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Purdue’s Mt. Rushmore: Johnny Wooden, Rick Mount, Joe Barry Carroll, Glenn Robinson

Born Boiler

Born Boiler

Junior
Dec 6, 2006
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No vegetation growing over that quartet.

Mount the Rocket and Robinson the Big Dog both had scoring averages in the 30s -- a level Jaden Ivey never reached even in one game. Mount and Carroll led Final Four teams. Wooden was a consensus three-time All-American with a consensus national championship, long before coaching 10 more for UCLA. Robinson was the consensus national player of the year. All four were consensus first-team All-Americans -- another level that eluded Ivey.

NBA po-tential? Carroll and Robinson both were the No. 1 overall picks in their NBA Drafts. Russell Cross was a No. 6. Herman Gilliam went No. 8. Dave Schellhase and Keith Edmonson were both No. 10s. Beyond mocks and projections, actual lottery slots are not new for Purdue.

NBA performance? Carroll, Robinson, Terry Dischinger and Brad Miller were NBA All-Stars. Gilliam, Robinson, Paul Hoffman, Frank Kendrick, Jerry Sichting and Brian Cardinal were NBA Champions. Dischinger, Gilliam, Sichting, Carroll, Robinson, Miller, Cardinal, Carl Landry and E’Twaun Moore each played in the NBA from eight to 14 years and appeared in 500 to 868 games (Miller), except for Cardinal (456 games before his ring).

Jaden Ivey does join Caleb Swanigan and Carsen Edwards on our newer Mt. Rush-off.
 
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Sounds good to me. Make Brian Cardinal the 5th man.
 
Born Boiler said:
No vegetation growing over that quartet.

Mount the Rocket and Robinson the Big Dog both had scoring averages in the 30s -- a level Jaden Ivey never reached even in one game. Mount and Carroll led Final Four teams. Wooden was a consensus three-time All-American with a consensus national championship, long before coaching 10 more for UCLA. Robinson was the consensus national player of the year. All four were consensus first-team All-Americans -- another level that eluded Ivey.

NBA po-tential? Carroll and Robinson both were the No. 1 overall picks in their NBA Drafts. Russell Cross was a No. 6. Herman Gilliam went No. 8. Dave Schellhase and Keith Edmonson were both No. 10s. Beyond mocks and projections, actual lottery slots are not new for Purdue.

NBA performance? Carroll, Robinson, Terry Dischinger and Brad Miller were NBA All-Stars. Gilliam, Robinson, Paul Hoffman, Frank Kendrick, Jerry Sichting and Brian Cardinal were NBA Champions. Dischinger, Gilliam, Sichting, Carroll, Robinson, Miller, Cardinal, Carl Landry and E’Twaun Moore each played in the NBA from eight to 14 years and appeared in 500 to 868 games (Miller), except for Cardinal (456 games before his ring).

Jaden Ivey does join Caleb Swanigan and Carsen Edwards on our newer Mt. Rush-off.
Click to expand...
Agree with everything, other than the shot at the 3 guys at the end for their decisions to leave, more so in that of the 3, Ivey is the one whose decision could (and should) be questioned the least. Swanigan delivered on the court as hoped...Edwards almost carried Purdue to a FF on his own, and, if he had, by your standard, would have earned a spot on the Mt. Rushmore...Ivey was the one to achieve the least at/for Purdue, but, his decision to leave is a no-brainer, and, he was too young and immature to reach his potential in his time at Purdue, unlike ANY of the other people that you mention in this thread.
 
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Seems like a passive aggressive attempt to throw more unnecessary shade at Ivey. Aren't you the one defending David Bell, another early departure, on the football board?
 
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You’re just ****ing with me, right? No one with a single functioning brain cell would post this.
 
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FirstDownB said:
Seems like a passive aggressive attempt to throw more unnecessary shade at Ivey. Aren't you the one defending David Bell, another early departure, on the football board?
Click to expand...

