Missing Mason

[qazplm]

Could be, but as I see it, you need 3 players in the rotation at the 4 and 5 combined. I think that the three are likely TKR, Heide, and DJ (unless Burgess beats out DJ). Regardless of whether he starts, I believe Heide plays over 20 minutes per game at the 4, even with DJ back.

First, you need more than 3 in that rotation.
Second, Heide is barely playing over 20 minutes now without DJ. I'm not sure I see him playing more with DJ. TKR is playing almost exclusively at the 5 which means 4 is almost a full 40 minutes availability right now.

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

Lol I didn't say that at all. You clearly have a super low opinion of Gillis and a super high opinion of Heide and think somehow they are one for one swaps. Gillis is better, Heide is not yet a star and they aren't in main competition with each other.

No, I love Gillis. And still don’t understand why you think he’s better?

But I recognize Gillis’s defense and rebounding were covered up a lot by that 7’4 guy behind him. Gillis wasn’t a good defender like you think he was. And are you saying Gillis was a star? So that would make Heide a star right? Since Heide is averaging the same if not more than Gillis when comparing the first 10 games of their soph seasons….and Gillis played with Ivey and 2 very good bigs that year. Cam is more athletic and quicker, not sure why you can’t understand that/see that. Skys the limit for him and hopefully he keeps getting better. Mason, unfortunately, had a knee injury that limited his quickness and athleticism.

And not sure why you don’t think they wouldn’t compete at the 4? Gillis could only play the 4 (again not quick enough to guard 3s). Cam wouldn’t just magically slide to the 3, but if he did in your scenario then that would impact mins for Myles, Loyer, and Harris.

Sorry just being realistic. Again, Mason was a great boiler and one of my faves, it’s ok to admit another player is better/would play more this year.

 

[BoilerDaddy]

First, you need more than 3 in that rotation.
Second, Heide is barely playing over 20 minutes now without DJ. I'm not sure I see him playing more with DJ. TKR is playing almost exclusively at the 5 which means 4 is almost a full 40 minutes availability right now.

Over the past five games since becoming a starter, Heide is averaging over 27 minutes per game.

Last year’s rotation at the 4 and 5 consisted of 3 players: Edey, TKR, and Gillis. If you have someone like TKR who can play both positions, a 3 player rotation at the 4 and 5 is ideal, with other players, like Furst last year, providing depth in case of injuries or foul trouble.

 

[qazplm]

Over the past five games since becoming a starter, Heide is averaging over 27 minutes per game.

Last year’s rotation at the 4 and 5 consisted of 3 players: Edey, TKR, and Gillis. If you have someone like TKR who can play both positions, a 3 player rotation at the 4 and 5 is ideal, with other players, like Furst last year, providing depth in case of injuries or foul trouble.

I mean if you have no injuries and no foul trouble. Then it becomes far less than ideal.

27 minutes without DJ. When there's basically 40 minutes at the 4 available. DJ is going to play 20 minutes himself, which means half the 4 minutes available. How does that not translate to fewer minutes for Heide?

 

[BoilerDaddy]

I mean if you have no injuries and no foul trouble. Then it becomes far less than ideal.

27 minutes without DJ. When there's basically 40 minutes at the 4 available. DJ is going to play 20 minutes himself, which means half the 4 minutes available. How does that not translate to fewer minutes for Heide?

I would guess about 32 minutes for TKR, 25 minutes for Heide, and 23 minutes for DJ/Burgess next season.

 

[qazplm]

No, I love Gillis. And still don’t understand why you think he’s better?

But I recognize Gillis’s defense and rebounding were covered up a lot by that 7’4 guy behind him. Gillis wasn’t a good defender like you think he was. And are you saying Gillis was a star? So that would make Heide a star right? Since Heide is averaging the same if not more than Gillis when comparing the first 10 games of their soph seasons….and Gillis played with Ivey and 2 very good bigs that year. Cam is more athletic and quicker, not sure why you can’t understand that/see that. Skys the limit for him and hopefully he keeps getting better. Mason, unfortunately, had a knee injury that limited his quickness and athleticism.

And not sure why you don’t think they wouldn’t compete at the 4? Gillis could only play the 4 (again not quick enough to guard 3s). Cam wouldn’t just magically slide to the 3, but if he did in your scenario then that would impact mins for Myles, Loyer, and Harris.

