Managing expectations...

[bonefish1]

bonefish, are you actually managing expectations or are you subconsciously implementing a defeatist attitude as a way to shield yourself from any possible disappointment in the coming season? This is too often (i.e. many examples) the psychology of Purdue sports fans: gravitating towards playing the role of "victims" or defeatists, for some reason or another.

As far as the rotation goes, there are already eight guys that are pretty much (assuming they "stay the course") locks:

Thompson
C. Edwards
Mathias
V. Edwards
Haas
Eastern
Cline
Wheeler

We'll see how the regularity of PT shakes out for Taylor, Ewing, Haarms, and Stefanovic.

Ha ha...you probably haven't read too many of my posting history. I don't make excuses or have a defeatist attitude. In fact, the only excuse I usually offer is that the coach isn't good enough at selling the program, or we take/play some guys who are questionable Big 10 level talent.

 

[bonefish1]

I hope your right about Mr. Cline, he needs all areas of his game to improve, Big Time IMO, lateral quickness should be worked on every day till he can't move anymore, guys go around him like he has a pair of those "Al Capone" Cement shoes on. Big gains should be made between your Soph. and Junior seasons, I am certainly pulling for him, the better he is, the better Purdue is!!

Cline is really just a specialist 3 pt shooter. We've got a bunch of competent 3 pt shooters already who also do more than just launch 3s (DM, VE, CE, PJ,). I think where Cline will be most effective is when we go small with ball handlers trying to penetrate and then kicking out for open 3s.

 

[WabashRiver]

Cline is 6'6" with true point guard handles. His potential is so much more than just a spot up shooter. Even as a freshman I saw a preseason practice video where he got all the way to the rim in a scrimmage.

I re-watched the first few minutes of the Minnesota game from January. I chose that one because Minny seemed more athletic than Iowa and more experienced than MSU. Vince didn't start. Purdue went down 11-2. That stretch exemplified why 2017 Purdue is gaining as much by losing sophomore Biggie as it will lose. On defense, Biggie's man scored 7 of the 11 and another basket Biggie was in position to help but didn't. On offense, he had a turnover and missed a layup. Purdue ended up losing at home in overtime. Junior Biggie would've been a true national POTY candidate. Sophomore Biggie was inconsistent on both ends and had inflated stats from extremely high usage for 33 minutes a game.

 

[bonefish1]

Cline is 6'6" with true point guard handles. His potential is so much more than just a spot up shooter. Even as a freshman I saw a preseason practice video where he got all the way to the rim in a scrimmage.

I re-watched the first few minutes of the Minnesota game from January. I chose that one because Minny seemed more athletic than Iowa and more experienced than MSU. Vince didn't start. Purdue went down 11-2. That stretch exemplified why 2017 Purdue is gaining as much by losing sophomore Biggie as it will lose. On defense, Biggie's man scored 7 of the 11 and another basket Biggie was in position to help but didn't. On offense, he had a turnover and missed a layup. Purdue ended up losing at home in overtime. Junior Biggie would've been a true national POTY candidate. Sophomore Biggie was inconsistent on both ends and had inflated stats from extremely high usage for 33 minutes a game.

You're kidding about Cline and his handles, right? Ok, good. Because for a second there, I thought you said that Cline had true PG handles. Which, clearly, he does not. Now, maybe in a scrimmage or pickup game he can do some driving, but not in a real game.

 

[nagemj02]

You're kidding about Cline and his handles, right? Ok, good. Because for a second there, I thought you said that Cline had true PG handles. Which, clearly, he does not. Now, maybe in a scrimmage or pickup game he can do some driving, but not in a real game.

He can do it once in a game (maybe catches the opposing defense by surprise) but you're right in that he hasn't yet (and might not ever) shown an ability to consistently have success using dribble-penetration.

 

[tjreese]

He can do it once in a game (maybe catches the opposing defense by surprise) but you're right in that he hasn't yet (and might not ever) shown an ability to consistently have success using dribble-penetration.[/QUOTE
.

Cline's best chances to penetrate in a half court setting are due to a poor closeout where he can get a step before the ball hits the court..if he is already dribbling...probably not going to get by a decently positioned defender. His ability to penetrate is related to the respect given him on his perimeter shooting

 

[bonefish1]

He can do it once in a game (maybe catches the opposing defense by surprise) but you're right in that he hasn't yet (and might not ever) shown an ability to consistently have success using dribble-penetration.

