This can't be good.
- Thread starter TheCainer
- Start date
This is going to be tied to the Russians. Whether their military directly caused this (unlikely), or separatists obtained SA-11 or SA-17 systems from Russia (likely) and employed them carelessly (likely), it's not going to be good for Putin. Make no mistake, a Stinger or shoulder-launched weapon that's widely available to militants world-wide doesn't shootdown an airliner at 32,000 feet. This was done by a no-sh&% SAM.
Putin scares the be jeebers out of me. The similarities between he and another mad man Hitler are scary.
Hitler was determined to get Germany back all the area they lost after WWI, Putin wants to get the Russian empire back to pre Cold War.
Hitler tested the waters by invading/annexing areas that were made of mostly German decent. Ditto Putin.
Poland to Hitler is Ukraine to Putin.
Hitler made a pact with his greatest threat-Stalin. Obama to Putin " I'll be more tolerant after I'm re-elected".
Putins aggression started soon after his talk with Obama.
Putins France will be?
Hitler was determined to get Germany back all the area they lost after WWI, Putin wants to get the Russian empire back to pre Cold War.
Hitler tested the waters by invading/annexing areas that were made of mostly German decent. Ditto Putin.
Poland to Hitler is Ukraine to Putin.
Hitler made a pact with his greatest threat-Stalin. Obama to Putin " I'll be more tolerant after I'm re-elected".
Putins aggression started soon after his talk with Obama.
Putins France will be?
Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania. JMO.
Doubt he goes that far.
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Doubt he goes that far.
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Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan too. Especially the latter two. Kyrgyzstan denied the extension of our base there due to pressure from the Russian government. This downed aircraft is directly tied to the Russian government. This wasn't some shoulder fired rocket, this was a SAM that was carelessly implemented on the battlefield. Meanwhile Putin is going on with life because he knows the West will do nothing.
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Putin scares the be jeebers out of me. The similarities between he and another mad man Hitler are scary.
Hitler
was determined to get Germany back all the area they lost after WWI,
Putin wants to get the Russian empire back to pre Cold War.
Hitler tested the waters by invading/annexing areas that were made of mostly German decent. Ditto Putin.
Poland to Hitler is Ukraine to Putin.
Hitler made a pact with his greatest threat-Stalin. Obama to Putin " I'll be more tolerant after I'm re-elected".
Putins aggression started soon after his talk with Obama.
Putins France will be?
I'm with you on Putin. I would imagine you would find that if you asked Putin about Stalin and Hitler he probably idolizes them. Putin's also got the ability to lie and back-stab like those two, people are being very naive if they trust anything he says or does. Perhaps we have seen the last Olympics before the next world war, just like Germany hosted it in 1936. It's too bad that Winston Churchill isn't still around to keep tabs on this POS.
Hitler
was determined to get Germany back all the area they lost after WWI,
Putin wants to get the Russian empire back to pre Cold War.
Hitler tested the waters by invading/annexing areas that were made of mostly German decent. Ditto Putin.
Poland to Hitler is Ukraine to Putin.
Hitler made a pact with his greatest threat-Stalin. Obama to Putin " I'll be more tolerant after I'm re-elected".
Putins aggression started soon after his talk with Obama.
Putins France will be?
I'm with you on Putin. I would imagine you would find that if you asked Putin about Stalin and Hitler he probably idolizes them. Putin's also got the ability to lie and back-stab like those two, people are being very naive if they trust anything he says or does. Perhaps we have seen the last Olympics before the next world war, just like Germany hosted it in 1936. It's too bad that Winston Churchill isn't still around to keep tabs on this POS.
very few similarities
Putin is nothing like Hitler. He's obviously dangerous and someone who clearly would like to return to a certain environment, but he also clearly understands that Russia needs Europe and the world as much, if not more than, the opposite.
Hitler didn't see things that way at all. Putin wants Russia to be strong again, Hitler wanted to dominate the world, bit of a difference.
Putin is not invading Poland, heck he's not even going to invade the Baltic states. Hitler would have invaded Ukraine already.
But I love the Obama = Stalin link you threw in there.
Putin is nothing like Hitler. He's obviously dangerous and someone who clearly would like to return to a certain environment, but he also clearly understands that Russia needs Europe and the world as much, if not more than, the opposite.
Hitler didn't see things that way at all. Putin wants Russia to be strong again, Hitler wanted to dominate the world, bit of a difference.
