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Should Biggie & Haas split time at the 5 instead of starting together?

BoilerGrad02

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May 7, 2008
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Maybe not in every game but today that was certainly the difference. I guess against certain teams them starting together could be effective (more half court/possession oriented teams) but against up and down perimeter scoring teams it looks like a bad matchup.

Great second half, hats off to the team and coaches.
 
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As you said, it depends on the game. The pair of them can cause match-up problems for the other team, but today it was clearly the opposite for us.

Not that you're saying he isn't, but Haas is as important to this team as ever. Today just wasn't the right situation for him.
 
Wait, you mean what Ive been advocating all season long and have been getting killed for?

Isnt it glaringly obvious at this point?

Haas should be coming off the bench like Ive said all season. Vince should be starting at the 4, his natural position. Swanigan should be starting at center, his natural position - like anyone with a brain has noticed all season.
 
As you said, it depends on the game. The pair of them can cause match-up problems for the other team, but today it was clearly the opposite for us.

Not that you're saying he isn't, but Haas is as important to this team as ever. Today just wasn't the right situation for him.
Agree. There will be teams we face that Haas will be a beast to handle and games like today where he struggles. That is the great thing about the players on this roster, Painter has a luxury of being able to adjust how he needs to be successful and we saw that today.
 
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Yep. Matchups. I was actually thinking about the game yesterday and thinking Vince needed to start today but my suggestion was to insert him for Carsen.

Regardless I think we've seen this happen often enough to know that in some games our big lineup becomes more of a disadvantage than an advantage.
 
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Yes. It's a small mans game now. Haas isn't a world beater defensively so I think he's a nice change up offensively off the bench.
 
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100% haas should come off the bench every game the rest of the way.. only for short stretches should they play together. We are 10 times better with only 1 big in the game
 
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You guys realize that starting Haas causes huge problems for our opponents game planning, right? We go big and powerful, then we go small and quick. Our variety and our experience gives us a strong advantage over just starting small.

I say we continue to start both Haas and Biggie, and make playing us a living hell. They won't know what line up to practice against.
 
Yep. Matchups. I was actually thinking about the game yesterday and thinking Vince needed to start today but my suggestion was to insert him for Carsen.

Regardless I think we've seen this happen often enough to know that in some games our big lineup becomes more of a disadvantage than an advantage.
Don't think you can take Carsen out of the lineup. He gives us something no one else on the team has in his ability to get to the rim. I thought he was the best defender on the court today also.
 
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It's time for the annual Haas to the bench for B1G play switch to happen. Louisville and Notre Dame had zero problem game planning for Haas in the lineup. We're not playing too many more NJIT's the rest of the way.
 
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Except that Swanigan was sold on Purdue because he could play the four. All you guys forgot that one little part.

Yes, but now he is here and invested. He wants to win and you could see it tonight. Against the lesser competition, Purdue can get by with him at the four. Against better competition and more athletic lineups, Purdue is better served with Biggie at the 5. It won't need to be every game, but Painter saw what was needed. Biggie was celebrating in the room with the others and you better believe he knew it was because they played better with him at the 5.
 
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You guys realize that starting Haas causes huge problems for our opponents game planning, right? We go big and powerful, then we go small and quick. Our variety and our experience gives us a strong advantage over just starting small.
I say we continue to start both Haas and Biggie, and make playing us a living hell. They won't know what line up to practice against.

Haas is still one of our best players. Notre Dame was hitting the 3's and that made Haas ineffective, but we still need him for 22 minutes a game. We will not go far with team that have quality muscle big men without him.
 
Wait, you mean what Ive been advocating all season long and have been getting killed for?

Isnt it glaringly obvious at this point?

Haas should be coming off the bench like Ive said all season. Vince should be starting at the 4, his natural position. Swanigan should be starting at center, his natural position - like anyone with a brain has noticed all season.
one of the complaints on this forum is that Matt does not recruit players with as many stars as many wish he did. Some of those and others as well talk about "MATT" developing players and getting them to the next level. Without that talk, players know that to move up they must move down and that many times happens from high school to college and college to teh pro game. 2's in high school many times need to go to 1 in college. Data will show that the average height in college is higher than high school and yet smaller than the pros. That tells us and players things concerning positions to move on.