Sorry just being realistic. Again, Mason was a great boiler and one of my faves, it’s ok to admit another player is better/would play more this year.

For the love of all that's holy I have not once said he was better than Heide. Your the one locked into the Heide v Gillis, that it's one or the other, not me. As you pointed out, sophomore Heide is about where sophomore Gillis was. Heide has a higher scoring ceiling but Gillis was more consistent 7-9 pts most games as a soph to this point.

Gillis contributed plenty before Edey was a starter. Gillis started 20+ games as a frosh and soph, without Edey being the dominant starting player. He shot 35 and 43 from three those first two seasons, again without Edey yet being the dominant player he was his last two seasons. His best rebounding season was his sophomore season. Again before Edey became dominant. So no, he wasn't covered up by Edey. That doesn't equate to him being a "star" also something I've never said. I said one thing, that Gillis would help this team be better.

Gillis is not exclusively at the 4. He didn't play exclusively at the 4 last season. But even if he was, there's 40 minutes at the 4 available this season and even when starting Heide is only taking 27 of those minutes even if you assume every last minute he plays is at the 4, which I'm pretty sure isn't true.

That's 13 minutes available right now. Those could easily all go to Gillis. And against some teams he might play a minute or two more, or a few minutes less, or yes Heide might play a minute or two at the three which isn't some crazy idea. Nor is it a crazy idea that Gillis plays a couple minutes at the three. Yes you can have a lineup of TKR Gillis Heide Loyer or Colvin and Smith and do good things. That lineup is filled with four players who can shoot well from the three. And again, without Mount Edey his first two seasons, Gillis shot very well from 3. Is that your starting lineup? No, probably not. Is it some crazy lineup, no of course not. We've run out worse lineups this season, which is the point.

None of that is somehow going to hold Heide back. Or anyone else other than Furst and Berg. No one said Gillis plays more than Heide or Colvin. Both have potential but currently neither of them are star players and we are talking about this season and Painter plays for the current season, he doesn't give extra minutes just because someone might be a star in later seasons. Regardless, this idea that the two somehow are in minutes conflict when we have enough for both right now is not accurate.

Next season, Jacobsen is back, and he's getting 20+ minutes, and TKR is getting 30+ just like this season. Burgess is probably playing more minutes but even if it's only 10 a game, that leaves Heide at 20 minutes at the 4. Heide isn't likely playing more minutes then he is now, in fact, he's likely playing closer to the low 20s.
So if you want more minutes for Heide next season either he's playing some of those minutes at the three or you are taking minutes from TKR or DJ or you are sitting Burgess and I don't think any of those things are happening.

This team is filled with young talent at 1-3. It's short of talent at the 4-5 this season. Nest season we get back DJ and get a Burgess that can contribute more. You don't need a Gillis next season, but you can absolutely use him this season

 

[qazplm]

I would guess about 32 minutes for TKR, 25 minutes for Heide, and 23 minutes for DJ/Burgess next season.

I mean I think the last combo gets more than that but we are quibbling over you thinking Heide gets 25 minutes and 23 for them and me thinking it's probably closer to the reverse. Not much difference there.

The problem comes if we have an injury to one of them. If anyone of them other than Burgess gets injured we are in a bind. Having one more quality player there would be a lot more ideal.

 

[Purdue79fan]

GP

GS

MPG

PPG

FGM

FGA

FG%

3FGM

3FGA

3FG%

FTM

FTA

FT%

Camden Heide F

10​

5​

22.1​

6.9​

19​

35​

54.30%​

12​

25​

48.00%​

19​

22​

86.40%​

Mason Gillis F

10​

0​

14.8​

3.3​

12​

35​

34.30%​

7​

26​

26.90%​

2​

2​

100%​

 

[BoilerDaddy]

I mean I think the last combo gets more than that but we are quibbling over you thinking Heide gets 25 minutes and 23 for them and me thinking it's probably closer to the reverse. Not much difference there.

The problem comes if we have an injury to one of them. If anyone of them other than Burgess gets injured we are in a bind. Having one more quality player there would be a lot more ideal.

Injuries are often challenging and don’t really have much to do with my original point.

Point is that the experience that Heide is gaining this year will be highly valuable next year when I think that Purdue likely be positioned very well for a tremendous season.

 

[qazplm]

Injuries are often challenging and don’t really have much to do with my original point.

Point is that the experience that Heide is gaining this year will be highly valuable next year when I think that Purdue likely be positioned very well for a tremendous season.