Shading Ivey, compared to Purdue’s all-time greats? He’s done that to himself. He’s leaving as a sophomore who’s not won anything here. No titles. The players above led Purdue to banners. His actual numbers are not at all special and all fell off through his last month here, documented elsewhere and again below. His performance is one-dimensional. Drive and dunk. He comes undone in double-teams. Good enough for today’s NBA, but nowhere near the best players we’ve had here. He needs improvements that Carroll and Robinson made here, won the Big Ten as juniors and then got drafted No. 1 overall. They both achieved what he never neared.

Repeating, Ivey announced at the exact same time BTN was replaying Illinois-at-Purdue … the last great game of his 59-game college career and the last time Purdue led the Big Ten. After Illinois, in the 13 games that followed, Ivey just once shot over 50 percent from the floor, going 66 of 158 overall for 42 percent (vs. 44 percent for the year), he shot 18 of 67 on threes for 27 percent (vs. 36 percent for the year) and he averaged 16.8 points (vs. 17.3 for the year), 4.5 rebounds (vs. 4.9 for the year), 2.6 assists (vs. 3.1 for the year) and 3.4 turnovers (vs. 2.6 for the year) as Purdue lost five of those 13 games. Evident end-of-season drop-off. So, let’s play 82.

As for David Bell, a junior, I criticized him and George Karlaftis for quitting the team before a bowl game to prepare for workouts that have lowered their stocks. In turn, I cited Bell’s assets and offered comparisons for those insisting he is deficient. He left one game early, not one year.
 
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Born Boiler said:
Shading Ivey, compared to Purdue’s all-time greats? He’s done that to himself. He’s leaving as a sophomore who’s not won anything here. No titles. The players above led Purdue to banners. His actual numbers are not at all special and all fell off through his last month here, documented elsewhere and again below. His performance is one-dimensional. Drive and dunk. He comes undone in double-teams. Good enough for today’s NBA, but nowhere near the best players we’ve had here. He needs improvements that Carroll and Robinson made here, won the Big Ten as juniors and then got drafted No. 1 overall. They both achieved what he never neared.

Repeating, Ivey announced at the exact same time BTN was replaying Illinois-at-Purdue … the last great game of his 59-game college career and the last time Purdue led the Big Ten. After Illinois, in the 13 games that followed, Ivey just once shot over 50 percent from the floor, going 66 of 158 overall for 42 percent (vs. 44 percent for the year), he shot 18 of 67 on threes for 27 percent (vs. 36 percent for the year) and he averaged 16.8 points (vs. 17.3 for the year), 4.5 rebounds (vs. 4.9 for the year), 2.6 assists (vs. 3.1 for the year) and 3.4 turnovers (vs. 2.6 for the year) as Purdue lost five of those 13 games. Evident end-of-season drop-off. So, let’s play 82.

As for David Bell, a junior, I criticized him and George Karlaftis for quitting the team before a bowl game to prepare for workouts that have lowered their stocks. In turn, I cited Bell’s assets and offered comparisons for those insisting he is deficient. He left one game early, not one year.
Click to expand...
Bell, a junior, didn't leave a year early? Ok. I guess you can just make up your own definition of leaving early. By the way, I have no beef with either guy pursuing their dream and engaging in their career at peak value. That is the main purpose of going to college. We should be proud of them both. But you come off as holding some weird grudge against Jaden in particular. The OP was an unprovoked attack. Nobody has claimed he belongs on Purdue's Mt Rushmore. That's just something you whipped up out of thin air to use against him.
 
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Congratulations on choosing a Purdue Mt. Rushmore. The original was to feature Wild West figures before the sculptor changed his mind. He went with four of his favorite presidents.
 
There is no question those 4 players are far and above the best. their accomplishments were for more than just one season or one tournament. When making a purdue mt rushmore, and talking accomplishments, you should refer only to their accomplishments as boilermakers. there is no need t o discuss their pro accomplishments.

as for other players, they do not need to be in this discussion. because if you start to mention certain recent players, there are many others who could also be included. Bob Ford was pretty good, as was Mount's fellow guard teammate. Sichting was awesome as was Sheffler. Cardinal was the scrapper. Jordan and parker were great. If you're going to include accolades after the y left Purdue Kyle Macy was an All american and had a couple of NCAA championships to his name (after he transferred). and he could make clutch free throws. too often when i see lists like this, it seems like you only remember the great players of the last 5 years. there have been many players just as great every decade.

