Govt Budget

[Boiler Buck]

The budget proposed by President Joe Biden is $5.8 trillion.

That is about $17,000 for every person in US.

Family of 4.......$68,000.

Whether you are a D, R or I this ought to make you very angry.

Want to help the poor? What could a poor family do with $68,000??

Want to fix homelessness? How many apartments could be built for the homeless?

I could go on with other problems...

And I am sure a small fraction (billions) are in the budget for the above.....and other problems. BUT there always has been Govt $ toward those problems for YEARS.

State budgets - same thing.

So begs the question.....
What problems has Gov't SOLVED over the last 50 years with the trillion$ spent??? Any???

No, ALL these problems still exist and most continue to worsen.

Thus...Gov't as conducted is not the answer!

Political parties never want to solve problems....but use rheteric to just steal your tax money to spread it around to their power base.....never to SOLVE anything. Quit backing these D & R CROOKS.

 

[SKYDOG]

The budget proposed by President Joe Biden is $5.8 trillion.

That is about $17,000 for every person in US.

Family of 4.......$68,000.

Whether you are a D, R or I this ought to make you very angry.

Want to help the poor? What could a poor family do with $68,000??

Want to fix homelessness? How many apartments could be built for the homeless?

I could go on with other problems...

And I am sure a small fraction (billions) are in the budget for the above.....and other problems. BUT there always has been Govt $ toward those problems for YEARS.

State budgets - same thing.

So begs the question.....
What problems has Gov't SOLVED over the last 50 years with the trillion$ spent??? Any???

No, ALL these problems still exist and most continue to worsen.

Thus...Gov't as conducted is not the answer!

Political parties never want to solve problems....but use rheteric to just steal your tax money to spread it around to their power base.....never to SOLVE anything. Quit backing these D & R CROOKS.

I wonder how much of that money is appropriated for the care packages for the illegal immigrants coming over? Whatever it is probably won’t be enough. This issue really pisses me off more than anything this administration has done.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

The budget proposed by President Joe Biden is $5.8 trillion.

That is about $17,000 for every person in US.

Family of 4.......$68,000.

Whether you are a D, R or I this ought to make you very angry.

Want to help the poor? What could a poor family do with $68,000??

Want to fix homelessness? How many apartments could be built for the homeless?

I could go on with other problems...

And I am sure a small fraction (billions) are in the budget for the above.....and other problems. BUT there always has been Govt $ toward those problems for YEARS.

State budgets - same thing.

So begs the question.....
What problems has Gov't SOLVED over the last 50 years with the trillion$ spent??? Any???

No, ALL these problems still exist and most continue to worsen.

Thus...Gov't as conducted is not the answer!

Political parties never want to solve problems....but use rheteric to just steal your tax money to spread it around to their power base.....never to SOLVE anything. Quit backing these D & R CROOKS.

I have no issue paying taxes If like you said we were building apartments for the homeless. We spend it on war. 1 trillion annually in defense related costs a couple years ago. What happened to the peace dividend

 

[SKYDOG]

I have no issue paying taxes If like you said we were building apartments for the homeless. We spend it on war. 1 trillion annually in defense related costs a couple years ago. What happened to the peace dividend

You’re a better man than me. I have a big problem paying taxes on the way the money is wasted more so than ever before.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

You’re a better man than me. I have a big problem paying taxes on the way the money is wasted more so than ever before.

Oh no I’m mad that the money is wasted on stuff that doesn’t come back to me

 

[Boiler Buck]

I have no issue paying taxes If like you said we were building apartments for the homeless. We spend it on war. 1 trillion annually in defense related costs a couple years ago. What happened to the peace dividend

Yes defense funding as it is lines pockets of defense contractors and defense corporations. Very ineffeicient use of the near trillion $ they get. But that is just one of the many corporate fat cats and political pals, and special interests getting fat off of political spending in all areas.

Beyond roads ..., I need nor want very little from Govt.

As far as SS & Med I would be happy to get back a one time payment that is reflective of all I paid in plus interest on those paycheck thefts the last 40 years.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

Yes defense funding as it is lines pockets of defense contractors and defense corporations. Very ineffeicient use of the near trillion $ they get. But that is just one of the many corporate fat cats and political pals, and special interests getting fat off of political spending in all areas.

Beyond roads ..., I need nor want very little from Govt.

As far as SS & Med I would be happy to get back a one time payment that is reflective of all I paid in plus interest on those paycheck thefts the last 40 years.

