The defense, and why it will never be successful….

[pboiler18]

To me…you’re taking average to above average athletes, giving them way too much to think about and do…and then asking them to stop the same or better athletes who have 1, maybe maximum 2 jobs to think about on a play. If we had NFL DBs, OLBs who could rush and cover and any LB presence…this would still be a challenging defense to be successful with IMO.

I liken it to managing a team for office or admin work. If you have 3 points in a process and 6 different decisions and steps that need to be made at ever point and then 2 subsequent points dependent on quick decisions on the choices made at the first level…you’re going to be rife with mistakes. Sure, you’ll learn from those mistakes eventually but your team might not have the mental (physical for FB) capacity to make the right decision every time to be efficient and successful.

This coach needs to scrap this complicated defense and put in something that’s simple and works IMO. We have players except at LB, IMo…we can stop the run at times, rush the passer at times and even cover at times. To expect every level to make the correct play and decision every time for every variable just isn’t happening here. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Is our new coach insane? Stubborn? Already willing to go down with the sinking ship?

 

[New Pal Boiler]

To me…you’re taking average to above average athletes, giving them way too much to think about and do…and then asking them to stop the same or better athletes who have 1, maybe maximum 2 jobs to think about on a play. If we had NFL DBs, OLBs who could rush and cover and any LB presence…this would still be a challenging defense to be successful with IMO.

I liken it to managing a team for office or admin work. If you have 3 points in a process and 6 different decisions and steps that need to be made at ever point and then 2 subsequent points dependent on quick decisions on the choices made at the first level…you’re going to be rife with mistakes. Sure, you’ll learn from those mistakes eventually but your team might not have the mental (physical for FB) capacity to make the right decision every time to be efficient and successful.

This coach needs to scrap this complicated defense and put in something that’s simple and works IMO. We have players except at LB, IMo…we can stop the run at times, rush the passer at times and even cover at times. To expect every level to make the correct play and decision every time for every variable just isn’t happening here. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Is our new coach insane? Stubborn? Already willing to go down with the sinking ship?

Can we give Ron English a $200K raise to come back ?

 

[PaBoiler78]

Can we give Ron English a $200K raise to come back ?

it's all about having talented players, if we had nd's HC, their OC Parker, DC Golden we'd prolly have the same record.

 

[pboiler18]

it's all about having talented players, if we had nd's HC, their OC Parker, DC Golden we'd prolly have the same record.

On paper, this team is more talented stars/recruiting service wise than last years. We of course miss Jones and AOC but 3 of the 5 OL were back, all of the WR starters were contributors under Brohm, the RB room is as good as it has been in 20 years, the DL has 3 4 stars starting on it and the DBs were definitely better than what we had for most of Brohm tenure.

They aren’t getting lined up properly because they aren’t shown how…or it’s not sinking in. They aren’t playing disciplined because they aren’t being taught it. They aren’t assignment sound because they are asked to think instead of react.

Of course some teams we play are more talented…that didnt stop us under Tiller or Brohm!

 

[purduepat1969]

On paper, this team is more talented stars/recruiting service wise than last years. We of course miss Jones and AOC but 3 of the 5 OL were back, all of the WR starters were contributors under Brohm, the RB room is as good as it has been in 20 years, the DL has 3 4 stars starting on it and the DBs were definitely better than what we had for most of Brohm tenure.

They aren’t getting lined up properly because they aren’t shown how…or it’s not sinking in. They aren’t playing disciplined because they aren’t being taught it. They aren’t assignment sound because they are asked to think instead of react.

Of course some teams we play are more talented…that didnt stop us under Tiller or Brohm!

The only WR who was getting minutes last year was Sheffield. There's a reason why Burks and Yaseen didn't play much for Brohm. They're just not all that good at getting open consistently. And we really have no receiver Card can throw it up to like Bell or Wright. It's just not a very good WR room...

To me, the unit that has a bit of explaining to do is the defense. No real reason why that group should be that bad...

 

[pboiler18]

The only WR who was getting minutes last year was Sheffield. There's a reason why Burks and Yaseen didn't play much for Brohm. They're just not all that good at getting open consistently. And we really have no receiver Card can throw it up to like Bell or Wright. It's just not a very good WR room...