So stay with your top 4. Nobody else really came close. We all know who the 4 best were. it's like saying Blough and Orton were as good as Bob Greise because their stats were better. In reality, it wasn't close. Who was Purdue's best running back? Keys or Alstott?
 
Wolegib said:
There is no question those 4 players are far and above the best. their accomplishments were for more than just one season or one tournament. When making a purdue mt rushmore, and talking accomplishments, you should refer only to their accomplishments as boilermakers. there is no need t o discuss their pro accomplishments.

as for other players, they do not need to be in this discussion. because if you start to mention certain recent players, there are many others who could also be included. Bob Ford was pretty good, as was Mount's fellow guard teammate. Sichting was awesome as was Sheffler. Cardinal was the scrapper. Jordan and parker were great. If you're going to include accolades after the y left Purdue Kyle Macy was an All american and had a couple of NCAA championships to his name (after he transferred). and he could make clutch free throws. too often when i see lists like this, it seems like you only remember the great players of the last 5 years. there have been many players just as great every decade.

So stay with your top 4. Nobody else really came close. We all know who the 4 best were. it's like saying Blough and Orton were as good as Bob Greise because their stats were better. In reality, it wasn't close. Who was Purdue's best running back? Keys or Alstott?
Click to expand...
Didn't come close? Look at Terry Dischinger's stats.
 
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FirstDownB said:
Bell, a junior, didn't leave a year early? Ok. I guess you can just make up your own definition of leaving early. By the way, I have no beef with either guy pursuing their dream and engaging in their career at peak value. That is the main purpose of going to college. We should be proud of them both. But you come off as holding some weird grudge against Jaden in particular. The OP was an unprovoked attack. Nobody has claimed he belongs on Purdue's Mt Rushmore. That's just something you whipped up out of thin air to use against him.
Click to expand...

Early, as in “prematurely.” Or did I not state he was a junior?

I don’t hate Jaden. I hate to see him leave short of the top here and there. I’ve cited the ideal way to go -- No. 1 in the Big Ten, then No. 1 in the NBA. Not more money. The most money.
 
Wolegib said:
There is no question those 4 players are far and above the best. their accomplishments were for more than just one season or one tournament. When making a purdue mt rushmore, and talking accomplishments, you should refer only to their accomplishments as boilermakers. there is no need t o discuss their pro accomplishments.

as for other players, they do not need to be in this discussion. because if you start to mention certain recent players, there are many others who could also be included. Bob Ford was pretty good, as was Mount's fellow guard teammate. Sichting was awesome as was Sheffler. Cardinal was the scrapper. Jordan and parker were great. If you're going to include accolades after the y left Purdue Kyle Macy was an All american and had a couple of NCAA championships to his name (after he transferred). and he could make clutch free throws. too often when i see lists like this, it seems like you only remember the great players of the last 5 years. there have been many players just as great every decade.

So stay with your top 4. Nobody else really came close. We all know who the 4 best were. it's like saying Blough and Orton were as good as Bob Greise because their stats were better. In reality, it wasn't close. Who was Purdue's best running back? Keys or Alstott?
Click to expand...

For football, I’d start with Griese, Keyes, Woodson, Brees (then add music).

For aerospace, Armstrong, Grissom, Earhart, Sullenberger (with honorable mentions to Iven Kincheloe for first in space and Cliff Turpin for upgrading and flying the Wrights’ jalopy).

For creations, Ellis, Mead, Slayter, Lamb … (for the Golden Gate, Hoover Dam, Fiberglass, C-Span, with honorable mention to Paul McEnroe for the barcode and Ruth Siems for Stove Top).

For all-time, Armstrong, Wooden, Redenbacher, Brees and maybe Father Phil.
 
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Born Boiler said:
Shading Ivey, compared to Purdue’s all-time greats? He’s done that to himself. He’s leaving as a sophomore who’s not won anything here. No titles. The players above led Purdue to banners. His actual numbers are not at all special and all fell off through his last month here, documented elsewhere and again below. His performance is one-dimensional. Drive and dunk. He comes undone in double-teams. Good enough for today’s NBA, but nowhere near the best players we’ve had here. He needs improvements that Carroll and Robinson made here, won the Big Ten as juniors and then got drafted No. 1 overall. They both achieved what he never neared.