Putin is not invading Poland, heck he's not even going to invade the Baltic states. Hitler would have invaded Ukraine already.
But I love the Obama = Stalin link you threw in there.
Re: very few similarities
Stairway may be correct: the various -stans are a more likely target if he really decides to push his dream of recreating a Soviet republic. As you've pointed out, qaz, going into the Balkans is foolish given their status in NATO. Of course, nothing says one can't be foolish, but I doubt he goes that far, particularly given how he's "eased" his rhetoric - at least publicly - in the face of sanctions.
And yeah, Putin's not Hitler.
Stairway may be correct: the various -stans are a more likely target if he really decides to push his dream of recreating a Soviet republic. As you've pointed out, qaz, going into the Balkans is foolish given their status in NATO. Of course, nothing says one can't be foolish, but I doubt he goes that far, particularly given how he's "eased" his rhetoric - at least publicly - in the face of sanctions.
And yeah, Putin's not Hitler.
Re: very few similarities
Putin is nothing like Hitler. He's obviously dangerous
and someone who clearly would like to return to a certain environment,
but he also clearly understands that Russia needs Europe and the world
as much, if not more than, the opposite.
Hitler didn't see things
that way at all. Putin wants Russia to be strong again, Hitler wanted
to dominate the world, bit of a difference.
Putin is not invading Poland, heck he's not even going to invade the Baltic states. Hitler would have invaded Ukraine already.
But I love the Obama = Stalin link you threw in there.
I hope you are right about Putin but to say he is nothing like Hitler is presuming more than the evidence suggests to date. What dictators in the last century have invaded other countries to supposedly protect the ethnic people of their own country? Putin and Hitler are all I can come up with. Who else have you got?
Putin is nothing like Hitler. He's obviously dangerous
and someone who clearly would like to return to a certain environment,
but he also clearly understands that Russia needs Europe and the world
as much, if not more than, the opposite.
Hitler didn't see things
that way at all. Putin wants Russia to be strong again, Hitler wanted
to dominate the world, bit of a difference.
Putin is not invading Poland, heck he's not even going to invade the Baltic states. Hitler would have invaded Ukraine already.
But I love the Obama = Stalin link you threw in there.
I hope you are right about Putin but to say he is nothing like Hitler is presuming more than the evidence suggests to date. What dictators in the last century have invaded other countries to supposedly protect the ethnic people of their own country? Putin and Hitler are all I can come up with. Who else have you got?
Re: very few similarities
Pretty much any invasion across West-generated borders in the Middle East has been to protect Shi'a/Sunni interests.
Qaz's point is correct: Putin is not trying to establish supremacy across a continent, at least not yet. Saying he's Hitler is alarmist at best, ignorant at worst.
Pretty much any invasion across West-generated borders in the Middle East has been to protect Shi'a/Sunni interests.
Qaz's point is correct: Putin is not trying to establish supremacy across a continent, at least not yet. Saying he's Hitler is alarmist at best, ignorant at worst.
Re: very few similarities
I don't see a problem in being alarmed about Putin's action-you should be too and I don't see what is wrong with making the analogy between Putin and Hitler as there are parallels between them, and it is alarming. I don't see how it is being ignorant.
I know Putin is the darling of the conservative right currently but he is very dangerous and dislikes the US intensely. I even see now where one conservative group is maintaining that the jet simply crashed on its own and was not shot down. So, don't let your hatred of Obama cloud you vision, which I think is happening with a lot of people.
BTW, what established mid-east country or any other country for that matter has attacked another foreign country under the guise of protecting the invading countries ethnic minority in the last 100 years?
This post was edited on 7/18 1:53 PM by Bill4411
I don't see a problem in being alarmed about Putin's action-you should be too and I don't see what is wrong with making the analogy between Putin and Hitler as there are parallels between them, and it is alarming. I don't see how it is being ignorant.
I know Putin is the darling of the conservative right currently but he is very dangerous and dislikes the US intensely. I even see now where one conservative group is maintaining that the jet simply crashed on its own and was not shot down. So, don't let your hatred of Obama cloud you vision, which I think is happening with a lot of people.
BTW, what established mid-east country or any other country for that matter has attacked another foreign country under the guise of protecting the invading countries ethnic minority in the last 100 years?
This post was edited on 7/18 1:53 PM by Bill4411
Re: very few similarities
Putin is nothing like Hitler.