Maybe once a game, if lucky. But I'd rather leaving the driving to CE, VE, Eastern, etc and have guys like Cline, PJ and DM be ready for the kick out and open 3.

 

[WabashRiver]

I continued re-watching most of the 2nd half of overtime home loss to Minnesota in January. Cline and Carsen were on the court together for long stretches. Cline had a great drive but had his layup went in and out, at least proving he does have that element to his game. Carsen drove and had his shot blocked, so both have work to do there. On defense, Cline used his 6'6" size to help over and prevent a driver from scoring and then got the defensive rebound. I might be the only one, but I'm really excited about Cline in 2017.

Speaking of rebounding, Purdue played a lineup of Haas at the 5 and Vince at the 4. Vince got 2 offensive rebounds in that spot. Fear of a rebounding dropoff without Biggie is greatly exaggerated. Vince drove 3 times: scored an acrobatic layup, hit a difficult jump stop turnaround, and drew a foul. Vince has to drive a LOT this year. P.J. was on fire from 3. He also got destroyed on defense by Nate Mason. I'd be worried if I didn't see that tweet of P.J. doing box jumps this offseason.

 

[bonefish1]

I continued re-watching most of the 2nd half of overtime home loss to Minnesota in January. Cline and Carsen were on the court together for long stretches. Cline had a great drive but had his layup went in and out, at least proving he does have that element to his game. Carsen drove and had his shot blocked, so both have work to do there. On defense, Cline used his 6'6" size to help over and prevent a driver from scoring and then got the defensive rebound. I might be the only one, but I'm really excited about Cline in 2017.

Speaking of rebounding, Purdue played a lineup of Haas at the 5 and Vince at the 4. Vince got 2 offensive rebounds in that spot. Fear of a rebounding dropoff without Biggie is greatly exaggerated. Vince drove 3 times: scored an acrobatic layup, hit a difficult jump stop turnaround, and drew a foul. Vince has to drive a LOT this year. P.J. was on fire from 3. He also got destroyed on defense by Nate Mason. I'd be worried if I didn't see that tweet of P.J. doing box jumps this offseason.

Sorry, but you're not going to convince me that Cline has a penetrate dish/finish dimension to his game. Just like PG doesn't. CE, on the other hand, that's a huge part of his game and he's effective at it. CE is our best creator/finisher since Willie Deane.
Not saying that Cline won't periodically have opportunity to drive, but 90% of the time, he's going to be looking for open 3's.

 

[tjreese]

Sorry, but you're not going to convince me that Cline has a penetrate dish/finish dimension to his game. Just like PG doesn't. CE, on the other hand, that's a huge part of his game and he's effective at it. CE is our best creator/finisher since Willie Deane.
Not saying that Cline won't periodically have opportunity to drive, but 90% of the time, he's going to be looking for open 3's.

Been a long time ago for me to remember Willike Deane. I recall him as a great scorer that could get a shot off and work a ball screen on the perimeter as well as being effective without a screen...one of the best in that regard I can remember...but don't recall him driving much..that may be ALL on me not remembering...

 

[mediaexpert]

When you review the games last year, Purdue was at its best when Vince was at SF, especially in the playoffs. He has a great game hitting the 3's, driving to the basket and posting up other SF's. This is where the loss of Biggie will hurt us the most, because we need Taylor and the news kids to provide at least 30 productive minutes at the 4. We also need to drill into Haas the mindset to grab every defensive rebound. If Haas is mopping up the boards, we can afford to go small with Vince at PF.

The good news is that we have 5 returners who will dominate at the 1, 2 and 3 spots and be interchangeable depending on whether we want to go bigger or quicker. I expect to see marked improvement from all 5.

 

[gd4now]

Do I expect this years team to light the world on fire - no. But have to say I do see some potential to come close. I am more interested in watching how they learn to play together and become more than their individual parts.

There is talent on this roster, is it enough to win it all. I am not convinced of that currently. But stranger things have happened. This past year South Carolina did not have IMO more talent but they had learned how to be better than their parts. Much like I think this current roster can be. Will it happen is yet to be seen. I do so look forward to watching them this year.

 

[Skip Hunefeld]

Do I expect this years team to light the world on fire - no. But have to say I do see some potential to come close. I am more interested in watching how they learn to play together and become more than their individual parts.