Biggie made a business decision and part of that decision was playing time at the four. It was a plus to have AJ and Haas aboard to give assurance to Biggies desire to develop more of a face up game. Biggie knows his spot in the pro game is not underneath. he is skilled, but got blocked from behind by Colson yesterday due to not being as athletic as many his size. Having a year at Purdue and working like he does has improved his athleticism, but I don't think of athlete when I see Biggie. I see skill, warrior mentality and great work ethic. Vince's dad played overseas a few years and I'm sure Vince wants that as well if nto getting into the NBA. Vince is aware that moving up requires moving down a position and that with his height he has a better chance of making and staying by becoming a solid 3. With Purdue's motion, there is a lot of flexibility for players to play inside and outside to play to their strengths.

Haas is very slow, but has improved. Not too many teams play 5 out around the line, but ND has recruited that and played that. Haas has a lot of cargo to move and yesterday may not have been the best game for him. Purdue needs him and there will be games that they really need both Biggie and Haas on the court at the same time in a similar fashion to the yesterday when Purdue was up and closing out the game, Carsen and others looked to PJ to take care of the ball and control the team even though earlier Carsen needed the ball more.

Matt has to win. Winning improves the recruiting and it is elevated when players are in the next league (many times moving down a position). Matt has to juggle playing time to keep the bench happy, playing time to win, egos at whatever level they are, competing against other teams trying to prevent you from doing what you want, spending an eternity on a player to have him go somewhere else with brighter lights or an imagination that the coach there can put you in the pros and others can't. I expect that Biggie and Vince BOTH want to win, but would prefer to win playing down a spot from what you advocate. Matt must balance that. Not sure Carsen's future is at a two either and imagine he knows that moving down serves his future the best as well. I know what you are saying, but see it more complex.
 
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Maybe not in every game but today that was certainly the difference. I guess against certain teams them starting together could be effective (more half court/possession oriented teams) but against up and down perimeter scoring teams it looks like a bad matchup.

Great second half, hats off to the team and coaches.
Yes. It's even more imperative if Vince tarts playing like he just did. It is how they play best and makes them ten times better on defense. It also significantly reduces the low post depth problem.
 
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Yep. Matchups. I was actually thinking about the game yesterday and thinking Vince needed to start today but my suggestion was to insert him for Carsen.

Regardless I think we've seen this happen often enough to know that in some games our big lineup becomes more of a disadvantage than an advantage.

I think Carsen has to start. He's still the only player who can get a bucket whenever he wants and can help stop the momentum of the other team.
 
I think Carsen has to start. He's still the only player who can get a bucket whenever he wants and can help stop the momentum of the other team.
Carsen also improves Matt's understanding of beating a press... ;)
 
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one of the complaints on this forum is that Matt does not recruit players with as many stars as many wish he did. Some of those and others as well talk about "MATT" developing players and getting them to the next level. Without that talk, players know that to move up they must move down and that many times happens from high school to college and college to teh pro game. 2's in high school many times need to go to 1 in college. Data will show that the average height in college is higher than high school and yet smaller than the pros. That tells us and players things concerning positions to move on.

Biggie made a business decision and part of that decision was playing time at the four. It was a plus to have AJ and Haas aboard to give assurance to Biggies desire to develop more of a face up game. Biggie knows his spot in the pro game is not underneath. he is skilled, but got blocked from behind by Colson yesterday due to not being as athletic as many his size. Having a year at Purdue and working like he does has improved his athleticism, but I don't think of athlete when I see Biggie. I see skill, warrior mentality and great work ethic. Vince's dad played overseas a few years and I'm sure Vince wants that as well if nto getting into the NBA. Vince is aware that moving up requires moving down a position and that with his height he has a better chance of making and staying by becoming a solid 3. With Purdue's motion, there is a lot of flexibility for players to play inside and outside to play to their strengths.

Haas is very slow, but has improved. Not too many teams play 5 out around the line, but ND has recruited that and played that. Haas has a lot of cargo to move and yesterday may not have been the best game for him. Purdue needs him and there will be games that they really need both Biggie and Haas on the court at the same time in a similar fashion to the yesterday when Purdue was up and closing out the game, Carsen and others looked to PJ to take care of the ball and control the team even though earlier Carsen needed the ball more.