To me, the unit that has a bit of explaining to do is the defense. No real reason why that group should be that bad...

I dont think many wide receivers…and especially ones that would come to Purdue would get open in this offense. Route and scheme wise we aren’t doing a ton to help anybody get space. I think Burks and Mock are our best guys. We are at a disadvantage when we take 45 off the field IMO. Did it too many times with good drives going on Saturday and did it in previous weeks too. Was fine when Tracy was healthy but Downing isn’t t dynamic enough to do it on his own and the OL is t good enough to help.

DL is too inconsistent vs the run. OLBs being asked to do things they just physically can’t do. DBs asked to single cover who can’t (looking at 21 and 10) and a FS asked to play on literally the opposite side of the 50 on the play after a touchback.

I think we’d need a literal defense full of NFL guys playing a FCS school to make these ideas and schemes look like winners n

 

[HUD628]

There aren't any good players out there. We have a bunch of 4 stars...who all are here for PT because they couldn't get it at their original school. We're taking the rejects from lower level SEC schools and Penn St and expecting them to be awesome because they were 4 stars out of high school. There is not one good LB on the roster. Walters has to have an opportunity to get some real players. I will say it is maddening that he constantly has Allen covering guys one on one though. Woof

 

[purduepat1969]

There aren't any good players out there. We have a bunch of 4 stars...who all are here for PT because they couldn't get it at their original school. We're taking the rejects from lower level SEC schools and Penn St and expecting them to be awesome because they were 4 stars out of high school. There is not one good LB on the roster. Walters has to have an opportunity to get some real players. I will say it is maddening that he constantly has Allen covering guys one on one though. Woof

Uhm, Wilson has been pretty darn good (Penn St). And so has Markevius Brown (Ole Miss). Brevard has done a nice job (Penn St). Not sure what you're talking about there.

Thienemen is a stud. Kane has been pretty good. Jenkins is good. Scourton is OK.

Talent isn't the biggest problem with this defense. We're asking guys to do things they aren't really good at with this scheme. Cam Allen is just not good covering guys. And has shown it over and over again. Yet he's out there covering Harrison Jr on several plays yesterday?

Ohio State was down their top 2 running backs yesterday. Instead of playing a zone defense or cover 2 and making them run the ball, we're playing an aggressive one on one man defense against the best WR group in the nation. It defies logic.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Uhm, Wilson has been pretty darn good (Penn St). And so has Markevius Brown (Ole Miss). Brevard has done a nice job (Penn St). Not sure what you're talking about there.

Thienemen is a stud. Kane has been pretty good. Jenkins is good. Scourton is OK.

Talent isn't the biggest problem with this defense. We're asking guys to do things they aren't really good at with this scheme. Cam Allen is just not good covering guys. And has shown it over and over again. Yet he's out there covering Harrison Jr on several plays yesterday?

Ohio State was down their top 2 running backs yesterday. Instead of playing a zone defense or cover 2 and making them run the ball, we're playing an aggressive one on one man defense against the best WR group in the nation. It defies logic.

This. Times google infinity.

 

[pboiler18]

Uhm, Wilson has been pretty darn good (Penn St). And so has Markevius Brown (Ole Miss). Brevard has done a nice job (Penn St). Not sure what you're talking about there.

Thienemen is a stud. Kane has been pretty good. Jenkins is good. Scourton is OK.

Talent isn't the biggest problem with this defense. We're asking guys to do things they aren't really good at with this scheme. Cam Allen is just not good covering guys. And has shown it over and over again. Yet he's out there covering Harrison Jr on several plays yesterday?

Ohio State was down their top 2 running backs yesterday. Instead of playing a zone defense or cover 2 and making them run the ball, we're playing an aggressive one on one man defense against the best WR group in the nation. It defies logic.

I’d agree with summation of talent. Before he got hurt, most teams didn’t really throw at Wilson. He’s pretty good. Browns not elite but he’s not bad either. Kane and Allen are the weak spots in coverage but Allen really shouldn’t be playing and Kane is great vs the run but in his 4th year he should be covering better.

Thineman has a great total skillset but him playing 30 yards downfield isn’t doing anybody any favors.

I think Brvard is good, Jenkins is good and I think Scourton is as well…but if I were him I’d leave to go to a place where they stopped asking me to drop into coverage and let me set the edge and wreak havoc on backfields.

