OT: Riots/Looting in North St. Louis

[boiler1987]

There was a young African American shot and killed today by a police officer today and in protest, they looted a QT (gas station) and a tire store. Swat teams are assembling. It's nuts!
Posted from wireless.rivals.com[/URL]

 

[S]

Shot 10 times and left laying in the street for four hours. Showed up to candlelight vigil with dogs and riot gear. The militarization of police is unreal with the level of assault equipment they have now. It'll be interesting as Anonymous has threatened to shut down their entire database and release private information of all officers.

S

 

[Amateur Scout]

You've got to love people responding to police oppression with looting, arson, violence, and terrorist threats. The angry mob mentality will look even dumber when the results of the investigation are revealed and the kid who got shot was actually a thug trying to pull the officers' gun away from him

 

[reliobcn]

Regardless, riot gear and assault weapons are a bit much, don't you think? Reminds me of what I saw in Mexico City... when a teacher's union was peacefully demonstrating in the main square. Full battle armor, assault rifles, hundreds of armed officers... you know, to fight back the teachers. lol

Except it's not funny.

 

[snowsquirrel11]

Originally posted by Amateur Scout:
You've got to love people responding to police oppression with looting, arson, violence, and terrorist threats. The angry mob mentality will look even dumber when the results of the investigation are revealed and the kid who got shot was actually a thug trying to pull the officers' gun away from him

Because the standard operation for a kid trying to take your gun is to shoot him 10 times? Sounds about right. In fact posts like yours actually make YOU look dumber.

 

[choptalk]

Better call in Rev Jesse Jackson.

 

[colburnr]

Originally posted by snowsquirrel11:

Originally posted by Amateur Scout:
You've got to love people responding to police oppression with looting, arson, violence, and terrorist threats. The angry mob mentality will look even dumber when the results of the investigation are revealed and the kid who got shot was actually a thug trying to pull the officers' gun away from him

Because the standard operation for a kid trying to take your gun is to shoot him 10 times? Sounds about right. In fact posts like yours actually make YOU look dumber.

Have you ever been in a position where someone is trying to take your life?? Probably not...love it when all of these Monday-morning quarterbacks think they have all of the answers. How about we wait to see what the investigation reveals???
Posted from wireless.rivals.com[/URL]

 

[BoilerCop]

actually yes most SOPs state that going for an officers gun is a reasonable justification for lethal use of force
Posted from wireless.rivals.com[/URL]

 

[Jedifick]

kid was a thug that tried to take a cop's gun. Now, the community is using it as an excuse to pillage. Simple as that
Posted from wireless.rivals.com[/URL]

 

[boiler1987]

The looting last night was insane. I was glued to the tv for hours watching them steal rims, ATM machines, etc...
Posted from wireless.rivals.com[/URL]

 

[denpesc]

Originally posted by Jedifick:
kid was a thug that tried to take a cop's gun. Now, the community is using it as an excuse to pillage. Simple as that
Posted from wireless.rivals.com

From the stories, kid didn't seem like a thug. He may have panicked; same for the officer. A really sad situation whenever something like this happens. Some people use it as an excuse to go get some free stuff, which just casts a bad light on the community that is supposedly the victim of stuff like this.

Don't jump to conclusions.

 

[BleedinGold]

Regardless of the facts of this case, the overall militarization of the police forces in this country is a huge problem, and a threat to the civilian populace and individual freedoms. And in my opinion will be a threat to the police forces themselves -- in the end.

We can thank the last 13 years of war for this. All this extra hardware leaves small towns with left over arms, vehicles, etc. All the small towns have to do is "cover the maintenance" on some of these behemoths.

And well if the taxpayers are paying for these toys, and the police have to train with them ... guess what's going to happen? They are going to be used.

Fortunately the U.S. mainland isn't a warzone, and many of these arms are overkill (no pun intended). It just ends up making the police look bad, creates civil unrest, and perpetuates the problem.

It's a lot like the old idea "Believe it, and it will be true". Well if the police believe civilians are all armed militants (eg thugs, gangs, etc) and treat all civilians as such, then they breed it. And vice versa. If civilians see police over-respond to a situation and/or abuse their power in anyway during that over repsonse it creats contempt and that contempt breeds on itself. This leaves the police in a situation where they are facing this ever increasing backlash on social media and now in the streets.

And what sucks I don't even know what the answer is.... but I sure would have liked to see the police use the "less is more" approach. But I understand it's their lives on the line out there, and they don't want to ever feel like they are in a situation where it's "out gunned".

It will only get worse before it gets better. Unfortunately.

 

[stout1]

Originally posted by reliobcn:
Full battle armor, assault rifles, hundreds of armed officers... you know, to fight back the teachers.

Watch out, you just described the wet dreams of some posters on here.

 

[spoiledboiler2000]

Interesting part is how the media portrays young African Americans as thugs and Cops racist terrorist when an extremely unfortunate incident occurs. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground, like the kid/police officer just got scared and potentially did something stupid. It bothers me that America no longer believes in due process and how quickly we jump to biases and sterotypes to validate our uninformed opinions that we all SWEAR to not to believe in or support. FYI, thugs don't graduate from school and bad cops are the minority. Let's stop the nonsense here fellow Boilers and begin to re-institute the believes and convictions that make America great. So please, before we demonize the kid or the police officer, wait for the facts to be released. Now back the more enjoyable topics of the day:
Who will be our starting QB?Has the Oline improved enough to keep the boat afloat for the first 3 games?Will Gelen or Bently start and where?Lastly, why in the RB drills are all of our backs turning their shoulders during contact? What happened to keeping your shoulder pads north and south. Starting to get a better understanding as to why we were so horrible in short yardage last year.

 

[timster]

Police should have the better equipment than the other guys
When Police officers used to respond to calls w 9mm pistols facing off v Semi Automatic rifles w armor piercing capabilities it has forced departments across the US to step up.....Meth, Crack, Illegal Aliens, gangs, terrorism has become a small town USA problem and departments have to be prepared

 

[BleedinGold]

Originally posted by timster:
Police should have the better equipment than the other guys
When Police officers used to respond to calls w 9mm pistols facing off v Semi Automatic rifles w armor piercing capabilities it has forced departments across the US to step up.....Meth, Crack, Illegal Aliens, gangs, terrorism has become a small town USA problem and departments have to be prepared

I disagree. I don't feel limited/isolated incidents need to always require a drastic change in policies.

Most small towns don't have criminals shooting at them with "semi-automatic rifles w armor piercing capabilities". And I think it's an extremely small percentage (probably less than 1%) where weapons of that caliber are being used.