--------------------------------------------------
Way to early to say that. I hope you are right, but the early similarities are disturbing.
Churchill was the only one who saw Hitler as the threat he ended up being.
Putin is nothing like Hitler.
--------------------------------------------------
Way to early to say that. I hope you are right, but the early similarities are disturbing.
Churchill was the only one who saw Hitler as the threat he ended up being.
Re: very few similarities
Hitler is amazingly in so many ways as we all might be speaking German if he didn't have such a disturbed view of race; he seemed to hate about everybody but for his fantasy Aryan race. Many American's in the 1930's admired him for his ability to get Germany out of the depths of the Depression, including Henry Ford and Charles Lindbergh and ignored the other unpleasant facts about him. If Hitler would have just been halfway nice to the Russian people he could have easily defeated Stalin. Thank God there were still people like Churchill and Roosevelt around to lead us.
Hitler is amazingly in so many ways as we all might be speaking German if he didn't have such a disturbed view of race; he seemed to hate about everybody but for his fantasy Aryan race. Many American's in the 1930's admired him for his ability to get Germany out of the depths of the Depression, including Henry Ford and Charles Lindbergh and ignored the other unpleasant facts about him. If Hitler would have just been halfway nice to the Russian people he could have easily defeated Stalin. Thank God there were still people like Churchill and Roosevelt around to lead us.
Re: very few similarities
Otherwise, if you think the conservative right really likes Putin, you truly are an idiot. I don't like Putin. I don't like what he's done. I don't like how Obama has tried managing Putin's actions.
But I'm smart enough to recognize the difference between Putin and Hitler.
This post was edited on 7/18 5:43 PM by gr8indoorsman
Let's see: Iraq invaded Iran to supress disgruntled Shi'a for the benefit of the Sunni minority in Iran, and then Iran retaliated and went on the offensive to liberate the oppressed Shi'a majority in Iraq. That was easy.
Otherwise, if you think the conservative right really likes Putin, you truly are an idiot. I don't like Putin. I don't like what he's done. I don't like how Obama has tried managing Putin's actions.
But I'm smart enough to recognize the difference between Putin and Hitler.
This post was edited on 7/18 5:43 PM by gr8indoorsman
Re: very few similarities
Boy you love personal attacks don't you gr8. You have called me both ignorant and now an idiot-you are the insult king I'll give you that. In any event you need to read more if you don't think there are conservatives in America who don't admire Putin; hopefully you don't.
Your example of Iran and Iraq may be valid as Iraq attacked Iran thinking they would be attacked by Iran first but that was more of a defensive strategy than an attempt to annex the Iranian territory into its country as Hitler did and now Putin appears to be doing in the Ukraine and likely Belarus, Moldova and Transnistra. Of course Saddam admired Hitler so maybe he did think he could take the country into Iraq.
Putin isn't stupid but will push us and the world as far as he can until we put a stop to it. He didn't want that airliner shot down-that was a bad outcome to arming the insurgents and wasn't foreseen. I don't think that Russia has enough power to take over Eastern Europe at least I hope not but if the world reacts weakly enough to what has happened it could, its happened before.
Boy you love personal attacks don't you gr8. You have called me both ignorant and now an idiot-you are the insult king I'll give you that. In any event you need to read more if you don't think there are conservatives in America who don't admire Putin; hopefully you don't.
Your example of Iran and Iraq may be valid as Iraq attacked Iran thinking they would be attacked by Iran first but that was more of a defensive strategy than an attempt to annex the Iranian territory into its country as Hitler did and now Putin appears to be doing in the Ukraine and likely Belarus, Moldova and Transnistra. Of course Saddam admired Hitler so maybe he did think he could take the country into Iraq.
Putin isn't stupid but will push us and the world as far as he can until we put a stop to it. He didn't want that airliner shot down-that was a bad outcome to arming the insurgents and wasn't foreseen. I don't think that Russia has enough power to take over Eastern Europe at least I hope not but if the world reacts weakly enough to what has happened it could, its happened before.
Re: very few similarities
Being ignorant means you don't know something because you haven't invested the time to learn it (whether by choice or otherwise). And I said it was "alarmist at best, ignorant at worst." Read what you want. IMO, you were probably being overly alarmist rather than ignorant, but I really don't care either way. I don't know anyone - literally anyone - who likes or admires Putin, and I work in the military, which is about as right wing as it gets.