Capital is in control of this process. What do you think you’re gonna get. $124 billion in excess profits ain’t enough for the oil companies in 2022. They need that subsidy money. And therefore this is the system you get. Free stuff for those at the very bottom is a bribery against revolt.

strap yourself in cause it ain’t getting better and it will be driven from the top.. the top 10% of income earners control policy in this country. So.. you know who you can petition 😁

 

[Nbergbuck]

The budget proposed by President Joe Biden is $5.8 trillion.

That is about $17,000 for every person in US.

Family of 4.......$68,000.

Whether you are a D, R or I this ought to make you very angry.

Want to help the poor? What could a poor family do with $68,000??

Want to fix homelessness? How many apartments could be built for the homeless?

I could go on with other problems...

And I am sure a small fraction (billions) are in the budget for the above.....and other problems. BUT there always has been Govt $ toward those problems for YEARS.

State budgets - same thing.

So begs the question.....
What problems has Gov't SOLVED over the last 50 years with the trillion$ spent??? Any???

No, ALL these problems still exist and most continue to worsen.

Thus...Gov't as conducted is not the answer!

Political parties never want to solve problems....but use rheteric to just steal your tax money to spread it around to their power base.....never to SOLVE anything. Quit backing these D & R CROOKS.

I am guessing that about 2 trillion of this will be deficit spending. There should be an amendment to the Constitution requiring a balanced budget. So let's say the budget is 5.8T, but taxes are projected to only bring in 3.8T. The 2T difference is covered by a national sales tax on EVERYTHING. The rate would be set so the gap is covered, whatever it is. People can't afford the sales tax? Then the budget is 3.8T. Make do. It is not fair to saddle future generations with this spend now pay later(or never) nonsense.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

I am guessing that about 2 trillion of this will be deficit spending. There should be an amendment to the Constitution requiring a balanced budget. So let's say the budget is 5.8T, but taxes are projected to only bring in 3.8T. The 2T difference is covered by a national sales tax on EVERYTHING. The rate would be set so the gap is covered, whatever it is. People can't afford the sales tax? Then the budget is 3.8T. Make do. It is not fair to saddle future generations with this spend now pay later(or never) nonsense.

Why? If you’re in the upper class the money was spent on subsidies to make you rich. There’s no such thing as spending money to make Jeff bezos, exxon and defense contractors rich, then turning around and asking my mom to pay $280 for $100 in groceries.

(If you were to be of that class) take some of that free money you got and figure it out. Cause my family never got free shit.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

I am guessing that about 2 trillion of this will be deficit spending. There should be an amendment to the Constitution requiring a balanced budget. So let's say the budget is 5.8T, but taxes are projected to only bring in 3.8T. The 2T difference is covered by a national sales tax on EVERYTHING. The rate would be set so the gap is covered, whatever it is. People can't afford the sales tax? Then the budget is 3.8T. Make do. It is not fair to saddle future generations with this spend now pay later(or never) nonsense.

Let me get this straight. Does your argument go like this? Cause it sounds like it…

“hey you know those hundreds of billions in defense money we didn’t need to spend and subsidy money that nobody asked for and nobody wanted. Well the bill is due.. what’s with you and not wanting to pay $5.35 for that one dollar head of lettuce?”

really? Our “debt” was spent to enrich those at the very top.

this is not even a capitalist system. In that system everyone involved in tarp would have lost their ass and we could have capitalized local banks

 

[Nbergbuck]

Why? If you’re in the upper class the money was spent on subsidies to make you rich. There’s no such thing as spending money to make Jeff bezos, exxon and defense contractors rich, then turning around and asking my mom to pay $280 for $100 in groceries.

(If you were to be of that class) take some of that free money you got and figure it out. Cause my family never got free shit.

My post is advocating the Congress take responsibility for the budget as a whole. They are NEVER going to do anything like a national sales tax. So what is the alternative? Spend only the money you have. We could start by looking at the fact the fed'l gov't has grown far beyond what the Constitution outlined. That is a big part of the deficit every year. The fed'l gov't is simply too large to be funded responsibly.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

My post is advocating the Congress take responsibility for the budget as a whole. They are NEVER going to do anything like a national sales tax. So what is the alternative? Spend only the money you have. We could start by looking at the fact the fed'l gov't has grown far beyond what the Constitution outlined. That is a big part of the deficit every year. The fed'l gov't is simply too large to be funded responsibly.