But I get it, they dont' want to EVER be in a situation where they are out-gunned. Unfortnately though that sometimes puts the police on the other side of the coin -- where they can come in and escalate or over respond to a situation.

It leads to distrust on both sides.

There will be a much bigger incident than St Louis within the next 5-10 years.

Curious, can anyone give me a LOGICAL reason for Lawrence's recent purhcase of a 48,000 "mine-resistant ambush protectant vehicle"?

Lawrence isn't alone in the state. According to the below article Johnson County, Morgan County, Jefferson County, West Lafayette Police, Merrillville, Mishawaka, and Terre Haute all have one of these vehicles as well.

Seriously does West Lafayette really need one of these things? Can any one name me an incident in the last 25 years in West Lafayette where that vehicle makes any logical choice of needing to have?

Maybe they could have used it on the students when they "rioted" after the women's national championship.

I know that "tank" is an extreme example. But its actually a perfect example... if the police forces are already mobilizing with such size it's a guarantee they have already out-gunned most small countries -- let alone any criminal threat withing their districts.



We're saving some gas, with this beast!

 

[BoilerMadness]

Originally posted by spoiledboiler2000:
Interesting part is how the media portrays young African Americans as thugs and Cops racist terrorist when an extremely unfortunate incident occurs. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground, like the kid/police officer just got scared and potentially did something stupid. It bothers me that America no longer believes in due process and how quickly we jump to biases and sterotypes to validate our uninformed opinions that we all SWEAR to not to believe in or support. FYI, thugs don't graduate from school and bad cops are the minority. Let's stop the nonsense here fellow Boilers and begin to re-institute the believes and convictions that make America great. So please, before we demonize the kid or the police officer, wait for the facts to be released. Now back the more enjoyable topics of the day:


Who will be our starting QB?
Has the Oline improved enough to keep the boat afloat for the first 3 games?
Will Gelen or Bently start and where?
Lastly, why in the RB drills are all of our backs turning their shoulders during contact? What happened to keeping your shoulder pads north and south. Starting to get a better understanding as to why we were so horrible in short yardage last year.

I can go along with most of what you said, except. "FYI, thugs don't graduate from school".

I don't believe there are any minimum or maximum educational requirements for thugs. I believe we've all seen thugs that have played professional sports, thus they've graduated HS and attended college. Thuggery is not a function of education, it's a matter of attitude.

 

[timster]

What do you base your prediction on when you say there will be an event in the next 5-10 years?

Agree to disagree on departments needing what they have

DNR Officers now have to be armed in the event they stumble across Pot farms
Meth in small towns is a huge problem and started in rural Iowa
Domestic terrorism and terrorism can hit anywhere
Gangs continue to grow

Post 9/11 USA has changed this country and response to threats

 

[BoilerMadness]

And yet

Originally posted by reliobcn:
Regardless, riot gear and assault weapons are a bit much, don't you think? Reminds me of what I saw in Mexico City... when a teacher's union was peacefully demonstrating in the main square. Full battle armor, assault rifles, hundreds of armed officers... you know, to fight back the teachers. lol

Except it's not funny.

some of the most violent protests I've ever seen were by the Anti-War Peace protesters in the 1960s.

What you don't seem to realize is, that there is a lot of crazy in this world. Police never know what to expect in these situations. When it comes to arms, I've always felt that it's better to have it and NOT need it, than to need it and not have it.

 

[Toast.]

Re: And yet

Originally posted by BigE23:

Originally posted by reliobcn:
Regardless, riot gear and assault weapons are a bit much, don't you think? Reminds me of what I saw in Mexico City... when a teacher's union was peacefully demonstrating in the main square. Full battle armor, assault rifles, hundreds of armed officers... you know, to fight back the teachers. lol

Except it's not funny.

some of the most violent protests I've ever seen were by the Anti-War Peace protesters in the 1960s.

What you don't seem to realize is, that there is a lot of crazy in this world. Police never know what to expect in these situations. When it comes to arms, I've always felt that it's better to have it and NOT need it, than to need it and not have it.

so it's like a condom?

 

[QuadBoiler]

Originally posted by BleedinGold:

Originally posted by timster:
Police should have the better equipment than the other guys
When Police officers used to respond to calls w 9mm pistols facing off v Semi Automatic rifles w armor piercing capabilities it has forced departments across the US to step up.....Meth, Crack, Illegal Aliens, gangs, terrorism has become a small town USA problem and departments have to be prepared

I disagree. I don't feel limited/isolated incidents need to always require a drastic change in policies.

Most small towns don't have criminals shooting at them with "semi-automatic rifles w armor piercing capabilities". And I think it's an extremely small percentage (probably less than 1%) where weapons of that caliber are being used.

But I get it, they dont' want to EVER be in a situation where they are out-gunned. Unfortnately though that sometimes puts the police on the other side of the coin -- where they can come in and escalate or over respond to a situation.

It leads to distrust on both sides.

There will be a much bigger incident than St Louis within the next 5-10 years.

Curious, can anyone give me a LOGICAL reason for Lawrence's recent purhcase of a 48,000 "mine-resistant ambush protectant vehicle"?

Lawrence isn't alone in the state. According to the below article Johnson County, Morgan County, Jefferson County, West Lafayette Police, Merrillville, Mishawaka, and Terre Haute all have one of these vehicles as well.

Seriously does West Lafayette really need one of these things? Can any one name me an incident in the last 25 years in West Lafayette where that vehicle makes any logical choice of needing to have?

Maybe they could have used it on the students when they "rioted" after the women's national championship.

I know that "tank" is an extreme example. But its actually a perfect example... if the police forces are already mobilizing with such size it's a guarantee they have already out-gunned most small countries -- let alone any criminal threat withing their districts.



Link: We're saving some gas, with this beast!

Did you actually read the article? It laid out a few possibilities for use of that vehicle and I'm sure there are plenty more. The captain also specifically states, "we'd rather have it and never need it than need it and wish we had it." I guess I don't see the big problem, it's not like they bring the thing out to give people traffic tickets. And btw, this "purchase" was just over $6,000 for shipping from Texas. The article says the military donates these things to local law enforcement.
Posted from wireless.rivals.com

This post was edited on 8/11 10:15 AM by QuadBoiler

 

[BoilerMadness]

Re: And yet

Originally posted by Toast.:

Originally posted by BigE23:

Originally posted by reliobcn:
Regardless, riot gear and assault weapons are a bit much, don't you think? Reminds me of what I saw in Mexico City... when a teacher's union was peacefully demonstrating in the main square. Full battle armor, assault rifles, hundreds of armed officers... you know, to fight back the teachers. lol

Except it's not funny.

some of the most violent protests I've ever seen were by the Anti-War Peace protesters in the 1960s.