LB is a talent wasteland and we need help there bad. But outside of that spot this team has the talent to win…they just aren’t being asked to do things they can or are able to do…and that’s on coaching.

I think the portal is nt really a viable strategy for the blue bloods of the world…but I do think we have been more talented than ever stars wise taking some of the guys who would be younger depth players from big schools and bringing them here to play or develop. Sure, some haven’t worked out but that’s not worse than our own recruits have done and been over the years.

Our coach has recruited well but that’s it. The gameday performances are far worse than the talent on the field should show. If we just weren’t talented that’s one thing but it’s asking guys to do the same thing over and over and over again when it’s obvious they can’t and won’t to any success.

 

[HUD628]

Thieneman has looked good as a freshman. Kane is ok playing downhill but he would not be playing S for a good team. Hell, they should probably just make him a LB because he'd be the best one on the team right away. Jenkins is pretty good, I'll give you that. Scourton is still young and not yet realizing his potential. We have to give snaps to guys like Sydnor and Humpich for crying out loud, and we are pleased with the talent on D? Come on. The transfer DL guys are JAGs. I have no idea how anyone could think that the corners are good, they get torched every week.

 

[purduepat1969]

Thieneman has looked good as a freshman. Kane is ok playing downhill but he would not be playing S for a good team. Hell, they should probably just make him a LB because he'd be the best one on the team right away. Jenkins is pretty good, I'll give you that. Scourton is still young and not yet realizing his potential. We have to give snaps to guys like Sydnor and Humpich for crying out loud, and we are pleased with the talent on D? Come on. The transfer DL guys are JAGs. I have no idea how anyone could think that the corners are good, they get torched every week.

Kane would be playing strong safety for a lot of teams. Thienemen is the best looking free safety we've had since Stu Schweigert.

You saying Wilson and Brown aren't good tells me everything I need to know about your football knowledge. You do realize they're being asked to play one on one man coverage every snap, right? And then you're gonna say they're not very good when they inevitably get burned? Goodness sakes.

 

[HUD628]

Can't ask your "good" corners to play man. Ok.

Seems like you think that we just need to play soft zone and these guys would be running around making all kinds of plays. Get real.

 

[purduepat1969]

Can't ask your "good" corners to play man. Ok.

Seems like you think that we just need to play soft zone and these guys would be running around making all kinds of plays. Get real.

You can play man all you want. But when you don't have a cover safety over the top (you realize Thienemen can't cover the entire field, right?) you can't expect corners to be aggressive in their play. Why do you think the corners are playing off their man in many situations? Why do you think we have so many blown coverages where there's no safety over the top when a corner gets beat?

Do you really even know what you're talking about?

 

[HUD628]

It doesn't work because our defense isn't talented enough, which is what I've been saying. We're not there.

Let me get this straight. Our corners have to play off and can't be aggressive so they don't get beat. Get beat anyway. But they're really good. I don't know man.

And neither of us or anyone else here really know what we're talking about. lol

 

[qazplm]

It doesn't work because our defense isn't talented enough, which is what I've been saying. We're not there.

Let me get this straight. Our corners have to play off and can't be aggressive so they don't get beat. Get beat anyway. But they're really good. I don't know man.

And neither of us or anyone else here really know what we're talking about. lol

We may not know what we are talking about but we can see:

A defense extraordinarily susceptible to QB runs which suggests our linebackers have issues and given we play primarily man, rarely blitz and don't get a ton of pressure isn't surprising. But even if that analysis is idiotic because I don't know what I'm talking about, it's still an obvious fact we all see.

QBs with plenty of time hitting receivers for long plays while our DBs trail. Again because we play man with single high safety most of the time and rarely blitz. Again could be I'm an idiot on the why, but the what is clear.

Against even just ok run offenses we see five yard gains routinely. Which is the one thing that shouldn't happen if you are only playing one high safety, aren't playing zone, and often have 8 or more in the box you'd think.

I don't know how talented the team is or isn't but I can plainly see this defense isn't working or particularly effective against most of the teams we've played so far.

