Illinois and IU

[proudopete]

Ware plays very little on the perimeter and doesn't put the ball on the floor and drive like TJD did. However, unlike TJD when Ware catches on the perimeter he will shoot it. Edey can absolutely deal with Ware on the perimeter as long as he keeps focus. Edey's bigger defensive problem with IU last year was trouble in drop coverage on high post handoffs to Hood-Schifino. It was a major factor in JHS getting going. This year Mgbako, Gunn, and Galloway will fill that role with Ware, with Ware rim running after the handoff. And if Edey switches to Reneau that's who will set high screens while Ware posts up Kaufman, which is a bad matchup for Purdue.

EDIT: I can show you! Edey gets in no man's land in the drop while Trayce runs the opposite lane. Two quick video examples. You'll see that Woody draws stuff up specifically to get Edey in motion and not rim protecting:

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IU has a defensive scheme that is uses for every team that is helpful with Edey; IU does not ever have their bigs hedge perimeter ball screens. Instead the closest perimeter guy shows at the ball handler and the big guarding the screener stays back. At times something has to give and that style can put the perimeter in rotation, but the upside is that it prevents a wing getting switched onto the big in a two man game. I would expect that Painter does very little high screening with Edey and just sends him to the post.

Everybody has hedged Smith this year as putting pressure on the ball is the key to disrupting Purdue’s offense. I’m not sure a guard showing is gonna be a winning formula as Smith will just pick it apart.

I’m not worried about IU this year. Once they play some decent teams their weaknesses will shine like diamonds.

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

Everybody has hedged Smith this year as putting pressure on the ball is the key to disrupting Purdue’s offense. I’m not sure a guard showing is gonna be a winning formula as Smith will just pick it apart.

I’m not worried about IU this year. Once they play some decent teams their weaknesses will shine like diamonds.

It’s a rivalry game so always gotta worry about it!

Wasn’t there a stat that smith was shooting it at 62% this year off PnR and that put him in the 97 percentile? Think Robbie said that a game or two ago.

 

[HoosierfanJM]

Everybody has hedged Smith this year as putting pressure on the ball is the key to disrupting Purdue’s offense. I’m not sure a guard showing is gonna be a winning formula as Smith will just pick it apart.

I’m not worried about IU this year. Once they play some decent teams their weaknesses will shine like diamonds.

It’s a rivalry game so always gotta worry about it!

Wasn’t there a stat that smith was shooting it at 62% this year off PnR and that put him in the 97 percentile? Think Robbie said that a game or two ago.

So everybody has hedged Smith, and doing so has allowed Smith to perform in the 97th percentile in PnR?

Sounds like a team that shows or rotates a guard, and has the big play drop coverage will have a different strategy that could work better than 97th percentile.

I have a different take; I would expect Painter to almost exclusively send Edey to the post and have him play back to the basket to draw a double or pick up fouls one on one.

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

So everybody has hedged Smith, and doing so has allowed Smith to perform in the 97th percentile in PnR?

Sounds like a team that shows or rotates a guard, and has the big play drop coverage will have a different strategy that could work better than 97th percentile.

I have a different take; I would expect Painter to almost exclusively send Edey to the post and have him play back to the basket to draw a double or pick up fouls one on one.

No no, just saying he is shooting well out of the PnR...not saying anything about hedging sorry.

 

[HoosierfanJM]

No no, just saying he is shooting well out of the PnR...not saying anything about hedging sorry.

My bad — I multi-quoted you and proudopete, both substantive posters. He said Smith gets high hedged a ton and you cited his PnR numbers.

 

[proudopete]

So everybody has hedged Smith, and doing so has allowed Smith to perform in the 97th percentile in PnR?

Sounds like a team that shows or rotates a guard, and has the big play drop coverage will have a different strategy that could work better than 97th percentile.

I have a different take; I would expect Painter to almost exclusively send Edey to the post and have him play back to the basket to draw a double or pick up fouls one on one.

Smith practices against drop coverage everyday. He knows how to attack it and when he does, he has 7’4” NPOY playing a two man game with him. Take all of that away and Loyer, Jones and Gillis will be loaded up and waiting from deep.