What you don't seem to realize is, that there is a lot of crazy in this world. Police never know what to expect in these situations. When it comes to arms, I've always felt that it's better to have it and NOT need it, than to need it and not have it.

so it's like a condom?

Exactly. It's to prevent an unwanted occurrence......

 

[BoilerMadness]

Unfortunately,

Originally posted by denpesc:

Originally posted by Jedifick:
kid was a thug that tried to take a cop's gun. Now, the community is using it as an excuse to pillage. Simple as that

Posted from wireless.rivals.com

From the stories, kid didn't seem like a thug. He may have panicked; same for the officer. A really sad situation whenever something like this happens. Some people use it as an excuse to go get some free stuff, which just casts a bad light on the community that is supposedly the victim of stuff like this.

Don't jump to conclusions.

it happens too often. There was rioting and looting after the Rodney King beatings. There was rioting and looting after the OJ Simpson decision. It doesn't seem like it takes too much to start rioting and looting.

What's never ceased to amaze me is, that people riot, loot and burn down the stores in their neighborhood, then complain because new businesses don't want to locate there. Apparently, they don't understand cause and effect relationships.

 

[BleedinGold]

Originally posted by timster:
What do you base your prediction on when you say there will be an event in the next 5-10 years?

Agree to disagree on departments needing what they have

DNR Officers now have to be armed in the event they stumble across Pot farms
Meth in small towns is a huge problem and started in rural Iowa
Domestic terrorism and terrorism can hit anywhere
Gangs continue to grow

Post 9/11 USA has changed this country and response to threats

That statement was a pure assumption based on the increased clashes between police and the civilian populaces. In my opinion it's only a matter of time before something gets escalated to a point where a major riot/event occurs.

Re: Post 9/11 USA has changed this country and response to threats

I agree, and not always in a good way. The Patriot Act was a prime example. The over-militarization of the police force is another example. The bloated department of Homeland Security is a another. The unauthorized surveillance of American citizens by the NSA is another. The ballooning national debt is another.

None of these things either existed or were a driving force pre-9/11.

I've always wondered a bit if we have actually "lost" the War on Terrorism. Not in a defining moment, but in the overall way American society was altered. From a blatant distrust of our neighbors, to an adoption of a "win at all costs" strategy (even when "winning" isn't clearly defined and "all costs" leads cities, states, and the country into a financial abyss that will be hard for us to recover).

This entire thread obviously has been hi-jacked by myself -- and I've even just hi-jacked my original hi-jack. So I'm cutting myself off.

But thanks for keeping the discussion civil. That alone gives me hope that maybe one day we can all work together to resolve some of the issues that our communites and our country face.

 

[BoilerMakerBear]

Re: Unfortunately,

Originally posted by BigE23:

Originally posted by denpesc:

Originally posted by Jedifick:
kid was a thug that tried to take a cop's gun. Now, the community is using it as an excuse to pillage. Simple as that


Posted from wireless.rivals.com

From the stories, kid didn't seem like a thug. He may have panicked; same for the officer. A really sad situation whenever something like this happens. Some people use it as an excuse to go get some free stuff, which just casts a bad light on the community that is supposedly the victim of stuff like this.

Don't jump to conclusions.

it happens too often. There was rioting and looting after the Rodney King beatings. There was rioting and looting after the OJ Simpson decision. It doesn't seem like it takes too much to start rioting and looting.

What's never ceased to amaze me is, that people riot, loot and burn down the stores in their neighborhood, then complain because new businesses don't want to locate there. Apparently, they don't understand cause and effect relationships.

Protest, have Vigils, Go to media, Rally.....

The Rioting-looting is silly....no reason to steal and burn your own neighborhood down time and time again.

March on the Police precinct...anything...but to just steal...burn and destroy. Awful.

Soon..we will see the Rev Al show up and get in front of the camera....Rev Jackson will be here...MSNBC will do 5 days on this, 24 hours a day

It becomes a very emotional, uneducated circus from here...both sides of the media will distort this....

 

[BleedinGold]

Originally posted by QuadBoiler:

Originally posted by BleedinGold:

Originally posted by timster:
Police should have the better equipment than the other guys
When Police officers used to respond to calls w 9mm pistols facing off v Semi Automatic rifles w armor piercing capabilities it has forced departments across the US to step up.....Meth, Crack, Illegal Aliens, gangs, terrorism has become a small town USA problem and departments have to be prepared

I disagree. I don't feel limited/isolated incidents need to always require a drastic change in policies.

Most small towns don't have criminals shooting at them with "semi-automatic rifles w armor piercing capabilities". And I think it's an extremely small percentage (probably less than 1%) where weapons of that caliber are being used.

But I get it, they dont' want to EVER be in a situation where they are out-gunned. Unfortnately though that sometimes puts the police on the other side of the coin -- where they can come in and escalate or over respond to a situation.

It leads to distrust on both sides.

There will be a much bigger incident than St Louis within the next 5-10 years.

Curious, can anyone give me a LOGICAL reason for Lawrence's recent purhcase of a 48,000 "mine-resistant ambush protectant vehicle"?

Lawrence isn't alone in the state. According to the below article Johnson County, Morgan County, Jefferson County, West Lafayette Police, Merrillville, Mishawaka, and Terre Haute all have one of these vehicles as well.

Seriously does West Lafayette really need one of these things? Can any one name me an incident in the last 25 years in West Lafayette where that vehicle makes any logical choice of needing to have?

Maybe they could have used it on the students when they "rioted" after the women's national championship.

I know that "tank" is an extreme example. But its actually a perfect example... if the police forces are already mobilizing with such size it's a guarantee they have already out-gunned most small countries -- let alone any criminal threat withing their districts.



Link: We're saving some gas, with this beast!

Did you actually read the article? It laid out a few possibilities for use of that vehicle and I'm sure there are plenty more. The captain also specifically states, "we'd rather have it and never need it than need it and wish we had it." I guess I don't see the big problem, it's not like they bring the thing out to give people traffic tickets. And btw, this "purchase" was just over $6,000 for shipping from Texas. The article says the military donates these things to local law enforcement.
Posted from wireless.rivals.com

This post was edited on 8/11 10:15 AM by QuadBoiler

Yeah I read it. And I disagree.