Matt has to win. Winning improves the recruiting and it is elevated when players are in the next league (many times moving down a position). Matt has to juggle playing time to keep the bench happy, playing time to win, egos at whatever level they are, competing against other teams trying to prevent you from doing what you want, spending an eternity on a player to have him go somewhere else with brighter lights or an imagination that the coach there can put you in the pros and others can't. I expect that Biggie and Vince BOTH want to win, but would prefer to win playing down a spot from what you advocate. Matt must balance that. Not sure Carsen's future is at a two either and imagine he knows that moving down serves his future the best as well. I know what you are saying, but see it more complex.
Hmmm. Tough situation. What is best for the team is not necessarily best for the individuals. Glad he's the coach and not me.
 
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Hmmm. Tough situation. What is best for the team is not necessarily best for the individuals. Glad he's the coach and not me.
as you know...a balancing beam to walk. I'm just now sure that all on this forum understand many things Matt has to balance... :) My nephew played music at his house last summer and so I think I would like to coach one year for the money before they fired me. :)
 
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I think Carsen has to start. He's still the only player who can get a bucket whenever he wants and can help stop the momentum of the other team.
I agree on Carsen staying in. I am pretending the player need vs team need conundrum TJ pointed out does not exist because as a fan, I can do thato_O. I like the Edwards brothers in there together in most match up situations. I see a need for speed that comeback was magnificently quick for a team that did not press. They actually lowered the half court pressure on the passing lanes to deal with the drives then stepped into the kick out lanes. The team speed uptick was important. I guess this team has the ability to match up to very different styles. I think this is a good problem.
 
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A couple of very good things happened today. !. Matt saw how we can better stop quick penetration. 2. Matt saw how we play for extended periods with Vince/4 and Swanigan/5, 3. Other teams now see that we are not as vulnerable to their spreading the floor as they thought,. 4. and we proved to ourselves that we can defend when teams spread the floor. The NCAA takes away the ability to use the non-conference as the preseason, but that's what it really is.
 
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Going to be fun to see CP work this out.

Haas - Only a 5, but really good 5 man.
Swanigan - Really good at 4 and 5, bigger match-up challenge at the 5.
Edwards - Really good and match-up challenge at the 4, easier cover at the 3.

As much as possible when V Edwards is on the floor he needs to be at the 4. If that means Swanigan gets rest during those stretches or that means Haas to the bench during those stretches. Either way those 3 players have 80 minutes between the 3 of them.
 
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I agree on Carsen staying in. I am pretending the player need vs team need conundrum TJ pointed out does not exist because as a fan, I can do thato_O. I like the Edwards brothers in there together in most match up situations. I see a need for speed that comeback was magnificently quick for a team that did not press. They actually lowered the half court pressure on the passing lanes to deal with the drives then stepped into the kick out lanes. The team speed uptick was important. I guess this team has the ability to match up to very different styles. I think this is a good problem.
Agreed. We're going to have some knock down, drag out bar fights in the Big Ten, and will need Isaac for those.
 
Yes, but now he is here and invested. He wants to win and you could see it tonight. Against the lesser competition, Purdue can get by with him at the four. Against better competition and more athletic lineups, Purdue is better served with Biggie at the 5. It won't need to be every game, but Painter saw what was needed. Biggie was celebrating in the room with the others and you better believe he knew it was because they played better with him at the 5.
Really? Because it could be that he recognized Purdue played better with Vince at the four.
 
It's not a secret that higher energy posts can give Haas fits and make him look lost at times. Sitting may be the only real solution during those times or games. That said, he is still a major factor and force for us. He will win some games for us with his presence and ability to get people in foul trouble. We are blessed to have the players that give us options. Most teams do not have that luxury. Plus ND was no slouch.
 
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Maybe not in every game but today that was certainly the difference. I guess against certain teams them starting together could be effective (more half court/possession oriented teams) but against up and down perimeter scoring teams it looks like a bad matchup.

Great second half, hats off to the team and coaches.

yes, and it should have been happening all season.
 
........................................ Biggie was celebrating in the room with the others and you better believe he knew it was because they played better with him at the 5.

This comment is absurd. He wasn't celebrating because he played the 5. He celebrated winning the game with his teammates. Even the ones that didn't play. Some of you overthink all of this. Actually, it would be better if you didn't think at all and just enjoy their great play and winning, just as if you were one of them.
 
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