 

[HUD628]

We may not know what we are talking about but we can see:

A defense extraordinarily susceptible to QB runs which suggests our linebackers have issues and given we play primarily man, rarely blitz and don't get a ton of pressure isn't surprising. But even if that analysis is idiotic because I don't know what I'm talking about, it's still an obvious fact we all see.

QBs with plenty of time hitting receivers for long plays while our DBs trail. Again because we play man with single high safety most of the time and rarely blitz. Again could be I'm an idiot on the why, but the what is clear.

Against even just ok run offenses we see five yard gains routinely. Which is the one thing that shouldn't happen if you are only playing one high safety, aren't playing zone, and often have 8 or more in the box you'd think.

I don't know how talented the team is or isn't but I can plainly see this defense isn't working or particularly effective against most of the teams we've played so far.

Sorry you felt so personally attacked man jeez

Our LBs are really bad, that is clear and stated in this thread. I don't have any numbers in front of me, but it seems to me they are blitzing more since Walters took over play calling. We get some pressure but don't get home enough. Just ok run offenses gain yards on us because, again, the LBers are awful and the DL transfers are JAGs

This defense is the reason that Ryan Walters is a head coach right now.. He's not going to decide to start playing Tampa 2 or something, so we all better get used to it. It can work...if you have the talent.

 

[qazplm]

Sorry you felt so personally attacked man jeez

Our LBs are really bad, that is clear and stated in this thread. I don't have any numbers in front of me, but it seems to me they are blitzing more since Walters took over play calling. We get some pressure but don't get home enough. Just ok run offenses gain yards on us because, again, the LBers are awful and the DL transfers are JAGs

This defense is the reason that Ryan Walters is a head coach right now.. He's not going to decide to start playing Tampa 2 or something, so we all better get used to it. It can work...if you have the talent.

well bud, we don't have the talent. You know if I was a billionaire and looked like a model I might be able to convince Selma Hayek to leave her billionaire husband for me, but I'm neither of those things so I might have to adjust a bit. ANYTHING can work if you have the talent. When you don't have the talent, you adjust. We ain't adjusting. We are trying to play man with talent that can't do it. Our weakest group is at linebacker and yet it's a fundamental element of the defense we play. It's pounding round pegs into square holes and being surprised when they don't go in.

Unless he's recruiting multiple NFL quality DBs, among other standout players on defense, then what we will be getting used to is bad defenses. OR, he adjusts to the talent he has and schemes to their strengths and away from their weaknesses.

 

[HUD628]

well bud, we don't have the talent. You know if I was a billionaire and looked like a model I might be able to convince Selma Hayek to leave her billionaire husband for me, but I'm neither of those things so I might have to adjust a bit. ANYTHING can work if you have the talent. When you don't have the talent, you adjust. We ain't adjusting. We are trying to play man with talent that can't do it. Our weakest group is at linebacker and yet it's a fundamental element of the defense we play. It's pounding round pegs into square holes and being surprised when they don't go in.

Unless he's recruiting multiple NFL quality DBs, among other standout players on defense, then what we will be getting used to is bad defenses. OR, he adjusts to the talent he has and schemes to their strengths and away from their weaknesses.

Well, stupid, I'm pretty sure he's going to be trying to recruit the players he needs. May not succeed, but he's probably not going to scrap the scheme that got him here at 37 years old after 7 games and no real recruiting class. Jesus Christ

 

[qazplm]

Well, stupid, I'm pretty sure he's going to be trying to recruit the players he needs. May not succeed, but he's probably not going to scrap the scheme that got him here at 37 years old after 7 games and no real recruiting class. Jesus Christ

Why would anyone feel personally attacked. lol Yes, why would we ever expect a coach to adjust his scheme to his talent. Ya got me.

 

[HUD628]

Why would anyone feel personally attacked. lol Yes, why would we ever expect a coach to adjust his scheme to his talent. Ya got me.

You jumped in here with a whiny ass dramatic post as if you were personally insulted in a thread you were not even participating in. So now I am insulting you. You're being a little B

BTW he's still not scrapping his scheme.

 

[Chi-Boiler]

To me, it all starts with the linebackers. They're just not very good. Yanni has impressed some I suppose, but none of them are making plays.

 

[PaBoiler78]

To me, it all starts with the linebackers. They're just not very good. Yanni has impressed some I suppose, but none of them are making plays.

speaking of LB's , Pitre and Moon were supposed to be good recruits, where are they?

