NDs new basketball facility
- Thread starter New Pal Boiler
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Good for ND. Mr. Ivey evidently wasn't overly impressed.
Honest question. How does Purdue compare? I know football is pretty good but bball? Also did I miss the cost on ND'S?
Price comparisons aren't really the way of looking at it - Purdue's "$100M" renovation of Mackey included the costs of things at baseball/women's soccer, relocating the Grand Prix track, new football practice fields, etc.....stuff that has nothing to do with basketball.
My thing with the Mackey renovation is that it was playing catch up - not looking ahead. Now that Northwestern's is complete, and Rutgers is completing there.....apples to apples, our practice facility is the worst in the Big 10 in terms of features - perhaps tied with Penn State.
From Notre Dame's release:
The 77,000-square-foot Rolfs Athletics Hall features video rooms, team rooms and locker rooms for both the men’s and women’s programs, as well as views into both practice gyms on the entry level. Also on the entry level are locker areas for the coaching and support staffs, and auxiliary locker spaces available for basketball alumni, practice players and other guests.
The lower level features nutrition space, a sports medicine facility with two in-ground (hot and cold) hydrotherapy tubs, a large strength and conditioning center and two separate practice gyms, each with a full-sized replica of the court in Purcell Pavilion, and several side baskets for drills.
The upper level includes a shared reception area, office suites for each program, each with a kitchen and storage space, and two conference rooms suspended above the respective gym spaces. A spectator viewing area, fully renovated with trophy displays and ample space for various entertainment functions, are also on the upper level.
Just comparing Notre Dame's: The big difference between Purdue's and Notre Dame's (as well as virtually every other Big Ten program) is that Notre Dame's is solely for basketball. Purdue shares many of the same facilities with all other sports except football.
For example, strength and condition, nutrition, and sports medicine are all spaces that all the other teams use along with basketball (so 400 athletes).
The other difference is Purdue's practice court is only 1 full size court. So men's and women's can't use it at the same time (yes, Mackey is available but other schools can use their courts as well - but off hours Mackey's is not somewhere player friendly to go).
I think overall, Mackey is ok but it's mixed in with a lot of other things and is not a basketball-centric hub for the program. Things like having a locker room for pro players who come back - that's a nice sounding feature (although not sure how practical), but Purdue's practice/player facilities are no more than adequate.
I say this not meaning that this ONE thing is a problem and is why we struggle with this or that. I say it in the sense that when a recruit comes to visit, there's a host of things they see and pay attention to. The athlete and the parents both care about a lot of different things and I think Purdue lags in several of them. Obviously Purdue has a great game atmosphere, but when you come from Notre Dame and seeing all of these basketball-specific features designed around building them as individual players....then you come to Purdue and it's oh, 399 other athletes also use this same sports medicine room....and well, there's a practice facility Johnny can come use any time, except for when the women are practicing.....those little differences start to add up.
Obviously we still get good recruits....and I think it speaks volumes about the coaching staff. But it's why I harp on we have a great coach, give him the tools he needs to be successful where he's not trying to make up for a deficit here or there - because if we're equal with these programs on what WE can control (facilities, staffing, etc.), then imagine how competitive we can be.
We have a lot of great things going for the program that Painter and the program has done themselves, I'd like to see us capture some of this momentum and start to move the needle on our current shortcomings. No offense, but Bobinski has not done 1 significant thing for basketball since he's arrived. I get it, football has work that's needed - but we're moving heaven and earth for football right now, and letting basketball coast on human resource (i.e. having a good coach).
As long as we "maintain", we certainly won't get ahead.
I don’t disagree with much of what you say but I don’t see two full courts in their facility either. I see a full court and a shooting court. There’s no way both men’s and women’s would practice at the same time. I know “practice court” is a trigger word for you
but I don’t think what they have in that area is much better than us. And I think the layout of Mackey, Ross Ade, and Northwestern Ave. made what we do limited in that space. Like I’ve said before, this will come down to what Painter thinks he needs and I’m positive he won’t be shy with MBob if he thinks it’s an issue. And MBob will deliver if necessary.
I don’t disagree with much of what you say but I don’t see two full courts in their facility either. I see a full court and a shooting court. There’s no way both men’s and women’s would practice at the same time. I know “practice court” is a trigger word for you
If he doesn't, shame on him.
With this BoT and President, if he has a need, he d@mn sure better be getting it in front of them. There's been no better time to be a Boilermaker.
This pretty clearly states that the men’s and women’s basketball teams each have their own courts:I don’t disagree with much of what you say but I don’t see two full courts in their facility either. I see a full court and a shooting court. There’s no way both men’s and women’s would practice at the same time. I know “practice court” is a trigger word for you
“It’s a beautiful facility,” said Muffet McGraw, the Hall of Fame women’s basketball coach. “It’s exactly what we need. Everything really is first class.”