"Woodruff said the department would use the MRAP in emergencies involving
the SWAT team, like in the case of a mass shooting or a bomb threat."

When was the last mass shooting or successful bomb explosion that occurred in any of those listed districts? Or heck even in the entire state?

"The department has used a large armored car before, including a standoff
at a residence being burglarized. That vehicle was brought in front of
the house and sheltered the SWAT team while officers approached the
suspects. That situation was peacefully resolved."

There were millions of 'stand-offs' that have occurred prior to the use of MRAPs were the situations were peacefully resolved. If the article is trying to say that this one incident was resolved because of the use of the MRAP, I believe that to be an over-reaching statement.

"The armored car could also help the department get around in severe
weather, as it can operate in as deep as 4 feet of water, he said."

When was the last time any community in this state was under 4 feet of water? And if it ever did happen is the MRAP really the optimal vehicle of choice? It's one vehicle. I would offer that a fleet of small fishing boats with trollers would be a better tactical response in a situation where there is 4 ft of water.

My whole point is if the police/city/states/federal government are playing a cat and mouse game against their imagination -- or at best against past isolated incidents.

All I ask is that communities ask themselves is that preparation worth both the financial cost and the societal costs.

My thesis is that in most cases the answer to both of those questions is "No."

 

[colburnr]

Originally posted by spoiledboiler2000:
Interesting part is how the media portrays young African Americans as thugs and Cops racist terrorist when an extremely unfortunate incident occurs. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground, like the kid/police officer just got scared and potentially did something stupid. It bothers me that America no longer believes in due process and how quickly we jump to biases and sterotypes to validate our uninformed opinions that we all SWEAR to not to believe in or support. FYI, thugs don't graduate from school and bad cops are the minority. Let's stop the nonsense here fellow Boilers and begin to re-institute the believes and convictions that make America great. So please, before we demonize the kid or the police officer, wait for the facts to be released. Now back the more enjoyable topics of the day:
Who will be our starting QB?Has the Oline improved enough to keep the boat afloat for the first 3 games?Will Gelen or Bently start and where?Lastly, why in the RB drills are all of our backs turning their shoulders during contact? What happened to keeping your shoulder pads north and south. Starting to get a better understanding as to why we were so horrible in short yardage last year.

Great post...I couldn't agree more.

 

[colburnr]

Originally posted by BleedinGold:

Originally posted by timster:
Police should have the better equipment than the other guys
When Police officers used to respond to calls w 9mm pistols facing off v Semi Automatic rifles w armor piercing capabilities it has forced departments across the US to step up.....Meth, Crack, Illegal Aliens, gangs, terrorism has become a small town USA problem and departments have to be prepared

I disagree. I don't feel limited/isolated incidents need to always require a drastic change in policies.

Most small towns don't have criminals shooting at them with "semi-automatic rifles w armor piercing capabilities". And I think it's an extremely small percentage (probably less than 1%) where weapons of that caliber are being used.

But I get it, they dont' want to EVER be in a situation where they are out-gunned. Unfortnately though that sometimes puts the police on the other side of the coin -- where they can come in and escalate or over respond to a situation.

It leads to distrust on both sides.

There will be a much bigger incident than St Louis within the next 5-10 years.

Curious, can anyone give me a LOGICAL reason for Lawrence's recent purhcase of a 48,000 "mine-resistant ambush protectant vehicle"?

Lawrence isn't alone in the state. According to the below article Johnson County, Morgan County, Jefferson County, West Lafayette Police, Merrillville, Mishawaka, and Terre Haute all have one of these vehicles as well.

Seriously does West Lafayette really need one of these things? Can any one name me an incident in the last 25 years in West Lafayette where that vehicle makes any logical choice of needing to have?

Maybe they could have used it on the students when they "rioted" after the women's national championship.

I know that "tank" is an extreme example. But its actually a perfect example... if the police forces are already mobilizing with such size it's a guarantee they have already out-gunned most small countries -- let alone any criminal threat withing their districts.

Wrong...The reason police forces are better equipped these days are due to the fact that many officers lives have been lost as a result of being "outgunned." This really began to become prominent with the drug wars in the 80's. Shoot...look at Chicago, it's a freaking war zone. There is a lot of research that goes on in the LE community regarding risk assessment, etc... A police department just doesn't think, "gee whiz let's get a tank to play with." Crazy thing are happening everywhere now days, even in small towns. As for your examples of the towns/cities who purchased the armored vehicles, I can't speak for all of them, but as someone who lives close to Merrillville and has 2 friends whom are Merrillville cops, yeah it is pretty bad in Merrillville. Also, as someone who works in the LE community, remember there is a TON the public does not know, hear, etc...

 

[QuadBoiler]

Originally posted by BleedinGold:

Originally posted by QuadBoiler:

Originally posted by BleedinGold:

Originally posted by timster:
Police should have the better equipment than the other guys
When Police officers used to respond to calls w 9mm pistols facing off v Semi Automatic rifles w armor piercing capabilities it has forced departments across the US to step up.....Meth, Crack, Illegal Aliens, gangs, terrorism has become a small town USA problem and departments have to be prepared

I disagree. I don't feel limited/isolated incidents need to always require a drastic change in policies.

Most small towns don't have criminals shooting at them with "semi-automatic rifles w armor piercing capabilities". And I think it's an extremely small percentage (probably less than 1%) where weapons of that caliber are being used.

But I get it, they dont' want to EVER be in a situation where they are out-gunned. Unfortnately though that sometimes puts the police on the other side of the coin -- where they can come in and escalate or over respond to a situation.

It leads to distrust on both sides.

There will be a much bigger incident than St Louis within the next 5-10 years.

Curious, can anyone give me a LOGICAL reason for Lawrence's recent purhcase of a 48,000 "mine-resistant ambush protectant vehicle"?

Lawrence isn't alone in the state. According to the below article Johnson County, Morgan County, Jefferson County, West Lafayette Police, Merrillville, Mishawaka, and Terre Haute all have one of these vehicles as well.

Seriously does West Lafayette really need one of these things? Can any one name me an incident in the last 25 years in West Lafayette where that vehicle makes any logical choice of needing to have?

Maybe they could have used it on the students when they "rioted" after the women's national championship.

I know that "tank" is an extreme example. But its actually a perfect example... if the police forces are already mobilizing with such size it's a guarantee they have already out-gunned most small countries -- let alone any criminal threat withing their districts.



Link: We're saving some gas, with this beast!