 

[qazplm]

You jumped in here with a whiny ass dramatic post as if you were personally insulted in a thread you were not even participating in. So now I am insulting you. You're being a little B

BTW he's still not scrapping his scheme.

It's always amusing to see the internet warriors say things they wouldn't have the balls to say in real life. Who's a tough little internet warrior? You are!

Lol there was nothing whiny or dramatic, you just took it that way because I ignored your simplistic "we don't know anything" dismissal and pointed out the obvious results on the field.

He may not scrap his scheme. Which may lead to him scrapping his way for a new job unless he happens to recruit a ton of great players on defense that can come in and play right away. Odds of that aren't zero, but they ain't high. Particularly if we end up with a 3-4 wins season.

His best shot is to adjust to what he has, so he can win the four winnable games left and get to a bowl game with positive buzz. Same goes for offense which continually seems to think out routes and slamming into the middle of the line are go to plays.

I suspect, unlike you, that this bye week actually will see some changes made on both sides of the ball to adjust to what is and is not working. There's a reason he has such a low salary and buyout by the way.

 

[HUD628]

I was trying to lighten things up a little bit in a thread you weren't even involved with and you took that statement and got a bit dramatic about it. It is what it is. And drop the internet warrior nonsense, that aint me. I put a fu*&ing smiley face after my insult for god's sake. Relax

The scheme is his. It defines him as a football coach and he will continue to run it. He's going to have to recruit talent or he'll be fired. And recruiting the talent is maybe the #1 reason he was hired. Can you not see that? The whole point of Ryan Walters is his young energy and perceived ability to recruit. We'll see how that pans out but I feel pretty confident in saying he's not going to go to a different scheme.

 

[qazplm]

I was trying to lighten things up a little bit in a thread you weren't even involved with and you took that statement and got a bit dramatic about it. It is what it is. And drop the internet warrior nonsense, that aint me. I put a fu*&ing smiley face after my insult for god's sake. Relax

The scheme is his. It defines him as a football coach and he will continue to run it. He's going to have to recruit talent or he'll be fired. And recruiting the talent is maybe the #1 reason he was hired. Can you not see that? The whole point of Ryan Walters is his young energy and perceived ability to recruit. We'll see how that pans out but I feel pretty confident in saying he's not going to go to a different scheme.

Lol watching someone on an Internet message board make definitive statements about a coach in his thirties is humorous.

If he lasts awhile odds are he'll do what a ton of different successful coaches do, adjust.

 

[pboiler18]

Lol watching someone on an Internet message board make definitive statements about a coach in his thirties is humorous.

If he lasts awhile odds are he'll do what a ton of different successful coaches do, adjust.

7 games in there’s been 0 adjustments…why start now?

 

[qazplm]

7 games in there’s been 0 adjustments…why start now?

There were slight adjustments. We blitz slightly more since he started calling the plays.

I'm going to guess he's hoping that an influx of talent next season will be the difference and I suppose that's possible, but unlikely.

So the real test will either be that is the difference or it isn't and how does he react if it's similar next season?

His prior experience is it took a half season for things to click at Illinois and the second season to explode. So he's probably leaning on that. I think he's underestimating the talent gap between what he had there and here, but time will tell.

It's certainly not working right now.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

There were slight adjustments. We blitz slightly more since he started calling the plays.

I'm going to guess he's hoping that an influx of talent next season will be the difference and I suppose that's possible, but unlikely.

So the real test will either be that is the difference or it isn't and how does he react if it's similar next season?

His prior experience is it took a half season for things to click at Illinois and the second season to explode. So he's probably leaning on that. I think he's underestimating the talent gap between what he had there and here, but time will tell.

It's certainly not working right now.

In college football, you have to do whatever it takes to win right away. Otherwise, you start losing recruits and it spirals downward quickly.

So if a 4-3 is a better fit, or 3-3-5, or 3-4, or whatever… you scrap “your scheme” and play to win this Saturday.

 

[pboiler18]

There were slight adjustments. We blitz slightly more since he started calling the plays.

I'm going to guess he's hoping that an influx of talent next season will be the difference and I suppose that's possible, but unlikely.