Repeating, Ivey announced at the exact same time BTN was replaying Illinois-at-Purdue … the last great game of his 59-game college career and the last time Purdue led the Big Ten. After Illinois, in the 13 games that followed, Ivey just once shot over 50 percent from the floor, going 66 of 158 overall for 42 percent (vs. 44 percent for the year), he shot 18 of 67 on threes for 27 percent (vs. 36 percent for the year) and he averaged 16.8 points (vs. 17.3 for the year), 4.5 rebounds (vs. 4.9 for the year), 2.6 assists (vs. 3.1 for the year) and 3.4 turnovers (vs. 2.6 for the year) as Purdue lost five of those 13 games. Evident end-of-season drop-off. So, let’s play 82.

As for David Bell, a junior, I criticized him and George Karlaftis for quitting the team before a bowl game to prepare for workouts that have lowered their stocks. In turn, I cited Bell’s assets and offered comparisons for those insisting he is deficient. He left one game early, not one year.
Click to expand...
Being critical of Jaden, Bell and/or Karlaftis for their respective decisions is fair...just as being critical of those that jump so quickly to the transfer portal, but, to diminish the fact that all are incredibly good/gifted, and, not appreciate that all chose Purdue...more so in the case of Bell and Karlaftis in that they chose Purdue over better opportunities or programs...is not really fair.

If the NBA actually cared about a guy's true readiness, Ivey would be returning to Purdue for a year, and, there is not a Purdue fan that would not welcome that...if the rules for college basketball were those of football or baseball, he would be returning as well...but, to bash him for choosing to leave because the league that he has dreamed for the entirety of his young life as a basketball player to play in is not just going to make that dream come true, but, make it come true in grand fashion, is definitely not fair...I don't know that I feel like Bell and Karlaftis quit, but, I don't like what they did....understand it, but, don't like it...but, Ivey is not quitting in any form or fashion, and, I am confident that he realizes as much as anyone that he is not a finished product and that he needs to continue to get better...not his fault that someone is willing to pay him millions of dollars to do it.

Name a guy (and there may be one that I admittedly have forgotten or am not aware/thinking of) that was a projected top 5 pick, but, did not declare...because he felt like he needed to get better, or, because he wanted to stay in college another year so that he and his team could have a better year.

I remember last year watching FSU a number of times and just laughing at the idea of Scottie Barnes being a NBA lottery pick...the guy could not have been more disappointing as a college player or fail more to live up to the hype...yet, he declared (and I laughed even more), and, he is having a tremendous year.

Ivey did not do what we had hoped that he would...I don't think he did what he hoped that he would, but, a guy that was not highly recruited...that was not a guy with the acclaim of others...to have elevated his game as he has from the time that he committed to the point that it is at, I don't see how anyone can blame him for taking advantage of the opportunity that exists. We can be critical of his failing to be better...some of that is absolutely on him...a lot of it...but, it is not as if he failed to share the basketball or monopolized it...that he just ran amok on the floor...and, it was not a system that was designed to highlight his skills, or, even take advantage of them largely.

Regardless, he has the opportunity to live out a dream, and, in grand fashion...congratulations to him, and, best wishes as well.
 
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Born Boiler said:
For football, I’d start with Griese, Keyes, Woodson, Brees (then add music).

For aerospace, Armstrong, Grissom, Earhart, Sullenberger (with honorable mentions to Iven Kincheloe for first in space and Cliff Turpin for upgrading and flying the Wrights’ jalopy).

For creations, Ellis, Mead, Slayter, Lamb … (for the Golden Gate, Hoover Dam, Fiberglass, C-Span, with honorable mention to Paul McEnroe for the barcode and Ruth Siems for Stove Top).

For all-time, Armstrong, Wooden, Redenbacher, Brees and maybe Father Phil.
Click to expand...

Edward Purcell, Herbert Brown, Ei-ichi Negishi, Roscoe George,
and if he had stayed at Purdue longer Reginald Fessenden.
 