Look, Ware is good but outside of Reneau, IU just doesn’t have scorers this year it appears. Maybe Gallow will get up a few of his runners or X may hit a 3 or two but IU is going to have to score 80 against good competition before I believe they present any kind of serious threat to this Purdue team.

 

[tjreese]

This is a good point. I said Edey would definitely guard Reneau, but this is a good argument he might not.

Maybe? It would certainly potentially pull Zach away from the basket. Still, not going to foul a jump shooter behind the arc whether 6'6" or 7'4". Purdue wants Zach close to the rim as much as possible and would be content if Reneau plays inside and Ware goes outside a lot with someone other than Zach on Ware. However, if Ware goes inside you do want Zach on him although I believe at this time that Caleb can defend Ward and if that happens you hope Caleb provides something on offense. However it starts, both coaches will make adjustments wishful that the change works even if a good thought.

It will also be interesting how IU defends Zach. I know at some point the #24 or such will be played to see how much shoving is allowed and how he does. Guy (sparks)looks to have a solid base, but hopefully Zach gets to the glass a bit with his shot if fighting a lot of contact to soften the shot.

@Thadoc1 I know you expect to see a double from Purdue's four due to less fear that the rotation doesn't hurt Purdue behind the arc. Although we haven't seen that you could be correct. However, that doesn't eliminate a dive from IU's 4 should that happen. Purdue has not very often in the recent past (due to 3 ball concerns) dropped a 1 through 3 player to dig at the ball to help Zach should they want to help Zach instead of rotating the 4 over which causes more rotational issue "IF" Purdue defends the dive well. You eliminate that if you don't double and instead drop a perimeter player to dig at the ball to help Zach..."IF" not worried with the 3 ball that usually is high in Matt's mind. If nothing else...mix it up if wanting to bring Zach some help.

 

[tjreese]

So everybody has hedged Smith, and doing so has allowed Smith to perform in the 97th percentile in PnR?

Sounds like a team that shows or rotates a guard, and has the big play drop coverage will have a different strategy that could work better than 97th percentile.

I have a different take; I would expect Painter to almost exclusively send Edey to the post and have him play back to the basket to draw a double or pick up fouls one on one.

very easily could be. I don't think IU changes and hedges ball. I think they get physical with the guards and push them out farther than the screens

 

[HoosierfanJM]

Maybe? It would certainly potentially pull Zach away from the basket. Still, not going to foul a jump shooter behind the arc whether 6'6" or 7'4". Purdue wants Zach close to the rim as much as possible and would be content if Reneau plays inside and Ware goes outside a lot with someone other than Zach on Ware. However, if Ware goes inside you do want Zach on him although I believe at this time that Caleb can defend Ward and if that happens you hope Caleb provides something on offense. However it starts, both coaches will make adjustments wishful that the change works even if a good thought.

It will also be interesting how IU defends Zach. I know at some point the #24 or such will be played to see how much shoving is allowed and how he does. Guy (sparks)looks to have a solid base, but hopefully Zach gets to the glass a bit with his shot if fighting a lot of contact to soften the shot.

@Thadoc1 I know you expect to see a double from Purdue's four due to less fear that the rotation doesn't hurt Purdue behind the arc. Although we haven't seen that you could be correct. However, that doesn't eliminate a dive from IU's 4 should that happen. Purdue has not very often in the recent past (due to 3 ball concerns) dropped a 1 through 3 player to dig at the ball to help Zach should they want to help Zach instead of rotating the 4 over which causes more rotational issue "IF" Purdue defends the dive well. You eliminate that if you don't double and instead drop a perimeter player to dig at the ball to help Zach..."IF" not worried with the 3 ball that usually is high in Matt's mind. If nothing else...mix it up if wanting to bring Zach some help.

#24 is Payton Sparks. Zach Edey will completely dominate Payton Sparks imo. Not a fair fight.