There is talent on this roster, is it enough to win it all. I am not convinced of that currently. But stranger things have happened. This past year South Carolina did not have IMO more talent but they had learned how to be better than their parts. Much like I think this current roster can be. Will it happen is yet to be seen. I do so look forward to watching them this year.

 

[WabashRiver]

How good is Haas? Of the 21 candidates for the 2014 Kyle Macy FOTY award, Haas is one of only 2 that are still playing major college ball. Of the 16 college players invited to the 2015 Pan Am game tryouts, he's the only one still in school. Each of the last 2 years he's led the B1G in points per minute.

That's 4 straight years we have evidence Haas is one of the elite players in the country. I re-watched 2nd half of the Nova game. He accounted for 3 offensive rebounds. He teamed with Dakota to stop 1st team All American Hart on 2 big defensive possessions in last 2 minutes. He set a good pick to get a ballhandler out of trouble. That's the whole package. Then you include an offensive game that made Gottlieb say Haas is as good a low post scorer as he can remember. Here's your consensus All American.

 

[nagemj02]

When you review the games last year, Purdue was at its best when Vince was at SF, especially in the playoffs. He has a great game hitting the 3's, driving to the basket and posting up other SF's. This is where the loss of Biggie will hurt us the most, because we need Taylor and the news kids to provide at least 30 productive minutes at the 4. We also need to drill into Haas the mindset to grab every defensive rebound. If Haas is mopping up the boards, we can afford to go small with Vince at PF.

The good news is that we have 5 returners who will dominate at the 1, 2 and 3 spots and be interchangeable depending on whether we want to go bigger or quicker. I expect to see marked improvement from all 5.

VE will alternate between the 3 and 4, depending on the type of lineup on the floor.

I think Taylor is more of a 5 than a 4 defensively, but we'll see what he can do. The same goes for Haarms. Ewing (assuming he successfully enrolls this month) and Wheeler (as a stretch-type) can defend the 4 as well.

 

[WabashRiver]

I re-watched the 1st half of the game at Michigan State. Perfect game to watch during the current heated Cline vs. Carsen debate because they both played most of the half. First, Biggie vs. Haas. Biggie had 8 points and a couple assists, but also his usual turnovers and poor shot selection. Haas scored/drew fouls a lot and was overall more efficient than Biggie.

Carsen had 10 quick points and surprisingly no turnovers. He did have 3 times where he forced low percentage shots which is just as bad as a turnover. I don't think he had any steals or assists. Cline was more efficient. He was 2 for 2 from 3, also had no turnovers, and only had one forced shot. He got a tough rebound (something the film hasn't shown Carsen do) and used his point guard skills to initiate the offense. Impressively, he got a steal and led a fast break and assisted on a Dakota layup. He did have one bad defensive play where he lost McQuaid who hit a 3.

Carsen played one of his most efficient games of the year and Cline was still more efficient and just as productive. My vote is still for Cline. Purdue will be better in the 7-10 of Biggje's minutes that Haas absorbs. I'm not too worried about the backup 5 with the physical measurements of the options. I am worried about Michigan State because they will be in the Final 4.

 

[bonefish1]

I re-watched the 1st half of the game at Michigan State. Perfect game to watch during the current heated Cline vs. Carsen debate because they both played most of the half. First, Biggie vs. Haas. Biggie had 8 points and a couple assists, but also his usual turnovers and poor shot selection. Haas scored/drew fouls a lot and was overall more efficient than Biggie.

Carsen had 10 quick points and surprisingly no turnovers. He did have 3 times where he forced low percentage shots which is just as bad as a turnover. I don't think he had any steals or assists. Cline was more efficient. He was 2 for 2 from 3, also had no turnovers, and only had one forced shot. He got a tough rebound (something the film hasn't shown Carsen do) and used his point guard skills to initiate the offense. Impressively, he got a steal and led a fast break and assisted on a Dakota layup. He did have one bad defensive play where he lost McQuaid who hit a 3.

Carsen played one of his most efficient games of the year and Cline was still more efficient and just as productive. My vote is still for Cline. Purdue will be better in the 7-10 of Biggje's minutes that Haas absorbs. I'm not too worried about the backup 5 with the physical measurements of the options. I am worried about Michigan State because they will be in the Final 4.