Did you actually read the article? It laid out a few possibilities for use of that vehicle and I'm sure there are plenty more. The captain also specifically states, "we'd rather have it and never need it than need it and wish we had it." I guess I don't see the big problem, it's not like they bring the thing out to give people traffic tickets. And btw, this "purchase" was just over $6,000 for shipping from Texas. The article says the military donates these things to local law enforcement.
Posted from wireless.rivals.com

This post was edited on 8/11 10:15 AM by QuadBoiler

Yeah I read it. And I disagree.

"Woodruff said the department would use the MRAP in emergencies involving
the SWAT team, like in the case of a mass shooting or a bomb threat."

When was the last mass shooting or successful bomb explosion that occurred in any of those listed districts? Or heck even in the entire state?

"The department has used a large armored car before, including a standoff
at a residence being burglarized. That vehicle was brought in front of
the house and sheltered the SWAT team while officers approached the
suspects. That situation was peacefully resolved."

There were millions of 'stand-offs' that have occurred prior to the use of MRAPs were the situations were peacefully resolved. If the article is trying to say that this one incident was resolved because of the use of the MRAP, I believe that to be an over-reaching statement.

"The armored car could also help the department get around in severe
weather, as it can operate in as deep as 4 feet of water, he said."

When was the last time any community in this state was under 4 feet of water? And if it ever did happen is the MRAP really the optimal vehicle of choice? It's one vehicle. I would offer that a fleet of small fishing boats with trollers would be a better tactical response in a situation where there is 4 ft of water.

My whole point is if the police/city/states/federal government are playing a cat and mouse game against their imagination -- or at best against past isolated incidents.

All I ask is that communities ask themselves is that preparation worth both the financial cost and the societal costs.

My thesis is that in most cases the answer to both of those questions is "No."

And once again, I go back to, it's better to need and not have than to have and not need. "When was the last time..." is a meaningless statement here IMO. When was the last time before 1997 that police officers needed assault rifles to deal with a situation? No one knows when or where a situation that might require something like this will occur. If this vehicle stays in the garage for 20 years and never gets used, great. But at least if something comes up where it would be useful, they have it available to them.
Posted from wireless.rivals.com[/URL]

 

[BoilerMadness]

Re: Unfortunately,

Originally posted by BoilerMakerBear:

Originally posted by BigE23:

Originally posted by denpesc:

Originally posted by Jedifick:
kid was a thug that tried to take a cop's gun. Now, the community is using it as an excuse to pillage. Simple as that



Posted from wireless.rivals.com

From the stories, kid didn't seem like a thug. He may have panicked; same for the officer. A really sad situation whenever something like this happens. Some people use it as an excuse to go get some free stuff, which just casts a bad light on the community that is supposedly the victim of stuff like this.

Don't jump to conclusions.

it happens too often. There was rioting and looting after the Rodney King beatings. There was rioting and looting after the OJ Simpson decision. It doesn't seem like it takes too much to start rioting and looting.

What's never ceased to amaze me is, that people riot, loot and burn down the stores in their neighborhood, then complain because new businesses don't want to locate there. Apparently, they don't understand cause and effect relationships.

Protest, have Vigils, Go to media, Rally.....

The Rioting-looting is silly....no reason to steal and burn your own neighborhood down time and time again.

March on the Police precinct...anything...but to just steal...burn and destroy. Awful.

Soon..we will see the Rev Al show up and get in front of the camera....Rev Jackson will be here...MSNBC will do 5 days on this, 24 hours a day

It becomes a very emotional, uneducated circus from here...both sides of the media will distort this....

Yup, unfortunately, you're right. I'm still waiting for the day when Al and Jesse defuse one of these situations, rather than escalate them, in an effort to keep themselves relevant.

 

[BleedinGold]

Originally posted by colburnr:

Originally posted by BleedinGold:

Originally posted by timster:
Police should have the better equipment than the other guys
When Police officers used to respond to calls w 9mm pistols facing off v Semi Automatic rifles w armor piercing capabilities it has forced departments across the US to step up.....Meth, Crack, Illegal Aliens, gangs, terrorism has become a small town USA problem and departments have to be prepared

I disagree. I don't feel limited/isolated incidents need to always require a drastic change in policies.

Most small towns don't have criminals shooting at them with "semi-automatic rifles w armor piercing capabilities". And I think it's an extremely small percentage (probably less than 1%) where weapons of that caliber are being used.

But I get it, they dont' want to EVER be in a situation where they are out-gunned. Unfortnately though that sometimes puts the police on the other side of the coin -- where they can come in and escalate or over respond to a situation.

It leads to distrust on both sides.

There will be a much bigger incident than St Louis within the next 5-10 years.

Curious, can anyone give me a LOGICAL reason for Lawrence's recent purhcase of a 48,000 "mine-resistant ambush protectant vehicle"?

Lawrence isn't alone in the state. According to the below article Johnson County, Morgan County, Jefferson County, West Lafayette Police, Merrillville, Mishawaka, and Terre Haute all have one of these vehicles as well.

Seriously does West Lafayette really need one of these things? Can any one name me an incident in the last 25 years in West Lafayette where that vehicle makes any logical choice of needing to have?

Maybe they could have used it on the students when they "rioted" after the women's national championship.

I know that "tank" is an extreme example. But its actually a perfect example... if the police forces are already mobilizing with such size it's a guarantee they have already out-gunned most small countries -- let alone any criminal threat withing their districts.

Wrong...The reason police forces are better equipped these days are due to the fact that many officers lives have been lost as a result of being "outgunned." This really began to become prominent with the drug wars in the 80's. Shoot...look at Chicago, it's a freaking war zone. There is a lot of research that goes on in the LE community regarding risk assessment, etc... A police department just doesn't think, "gee whiz let's get a tank to play with." Crazy thing are happening everywhere now days, even in small towns. As for your examples of the towns/cities who purchased the armored vehicles, I can't speak for all of them, but as someone who lives close to Merrillville and has 2 friends whom are Merrillville cops, yeah it is pretty bad in Merrillville. Also, as someone who works in the LE community, remember there is a TON the public does not know, hear, etc...

We'll just agree to disagree.

 

[ChuckJr]

Chicago?

How can you say Chicago is a war zone? This is the home of our great President and they have strict gun controls. Better get your facts straight. On second thought, you're probably right but I'm sure Obama will fix it as soon as he gets back from vacation.