I guess you’re coming from a good place … I would just implore you to consider who benefited from running up this massive debt. If the Debt came from housing subsidies and small business grants and everyone was sitting there with a paid off house and a corner store ok fine

but since most Americans really reaped no benefited from this debt, I find any solution where they have consequences to be unconscionable

 

[Nbergbuck]

I guess you’re coming from a good place … I would just implore you to consider who benefited from running up this massive debt. If the Debt came from housing subsidies and small business grants and everyone was sitting there with a paid off house and a corner store ok fine

but since most Americans really reaped no benefited from this debt, I find any solution where they have consequences to be unconscionable

Many have benefited from the debt run up. Food stamps, medicaid, medicare etc. That said, the very wealthy need to be taxed far more than they are.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

Many have benefited from the debt run up. Food stamps, medicaid, medicare etc. That said, the very wealthy need to be taxed far more than they are.

Those were all present in expenditures before the debt exploded. I believe it was only at 1 trillion when Reagan took office and tripled under his watch.

so, say we have a budget.. and say it’s $10. And that’s what we can afford. And say in that ten dollars 70% of it goes for things that benefit me.

now say you’re rich and you want subsidies this and defense spending we don’t need that and so on … and you raise the expenditures to $100, but still only $7 benefited me

decades later when it’s no longer sustainable you don’t get to come back and say “I mean seven whole dollars in expenditures every year did benefit you.. consequences …”

they print billions and billions to keep overnight debt markets solvent. They weren’t doing that when my grandma got medicare. Why is it my problem? All I need is a local community bank. All the billions printed to keep chase going sounds like chases ****in problem. Give me anywhere USA local bank.. I’m fine with it.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

“Coal, oil, and natural gas received $5.9 trillion in subsidies in 2020 — or roughly $11 million every minute — according to a new analysis from the International Monetary Fund. Explicit subsidies accounted for only 8 percent of the total.”

There’s your debt … and the people who want to end this in Washington probably are no better because they are just fighting to transfer those subsidies over to renewables.. which is a Ponzi scheme due to not being able to create intermittency…

I need the subsidies not to exist. Not for someone to pretend we fixed a problem because the 5.9 trillion gets transferred over to people who have you plug your car into another fossil fuel source lol

 

[Nbergbuck]

The fed'l gov't spent 6.6T in 2020. So are you saying that almost all of that went to fossil fuel subsidies? I don't think so, but please clarify.

 

[TheGunner]

The budget proposed by President Joe Biden is $5.8 trillion.

That is about $17,000 for every person in US.

Family of 4.......$68,000.

Whether you are a D, R or I this ought to make you very angry.

Want to help the poor? What could a poor family do with $68,000??

Want to fix homelessness? How many apartments could be built for the homeless?

I could go on with other problems...

And I am sure a small fraction (billions) are in the budget for the above.....and other problems. BUT there always has been Govt $ toward those problems for YEARS.

State budgets - same thing.

So begs the question.....
What problems has Gov't SOLVED over the last 50 years with the trillion$ spent??? Any???

No, ALL these problems still exist and most continue to worsen.

Thus...Gov't as conducted is not the answer!

Political parties never want to solve problems....but use rheteric to just steal your tax money to spread it around to their power base.....never to SOLVE anything. Quit backing these D & R CROOKS.

Feel the BURN or “Feel the Bern” (ie Sanders)

Democrats burn through cash faster than Wives of Orange County going to Rodeo Drive to go Christmas shopping.

But inflation is from COVID and Putin.🤦‍♂️

 

[Boiler Buck]

“Coal, oil, and natural gas received $5.9 trillion in subsidies in 2020 — or roughly $11 million every minute — according to a new analysis from the International Monetary Fund. Explicit subsidies accounted for only 8 percent of the total.”

There’s your debt … and the people who want to end this in Washington probably are no better because they are just fighting to transfer those subsidies over to renewables.. which is a Ponzi scheme due to not being able to create intermittency…

I need the subsidies not to exist. Not for someone to pretend we fixed a problem because the 5.9 trillion gets transferred over to people who have you plug your car into another fossil fuel source lol

Agree on subsidies should not exist.
Disagree on amount you gave.

 

[TheGunner]

“Coal, oil, and natural gas received $5.9 trillion in subsidies in 2020 — or roughly $11 million every minute — according to a new analysis from the International Monetary Fund. Explicit subsidies accounted for only 8 percent of the total.”