Despite winning a pair of national championships in the past two decades, McGraw’s program often had to take a number while summer campers or Brey’s players monopolized the cramped practice courts at the Pit. There would be a delicate dance once the season started in which each program respectfully tried to divvy up court time at Purcell Pavilion or in the downstairs dungeon.
Now, with each program using its own NBA-style practice gym, injured players can get up as many shots as they like on a side court while McGraw or Brey run full practices on their separate main courts.
I don’t disagree with much of what you say but I don’t see two full courts in their facility either. I see a full court and a shooting court. There’s no way both men’s and women’s would practice at the same time. I know “practice court” is a trigger word for you
Again, I think the facility patched the issue. It kind of brought us up to speed, but CERTAINLY was not visionary.
There's a lot of rather blind faith in Bobinski. Sure, he's done some good things for football that has helped them as bad as it can get. But our premiere sport has not really had anything to do with him.
Bobinski actually left Georgia Tech not very well liked because he was.....wait for it....cheap. And he had dysfunctional relationships with coaches.
Certainly people can learn and improve, but this notion that Painter can ask him for whatever he wants and Bobinski will deliver it....what's that based on? What significant thing has Bobinski delivered for basketball? He agreed to do a 2 year contract for assistant coaches? Meanwhile, football is getting a new practice facility, we have a top 3 paid football coach in the Big Ten, there's now a planned renovation of Ross-Ade stadium, and talk of a south end zone addition which would just be more square footage for football.
What's the plan for basketball is my question? I haven't heard anything. Maybe I'm missing it? But all I know is it's all about timing. And the iron couldn't be hotter than it is right now for our basketball program....why aren't we striking?
MBob was given 3 mandates when he came in:
1. Fix Football
2. Fix Football
3. Fix Football
Mitch is a P&L guy, and there is more ROI potential with Football right now.
I would love to see basketball investment just as much as you, believe me. But how many incremental dollars would that bring in, given that Mackey is sold out almost every game already?
If Painter is happy, I’m happy. Of course I have no idea if he is. We seem to be recruiting year over year at our highest level in decades. We must be doing something right. My faith in MBob is that he’s very much in lock step with Mitch and they seem to be fully behind Painter. Shrewsberry’s comments when he came back spoke volumes. I think our AD can only handle so many big ticket projects at once. I would suspect BB gets addressed in the next couple of years. We will have to wait and see if it’s “visionary” or not. I also think alumni could push for something if we had one or two ready to fund something.
But again, is that anything to do with Bobinski? We've had good recruiting classes before he came.
When has an AD and President not been lock step? That's their boss....do you operate out of lockstep with your boss? Mitch Daniels and Morgan Burke were also lockstep....
And again, I didn't say construction needed to start on a project for basketball tomorrow. I have not seen a VISION. A vision looks to the future....where is that?
What happened to nd? They went to back to back E8s (granted the second one seemed a bit lucky) but were top 5 in ACC 3 years in a row. Then they lost in NCAAs first weekend, next it was NIT, then last year was a collapse due to injury (just to one player?) Win no post season. I thought Brey would build momentum with the E8s but now they are just hoping to make the NCAAs. I dont really follow them (which is odd because I grew up in SB and follow ACC generally, living in the South). I have been under the impression that Brey wins in spurts, e.g. top third of a conference for a few years then bottom of conference for a few years.
You know who operates this way? Schools with crappy basketball programs, i.e. Georgia Tech.
Here's the thing about basketball: It doesn't require as much investment as football! Yes, of course the revenue and incremental dollars are not the same. But basketball is our bread and butter, let's face it, and our strongest high profile program.....by far.
We've talked about all sorts of areas that Purdue can improve and be more competitive with their peers. This thread obviously got started on a facility front, but Purdue's basketball staff is also the smallest in the Big Ten!
The football staff has:
-3 "quality control" positions who do game prep (basketball 0)
-3 FTEs dedicated to recruiting (basketball 0)
-1 Director of Player Development (basketball 0)
-5 strength and conditioning coaches that report to football (basketball kinda 1..they don't report to basketball)
So if you added 2 mid-level staffers for basketball for let's say recruiting and a quality control type position - that's maybe $200k with salary and benefits a year. Is that really that much to ask?
Also, how would you feel if you were basketball? You have been pulling the weight for football for several years, you're doing everything you're being asked for, you're selling out your arena and driving in as much revenue as the program can....and here this new guy comes in and gets new facilities, added staff members, now is one of the top paid coaches in the Big Ten....