 

[BoilerMakerBear]

Re: Unfortunately,

Originally posted by BigE23:

Originally posted by BoilerMakerBear:

Originally posted by BigE23:

Originally posted by denpesc:

Originally posted by Jedifick:
kid was a thug that tried to take a cop's gun. Now, the community is using it as an excuse to pillage. Simple as that




Posted from wireless.rivals.com

From the stories, kid didn't seem like a thug. He may have panicked; same for the officer. A really sad situation whenever something like this happens. Some people use it as an excuse to go get some free stuff, which just casts a bad light on the community that is supposedly the victim of stuff like this.

Don't jump to conclusions.

it happens too often. There was rioting and looting after the Rodney King beatings. There was rioting and looting after the OJ Simpson decision. It doesn't seem like it takes too much to start rioting and looting.

What's never ceased to amaze me is, that people riot, loot and burn down the stores in their neighborhood, then complain because new businesses don't want to locate there. Apparently, they don't understand cause and effect relationships.

Protest, have Vigils, Go to media, Rally.....

The Rioting-looting is silly....no reason to steal and burn your own neighborhood down time and time again.

March on the Police precinct...anything...but to just steal...burn and destroy. Awful.

Soon..we will see the Rev Al show up and get in front of the camera....Rev Jackson will be here...MSNBC will do 5 days on this, 24 hours a day

It becomes a very emotional, uneducated circus from here...both sides of the media will distort this....

Yup, unfortunately, you're right. I'm still waiting for the day when Al and Jesse defuse one of these situations, rather than escalate them, in an effort to keep themselves relevant.

Sharpton and Jackson are Grievance industry entrepreneurs.....they LIVE for this type of moment...they rarely have the facts...they are just baiters..

 

[PUdadinINdy]

The sad part is it isn't even the media any longer. With every incident, we are bombarded with videos and pictures from individual citizens with no knowledge or context of the situation. We get the isolated 5-10 seconds of the action. We miss out on the 5 minutes leading up to and causing the situation. Then we miss out on the 5 minutes after when things are often resolved.

 

[Purdue4Life]

Re: Chicago?

Originally posted by ChuckJr:
How can you say Chicago is a war zone? This is the home of our great President and they have strict gun controls. Better get your facts straight. On second thought, you're probably right but I'm sure Obama will fix it as soon as he gets back from vacation.

Shocking, a dumbass response to a dumbass response in the first place.

This whole thread should be in GD board anyways.

 

[timster]

All good stuff to think about and if our politicians could keep issues civil and work on solutions we all would be better off

As another aside
Wife and I were married October of 2001
Lot of family would not fly due to increased security and also their own apprehension of what could happen w flights (most were elderly flying in from LA or CO...)

We honeymooned in St Maarten in the Caribbean, flew via Miami, and then Puerto Rico ....the amount of machine guns, German Shepherds, and pat downs was alarming and also re assuring

On St Maarten, the French and Dutch Marines held some sort of response joint exercises w full military units appearing and taking over the island around 0600
I walked down from our resort on the hill to do my morning trek to a French pastry cafe for coffee etc
I about shit my drawers when camoflouged in a shrub in a bend in the street was a .50 cal machine gun crew that I did not see until I was almost on top of them...I started to see additional concealed troops along my route and all I could think was something terrible had taken place again

Another funny aside, my wife joined me later and had on her bikini top and covered bottom ....but the "troops" were all eyeballs ....my wife was talking w some of them trying to figure out what was going on...she drew a small crowd of troops as. I was still in the cafe ordering
The Sergeant or leader came out and chewed out the troops In French for not attending go to their post/duties and being all eyeballs w my wife's anatomy..

 

[QuadBoiler]

Originally posted by ChuckJr:
How can you say Chicago is a war zone? This is the home of our great President and they have strict gun controls. Better get your facts straight. On second thought, you're probably right but I'm sure Obama will fix it as soon as he gets back from vacation.

Not really sure what the point of this post was. Whatever helps you share your Obama bitching I guess...
Posted from wireless.rivals.com[/URL]

 

[BleedinGold]

Originally posted by QuadBoiler:

Originally posted by BleedinGold:

Originally posted by QuadBoiler:

Originally posted by BleedinGold:

Originally posted by timster:
Police should have the better equipment than the other guys
When Police officers used to respond to calls w 9mm pistols facing off v Semi Automatic rifles w armor piercing capabilities it has forced departments across the US to step up.....Meth, Crack, Illegal Aliens, gangs, terrorism has become a small town USA problem and departments have to be prepared

I disagree. I don't feel limited/isolated incidents need to always require a drastic change in policies.

Most small towns don't have criminals shooting at them with "semi-automatic rifles w armor piercing capabilities". And I think it's an extremely small percentage (probably less than 1%) where weapons of that caliber are being used.

But I get it, they dont' want to EVER be in a situation where they are out-gunned. Unfortnately though that sometimes puts the police on the other side of the coin -- where they can come in and escalate or over respond to a situation.

It leads to distrust on both sides.

There will be a much bigger incident than St Louis within the next 5-10 years.

Curious, can anyone give me a LOGICAL reason for Lawrence's recent purhcase of a 48,000 "mine-resistant ambush protectant vehicle"?

Lawrence isn't alone in the state. According to the below article Johnson County, Morgan County, Jefferson County, West Lafayette Police, Merrillville, Mishawaka, and Terre Haute all have one of these vehicles as well.

Seriously does West Lafayette really need one of these things? Can any one name me an incident in the last 25 years in West Lafayette where that vehicle makes any logical choice of needing to have?

Maybe they could have used it on the students when they "rioted" after the women's national championship.

I know that "tank" is an extreme example. But its actually a perfect example... if the police forces are already mobilizing with such size it's a guarantee they have already out-gunned most small countries -- let alone any criminal threat withing their districts.



Link: We're saving some gas, with this beast!

Did you actually read the article? It laid out a few possibilities for use of that vehicle and I'm sure there are plenty more. The captain also specifically states, "we'd rather have it and never need it than need it and wish we had it." I guess I don't see the big problem, it's not like they bring the thing out to give people traffic tickets. And btw, this "purchase" was just over $6,000 for shipping from Texas. The article says the military donates these things to local law enforcement.
Posted from wireless.rivals.com

This post was edited on 8/11 10:15 AM by QuadBoiler

Yeah I read it. And I disagree.

"Woodruff said the department would use the MRAP in emergencies involving
the SWAT team, like in the case of a mass shooting or a bomb threat."

When was the last mass shooting or successful bomb explosion that occurred in any of those listed districts? Or heck even in the entire state?