Anyway, it's really not my intent to offend anyone, but your statement about Putin was inflammatory and idiotic. Consider that I'm criticizing what you said, not you personally as that's my intent.
I don't think the Russians are in any position to even consider taking on NATO. I made the same statements a few months ago and got called out on the by qaz, and he's probably right. That's why I said an attack for territory on the -stans is more likely, because the precedent is set that NATO/UN will not intervene to stop a military occupation of a state they don't really care about (Georgia, Crimean territory which is, at worst, disputed).
Obama is slow-rolling everything with respect to foreign affairs, and it's ultimately causing all kinds of violence and loss of life but since all of that is happening to "others," we, as Americans, don't care. I'm torn as to how I feel about all of it because some of it is preventable but some of it is not and has been going on for decades.
I do think the Russians are behind this in some way, as I said. Likely in that they gave arms directly to or facilitated the separatists being able to capture a BUK from the Ukranian defense forces.
Being ignorant means you don't know something because you haven't invested the time to learn it (whether by choice or otherwise). And I said it was "alarmist at best, ignorant at worst." Read what you want. IMO, you were probably being overly alarmist rather than ignorant, but I really don't care either way. I don't know anyone - literally anyone - who likes or admires Putin, and I work in the military, which is about as right wing as it gets.
Anyway, it's really not my intent to offend anyone, but your statement about Putin was inflammatory and idiotic. Consider that I'm criticizing what you said, not you personally as that's my intent.
I don't think the Russians are in any position to even consider taking on NATO. I made the same statements a few months ago and got called out on the by qaz, and he's probably right. That's why I said an attack for territory on the -stans is more likely, because the precedent is set that NATO/UN will not intervene to stop a military occupation of a state they don't really care about (Georgia, Crimean territory which is, at worst, disputed).
Obama is slow-rolling everything with respect to foreign affairs, and it's ultimately causing all kinds of violence and loss of life but since all of that is happening to "others," we, as Americans, don't care. I'm torn as to how I feel about all of it because some of it is preventable but some of it is not and has been going on for decades.
I do think the Russians are behind this in some way, as I said. Likely in that they gave arms directly to or facilitated the separatists being able to capture a BUK from the Ukranian defense forces.
Re: very few similarities
Germany couldn't get across the English Channel, I sincerely doubt they ever would have been able to cross the Atlantic let alone have the resources needed to no only conquer the US but then occupy it. We were never in danger of being forced to speak German. Same goes with their invasion of Russia, yes the Red Army fell back to Moscow and were not ready for a war of that magnitude but about the time Germany reached its logistical limits the Red Army had regrouped and the reality of the USSR's massive man power pool and raw material advantages took over and with it Germany's inevitable defeat.
As for similarities between the two, I don't know. I can see where it would be easy to find similarities if you want to, particularly each rising politically in the turmoil after the collapse of empire and then wishing to restore their nations to some perceived, glorified, dominant position in the world but I think the world has moved beyond the old notions of Empire and conquering nations so it hard for me to see Putin trying to take on the world militarily.
It's not Putin and the Russian military that are troubling, it's both of those along with the most important part, Russian energy. Russia is a threat to U$D hegemony if it decides to trade energy in rubles and ignore the U$D role as the worlds reserve currency. IMHO that is the threat, not that the Russian military is large enough to conquer the world but that it is large enough to protect Russia if it attacks the USA where it will hurt most, economically. Let's remember, the Cold War was won using economics and I bet Putin is aware of that.
Germany couldn't get across the English Channel, I sincerely doubt they ever would have been able to cross the Atlantic let alone have the resources needed to no only conquer the US but then occupy it. We were never in danger of being forced to speak German. Same goes with their invasion of Russia, yes the Red Army fell back to Moscow and were not ready for a war of that magnitude but about the time Germany reached its logistical limits the Red Army had regrouped and the reality of the USSR's massive man power pool and raw material advantages took over and with it Germany's inevitable defeat.
As for similarities between the two, I don't know. I can see where it would be easy to find similarities if you want to, particularly each rising politically in the turmoil after the collapse of empire and then wishing to restore their nations to some perceived, glorified, dominant position in the world but I think the world has moved beyond the old notions of Empire and conquering nations so it hard for me to see Putin trying to take on the world militarily.