Meanwhile, over the past 5 years, basketball had to crowdfund to get an adequate video board for a modern arena, still has a subpar sound system in 2019, let Painter choose 1 position that he can add making him choose between this or that, has kept a very average salary pool for assistants, and as of this past year had the 7th highest paid coach in the Big Ten.
Would you feel appreciated?
Re your remarks I put in bold, I don't think that's true at all.
People have watched what's been going on with the FB program, and most are rather pleased with the trajectory of the program and the willingness to pay Brohm, since he appears to be turning around the program.
I will say, what you wrote about the GaTech fans seems to highlight my ongoing remarks about the role of the collegiate A.D., and some of the rather ignorant (i.e., grossly uniformed) posts about Burke.
It ain't the A.D.'s checkbook! It's university leadership's (BoT & President).
During his time at Purdue, there's no way in HELL Bobinski could be considered "cheap". Anyone suggesting such a thing needs to have a psychological evaluation.
Shrewsberry seems think our current AD/Pres arrangement is dramatically different than when he was here before. I can’t imagine you don’t agree.
Burke takes a lot of heat on this board for decsions that were most likely made above his pay grade.
Now, I also hope Bobinski finds a more open check book at Purdue, and knows what to do with it when it comes to the basketball program.
I don't agree with this.
Burke was an AD under 4 VERY different Presidents, including today's for several years. The athletic department operated the same throughout all four of them.
The AD drives what athletics does. Don't think for a second that a President, including Daniels, is spending significant time on the athletic department. Purdue is a huge institution.
A few things:
1. In an "athletic director" world, the amount of time Bobinski has been here is very short. Coming in and spending a bunch of money to get new facilities, big contracts, etc. is the easy part. My 10 year old niece understood how bad Purdue's football program was. Obviously there's always risks with athletic departments and coaches. But we're in a "honeymoon" phase still with Bobinski. I'm certainly not saying he's bad or overrated. I think there's a lot of "oh it's all going to be fine" when in all reality....we just don't know.
2. I never said he's cheap now. I said that's what his reputation was at Georgia Tech. Which leads me to...
3. I said he very well could have learned from his time at Georgia Tech. People certainly learn from their experience, right? That's the whole point of work experience. Certainly he isn't being "cheap" with football....but what you don't want to see is the pendulum swung too far the other way too. While I think Burke was way too tight, I'm also wary of overspending our means. It's like when you buy a house - sure, I can pay a mortgage on this dream house given I keep getting raises and promotions at my job, but should something not go as planned....I'm screwed. I have been in DC for over a decade....Maryland spent itself into a mess. The Big Ten money certainly helps alleviate that worry, BUT this is why I bring up doing all in one program while letting your bread and butter just maintain itself (while several other programs even in just the Big Ten are doing more).
4. The University's leadership and BOT is not it. They were the same leadership and BOT when Burke was here.....Burke was an AD under 4 different presidents. Four very different presidents. The athletic department operated the exact same way through all of them under Burke, including the current one.
So yes, I give that credit to Bobinski. Those are your bosses - I don't even get the sense that Burke was trying to present a case to his bosses. It's not like he was constantly told "no, you can't do that". But I also think the landscape has dramatically changed. The Big Ten money has exploded well beyond expectations over the last several years. Purdue's budget has increased $20+ million over the last few years. That's certainly not revenue Purdue's generating from football ticket sales, right? It's a lot easier to get the approval to do things when the money is sitting in your bank account waiting to be spent vs. needing to go fundraise, take out loans, etc.
Well you’d have to ask Painter. I suspect it’s “Win the B1G, compete for the FF, and graduate outstanding student-athlete leaders”. Then Bobinski needs to make sure Painter has what he needs to fulfill his vision.
When MBob sits down with Mitch for his annual review I think his key objectives are increasing controllable revenue (tickets, licensing, JPC, large boosters) while managing expense, competitiveness of our programs, GPA of our students, and NCAA compliance. That’s his job. And he needs to make sure he has the right coaches and the right support to achieve those goals.
You can always email him. He typically responds, particularly since you’re part of the JPC. I suspect his “vision” would align with Painter. But the head coach is absolutely responsible for the vision and mission of the program and the AD is responsible for providing the support to achieve it.
Burke was AD during four different administrations. So how did we do athletically during each? I recall Joe Tiller and Gene Keady doing pretty well. I recall a national championship for WBB also.
I also recall finishing last in all three sports. Same AD but different administrations. Makes you think about the source of both the success and lack of same.
appreciate the follow up, but I had no misunderstanding of where you stood on any of those points.
I certainly understood the point about Bobinski's reputation at GT, and it doesn't change my point in the least.