So the real test will either be that is the difference or it isn't and how does he react if it's similar next season?

His prior experience is it took a half season for things to click at Illinois and the second season to explode. So he's probably leaning on that. I think he's underestimating the talent gap between what he had there and here, but time will tell.

It's certainly not working right now.

Issue is, he’s looking for 4 NFL ready DBs, 2 265pound run stuffing LBs, 3 300+ DTs and 2 OLB who can cover 20 yards downfield and also be 10+ sack guys. It’s just not happening here at Purdue.

I said it earlier in the thread. By this time next year we’ll have met the definition of insanity…expecting different results while doing the same thing over and over again.

 

[HUD628]

Issue is, he’s looking for 4 NFL ready DBs, 2 265pound run stuffing LBs, 3 300+ DTs and 2 OLB who can cover 20 yards downfield and also be 10+ sack guys. It’s just not happening here at Purdue.

I said it earlier in the thread. By this time next year we’ll have met the definition of insanity…expecting different results while doing the same thing over and over again.

Judging by what I'm told in this thread, he's got 2 maybe 2.5 Of the DBs right now. I'm calling Kane the half and he'll be gone so he needs 2 more good DBs.

I don't even know who Illinois' ILB were but I doubt there were 2 really good ones and 265 lbs. But everyone agrees that Purdue's LB are awful so that's a major need.

He's already got 3 300+ DT

Illinois OLB last year were nothing like that. Newton led them in sacks with 5.5

 

[qazplm]

In college football, you have to do whatever it takes to win right away. Otherwise, you start losing recruits and it spirals downward quickly.

So if a 4-3 is a better fit, or 3-3-5, or 3-4, or whatever… you scrap “your scheme” and play to win this Saturday.

I was ok with him giving it a try, but once it became clear we don't have the players would have liked to see more adjustments for sure.

He doesn't have to scrap his entire system but single high safety man coverage is absolutely not something we have the players to play. It not only makes it harder to get a pass rush, it makes it harder to cover which leads to all those third and longs we can't stop. Plus it opens up to us being susceptible to QB runs which we've seen a ton of.

We will see if he makes some tweaks during the bye.

 

[ImRonBurgandy?]

speaking of LB's , Pitre and Moon were supposed to be good recruits, where are they?

Good question

 

[Jbigler1986]

Our defense has been pretty good since the second half of the Wisconsin game actually. The Ohio state game was no surprise.

 

[HUD628]

Our defense has been pretty good since the second half of the Wisconsin game actually. The Ohio state game was no surprise.

Nope, have to scrap the scheme. We need to be running a base 4-3. Get a couple more of our good LB out there on the field. Never blitz, sit in Tampa 2, and just play good solid defense. Something like what the Chicago Bears do each week. lol

 

[Bippus33]

Can we give Ron English a $200K raise to come back ?

LOL!!

 

[Beorik]

I am not sure I agree that LB has been terrible for us. We play 2 on the line of scrimmage and typically that has been Scourton and Jenkens and they have both been good. We typically only play one LB off the line of scrimmage and that has been Yanni and Brothers who have both been decent. The 7th man in the box is typically a safety Kane. I am not super down on our LB play.

Imo, definitely in the terrible games we seem to be exploited over and over in man coverage and usually it is Allen or Kane trying to cover someone 1 on 1 and losing. That most certainly should be corrected. I don’t know anyone who thought prior to this year that Allen/Kane could cover the slot well.

I think things certainly could be corrected or improved this year to win a few more games and hopefully they are. We have a good class lined up for next year and I would hate to see guys start flipping based on what they are seeing on the field now.

 

[Bippus33]

it's all about having talented players, if we had nd's HC, their OC Parker, DC Golden we'd prolly have the same record.

Disagree. Too many strategic decisions were made that were very costly which was the result of poor play calling. That comes from the top.....

 

[Bippus33]

Th

The only WR who was getting minutes last year was Sheffield. There's a reason why Burks and Yaseen didn't play much for Brohm. They're just not all that good at getting open consistently. And we really have no receiver Card can throw it up to like Bell or Wright. It's just not a very good WR room...

To me, the unit that has a bit of explaining to do is the defense. No real reason why that group should be that bad...

There are reasons and most of the blame shouldn't fall on the players...