 

[Thadoc1]

Maybe? It would certainly potentially pull Zach away from the basket. Still, not going to foul a jump shooter behind the arc whether 6'6" or 7'4". Purdue wants Zach close to the rim as much as possible and would be content if Reneau plays inside and Ware goes outside a lot with someone other than Zach on Ware. However, if Ware goes inside you do want Zach on him although I believe at this time that Caleb can defend Ward and if that happens you hope Caleb provides something on offense. However it starts, both coaches will make adjustments wishful that the change works even if a good thought.

It will also be interesting how IU defends Zach. I know at some point the #24 or such will be played to see how much shoving is allowed and how he does. Guy (sparks)looks to have a solid base, but hopefully Zach gets to the glass a bit with his shot if fighting a lot of contact to soften the shot.

@Thadoc1 I know you expect to see a double from Purdue's four due to less fear that the rotation doesn't hurt Purdue behind the arc. Although we haven't seen that you could be correct. However, that doesn't eliminate a dive from IU's 4 should that happen. Purdue has not very often in the recent past (due to 3 ball concerns) dropped a 1 through 3 player to dig at the ball to help Zach should they want to help Zach instead of rotating the 4 over which causes more rotational issue "IF" Purdue defends the dive well. You eliminate that if you don't double and instead drop a perimeter player to dig at the ball to help Zach..."IF" not worried with the 3 ball that usually is high in Matt's mind. If nothing else...mix it up if wanting to bring Zach some help.

We double to prevent foul trouble from our bigs....also to make their center pass the ball, which is usually a struggle for them....edey will guard reneau as long as he's in the game....we will plant edey in the lane defensively, we don't need him on the perimeter chasing ware....if ware goes off from 3 or mid range with our 4 guarding him then that's fine, we'll live with that....the percentages say that's unlikely though....if ware tries to post up our 4, we will double....we will back off reneau and let him shoot as many jumpers as possible....but it will be tough at the rim for him....if iu is to beat us, their guards or wings will have to go off....I like our chances...

 

[tjreese]

We double to prevent foul trouble from our bigs....also to make their center pass the ball, which is usually a struggle for them....edey will guard reneau as long as he's in the game....we will plant edey in the lane defensively, we don't need him on the perimeter chasing ware....if ware goes off from 3 or mid range with our 4 guarding him then that's fine, we'll live with that....the percentages say that's unlikely though....if ware tries to post up our 4, we will double....we will back off reneau and let him shoot as many jumpers as possible....but it will be tough at the rim for him....if iu is to beat us, their guards or wings will have to go off....I like our chances...

I agree with all of that. So far we have only doubled the post once that I can recall. That may change though. If we double we also run the risk of dives and rotation issues which could lead to an open 3 that concerns Matt I believe, but maybe not as much with IU as many teams. What I said to also cause problems and "maybe" cause a turnover, was not to double, but to have a a 1 through 3 go down and dig on the ball (which in a pure sense is still doubling) while sill guarding the 4. Naturally this opens up the three or very easily could like the typical 4 man double, but no or less rotation issues or 4 man diving.

Problem is digging at the ball is just something I can't recall Matt doing. If we see that in any game pay attention to the guy dropping to dig at the ball. Does he turn his back towards the guy he was defending, where that guy relocates and then when he recovers off the dig has to quickly find him...OR does he turn "sideways" to dig so he can dig at the ball and still see his man? Fletcher hit a game winner last year where his defender went to dig and turned his back on Fetcher and then Fletcher just relocated a bit and the defender could nor recover in time

@HoosierfanJM believes Matt will just send Zach to the blocks most the time instead of moving vertically to the blocks. That has been the way Zach has played in the past, but I see Zach being a bit more successful moving to get position as opposed to bringing the ball to him. Matt and Woody will have some plans and many will go to the wayside a bit as the game will take on a life of its own with the generalities that each team possess I expect. Purdue should win, but they should have won twice down there and lost their poise. More often than not...no matter which team is the best, it is a dogfight

 

[choptalk]

His development is impressive and didn’t know he had a 3 pt shot too. Did he steal it from Galloway? That dude cannot hit a 3 to save his life

Galloway doesn’t have TJD to get wide open looks. He took advantage.