"The department has used a large armored car before, including a standoff
at a residence being burglarized. That vehicle was brought in front of
the house and sheltered the SWAT team while officers approached the
suspects. That situation was peacefully resolved."

There were millions of 'stand-offs' that have occurred prior to the use of MRAPs were the situations were peacefully resolved. If the article is trying to say that this one incident was resolved because of the use of the MRAP, I believe that to be an over-reaching statement.

"The armored car could also help the department get around in severe
weather, as it can operate in as deep as 4 feet of water, he said."

When was the last time any community in this state was under 4 feet of water? And if it ever did happen is the MRAP really the optimal vehicle of choice? It's one vehicle. I would offer that a fleet of small fishing boats with trollers would be a better tactical response in a situation where there is 4 ft of water.

My whole point is if the police/city/states/federal government are playing a cat and mouse game against their imagination -- or at best against past isolated incidents.

All I ask is that communities ask themselves is that preparation worth both the financial cost and the societal costs.

My thesis is that in most cases the answer to both of those questions is "No."

And once again, I go back to, it's better to need and not have than to have and not need. "When was the last time..." is a meaningless statement here IMO. When was the last time before 1997 that police officers needed assault rifles to deal with a situation? No one knows when or where a situation that might require something like this will occur. If this vehicle stays in the garage for 20 years and never gets used, great. But at least if something comes up where it would be useful, they have it available to them.
Posted from wireless.rivals.com

That's my whole point. We're playing a cat and mouse game with "What If's".

We wonder why this country is going broke? Why educational systems have to cut teachers? Why police forces have to cut personnel? Why fire departments are understaffed? Why infrastructure/bridges are falling apart?

Well it could be because we're so worried about what MAY happen that we don't see what IS happening.

We're playing a game where let's acquire as much arsenal "in case something happens". Instead of prioritizing the likelihood of that actually happening.

It's like planning to spend the Powerball winnings, knowing full well you will probably never win anyways. "Let's arm up, just in case X,Y,Z happens."

Your argument is well any district could win the Criminal/Terrorist Powerball Jackpot and it may need all of that stuff. My argument is the likelihood of that occuring is rather small for each district/precinct by itself, and instead the likelihood is that the extra militerization resources have a greater threat of being misused (most likely unintentionally) inside a community.

Instead of spending that money on preparing for that small percentage chance of winning that Criminal/Terrorist Jackpot -- communities focus those resources in other areas. Law Enforcement Outreach projects. Infrastructure improvement. City restoration projects. Better school systems.

Or heck -- if we don't want to spend on any of that stuff -- we just lower property taxes (assuming the community is in great shape in those above areas, and it's operating in the black with a nice reserve fund).

None of this even touches the societal costs of living in a "What If" society. It leads to blatant distrust of community members, of your neighbors, of society in general.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[BoilerMadness]

Unfortunately

Originally posted by BleedinGold:

Originally posted by QuadBoiler:

Originally posted by BleedinGold:

Originally posted by timster:
Police should have the better equipment than the other guys
When Police officers used to respond to calls w 9mm pistols facing off v Semi Automatic rifles w armor piercing capabilities it has forced departments across the US to step up.....Meth, Crack, Illegal Aliens, gangs, terrorism has become a small town USA problem and departments have to be prepared

I disagree. I don't feel limited/isolated incidents need to always require a drastic change in policies.

Most small towns don't have criminals shooting at them with "semi-automatic rifles w armor piercing capabilities". And I think it's an extremely small percentage (probably less than 1%) where weapons of that caliber are being used.

But I get it, they dont' want to EVER be in a situation where they are out-gunned. Unfortnately though that sometimes puts the police on the other side of the coin -- where they can come in and escalate or over respond to a situation.

It leads to distrust on both sides.

There will be a much bigger incident than St Louis within the next 5-10 years.

Curious, can anyone give me a LOGICAL reason for Lawrence's recent purhcase of a 48,000 "mine-resistant ambush protectant vehicle"?

Lawrence isn't alone in the state. According to the below article Johnson County, Morgan County, Jefferson County, West Lafayette Police, Merrillville, Mishawaka, and Terre Haute all have one of these vehicles as well.

Seriously does West Lafayette really need one of these things? Can any one name me an incident in the last 25 years in West Lafayette where that vehicle makes any logical choice of needing to have?

Maybe they could have used it on the students when they "rioted" after the women's national championship.

I know that "tank" is an extreme example. But its actually a perfect example... if the police forces are already mobilizing with such size it's a guarantee they have already out-gunned most small countries -- let alone any criminal threat withing their districts.



Link: We're saving some gas, with this beast!

Did you actually read the article? It laid out a few possibilities for use of that vehicle and I'm sure there are plenty more. The captain also specifically states, "we'd rather have it and never need it than need it and wish we had it." I guess I don't see the big problem, it's not like they bring the thing out to give people traffic tickets. And btw, this "purchase" was just over $6,000 for shipping from Texas. The article says the military donates these things to local law enforcement.

Posted from wireless.rivals.com


This post was edited on 8/11 10:15 AM by QuadBoiler

Yeah I read it. And I disagree.

"Woodruff said the department would use the MRAP in emergencies involving
the SWAT team, like in the case of a mass shooting or a bomb threat."

When was the last mass shooting or successful bomb explosion that occurred in any of those listed districts? Or heck even in the entire state?

"The department has used a large armored car before, including a standoff
at a residence being burglarized. That vehicle was brought in front of
the house and sheltered the SWAT team while officers approached the
suspects. That situation was peacefully resolved."

There were millions of 'stand-offs' that have occurred prior to the use of MRAPs were the situations were peacefully resolved. If the article is trying to say that this one incident was resolved because of the use of the MRAP, I believe that to be an over-reaching statement.

"The armored car could also help the department get around in severe
weather, as it can operate in as deep as 4 feet of water, he said."

When was the last time any community in this state was under 4 feet of water? And if it ever did happen is the MRAP really the optimal vehicle of choice? It's one vehicle. I would offer that a fleet of small fishing boats with trollers would be a better tactical response in a situation where there is 4 ft of water.

My whole point is if the police/city/states/federal government are playing a cat and mouse game against their imagination -- or at best against past isolated incidents.

All I ask is that communities ask themselves is that preparation worth both the financial cost and the societal costs.

My thesis is that in most cases the answer to both of those questions is "No."

You're living in a theoretical world and they're dealing with the REAL world.

Before September 11th, 2001, when was the last time that terrorists hijacked airplanes, destroyed several buildings and killed over 3000 people? The answer is NEVER.