My point wasn't to dispute that Heide will be valuable, it was to say that 3 players at the 4/5 is not ideal IMO even if they are all great players. Depth is important, particularly if you want a tremendous season.

 

[BoilerDaddy]

My point wasn't to dispute that Heide will be valuable, it was to say that 3 players at the 4/5 is not ideal IMO even if they are all great players. Depth is important, particularly if you want a tremendous season.

I don’t dispute the value of depth, but there will almost always be players who are not in the rotation who provide valuable depth. Next year I anticipate Burgess, Berg, and Waddell providing depth at the 4 and 5 positions.

 

[qazplm]

I don’t dispute the value of depth, but there will almost always be players who are not in the rotation who provide valuable depth. Next year I anticipate Burgess, Berg, and Waddell providing depth at the 4 and 5 positions.

Waddell? Has he even played this season? Berg's minutes are dropping to near 0.

I don't see either of those guys providing more than mop up minutes next season. I certainly don't want either of them coming in for crucial minutes when someone is in foul trouble and I definitely don't want them playing major minutes because of an injury.

 

[Purdue79fan]

Waddell? Has he even played this season? Berg's minutes are dropping to near 0.

I don't see either of those guys providing more than mop up minutes next season. I certainly don't want either of them coming in for crucial minutes when someone is in foul trouble and I definitely don't want them playing major minutes because of an injury.

Waddell has actually looked good during his minutes. Good ball handler and passer.

Brian Waddell F

2 GP

0

8 minutes

2.5 pts/gm

1

2

50.0% Overall

1

1

100.0% 3P

2

2

100.0% FT

He is also averaging 1.5 rebounds and 2 assists in his 8 minutes. Scored 5 points, with 1 board, and 3 assists in 7 minutes at Penn State. Brian may prove to be a solid Big Ten player and would probably be in the rotation except for breaking his hand in the Creighton Exhibition.

 

[northside100]

For the love of all that's holy I have not once said he was better than Heide. Your the one locked into the Heide v Gillis, that it's one or the other, not me. As you pointed out, sophomore Heide is about where sophomore Gillis was. Heide has a higher scoring ceiling but Gillis was more consistent 7-9 pts most games as a soph to this point.

Gillis contributed plenty before Edey was a starter. Gillis started 20+ games as a frosh and soph, without Edey being the dominant starting player. He shot 35 and 43 from three those first two seasons, again without Edey yet being the dominant player he was his last two seasons. His best rebounding season was his sophomore season. Again before Edey became dominant. So no, he wasn't covered up by Edey. That doesn't equate to him being a "star" also something I've never said. I said one thing, that Gillis would help this team be better.

Gillis is not exclusively at the 4. He didn't play exclusively at the 4 last season. But even if he was, there's 40 minutes at the 4 available this season and even when starting Heide is only taking 27 of those minutes even if you assume every last minute he plays is at the 4, which I'm pretty sure isn't true.

That's 13 minutes available right now. Those could easily all go to Gillis. And against some teams he might play a minute or two more, or a few minutes less, or yes Heide might play a minute or two at the three which isn't some crazy idea. Nor is it a crazy idea that Gillis plays a couple minutes at the three. Yes you can have a lineup of TKR Gillis Heide Loyer or Colvin and Smith and do good things. That lineup is filled with four players who can shoot well from the three. And again, without Mount Edey his first two seasons, Gillis shot very well from 3. Is that your starting lineup? No, probably not. Is it some crazy lineup, no of course not. We've run out worse lineups this season, which is the point.

None of that is somehow going to hold Heide back. Or anyone else other than Furst and Berg. No one said Gillis plays more than Heide or Colvin. Both have potential but currently neither of them are star players and we are talking about this season and Painter plays for the current season, he doesn't give extra minutes just because someone might be a star in later seasons. Regardless, this idea that the two somehow are in minutes conflict when we have enough for both right now is not accurate.

Next season, Jacobsen is back, and he's getting 20+ minutes, and TKR is getting 30+ just like this season. Burgess is probably playing more minutes but even if it's only 10 a game, that leaves Heide at 20 minutes at the 4. Heide isn't likely playing more minutes then he is now, in fact, he's likely playing closer to the low 20s.
So if you want more minutes for Heide next season either he's playing some of those minutes at the three or you are taking minutes from TKR or DJ or you are sitting Burgess and I don't think any of those things are happening.

