Tighter U.S.-Mexico border enforcement has backfired: Study

[gr8indoorsman]

sure ok. what am i wrong about?

In which thread? It's good to stick to your convictions, but man, you don't even recognize the possibility that you could be wrong.

 

[TopSecretBoiler]

In which thread? It's good to stick to your convictions, but man, you don't even recognize the possibility that you could be wrong.

I have freely admitted when I have misread or accidentally misrepresented something and I try to use appropriate sources and where possible try to stick to government reports unlike others on here who seek out the most extreme source they can find on the internet to support their ideas. I don't have many "convictions" so I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[Bruce1]

sure ok. what am i wrong about?

TSB, these liberals are classic. If you don't agree with them they try to shut you up with dumping never ending drivel. I'm giving up on trying to have a meaningful discussion with them because they are so shallow they can't do anything but answer questions with questions. Its too bad because i would really like to be able to understand and debate their positions if they had any. smh

 

[qazplm]

TSB, these liberals are classic. If you don't agree with them they try to shut you up with dumping never ending drivel. I'm giving up on trying to have a meaningful discussion with them because they are so shallow they can't do anything but answer questions with questions. Its too bad because i would really like to be able to understand and debate their positions if they had any. smh

the fact that you call Gr8 a liberal is hilarious.

 

[Purdue85]

A Princeton study concludes that we have basically shot ourselves in the foot with our border patrol policy over the last 30 years. Basically the study says that with our increased security we have made it harder for migrants to return to Mexico once they got here and had worked a while. It also concludes that the rate of migrants is probably decreasing due to lower birth rates in Mexico. Given this information, is a "wall" really necessary? I'm sure those who would build the wall and manage its surveillance would say that it is, but they would have a vested interest in its construction.


From 1986 to 2010, the United States spent $35 billion on border enforcement, but the net rate of undocumented population growth doubled. The rapid escalation of border enforcement over the past three decades has backfired as a strategy to control undocumented immigration between Mexico and the United States, according to new research that suggests further militarization of the border is a waste of money.

The rapid escalation of border enforcement over the past three decades has backfiredas a strategy to control undocumented immigration between Mexico and the United States,according to new research that suggests further militarization of the border is a waste of money.

“Rather than stopping undocumented Mexicans from coming to the U.S., greater enforcement stopped them from going home,” said Douglas Massey, one of the researchers and the Henry G. Bryant Professor ofSociology and Public Affairs at Princeton.

Advocated by bureaucrats, politicians, and pundits, the militarization of the U.S. border with Mexico transformed undocumented Mexican migration from a circular flow of predominantly male workers going to a few states into a settled population of about 11 million in all 50 states, Massey said. From 1986 to 2010, the United States spent $35 billion on border enforcement and the net rate of undocumented population growth doubled, he said.

“By the 1990s border enforcement had become a self-sustaining cycle in which rising apprehensions provided proof of the ongoing ‘illegal invasion’ to justify more resources allocated to border enforcement, which produced more apprehensions, even though the actual number of undocumented migrants seeking entry was not increasing,” Massey said.

The research is detailed in an article, “Why Border Enforcement Backfired,” that was published by the American Journal of Sociologyin March.

Princeton U notes that while advocates of increased border enforcement argued it would slow undocumented immigration, Massey said data gathered from communities throughout Mexico since 1987 on histories of migration and border crossings point to the opposite effect.

“Greater enforcement raised the costs of undocumented border crossing, which required undocumented migrants to stay longer in the United States to make a trip profitable,” he said. “Greater enforcement also increased the risk of death and injury during border crossing. As the costs and risks rose, migrants naturally minimized border crossing — not by remaining in Mexico but by staying in the United States.”

The authors say this is a good time to shift from a policy of immigration suppression to one of immigration management.

“Mass immigration from Mexico has ended and won’t be coming back owing to the decline of Mexican fertility from 6.5 children per woman in the 1960s to around 2.2 children per woman today, roughly replacement level,” Massey said. “Labor force growth in Mexico has dropped sharply and Mexico is now becoming an aging society in which fewer and fewer people are in the migration-prone ages of 15-30, so the pressure is off in a demographic sense.”

Most migration now is legal, Massey said, a situation that will continue so long as temporary work visas are matched with U.S. labor needs.

“The greatest need now is a path to legal status for the eleven million undocumented residents who are already here, who mostly have been here now for fifteen years or more and increasingly have U.S. citizen children,” he said. “If we were to grant these people permanent legal status, many would actually return home, secure in the knowledge they could re-enter whenever they want.”

Mary Waters, the M. E. Zukerman Professor of Sociology at Harvard University who studies immigration, said the research highlights the folly and waste of American immigration policy.