 

[tjreese]

Galloway doesn’t have TJD to get wide open looks. He took advantage.

TJD was the variable that affected all of Purdue's defense...just like Zach does to teams

 

[HoosierfanJM]

Galloway doesn’t have TJD to get wide open looks. He took advantage.

Makes sense but not really true, and it’s no compliment to Galloway; he has been missing jump shots with no one within ten feet of him.

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

Makes sense but not really true, and it’s no compliment to Galloway; he has been missing jump shots with no one within ten feet of him.

Last year he had wide open looks too and hit a low volume at a high clip, but he was a not so good 3 pt shooter his first two years and is now going back to what he actually is. As you know, he is best at slashing and gettin to the hoop.

 

[choptalk]

Makes sense but not really true, and it’s no compliment to Galloway; he has been missing jump shots with no one within ten feet of him.

I think it does. His shooting percent last year was over 45%. While he may not be hitting them this year, TJD was a big reason last year.

 

[Schmedly_Whiplash]

Ware was a terrible, low-confidence mess last year that ended up buried on the Oregon bench. He averaged 6.6 ppg, 4.1 rpg on 45% fg and 27% 3pt. That's when he was coached by Dana Altman, who after a good game from Ware said at a press conference "at least he acted like he wanted to be here tonight."

This year he is at 17.1, 9.4, 64% fg, 50% 3pt. He is being coached by Mike Woodson.

Dana Altman sucks. Mike Woodson does not suck.

But is he any good? Remains a question at this point.

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

But is he any good? Remains a question at this point.

According to IU fans…he’s a lotto pick lock. According to others…he hasn’t done anything out of the ordinary vs actual good competition since their OOC schedule, so far, hasn’t been against much competition besides UConn who they lost to by 20…and UConn had their lotto pick Frosh guard sitting out.

Ware has all the tools to be a top 10 pick but struggled vs his only real test vs clingan. Saw ware is in the range of 15-20 right now.

 

[HoosierfanJM]

According to IU fans…he’s a lotto pick lock. According to others…he hasn’t done anything out of the ordinary vs actual good competition since their OOC schedule, so far, hasn’t been against much competition besides UConn who they lost to by 20…and UConn had their lotto pick Frosh guard sitting out.

Ware has all the tools to be a top 10 pick but struggled vs his only real test vs clingan. Saw ware is in the range of 15-20 right now.

lol not a “lotto pick lock.” 15-25 sounds about right currently.

Is he any good? He’s a 19 year old seven footer who is learning and will have bad days, but is super skilled and can score at all three levels. If you hear him interviewed he’s a really nice kid who is very shy/low key. The NBA loves high ceiling developmental players.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Dana Altman sucks. Mike Woodson does not suck.

Eh… Altman has a much better track record in college basketball. Guy can coach.

 

[HoosierfanJM]

Eh… Altman has a much better track record in college basketball. Guy can coach.

Altman can “Nike $$” into some big talent. In a long time at Oregon with that talent he hasn’t done that much.

Woody has an infinitely better resume as a coach, but hasn’t been in college long.

 

[lovelyblonde]

Both looking better than I imagined, same with Wisky, on the other hand MSU looks lousy right now, we know that will change as the season goes on. I think Purdue is the class of the league, however, some of these teams on the road won’t be easy dubs!

Do not let IU fool you. The only competition they have really played was UCONN and anybody can see how that went. Today should be another big test for them, but until Ware has a constant guy on him his size, he should be their more consistent guy. I think Malik is good at the 4 and then they are just average.

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

lol not a “lotto pick lock.” 15-25 sounds about right currently.

Is he any good? He’s a 19 year old seven footer who is learning and will have bad days, but is super skilled and can score at all three levels. If you hear him interviewed he’s a really nice kid who is very shy/low key. The NBA loves high ceiling developmental players.

Haha hey I’m glad you’re realistic but your board and Reddit threads tend to think he’s a lotto lock.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Woody has an infinitely better resume as a coach

LOL no he doesn’t.