Dude....give it up. CE is a better player than Cline, period. Granted, they play different positions, but CE has a much more well rounded game. If Cline were better, he'd take Mathias' starting spot because they're much more similar than Cline and CE.
Cline is a spot of 3 point shooter. He's not a PG, he doesn't have PG skills, and he'll never play PG at Purdue.

 

[mathboy]

If Wabash wants to think Cline is better than Edwards, why does anyone care? Certainly, the arguments have been presented here. He has countered with his own. I guess we can agree to disagree here. No need to press for total agreement. Seems clear to me.

You can also form your own judgements on the knowledge and intelligence of the poster based on their position. I certainly have.

 

[boilerzz]

If Wabash wants to think Cline is better than Edwards, why does anyone care?

Totally agree. A mother should be allowed to have a heightened sense of worth for her children.

 

[BoilerJS]

Arguably, we exchange the powerful, yet turnover prone, Biggie for some talented freshmen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If Taylor can stay healthy and Ewing and Haarms can contribute, Biggie's loss won't be so bad. I think Purdue will be improved at positions 1-3.
I also think Purdue will be a better defensive team. Defense was not Biggies strong suit. Not that he wasn't capable, he just didn't play defense.
I personally think we will be as good a team as last year. The problem is we will need to be better than last year to win the much improved BIG.

 

[mediaexpert]

Wabash, may I suggest when to watch the game again, observe Biggie when he played PF and especially when Vince played SF. Biggie played very good defense. He patrolled the paint when Haas went up on the pick and roll and after Haas recovered Biggie moved well to find his man who had roamed. He had trouble against centers especially when he also had to safeguard the basket. I have great respect for Matt, but I continue to disagree that he did not use our big lineup consistently.

Fast forward to this year. Many see Vince returning at the 4, but IMO Vince will show remarkable improvement in his game.at SF game this summer. Vince is excellent at play man to man defense guarding SF, he needs to be more aggressive driving, but has shown he can post up a SF and hit the 3. Vince's pro career will be at SF and it makes sense this is what he will work on.

If Matt decides to return Vince at the 4, this means our 1-3 will have to rebound better. And Haas getting 30 minutes, does that mean Taylor and Haarms split the remaining 10 minutes at the 5? This is why they need to concentrate on the 4. If the 4 is capable; I agree our 1-3 will be dramatically improved for 2017, our 5 can be outstanding and this improvement will offset what we lost in Biggie. Bear in mind that I thought Biggie played exceptional last year.

 

[BoilerDaddy]

Wabash, may I suggest when to watch the game again, observe Biggie when he played PF and especially when Vince played SF. Biggie played very good defense. He patrolled the paint when Haas went up on the pick and roll and after Haas recovered Biggie moved well to find his man who had roamed. He had trouble against centers especially when he also had to safeguard the basket. I have great respect for Matt, but I continue to disagree that he did not use our big lineup consistently.

Fast forward to this year. Many see Vince returning at the 4, but IMO Vince will show remarkable improvement in his game.at SF game this summer. Vince is excellent at play man to man defense guarding SF, he needs to be more aggressive driving, but has shown he can post up a SF and hit the 3. Vince's pro career will be at SF and it makes sense this is what he will work on.

If Matt decides to return Vince at the 4, this means our 1-3 will have to rebound better. And Haas getting 30 minutes, does that mean Taylor and Haarms split the remaining 10 minutes at the 5? This is why they need to concentrate on the 4. If the 4 is capable; I agree our 1-3 will be dramatically improved for 2017, our 5 can be outstanding and this improvement will offset what we lost in Biggie. Bear in mind that I thought Biggie played exceptional last year.

NBA threes typically were college fours. Playing the four won't hinder Vince Edwards' development at all, IMO. He's set to have a big year, regardless, and I expect him to play most of his minutes at the 4.

 

[Dakota Girl]

Defense was not Biggies strong suit. Not that he wasn't capable, he just didn't play defense.

I agree D was not his best attribute but I can't agree with him just not playing D. He struggled with lateral quickness and he also played much of the game conservatively to make sure he was on the floor near the end.

 

[BoilerJS]

I agree D was not his best attribute but I can't agree with him just not playing D. He struggled with lateral quickness and he also played much of the game conservatively to make sure he was on the floor near the end.

I agree I don't think he was incapable of playing D. He played not to foul. Probably by Painters design.