There’s your debt … and the people who want to end this in Washington probably are no better because they are just fighting to transfer those subsidies over to renewables.. which is a Ponzi scheme due to not being able to create intermittency…

I need the subsidies not to exist. Not for someone to pretend we fixed a problem because the 5.9 trillion gets transferred over to people who have you plug your car into another fossil fuel source lol

You realize the $5.9T is a world wide subsidy and not just US correct?

Quick assessment is the worldwide GDP is $84T, of which the US is roughly $20T…so maybe the US subsidies were $1.2-1.5T, probably to keep people from getting laid off due to minimal energy consumption.

 

[TeddyValentineDidNothingWrong]

I agree. Slash the military budget and give money back to citizens while improving basic infrastructure and a public option.

 

[Boiler Buck]

Slash ALL budgets and give money back to citizens while improving basic infrastructure and a public option.

FiFY

 

[BCfanatic2020]

You realize the $5.9T is a world wide subsidy and not just US correct?

Quick assessment is the worldwide GDP is $84T, of which the US is roughly $20T…so maybe the US subsidies were $1.2-1.5T, probably to keep people from getting laid off due to minimal energy consumption.

Lol 50 billion is way too much … “oh you know that thing that nobody wants… it’s not THAT much.”

 

[BCfanatic2020]

Agree on subsidies should not exist.
Disagree on amount you gave.

Came from Yale. Ask them about it

 

[TeddyValentineDidNothingWrong]

FiFY

We can do it with just the military budget. No need to pull from important things.

 

[Boiler Buck]

We can do it with just the military budget. No need to pull from important things.

Examples of your "important things"......

Millions for antiquated EFNEP expanded food and nutrition program. This program hires government folks to "teach" people how to cook and eat. Lol

National Land Grant System established 1862 to teach people better ways of farming....Still 21+ million $ annually.

Public Health Service Commission Corps was created in the late 1800s to provide health care to merchant seamen.....$452 million a year

A few more ......

9 Wasteful Programs From Massive Spending Bill That Can, and Should, Be Reversed

President Donald Trump is right: There’s a lot of ridiculous gimmicks and wasteful projects in the new massive spending bill. And the good news is there’s something that Trump can do about it, even though he recently signed the huge COVID-19 stimulus and omnibus spending bill into law...

www.heritage.org

 

[TeddyValentineDidNothingWrong]

Examples of your "important things"......

Millions for antiquated EFNEP expanded food and nutrition program. This program hires government folks to "teach" people how to cook and eat. Lol

National Land Grant System established 1862 to teach people better ways of farming....Still 21+ million $ annually.

Public Health Service Commission Corps was created in the late 1800s to provide health care to merchant seamen.....$452 million a year

A few more ......

9 Wasteful Programs From Massive Spending Bill That Can, and Should, Be Reversed

President Donald Trump is right: There’s a lot of ridiculous gimmicks and wasteful projects in the new massive spending bill. And the good news is there’s something that Trump can do about it, even though he recently signed the huge COVID-19 stimulus and omnibus spending bill into law...

www.heritage.org

We've literally spent more than all of that combined on developing the F35, a plane whose only tactical use is blowing up.

 

[Boiler Buck]

We've literally spent more than all of that combined on developing the F35, a plane whose only tactical use is blowing up.

Military budgets need slashed as I said above.

Your point was the rest of the budget were other "important things". I listed 12 wasreful items and could have listed 100s more. Nobody wastes your money like the Government. Not to mention the wastes of hundreds of thousands of bloated Govt saleries....some needed...most not.

Outside of roads, and protection agencies like... basic limited defense budget, basic homeland security, Basic FBI, FDA, CDC, etc. Most of the rest is a total waste.

As far as SS...just pay back our SS & medicare with intetest.

Slash it all.

State budgets can handle the needs of local and state problems.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

Military budgets need slashed as I said above.

Your point was the rest of the budget were other "important things". I listed 12 wasreful items and could have listed 100s more. Nobody wastes your money like the Government. Not to mention the wastes of hundreds of thousands of bloated Govt saleries....some needed...most not.

Outside of roads, and protection agencies like... basic limited defense budget, basic homeland security, Basic FBI, FDA, CDC, etc. Most of the rest is a total waste.

As far as SS...just pay back our SS & medicare with intetest.

Slash it all.

State budgets can handle the needs of local and state problems.