This team is filled with young talent at 1-3. It's short of talent at the 4-5 this season. Nest season we get back DJ and get a Burgess that can contribute more. You don't need a Gillis next season, but you can absolutely use him this season

Is that you Wol?

 

[qazplm]

Waddell has actually looked good during his minutes. Good ball handler and passer.

Brian Waddell F

2 GP

0

8 minutes

2.5 pts/gm

1

2

50.0% Overall

1

1

100.0% 3P

2

2

100.0% FT

He is also averaging 1.5 rebounds and 2 assists in his 8 minutes. Scored 5 points, with 1 board, and 3 assists in 7 minutes at Penn State. Brian may prove to be a solid Big Ten player and would probably be in the rotation except for breaking his hand in the Creighton Exhibition.

Has he played a single minute that wasn't mop up minutes? The game was a blowout when he played. I get that we love our players but Painter clearly doesn't see him as an option or he would be playing more at a time when we could use depth at the 4-5.

 

[Schmedly_Whiplash]

Waddell has actually looked good during his minutes. Good ball handler and passer.

Brian Waddell F

2 GP

0

8 minutes

2.5 pts/gm

1

2

50.0% Overall

1

1

100.0% 3P

2

2

100.0% FT

He is also averaging 1.5 rebounds and 2 assists in his 8 minutes. Scored 5 points, with 1 board, and 3 assists in 7 minutes at Penn State. Brian may prove to be a solid Big Ten player and would probably be in the rotation except for breaking his hand in the Creighton Exhibition.

In the rotation at the expense of who? I like the kid a lot. He would have played on a LOT of Boiler teams in my lifetime. But on THIS team I dont' see how he displaces Myles or Cam unless he gets buck strong and becomes a defensive demon.

 

[Purdue79fan]

In the rotation at the expense of who? I like the kid a lot. He would have played on a LOT of Boiler teams in my lifetime. But on THIS team I dont' see how he displaces Myles or Cam unless he gets buck strong and becomes a defensive demon.

"In the rotation" doesn't mean replacing a Starter. Waddell may get more backup minutes as the season rolls on.

 

[BoilerDaddy]

Waddell? Has he even played this season? Berg's minutes are dropping to near 0.

I don't see either of those guys providing more than mop up minutes next season. I certainly don't want either of them coming in for crucial minutes when someone is in foul trouble and I definitely don't want them playing major minutes because of an injury.

Nobody wants injuries, but if the unexpected were to happen I think we’d be glad that he’s on the roster.

 

[qazplm]

Nobody wants injuries, but if the unexpected were to happen I think we’d be glad that he’s on the roster.

I don't think he'd play meaningful minutes even then.

 

[Schmedly_Whiplash]

"In the rotation" doesn't mean replacing a Starter. Waddell may get more backup minutes as the season rolls on.

They are starters on our Small ball lineup. If Matt goes back to bigger at some point one of them will be on the bench. We are ALREADY playing a larger rotation than Matt has specifically stated he prefers. |
Yet you think he's going to add another one to that rotation, limiting the development time of Myles and Cam, young guys with very high ceilings.
Then there's that if/when we need another ball handler on the court, one of them sits. So even less likely that the guy that's been behind them both, and not played at all in any big games, starts getting minutes.
But sure it could happen. I mean it's christmas time eh?

 

[Purdue79fan]

Waddell has proven to be solid with the ball in his limited appearances. We all forget how good these young men were when recruited. Brian was the best player at the largest school in the state of Indiana. That's impressive in it's own right.
He may be able to help against pressing teams.

 

[Schmedly_Whiplash]

Waddell has proven to be solid with the ball in his limited appearances. We all forget how good these young men were when recruited. Brian was the best player at the largest school in the state of Indiana. That's impressive in it's own right.
He may be able to help against pressing teams.

Please don't make this sound like i'm dissing Brian. His dad was maybe my favorite Boiler of all time and I was thrilled to see him coming here. I'm speaking strictly of the reality of the situation as it exists. Myles and Cam are both rising sophs and both need time and experience to become better (we hope). This teams ceiling this year is hinged on those guys becoming bigger factors. By all accounts, Brian isnt' that far behind them, but he is/was behind them to the extent that they were playing while he was not. And now they are starting and he is not getting ANY minutes in competitive games.
What would lead anyone to believe that is going to change NOW other than your own desire to see something change? I don't see Matt giving up on them, so ..................