“This is a very important article that looks at a long sweep of history and provides the very best data and analysis to lead to a conclusion that most Americans would find very counter-intuitive,” said Waters, who wasn’t involved in the research. “Throwing money at militarizing the border led to the growth of undocumented immigration and if we had just done nothing, undocumented immigration would be much lower.”

Waters said policymakers should pay attention to this research.

“This is social science research at its very best — addressing an important public policy question with state of the art methods and painstakingly collected empirical data,” Waters said.

http://www.homelandsecuritynewswire...mexico-border-enforcement-has-backfired-study

YES! So let's just OPEN OUR BORDERS!

Just like Mexico.

A bunch of open border leftists want to keep the borders open. Imagine that.

 

[pastorjoeboggs]

YES! So let's just OPEN OUR BORDERS!

Just like Mexico.

A bunch of open border leftists want to keep the borders open. Imagine that.

Isn't there a middle ground here somewhere? Neither extreme - a so-called "open border" or Drumpf's asinine wall idea that Mexico is not going to pay for - is reasonable. Nor is any plan that starts with the deportation of 11+ million people.

There has to be a rational approach that meets somewhere in the middle.

 

[Bruce1]

Isn't there a middle ground here somewhere? Neither extreme - a so-called "open border" or Drumpf's asinine wall idea that Mexico is not going to pay for - is reasonable. Nor is any plan that starts with the deportation of 11+ million people.

There has to be a rational approach that meets somewhere in the middle.

For there to be a middle ground there has to be some level of respect and discussion on both side. If you were discussing this and used your derogatory approach with the other side as you just did then your chance of success is very low.
In any negotiation each side states their starting position and then begins to bargain. Trump has stated his starting position on many topics. In his opinion he would be negotiating from a very strong position and as a result his starting position sounds crazy to many who,have no experience. Then when he says he is willing to negotiate people claim he is backsliding and changing his position.
He has stated that he will build a wall and that Mexico will pay for it. Building a wall sounds like a technically impossible thing to do and any thought that Mexico would write a check is ludicrous. That said we certainly have the ability through technology to build a virtual wall that would be much more effective than what we now have. Paying for such a wall can be done in many ways including import fees on goods from Mexico or by a number of other methods that would raise revenues through our interaction with Mexico.
The bottom line is that both sides: liberals and conservatives, want the same things but disagree on how to accomplish them. I agree with you that there needs to be a middle ground but in this world of extremes it will be hard to accomplish.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

TSB, these liberals are classic. If you don't agree with them they try to shut you up with dumping never ending drivel. I'm giving up on trying to have a meaningful discussion with them because they are so shallow they can't do anything but answer questions with questions. Its too bad because i would really like to be able to understand and debate their positions if they had any. smh

I am as liberal as you are Chinese.

 

[Bruce1]

I am as liberal as you are Chinese.

Hmm. Against the wall which is a method to secure the boarder. Immigration reform to you means amnesty, think most illegals come thru tunnels and on boats. Looks like a liberal viewpoint to me bubba.

 

[qazplm]

Hmm. Against the wall which is a method to secure the boarder. Immigration reform to you means amnesty, think most illegals come thru tunnels and on boats. Looks like a liberal viewpoint to me bubba.

Lol of course it does.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

Hmm. Against the wall which is a method to secure the boarder. Immigration reform to you means amnesty, think most illegals come thru tunnels and on boats. Looks like a liberal viewpoint to me bubba.

It's not what I think. It's what my friends on the border patrol tell me, and what my experience working with the coast guard and living two miles from the border have shown me. But I have no idea what is so liberal about either of those views. Many Republicans think the wall is idiotic.

That you think Trump and his actual beliefs are conservative is what's really funny, bubba.

 

[TopSecretBoiler]

every illegal i know came across legally on some kind of work or education visa and just never left. Every single one. Now there is some inherent bias there due to the kind of people I hang out with, but visa reform needs to be a part of this. It's a total abuse of the immigration system, not just the border problems. It's a huge burden on local governments. You can say drumpf or shillary like a bunch of retards, but that isn't a solution. The absurd wall talk has at least generated conversation on what the realities of the situation are. I know it's led me to do a lot of research. Hopefully that will lead to something reasonable, although based on the conversations here...

 

[Bruce1]

every illegal i know came across legally on some kind of work or education visa and just never left. Every single one. Now there is some inherent bias there due to the kind of people I hang out with, but visa reform needs to be a part of this. It's a total abuse of the immigration system, not just the border problems. It's a huge burden on local governments. You can say drumpf or shillary like a bunch of retards, but that isn't a solution. The absurd wall talk has at least generated conversation on what the realities of the situation are. I know it's led me to do a lot of research. Hopefully that will lead to something reasonable, although based on the conversations here...