I’m failing to see how a bunch of rich people acting like 1980s partiers in Los Angeles means that my kid can’t have a good education with a well paid teacher. And no, I don’t mean in a state of the art high school with sweet contracts for whatever contractors happen to be connected to some political figure.

you could eradicate homelessness for $26 billion annually. You know what that means even if I happen to make good money and live in a nice place with a nice warm bed and good food? I don’t have to be jumped by a homeless person while I’m out on a date walking through the city. You know why? Cause instead of wandering the street they can be … home.

you could do so many things like this and still massively slash the budget.

remember when we were spending 300 billion on the military during the Cold War? Lying rich people who will do anything to get your MONEY told us all “well you know uh I mean there will be a peace dividend and we can bring that down to 100 billion, so we haaaaaave to spend the 300, right?”

we are bombing in 8 countries and have 1000 military bases .. we don’t have an enemy who could do anything to us.

we could make you happy and me happy AND give money back to people with $900 billion dollars

 

[Matt Tiger]

The budget proposed by President Joe Biden is $5.8 trillion.

That is about $17,000 for every person in US.

Family of 4.......$68,000.

Whether you are a D, R or I this ought to make you very angry.

Want to help the poor? What could a poor family do with $68,000??

Want to fix homelessness? How many apartments could be built for the homeless?

I could go on with other problems...

And I am sure a small fraction (billions) are in the budget for the above.....and other problems. BUT there always has been Govt $ toward those problems for YEARS.

State budgets - same thing.

So begs the question.....
What problems has Gov't SOLVED over the last 50 years with the trillion$ spent??? Any???

No, ALL these problems still exist and most continue to worsen.

Thus...Gov't as conducted is not the answer!

Political parties never want to solve problems....but use rheteric to just steal your tax money to spread it around to their power base.....never to SOLVE anything. Quit backing these D & R CROOKS.

I normally dont get in these discussions but you nailed it by calling both the Rs and Ds. crooked.I dont know why any one would be a proud member of either party.

 

[tjreese]

You’re a better man than me. I have a big problem paying taxes on the way the money is wasted more so than ever before.

 

[SIBoiler2]

How much are we wasting on the boring jackass Gore running around the world pretending to be the all knowing climate czar while he's likely stuffing his pockets off his climate agenda.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

How much are we wasting on the boring jackass Gore running around the world pretending to be the all knowing climate czar while he's likely stuffing his pockets off his climate agenda.

Likely? He is!

 

[BoilerBiker]

Political parties never want to solve problems....but use rheteric to just steal your tax money to spread it around to their power base.....never to SOLVE anything. Quit backing these D & R CROOKS.

when one is in an abusive, untrustworthy relationship, it is time to separate.

it is time to peacefully separate and divorce D.C.

 

[Boiler Buck]

Is it true this administration is passing out new smartphones and paying the monthly bill to illegal immigrants?

Well if so amother example of a government CUT that can be made. Geez.

 

[SCBoiler1]

Okay, everyone go back and look at your tax return. If you're working, add in how much you paid in social security and Medicare tax. Now that's how much you paid into the federal government.

Now take that $17,000 and multiply it by the number people in your household.

If you paid in less than the $17,000 per person, then you are a Taker. You are not subsidizing others, others are subsidizing you!

And if you are receiving social security or Medicare, shame on you for complaining because you never paid enough into those programs to pay for what you are getting in return.

 

[Boiler Buck]

Okay, everyone go back and look at your tax return. If you're working, add in how much you paid in social security and Medicare tax. Now that's how much you paid into the federal government.

Now take that $17,000 and multiply it by the number people in your household.

If you paid in less than the $17,000 per person, then you are a Taker. You are not subsidizing others, others are subsidizing you!

And if you are receiving social security or Medicare, shame on you for complaining because you never paid enough into those programs to pay for what you are getting in return.

As far as SS & Medicare I would be happy to get a lump sum from the Govt of what I have paid in plus interest over the years. Those programs are both unsustainable. It should NOT be the Gov'ts job to take care of the older folks or our medical bills anyway.

As far as the $17k you miss the whole point. NO way the Gov't should spend even 1/4th that much that amount is obscene.

Moreover, it is unsustainable. As ANYONE can see the resultant inflation is already devaluing everything. Over time spending like this makes the dollar become worthless. Additionally, future savings will be irrelevant as the common man won't have enough saved away to keep up with inflation at retirement.

It all comes down to that there are extreme problems with this crazy deficit spending over time. The national debt's interest reaches a tipping point some time soon and then the whole system comes crashing. Not good.

 

[tjreese]

Okay, everyone go back and look at your tax return. If you're working, add in how much you paid in social security and Medicare tax. Now that's how much you paid into the federal government.