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Born Boiler said:
For football, I’d start with Griese, Keyes, Woodson, Brees (then add music).

For aerospace, Armstrong, Grissom, Earhart, Sullenberger (with honorable mentions to Iven Kincheloe for first in space and Cliff Turpin for upgrading and flying the Wrights’ jalopy).

For creations, Ellis, Mead, Slayter, Lamb … (for the Golden Gate, Hoover Dam, Fiberglass, C-Span, with honorable mention to Paul McEnroe for the barcode and Ruth Siems for Stove Top).

For all-time, Armstrong, Wooden, Redenbacher, Brees and maybe Father Phil.
Click to expand...
That’s a difficult one for me. I’m not sure George Karlaftis isn’t up there individually..

People should never forget that karlaftis played with three other linemen who only did something because he was being triple teamed. You put Karlaftis with Kawann Short, suddenly maybe even full double teams become an untenable proposition, and he’s just unblockable. Kawann Short would have taken the single team blocking our DTs got and parked OLs right in the QBs lap a la Karlaftis planting the ND OT into Coan (or Erasmus James lifting David Owen three feet off the ground and dropping him on Orton).
 
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John Wooden always said that the best player he ever saw during his playing days was Charles “Stretch“ Murphy – another Boilermaker who was a year or two ahead of Wooden. I would trust Coach Wooden’s opinion of Murphy‘s abilities (it appears that he had an eye for talent! 😉 ) and nominate Murphy for consideration on Purdue’s Mount Rushmore of men’s basketball.
Once this is settled we can then discuss women’s basketball’s top four…
 
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We do need a fifth on our Rushmore. This is basketball. Five on five. Never set in stone. We can give up the rock.

Wooden, Mount, Carroll, Robinson and …. ? Lots of options. And a mile-long bench.
 
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DAG10 said:
Being critical of Jaden, Bell and/or Karlaftis for their respective decisions is fair...just as being critical of those that jump so quickly to the transfer portal, but, to diminish the fact that all are incredibly good/gifted, and, not appreciate that all chose Purdue...more so in the case of Bell and Karlaftis in that they chose Purdue over better opportunities or programs...is not really fair.

If the NBA actually cared about a guy's true readiness, Ivey would be returning to Purdue for a year, and, there is not a Purdue fan that would not welcome that...if the rules for college basketball were those of football or baseball, he would be returning as well...but, to bash him for choosing to leave because the league that he has dreamed for the entirety of his young life as a basketball player to play in is not just going to make that dream come true, but, make it come true in grand fashion, is definitely not fair...I don't know that I feel like Bell and Karlaftis quit, but, I don't like what they did....understand it, but, don't like it...but, Ivey is not quitting in any form or fashion, and, I am confident that he realizes as much as anyone that he is not a finished product and that he needs to continue to get better...not his fault that someone is willing to pay him millions of dollars to do it.

Name a guy (and there may be one that I admittedly have forgotten or am not aware/thinking of) that was a projected top 5 pick, but, did not declare...because he felt like he needed to get better, or, because he wanted to stay in college another year so that he and his team could have a better year.

I remember last year watching FSU a number of times and just laughing at the idea of Scottie Barnes being a NBA lottery pick...the guy could not have been more disappointing as a college player or fail more to live up to the hype...yet, he declared (and I laughed even more), and, he is having a tremendous year.

Ivey did not do what we had hoped that he would...I don't think he did what he hoped that he would, but, a guy that was not highly recruited...that was not a guy with the acclaim of others...to have elevated his game as he has from the time that he committed to the point that it is at, I don't see how anyone can blame him for taking advantage of the opportunity that exists. We can be critical of his failing to be better...some of that is absolutely on him...a lot of it...but, it is not as if he failed to share the basketball or monopolized it...that he just ran amok on the floor...and, it was not a system that was designed to highlight his skills, or, even take advantage of them largely.