It's not Putin and the Russian military that are troubling, it's both of those along with the most important part, Russian energy. Russia is a threat to U$D hegemony if it decides to trade energy in rubles and ignore the U$D role as the worlds reserve currency. IMHO that is the threat, not that the Russian military is large enough to conquer the world but that it is large enough to protect Russia if it attacks the USA where it will hurt most, economically. Let's remember, the Cold War was won using economics and I bet Putin is aware of that.
Re: very few similarities
What many people often forget about WW2 is that Russia was actually an ally/neutral to Germany at the beginning. Hitler's massive mistake was to break that off and invade Russia. Nearly 1 million Axis troops died just in Stalingrad, let alone how many resources (tanks, planes, etc.) were lost in the process. And not only was it a huge mistake for Hitler to invade, he was also adamant they never retreat, even when the outcome was clear. If Germany did not invade Russia, the probably would have taken over Europe. The Nazis never really viewed an invasion of the US as realistic.
I agree with your opinion of Putin/Hitler comparison. I don't think Putin and the Nazis/Hitler really have an overarching list of common goals. Yes, do they have a few things in common like wanting to restore pride in their country, be powerful, limit freedom of speech, etc? Sure, but you can say that about a lot of people, it doesn't mean they are like Nazis.
And as you mention, the troubling thing in all of this is Russia's resources. Europe's response has not been light so far, but it's also not nearly as strong as the US. The Netherlands, which was hit the hardest amongst casualties, relies on Russia for importing, much of which is energy related. Europe as a whole relies on Russia for 25% of its natural gas/oil.
What many people often forget about WW2 is that Russia was actually an ally/neutral to Germany at the beginning. Hitler's massive mistake was to break that off and invade Russia. Nearly 1 million Axis troops died just in Stalingrad, let alone how many resources (tanks, planes, etc.) were lost in the process. And not only was it a huge mistake for Hitler to invade, he was also adamant they never retreat, even when the outcome was clear. If Germany did not invade Russia, the probably would have taken over Europe. The Nazis never really viewed an invasion of the US as realistic.
I agree with your opinion of Putin/Hitler comparison. I don't think Putin and the Nazis/Hitler really have an overarching list of common goals. Yes, do they have a few things in common like wanting to restore pride in their country, be powerful, limit freedom of speech, etc? Sure, but you can say that about a lot of people, it doesn't mean they are like Nazis.
And as you mention, the troubling thing in all of this is Russia's resources. Europe's response has not been light so far, but it's also not nearly as strong as the US. The Netherlands, which was hit the hardest amongst casualties, relies on Russia for importing, much of which is energy related. Europe as a whole relies on Russia for 25% of its natural gas/oil.
If Putin were REALLY
looking to take over countries, he'd be spending a LOT more than he has on modernizing his military, because the Russian military is, at best, able to defend it's borders...but it's got a lot of aging equipment, severe logistical limitations, and morale and training isn't exactly high level these days either.
looking to take over countries, he'd be spending a LOT more than he has on modernizing his military, because the Russian military is, at best, able to defend it's borders...but it's got a lot of aging equipment, severe logistical limitations, and morale and training isn't exactly high level these days either.
As the saying goes
You don't have to be the fastest antelope in the jungle, just don't be the slowest. Russia's military is more than capable of dealing with any of the former Soviet states, the territories they would be most likely to invade.
You don't have to be the fastest antelope in the jungle, just don't be the slowest. Russia's military is more than capable of dealing with any of the former Soviet states, the territories they would be most likely to invade.
If you overestimate your foes you will be surprised at how weak they were, if you underestimate then you will be surprised at how strong they are.
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dont agree
depending on what you mean by "capable."
Any of the Stans would be at least as problematic as their invasion of Afghanistan (back when they DID have an effective military), if not more so.
I think an invasion of Ukraine as a whole would be pretty draining on them.
I think more than one would be so prohibitive as to be near impossible.
I suppose a few of the smaller states might be doable...Belarus would almost join back up with them willingly...the Baltic states (ignoring NATO membership) would probably be doable.
After that, I mean heck Chechnya is still not fully under control.
depending on what you mean by "capable."
Any of the Stans would be at least as problematic as their invasion of Afghanistan (back when they DID have an effective military), if not more so.
I think an invasion of Ukraine as a whole would be pretty draining on them.
I think more than one would be so prohibitive as to be near impossible.
I suppose a few of the smaller states might be doable...Belarus would almost join back up with them willingly...the Baltic states (ignoring NATO membership) would probably be doable.
After that, I mean heck Chechnya is still not fully under control.