Now take that $17,000 and multiply it by the number people in your household.

If you paid in less than the $17,000 per person, then you are a Taker. You are not subsidizing others, others are subsidizing you!

And if you are receiving social security or Medicare, shame on you for complaining because you never paid enough into those programs to pay for what you are getting in return.

Actually, there are and were many that would have benefited in having thier money instead of social security...people that worked anyway. That money only grew a little over 3% and so you needed to beat that number to have more and of course if you died...you would still have something. What also is not discussed is the extra 6% (or is it 6.5% today) the company paid in addition that might have went toward your salary or at least some. Then independent workers pay that 12-13% in total and so it is much easier for them to come out ahead.

Course being responsible for yourself makes it less likely to be dependent on the blob and a more independent voter. Too many people trying to buy votes as well as enrich themselves in the process. Anyone can see what I said about soc. You just take all you paid forth in social security and let each year grow until your retirement date and see if 4% or more beats your number. You will have a sum that can be used if desired for an annuity or just assuming some growth of 6% and pulling out the monthly allowance to duplicate the soc number in payment and "still" have the lump sum. Part of soc payouts is dependent on all those that contribute and then die before getting anything. Redistribution of anything rarely helps the contributors as much as those that rarely contribute.

 

[SCBoiler1]

As far as SS & Medicare I would be happy to get a lump sum from the Govt of what I have paid in plus interest over the years. Those programs are both unsustainable. It should NOT be the Gov'ts job to take care of the older folks or our medical bills anyway.

As far as the $17k you miss the whole point. NO way the Gov't should spend even 1/4th that much that amount is obscene.

Moreover, it is unsustainable. As ANYONE can see the resultant inflation is already devaluing everything. Over time spending like this makes the dollar become worthless. Additionally, future savings will be irrelevant as the common man won't have enough saved away to keep up with inflation at retirement.

It all comes down to that there are extreme problems with this crazy deficit spending over time. The national debt's interest reaches a tipping point some time soon and then the whole system comes crashing. Not good.

I agree with many of your points. I think the government spending does go overboard and I'm sure there are waste, even though I couldn't specifically identify were it is without dedicating my life to it.

I believe SS is necessary because I don't think we can trust the average US citizen to save enough for retirement on their own let alone someone who has some bad luck and can't work for whatever reason. You're already seeing it. As the age of the defined benefit plan is sun setting its pretty evident that the average American hasn't saved enough to retire with social security, let alone without it. The median household net worth of 65-74 year olds was $266,400 in September 2020. Without social security and Medicare that may last 3 or 4 years with a lot of it going to healthcare cost.

I'm not convinced that people would be as responsible as you and invest the SS money not paid in for the future. How many 25-30 year olds are maxing out their 401k contributions? Its just not in our nature as Americans to sacrifice now for something that seems a lifetime away.

 

[SCBoiler1]

Actually, there are and were many that would have benefited in having thier money instead of social security...people that worked anyway. That money only grew a little over 3% and so you needed to beat that number to have more and of course if you died...you would still have something. What also is not discussed is the extra 6% (or is it 6.5% today) the company paid in addition that might have went toward your salary or at least some. Then independent workers pay that 12-13% in total and so it is much easier for them to come out ahead.

Course being responsible for yourself makes it less likely to be dependent on the blob and a more independent voter. Too many people trying to buy votes as well as enrich themselves in the process. Anyone can see what I said about soc. You just take all you paid forth in social security and let each year grow until your retirement date and see if 4% or more beats your number. You will have a sum that can be used if desired for an annuity or just assuming some growth of 6% and pulling out the monthly allowance to duplicate the soc number in payment and "still" have the lump sum. Part of soc payouts is dependent on all those that contribute and then die before getting anything. Redistribution of anything rarely helps the contributors as much as those that rarely contribute.

See I'm fairly liberal but I get tired of the politicians pandering to the average person saying that the middle class needs a tax break. Its BS because most middle class folks don't pay that much in Federal Income Taxes.

The point I was trying to make is that the original post said that the Federal Government was spending $17,000 per person. I'm sure there are things I would cut if I scrutinized the budget, but even if it were $12K or $13K a person, the vast majority of the tax payers aren't paying for the programs they perceive to be driving the deficit. A Family of 4 with an estimated income of $100,000 would pay about $4,500 in federal income tax and $7,600 in SS/Med. While you may think you could do better without SS, I'm not sure anyone would be willing to give up their Medicare.