Regardless, he has the opportunity to live out a dream, and, in grand fashion...congratulations to him, and, best wishes as well.
Click to expand...
Hear, hear. Purdue basketball is my sporting obsession (unfortunately 😢), and at times in my life it was almost like a religion to me. I do not care for the NBA, and I have never cared as much for it as college basketball. All that said, Ivey *has* to take the money while he can. That's the whole point of attending a university - to increase future earnings. I will not ever criticize a person for taking that kind of money, at the expense of my alma mater's sports team. With everything I said above, if I were in Ivey's shoes *I* would take the money and run. If he signs an $15M deal and flames out in a year, he can still buy a lot of Purdue basketball tickets. 😀
 
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indyogb said:
Hear, hear. Purdue basketball is my sporting obsession (unfortunately 😢), and at times in my life it was almost like a religion to me. I do not care for the NBA, and I have never cared as much for it as college basketball. All that said, Ivey *has* to take the money while he can. That's the whole point of attending a university - to increase future earnings. I will not ever criticize a person for taking that kind of money, at the expense of my alma mater's sports team. With everything I said above, if I were in Ivey's shoes *I* would take the money and run. If he signs an $15M deal and flames out in a year, he can still buy a lot of Purdue basketball tickets. 😀
Click to expand...
It is the ultimate no-brainer...and, I hate that it is the case, but, it is. The system as it is now just makes it so that guys have to take advantage of the opportunity when it presents.

Like say...college football...college baseball...the option would not even exist...I don't think it even exists for WNBA/College Women's basketball.

Same obsession largely admittedly...even to the point in time of it being a virtual religion. I way prefer college basketball over professional basketball...not even close.

I genuinely wish Ivey would be back for one more year, but, like say, not even a consideration in his case.
 
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Born Boiler said:
We do need a fifth on our Rushmore. This is basketball. Five on five. Never set in stone. We can give up the rock.

Wooden, Mount, Carroll, Robinson and …. ? Lots of options. And a mile-long bench.
Click to expand...
What if Jaden is an NBA All Star in a couple years ?

What if he leads the Pacers back to the NBA Finals some day ? (I know, I know…that would require walking on water)
 
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collegehoopsfan123 said:
Carsen Edwards. Guy was so good and only 5'11'', too.
Click to expand...
Would think that any Consensus AA would get priority over Carsen.

Dischinger would get my vote for #5

Next up Schellhase, then JJ.

The pre-1950's guys get deductions for competing in a watered down, segregated field. Who knows how good guys like Charles Murphy or Elmer Oliphant really were.
 
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FirstDownB said:
Would think that any Consensus AA would get priority over Carsen.

Dischinger would get my vote for #5

Next up Schellhase, then JJ.

The pre-1950's guys get deductions for competing in a watered down, segregated field. Who knows how good guys like Charles Murphy or Elmer Oliphant really were.
Click to expand...

Definitely Dischinger and Schelhase are the next two. I think it gets crowded and too close to choose after them.
 
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New Pal Boiler said:
What if Jaden is an NBA All Star in a couple years ?

What if he leads the Pacers back to the NBA Finals some day ? (I know, I know…that would require walking on water)
Click to expand...

That’d work for me. Favorite Pacer since Brad Miller. Or Billy Keller.
 
indyogb said:
That's the whole point of attending a university - to increase future earnings.
Click to expand...

College also provides a shorter step before jumping into real life … learning and expanding your drinking capacity before doing business over three-Martini lunches. Stirred, never shaken.
 
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FirstDownB said:
Would think that any Consensus AA would get priority over Carsen.

Dischinger would get my vote for #5

Next up Schellhase, then JJ.

The pre-1950's guys get deductions for competing in a watered down, segregated field. Who knows how good guys like Charles Murphy or Elmer Oliphant really were.
Click to expand...
Good stuff. Dischinger and Schellhase with Carsen Edwards were my final 3 for the 5th spot.
I went with Carsen because of his lack of height plus if not for 1 crazy miracle pass from Virginia, Carsen would have led Purdue to our 3rd Final Four.

Can't go wrong with Dischinger or Schellhase either, those guys had no 3 point line, and still scored the ball better than any Boiler not named Rick Mount. Also, forgotten because of no NCAA tournament appearances.

Love JJ but I would take Carsen because of his March Madness success. Go Boilers!

But you are so right if we leave out post-season success.
 
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