It sounds like you're more interested in being reactive, while the Police Depts in question are trying to be proactive. Gang problems in this country are becoming epidemic in large cities and may soon be coming to a town near you. You can continue to bury your head in the sand, but eventually, it will cause you to get shot in the ass. That's reality.

With the lack of enforcement of immigration laws on the border, we're getting an influx of drug gang members in this country. Their purpose is to expand their territory. I'm sure they would never bother you, since you don't recognize them as a problem.

 

[BoilerMadness]

You need to wake up

Originally posted by BleedinGold:

Originally posted by QuadBoiler:

Originally posted by BleedinGold:

Originally posted by QuadBoiler:

Originally posted by BleedinGold:

Originally posted by timster:
Police should have the better equipment than the other guys
When Police officers used to respond to calls w 9mm pistols facing off v Semi Automatic rifles w armor piercing capabilities it has forced departments across the US to step up.....Meth, Crack, Illegal Aliens, gangs, terrorism has become a small town USA problem and departments have to be prepared

I disagree. I don't feel limited/isolated incidents need to always require a drastic change in policies.

Most small towns don't have criminals shooting at them with "semi-automatic rifles w armor piercing capabilities". And I think it's an extremely small percentage (probably less than 1%) where weapons of that caliber are being used.

But I get it, they dont' want to EVER be in a situation where they are out-gunned. Unfortnately though that sometimes puts the police on the other side of the coin -- where they can come in and escalate or over respond to a situation.

It leads to distrust on both sides.

There will be a much bigger incident than St Louis within the next 5-10 years.

Curious, can anyone give me a LOGICAL reason for Lawrence's recent purhcase of a 48,000 "mine-resistant ambush protectant vehicle"?

Lawrence isn't alone in the state. According to the below article Johnson County, Morgan County, Jefferson County, West Lafayette Police, Merrillville, Mishawaka, and Terre Haute all have one of these vehicles as well.

Seriously does West Lafayette really need one of these things? Can any one name me an incident in the last 25 years in West Lafayette where that vehicle makes any logical choice of needing to have?

Maybe they could have used it on the students when they "rioted" after the women's national championship.

I know that "tank" is an extreme example. But its actually a perfect example... if the police forces are already mobilizing with such size it's a guarantee they have already out-gunned most small countries -- let alone any criminal threat withing their districts.



Link: We're saving some gas, with this beast!

Did you actually read the article? It laid out a few possibilities for use of that vehicle and I'm sure there are plenty more. The captain also specifically states, "we'd rather have it and never need it than need it and wish we had it." I guess I don't see the big problem, it's not like they bring the thing out to give people traffic tickets. And btw, this "purchase" was just over $6,000 for shipping from Texas. The article says the military donates these things to local law enforcement.

Posted from wireless.rivals.com


This post was edited on 8/11 10:15 AM by QuadBoiler

Yeah I read it. And I disagree.

"Woodruff said the department would use the MRAP in emergencies involving
the SWAT team, like in the case of a mass shooting or a bomb threat."

When was the last mass shooting or successful bomb explosion that occurred in any of those listed districts? Or heck even in the entire state?

"The department has used a large armored car before, including a standoff
at a residence being burglarized. That vehicle was brought in front of
the house and sheltered the SWAT team while officers approached the
suspects. That situation was peacefully resolved."

There were millions of 'stand-offs' that have occurred prior to the use of MRAPs were the situations were peacefully resolved. If the article is trying to say that this one incident was resolved because of the use of the MRAP, I believe that to be an over-reaching statement.

"The armored car could also help the department get around in severe
weather, as it can operate in as deep as 4 feet of water, he said."

When was the last time any community in this state was under 4 feet of water? And if it ever did happen is the MRAP really the optimal vehicle of choice? It's one vehicle. I would offer that a fleet of small fishing boats with trollers would be a better tactical response in a situation where there is 4 ft of water.

My whole point is if the police/city/states/federal government are playing a cat and mouse game against their imagination -- or at best against past isolated incidents.

All I ask is that communities ask themselves is that preparation worth both the financial cost and the societal costs.

My thesis is that in most cases the answer to both of those questions is "No."

And once again, I go back to, it's better to need and not have than to have and not need. "When was the last time..." is a meaningless statement here IMO. When was the last time before 1997 that police officers needed assault rifles to deal with a situation? No one knows when or where a situation that might require something like this will occur. If this vehicle stays in the garage for 20 years and never gets used, great. But at least if something comes up where it would be useful, they have it available to them.

Posted from wireless.rivals.com

That's my whole point. We're playing a cat and mouse game with "What If's".

We wonder why this country is going broke? Why educational systems have to cut teachers? Why police forces have to cut personnel? Why fire departments are understaffed? Why infrastructure/bridges are falling apart?

Well it could be because we're so worried about what MAY happen that we don't see what IS happening.

We're playing a game where let's acquire as much arsenal "in case something happens". Instead of prioritizing the likelihood of that actually happening.

It's like planning to spend the Powerball winnings, knowing full well you will probably never win anyways. "Let's arm up, just in case X,Y,Z happens."

Your argument is well any district could win the Criminal/Terrorist Powerball Jackpot and it may need all of that stuff. My argument is the likelihood of that occuring is rather small for each district/precinct by itself, and instead the likelihood is that the extra militerization resources have a greater threat of being misused (most likely unintentionally) inside a community.

Instead of spending that money on preparing for that small percentage chance of winning that Criminal/Terrorist Jackpot -- communities focus those resources in other areas. Law Enforcement Outreach projects. Infrastructure improvement. City restoration projects. Better school systems.

Or heck -- if we don't want to spend on any of that stuff -- we just lower property taxes (assuming the community is in great shape in those above areas, and it's operating in the black with a nice reserve fund).

None of this even touches the societal costs of living in a "What If" society. It leads to blatant distrust of community members, of your neighbors, of society in general.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Apparently, in your world, drug cartels have not established gangs in most major cities to move their products. As the large cities get saturated, they will expand to smaller cities and towns. Illegal drugs are a multi-Billion dollar industry and the drug gangs are very well armed.

If you haven't noticed, terrorism is alive and well on a worldwide basis. You're delusional, if you think we won't be attacked again. Who knows what's flowing through our Southern border right now, since there is no effort being made to enforce our immigration laws.

It's a different world now, than it was even 20 years ago. These aren't WHAT IFs. These have become WHENs. You need to wake up to the reality of the world today, not some idealized "Leave it to Beaver" scenario you are imagining still exists.