During his tenure here, yes, Burke was told "no" on a variety of occasions. He also had money siphoned from athletic revenues. We also absolutely have had a seismic shift in leadership, and the approach to supporting athletics.
NCAA championships in women's basketball and golf, and men's diving. B1G champs in baseball and women's soccer, track, and tennis. The level of several sports were raised. Interesting that most of them were the sports that are not hurt as much by cutting the budget. But it's also hard to sustain if you don't pay the winning coaches.
agree. that was the one constant over the years with concerns about $.
as evidenced by keady expressing concern about the commitment to $ and facilites back then. tiller expressed frustrations also.
issues worsened when we put a premium goal on the directors cup, which devalued the revenue sports even more.
even recall d.hope coming up with a way to save some $, wanting to invest it elsewhere in the program (toward asst pay or something), but those savings were supposedly pocketed by the dept and directed to other sports.
it is a little eerie at the similarities to ~20 years ago.....
1) football desperately searching for the right coach to turn things around, and finds him.
2) meanwhile basketball is coming off a run of some of its strongest years.
3) the next round of $ investments go toward the primary sport-football, while bball didn't happen for years later.
then - bball suffered a decline in his final years.
now - the situation seems different enough being under bobinski, with btn tv $, and painter being younger/in his prime.
if I were painter, I would still be optimistic, seeing the current AD commitment & foresight compared to the earlier years he saw for himself and those for keady.
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So now the athletic director doesn't have visioins for programs? So nothing that's happened for football is credit to Bobinski?
Come on. I'm simply saying that I think it is a mistake to "coast" on your bread and butter, especially at this moment in time when there's actually not a lot of stability in the Big Ten. You have some new coaches at big programs that we need to "squash" and not let them pass us by....and you have a guy like Izzo who's dominated the Big Ten and will not be around for a significant time. Purdue's IN a position to become the next Michigan State/Izzo, but we have to take steps to get there.
It doesn't mean you have to abandon football, it's that there should be vision laid out for basketball too. I can tell you numerous things the athletic director wants to do for football. I can't tell you a single thing for basketball...and neither can you. I think it's a mistake.
I don't think Painter is "pissed" and I don't think he's incredibly needy. But just like with Keady, there's going to be a plateau. If we as fans are ok with that (which based on the whining on this board is not the case), then that's great. I think Purdue Basketball can be better -- but I have never once thought Painter was the culprit as many have on here. I think it's simply we (Purdue) don't treat our program at the same level as we have expectations or aspirations.
you seem to be making this too combative.
I get what you're saying, and yes, MBob has a vision for Purdue athletics. It's also his job to have conversations with the HC (Painter) to get input on Paint's vision.
You're not wrong, neither is BoilerBulldog.
The revenue coming from the Big 10 today is our entire athletic department's revenue 10-12 years ago. Like I said, it's a lot easier to make decisions when there's enough cash in your checking account....vs. when you have to take out a loan, or go around asking people to pay for you.
Burke never broke a sweat fighting for things, or busted his butt trying to find solutions. Look at the rental car restrictions...that was his own choice.
Interesting comments.
Every coach has a "plateau".
I doubt us as fans being "ok" with anything really means anything. It never has before.
I agree, Purdue basketball can be better. I also think Mitch and Bobinski and Painter believe that, as well.
At what "level" should we (Purdue) be treating the basketball program?
I've been on this board long enough to have gone through so much whining, complaining, defeatist attitudes, etc. about our programs.
This is not some new thought from me. I've been on this for years....well before Bobinski.
But you certainly can't argue that any significant steps have been taken for basketball. To have the reasoning of "he needs to have conversations with Painter"....he's been AD for 3 years.
Timing is everything when it comes to building programs. It certainly doesn't happen overnight. I don't think there's been as much momentum/positivity surrounding Purdue basketball than right now since 2000. You gotta be prepared to capitalize, and I think right now is a big opportunity.
Not only looking at just Purdue, but at the Big Ten landscape. You have a lot of new, talented coaches at programs that we've historically struggled to compete with particularly with resources. Then you have Izzo nearing the end of his career. I do not want to see Purdue get leapfrogged because we sat flat footed while these programs with new leadership gain momentum.
I don't think my concerns, or aspiratons, or invalid. I am not saying Bobinski is a bad athletic director, I'd just like to see a little bit more on the basketball front. Is that not fair?
Ok, well I provided a specific example of him pushing back on his coaches with rental car restrictions.
Apologies in advance. I have no idea what all that means, in the context of this thread.
I've heard that rumor. Maybe I haven't been paying attention, but where was this substantiated, and (if true) why was he doing it?
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