 

[HoosierfanJM]

LOL no he doesn’t.

lol back; the architect of the defense for an NBA championship is something most would believe is kinda impressive on a coaching resume. Winning playoff series as the head coach of the Knicks is good too.

Altman has been a D1 coach for 34 years and has 15 tournament appearances. Woody is 2/2.

 

[lovelyblonde]

Both looking better than I imagined, same with Wisky, on the other hand MSU looks lousy right now, we know that will change as the season goes on. I think Purdue is the class of the league, however, some of these teams on the road won’t be easy

Both looking better than I imagined, same with Wisky, on the other hand MSU looks lousy right now, we know that will change as the season goes on. I think Purdue is the class of the league, however, some of these teams on the road won’t be easy dubs!

I’ve already commented on this thread, but now you saw iu play another good team and had the same results. I’m not sold on them .

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

lol back; the architect of the defense for an NBA championship is something most would believe is kinda impressive on a coaching resume. Winning playoff series as the head coach of the Knicks is good too.

Altman has been a D1 coach for 34 years and has 15 tournament appearances. Woody is 2/2.

Thoughts on the Auburn matchup and what type of team IU is at this point?

 

[Poprudy]

lol back; the architect of the defense for an NBA championship is something most would believe is kinda impressive on a coaching resume. Winning playoff series as the head coach of the Knicks is good too.

Altman has been a D1 coach for 34 years and has 15 tournament appearances. Woody is 2/2.

Not a fair comparison. You have to give Altman some credit. He made Creighton(MVC) and Oregon better programs just look at the records before he got to each. Woody took over an established program that has continued to pour money into it and an established team for his first 2 seasons. This year will determine how good he is and most have IU missing the tourney with 2-3 5*'s.

I believe they're both similar because they recruit well and have schools with big donors that will spend big money to be successful. The difference is IU has a much larger delusional fan base.

 

[HoosierfanJM]

Thoughts on the Auburn matchup and what type of team IU is at this point?

Thoughts are; really inconsistent but high potential as a team, guards were lousy so best guard injured is more noticeable, other guards exposed by pressure defense with starting point guard out.

 

[HoosierfanJM]

Not a fair comparison. You have to give Altman some credit. He made Creighton(MVC) and Oregon better programs just look at the records before he got to each. Woody took over an established program that has continued to pour money into it and an established team for his first 2 seasons. This year will determine how good he is and most have IU missing the tourney with 2-3 5*'s.

I believe they're both similar because they recruit well and have schools with big donors that will spend big money to be successful. The difference is IU has a much larger delusional fan base.

Would you agree that IU was floundering when Woody took over? And he’s the one that recruited well. As for “most would agree?” It’s mid December and IU is 2-0 in conference. I’m pretty sure that “most” have little idea where IU will end up.

Altman isn’t a train wreck, he’s just kinda good enough. 15/34 years in the tournament at P5 schools is not that good. But he wins regular season games and Oregon is more a football school so he’s fine I guess. If Woody doesn’t outperform Altman, IU will have Dusty May as their coach in a few years.

 

[ChoiceBeef]

Thoughts are; really inconsistent but high potential as a team, guards were lousy so best guard injured is more noticeable, other guards exposed by pressure defense with starting point guard out.

How long is X out? Feel like foot injuries are so hard to come back from especially at his advanced age

 

[Poprudy]

Thoughts are; really inconsistent but high potential as a team, guards were lousy so best guard injured is more noticeable, other guards exposed by pressure defense with starting point guard out.

Why does Woody use Galloway as a SG? The poor kid can't shoot and couldn't in high school. IU just got trounced by a mid pack SEC team. It's not just X being gone. The blame is Woody didn't construct a team very well. Good coaches recruit to their style and can coach those players up to beyond their rankings. Woody is recruiting based on NBA potential and that will fail him. IMO

 

[ChoiceBeef]

You’ve lost Martha

 

[Poprudy]

Would you agree that IU was floundering when Woody took over? And he’s the one that recruited well. As for “most would agree?” It’s mid December and IU is 2-0 in conference. I’m pretty sure that “most” have little idea where IU will end up.