How many student visas are there vs illegals in the country? I think most walk across. My opinion.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

Year H1B H1B1 Total
1990 794 na 794
1991 51,882 na 51,882
1992 44,290 na 44,290
1993 35,818 na 35,818
1994 42,843 na 42,843
1995 51,832 na 51,832
1996 58,327 na 58,327
1997 80,547 na 80,547
1998 91,360 na 91,360
1999 116,513 na 116,513
2000 133,290 na 133,290
2001 161,643 na 161,643
2002 118,352 na 118,352
2003 107,196 na 107,196
2004 138,965 72 139,037
2005 124,099 275 124,374
2006 135,421 440 135,861
2007 154,053 639 154,692
2008 129,464 719 130,183
2009 110,367 621 110,988
2010 117,409 419 117,828
2011 129,134 418 129,552
2012 135,530 461 135,991
2013 153,223 571 153,794
2014 161,369 870 162,239


So 162,000 work visas in 2014.

Year Number of F-1 visas issued Number of F-2 visas issued Number of F-3 visas issued Ratio of F-2 visas to F-1 visas Percentage growth in F-1 visas issued Notes
1997 266,483 22,099 0 8.29% no data
1998 251,565 21,845 0 8.68% -5.59%
1999 262,542 22,893 0 8.71% +4.36%
2000 284,053 24,891 0 8.76% +8.19%
2001 293,357 26,160 0 8.94% +3.27%
2002 234,322 22,212 0 9.48% -20.12% September 11 attacks.
2003 215,695 19,885 0 9.22% -7.94%
2004 218,898 18,893 16 8.63% +1.48%
2005 237,890 18,061 42 7.59% +8.67% T
2006 273,870 20,748 19 7.58% +15.12%
2007 298,393 22,036 119 7.38% +8.95%
2008 340,711 23,193 519 6.81% +14.18%
2009 331,208 21,817 773 6.58% -2.78% I
2010 385,210 25,220 887 6.55% +16.30%
2011 447,410 27,703 959 6.19% +16.14%
2012 486,900 27,561 792 5.66% +8.82% .
2013 534,320 29,139 678 5.45% +11.58%
2014 595,569 31,732 403 5.33% +9.77%

Total F visas issued in 2014 - 626,000


Total of more than 785,000 work and student visas issued in 2014. The wall does nothing to curb abuse of this program.

The interesting thing about opinions is that they are easily refuted by readily available facts.

 

[kescwi]

Year H1B H1B1 Total
1990 794 na 794
1991 51,882 na 51,882
1992 44,290 na 44,290
1993 35,818 na 35,818
1994 42,843 na 42,843
1995 51,832 na 51,832
1996 58,327 na 58,327
1997 80,547 na 80,547
1998 91,360 na 91,360
1999 116,513 na 116,513
2000 133,290 na 133,290
2001 161,643 na 161,643
2002 118,352 na 118,352
2003 107,196 na 107,196
2004 138,965 72 139,037
2005 124,099 275 124,374
2006 135,421 440 135,861
2007 154,053 639 154,692
2008 129,464 719 130,183
2009 110,367 621 110,988
2010 117,409 419 117,828
2011 129,134 418 129,552
2012 135,530 461 135,991
2013 153,223 571 153,794
2014 161,369 870 162,239


So 162,000 work visas in 2014.

Year Number of F-1 visas issued Number of F-2 visas issued Number of F-3 visas issued Ratio of F-2 visas to F-1 visas Percentage growth in F-1 visas issued Notes
1997 266,483 22,099 0 8.29% no data
1998 251,565 21,845 0 8.68% -5.59%
1999 262,542 22,893 0 8.71% +4.36%
2000 284,053 24,891 0 8.76% +8.19%
2001 293,357 26,160 0 8.94% +3.27%
2002 234,322 22,212 0 9.48% -20.12% September 11 attacks.
2003 215,695 19,885 0 9.22% -7.94%
2004 218,898 18,893 16 8.63% +1.48%
2005 237,890 18,061 42 7.59% +8.67% T
2006 273,870 20,748 19 7.58% +15.12%
2007 298,393 22,036 119 7.38% +8.95%
2008 340,711 23,193 519 6.81% +14.18%
2009 331,208 21,817 773 6.58% -2.78% I
2010 385,210 25,220 887 6.55% +16.30%
2011 447,410 27,703 959 6.19% +16.14%
2012 486,900 27,561 792 5.66% +8.82% .
2013 534,320 29,139 678 5.45% +11.58%
2014 595,569 31,732 403 5.33% +9.77%

Total F visas issued in 2014 - 626,000


Total of more than 785,000 work and student visas issued in 2014. The wall does nothing to curb abuse of this program.

The interesting thing about opinions is that they are easily refuted by readily available facts.

Nooooo being angry is fun. Walls, policy... blah blah blah, these people are ruining my life, I see them every morning on my way to work on their mowers, with their sthil backpack blowers and edgers... Noooo my life isn't what it should be and these people are the problem!!!