 
We will have to respectfully disagree on what constitutes a great coach. To me and many, many others, the term 'great' is reserved for coaches who win at a high rate and win championships, not some nuanced appreciation of film study or schemes.
I believe as you said that your thoughts fit the general population and that is not a surprise to me at all, It won't be the first or last that others do not agree with me... :)
 
We will have to respectfully disagree on what constitutes a great coach. To me and many, many others, the term 'great' is reserved for coaches who win at a high rate and win championships, not some nuanced appreciation of film study or schemes.

Well as our university president said, we are only as good as our next game…so wouldn't worry about the past! sigh.
 
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