 

[todd brewster]

[QUOTE="BoilerJS] I agree I don't think he was incapable of playing D. He played not to foul. Probably by Painters design.[/QUOTE]

This will be Haas next year, We need Haas to put in a solid 30 minutes each game. We have good 3 pt shooting, but consistency comes in scoring in the post. Haas needs the mindset to grab every rebound and grabbing 12 a night is attainable. He has to not worry so much about boxing out and more so about going after everything. This may increase his fouls.To offset this, Haas is great at positioning himself between the shooter and the bucket and this intimidates most shooters. The fans will be disappointed that he still won't block a lot of shots, but when he is in the opp FG % will drop like it did last year. We don't need him picking up too many fouls blocking more shots. He intimidates enough without it.

 

[boiler800]

So your floor is a repeat B1G championship and/or advancing to Elite 8?

I don't get why this is so hard to understand. Purdue lost it's most gifted and most driven player. Purdue is not going to be better in 2017 than a year ago. Biggie was the only player on the team that 100% believed in himself and the team every time he stepped on the floor. He was absolutely critical to Purdue's success and everyone knows it - Painter included. That's why coach largely left him in games in spite of the turnover problem - he was that mission critical. I don't need advanced metrics, BPM, and all that jazz to surmise that Purdue is going to be worse off without it's All American double-digit machine.

Nobody knows what 2017-18 will bring for Purdue, or anybody else. And that is why they play the games.

 

[tjreese]

[QUOTE="BoilerJS] I agree I don't think he was incapable of playing D. He played not to foul. Probably by Painters design.

This will be Haas next year, We need Haas to put in a solid 30 minutes each game. We have good 3 pt shooting, but consistency comes in scoring in the post. Haas needs the mindset to grab every rebound and grabbing 12 a night is attainable. He has to not worry so much about boxing out and more so about going after everything. This may increase his fouls.To offset this, Haas is great at positioning himself between the shooter and the bucket and this intimidates most shooters. The fans will be disappointed that he still won't block a lot of shots, but when he is in the opp FG % will drop like it did last year. We don't need him picking up too many fouls blocking more shots. He intimidates enough without it.[/QUOTE]
I would love for him to get 12 boards a game, but don't see it. Most rebounds are taken below the rim and don't think he is quick enough to get to the ball unless others are defending close shots...and then Purdue has other problems

 

[mediaexpert]

This will be Haas next year, We need Haas to put in a solid 30 minutes each game. We have good 3 pt shooting, but consistency comes in scoring in the post. Haas needs the mindset to grab every rebound and grabbing 12 a night is attainable. He has to not worry so much about boxing out and more so about going after everything. This may increase his fouls.To offset this, Haas is great at positioning himself between the shooter and the bucket and this intimidates most shooters. The fans will be disappointed that he still won't block a lot of shots, but when he is in the opp FG % will drop like it did last year. We don't need him picking up too many fouls blocking more shots. He intimidates enough without it.

I would love for him to get 12 boards a game, but don't see it. Most rebounds are taken below the rim and don't think he is quick enough to get to the ball unless others are defending close shots...and then Purdue has other problems[/QUOTE]

There are differences in quickness. Haas is not quick on the 40 and this is shown in how he runs the court. However, his arms are quick and this is shown in his shot taking. Albeit, he gets criticized for making finesse shots rather than powering the shot. Combine his arm finesse with his footwork and this is why Haas is good at scoring down low. Add the left hand hook and the 15 and in hump shot and I am excited for next year.

Last year, I observed Haas making sure his man was boxed out and this enabled Biggie to clean the boards. Haas' weight was distributed towards his man. This year, Haas needs to be boxing out a zone. This will shift his weight and give added quickness going towards the ball. This will also result in more opponents on his side and he needs to power through them. The refs may call an extra foul a game against him, but Haas needs to remain aggressive. The fact that most rebounds will be below the rim is the reason 12 rebounds a game is highly attainable. Haas' long arms will be quicker to the ball with an expanded area covering say 120 degrees of the 180 degrees around where the rebounds will go.

For example, last year I saw Haas boxing out and our guards swooping in and getting to the ball before Haas, BUT big deal Haas' man was boxed out and the ball could have bounced before Haas grabbed it. This year, our guards have to box out, so that no one sneaks into a 60 degree area that Haas may be slower to get to. If we are successful at that, then Haas can get 14 boards a game.

Bottom line - Haas may look slow because of the way he lumbers down the court, but a change in his mind set will make him a lot quicker. I repeat Haas get more aggressive!