Altman isn’t a train wreck, he’s just kinda good enough. 15/34 years in the tournament at P5 schools is not that good. But he wins regular season games and Oregon is more a football school so he’s fine I guess. If Woody doesn’t outperform Altman, IU will have Dusty May as their coach in a few years.

Here goes the May talk again. You realize May will most likely be gone after this year to a big program and he'll get a huge contract.

Altman took Creighton(MVC) to a school record 7 tournaments, left them in a better position with the transition to the Big East.

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

Why does Woody use Galloway as a SG? The poor kid can't shoot and couldn't in high school. IU just got trounced by a mid pack SEC team. It's not just X being gone. The blame is Woody didn't construct a team very well. Good coaches recruit to their style and can coach those players up to beyond their rankings. Woody is recruiting based on NBA potential and that will fail him. IMO

They don’t have anyone to play SG. I assume they wanted Gunn to play there. But he hasn’t shown he is consistent there and his defense isn’t as good as Gallo’s I guess? I would certainly try Gunn. Also, he needs to stop doing these hockey substitutions.

 

[Poprudy]

They don’t have anyone to play SG. I assume they wanted Gunn to play there. But he hasn’t shown he is consistent there and his defense isn’t as good as Gallo’s I guess? I would certainly try Gunn. Also, he needs to stop doing these hockey substitutions.

I agree with Gunn but that blame is on Woody for not preparing the team for their needs. He is an NBA guy that can coach talent but constructing a team with holes/gaps he just hasn't figured that out. I believe that's why IU brought in Matta and Fife to help.

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

Would you agree that IU was floundering when Woody took over? And he’s the one that recruited well. As for “most would agree?” It’s mid December and IU is 2-0 in conference. I’m pretty sure that “most” have little idea where IU will end up.

Altman isn’t a train wreck, he’s just kinda good enough. 15/34 years in the tournament at P5 schools is not that good. But he wins regular season games and Oregon is more a football school so he’s fine I guess. If Woody doesn’t outperform Altman, IU will have Dusty May as their coach in a few years.

Serious question, wouldn’t you want to see a little more from May? Like if he can recruit and win without this core group he has right now? Before last year, they weren’t very good and May wasn’t even a name the IU fan base knew, since he was lowly film assistant.

What if May only takes this years team to the S16 and then barely squeaks in the year after and is unable to get recruits? Right now the current class for FAU is 92nd overall.

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

I agree with Gunn but that blame is on Woody for not preparing the team for their needs. He is an NBA guy that can coach talent but constructing a team with holes/gaps he just hasn't figured that out. I believe that's why IU brought in Matta and Fife to help.

100%

 

[HoosierfanJM]

They don’t have anyone to play SG. I assume they wanted Gunn to play there. But he hasn’t shown he is consistent there and his defense isn’t as good as Gallo’s I guess? I would certainly try Gunn. Also, he needs to stop doing these hockey substitutions.

I suspect they had a major role in mind for Jakai Newton who is also out, maybe for the season. So Gunn was the third choice at SG.

X’s foot injury isn’t a break so he’s got a shot; most likely if he’s 100% it’ll be around January 1st.

It’s a tough situation—losing two of the team’s expected three or four top guards is no joke. As well as Purdue has played and as dominant as Edey has been, imagine them without Smith and one other rotation guard. That shit completely changes the dynamic.

 

[HoosierfanJM]

Serious question, wouldn’t you want to see a little more from May? Like if he can recruit and win without this core group he has right now? Before last year, they weren’t very good and May wasn’t even a name the IU fan base knew, since he was lowly film assistant.

What if May only takes this years team to the S16 and then barely squeaks in the year after and is unable to get recruits? Right now the current class for FAU is 92nd overall.

No young-ish coach is a sure thing. May appears to be wired to succeed. The biggest factor is the assessment of people in the industry that know more than me.

May is a Greene County guy and IU is his dream job, but I would imagine Louisville will give him a long look when the fire Payne (which will be soon). FWIW, Michael Lewis has been excellent at Ball St, was the top assistant to Cronin ant UCLA, and also has IU as his dream job. Hoping that Woody thrives and it’s all a moot point.