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The chasm for me is all the terrible suffering in the world, especially the suffering of children. How can there be any purpose to it or faith in spite of it?
I have to believe many others are right there with you. However, for any that are open to the possibilities of the bible, all the books of the bible in the NT are generally agreed to have been written between 60 and 100 A.D. when some eye witnesses were still alive and certainly others one generation removed. Jews told the story of the Torah for hundreds of years and so in addition to various texts, there also is word by mouth. Remarkably the Torah had consistency over those years even though it was spread by mouth is the understanding I have. Even towards the end of the bible in John we have a declaration that the world could not contain enough books to tell all that Jesus did. Jesus dies sometime around 29 A.D. (33-4) Titus finished what his father Vespasian started in the destruction of the temple in 69 A.D. which was in the generation Jesus mentioned in Matthew since generations was considered 40 years. The eyewitness account was written by Flavious Josephus (sp?) a first century “Jewish” general. The Arch of Titus in Rome celebrates this victory. So there are a few things to give credence to the bible even without the 11 apostles choosing to die in horrible fashion.

It mentions in the bible that the poor will “always” be with us. It doesn’t suggest that this is solely a response by humanities indifference, but naturally that would be a reason many would accept. Still, for any that believe in Christ or the bible it they need look no farther than Christ “choosing” to endure the immense suffering he did. Throughout history suffering has been a constant in Christianity. Still, I can’t explain why suffering is allowed anymore than anything bad happening to us. We have freedom of choice might be as good of an answer as any why some are suffering…
 
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The chasm for me is all the terrible suffering in the world, especially the suffering of children. How can there be any purpose to it or faith in spite of it?

You know that is a difficult question. But, there are lots of answers to that question all over the web if you really want an answer. There are hundreds of books on the subject too. Alot of people choose to ignore these answers, as they are not perfect, or they really just want an excuse to continue to ignore God. Can't speak for you, but answers are out there if you want them.

One answer is with our free will... where WE chose separation from God and His perfection in the beginning in the garden of eden. This choice of ours resulted in us living in this imperfect & evil world with all kinds of tragedy.

Luckily for us if we believe in Christ, repent and follow Him, he reconsiles us back to God & His perfection for eternity.
 
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I have to believe many others are right there with you. However, for any that are open to the possibilities of the bible, all the books of the bible in the NT are generally agreed to have been written between 60 and 100 A.D. when some eye witnesses were still alive and certainly others one generation removed. Jews told the story of the Torah for hundreds of years and so in addition to various texts, there also is word by mouth. Remarkably the Torah had consistency over those years even though it was spread by mouth is the understanding I have. Even towards the end of the bible in John we have a declaration that the world could not contain enough books to tell all that Jesus did. Jesus dies sometime around 29 A.D. (33-4) Titus finished what his father Vespasian started in the destruction of the temple in 69 A.D. which was in the generation Jesus mentioned in Matthew since generations was considered 40 years. The eyewitness account was written by Flavious Josephus (sp?) a first century “Jewish” general. The Arch of Titus in Rome celebrates this victory. So there are a few things to give credence to the bible even without the 11 apostles choosing to die in horrible fashion.

It mentions in the bible that the poor will “always” be with us. It doesn’t suggest that this is solely a response by humanities indifference, but naturally that would be a reason many would accept. Still, for any that believe in Christ or the bible it they need look no farther than Christ “choosing” to endure the immense suffering he did. Throughout history suffering has been a constant in Christianity. Still, I can’t explain why suffering is allowed anymore than anything bad happening to us. We have freedom of choice might be as good of an answer as any why some are suffering…
I know you are sincere, and I respect that, but that Christ had to endure immense suffering makes no sense. Couldn't God simply have said, 'sure, people are rotten, but I will forgive them anyway -- because they are just people and that is how I designed them.'
 
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One answer is with our free will... where WE chose separation from God and His perfection in the beginning in the garden of eden. This choice of ours resulted in us living in this imperfect & evil world with all kinds of tragedy.
Little children do not have such a choice.
 
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I know you are sincere, and I respect that, but that Christ had to endure immense suffering makes no sense. Couldn't God simply have said, 'sure, people are rotten, but I will forgive them anyway -- because they are just people and that is how I designed them.'
I understand what you are saying and "if" it could be answered it would probably take longer than I could provide…although I’m looking for excuses to delay this estate trust I need to finish. 😉 You could pose the question with different faces…like why do bad things happen to good people…or a whole list of things where it seems that if “God” is so powerful…why does He allow these injustices? Why doesn’t He just get rid of horrible things and again he didn’t do it with himself. I don’t know if this helps at all and again it won’t make sense to those that already do not believe, but here goes a bit…

The first family for those believers is Adam and “woman”. It was written that ALL was good until “woman” sought knowledge in opposition of God. That sin resulted in a name change to Eve. Name changes many times reflect a significant event…(like when Jesus was about to go to Jerusalem and asked His disciples who they thought he was and only Peter answered correctly).

According to Christians the first family flopped and were not able to meet the standards expected by God. Some believe in prefiguration where Jesus accomplished what Adam couldn’t and Mary said yes to all the things Eve said no. Attention to detail will note that Jesus refers to Mary as “woman” rather than Mary indicating she was without sin... In the bible there was the tempting of the devil towards Jesus where the devil wants Jesus to prove himself, but he doesn’t desire to prove the existence of God through his miracles as to “test” Him. Quite often we hear the word Trinity, which appears in the bible right alongside purgatory 😉 Essentially there are three persons and Jesus is the second person fully capable of choosing to not suffer and yet knowing what awaited him asked His father if this “cup” of suffering could pass. Essentially we are seeing the reenactment of the Passover that Scott Hahn writes about in “The Fourth Cup”. Apparently, even the son of God was not immune to suffering as we all know that cup was not allowed to be passed.

None of the above will make sense to many. I fully understand that. To those that do believe, there is an understanding that when bad things happen, it brings many closer to God. There are many things I don’t understand…many inequities that we all wish were not so. Some may wonder why “if” God exists…why doesn’t He make everyone just believe in Him? Why does He allow humanity choices instead of just making everything great? I have two sisters that are agnostic and I myself battled those thoughts for many years. I too have had some tough spots and found reading some books to help me bring together some things. Still, your thoughts are shared by many.
 
I understand what you are saying and "if" it could be answered it would probably take longer than I could provide…although I’m looking for excuses to delay this estate trust I need to finish. 😉 You could pose the question with different faces…like why do bad things happen to good people…or a whole list of things where it seems that if “God” is so powerful…why does He allow these injustices? Why doesn’t He just get rid of horrible things and again he didn’t do it with himself. I don’t know if this helps at all and again it won’t make sense to those that already do not believe, but here goes a bit…

The first family for those believers is Adam and “woman”. It was written that ALL was good until “woman” sought knowledge in opposition of God. That sin resulted in a name change to Eve. Name changes many times reflect a significant event…(like when Jesus was about to go to Jerusalem and asked His disciples who they thought he was and only Peter answered correctly).

According to Christians the first family flopped and were not able to meet the standards expected by God. Some believe in prefiguration where Jesus accomplished what Adam couldn’t and Mary said yes to all the things Eve said no. Attention to detail will note that Jesus refers to Mary as “woman” rather than Mary indicating she was without sin... In the bible there was the tempting of the devil towards Jesus where the devil wants Jesus to prove himself, but he doesn’t desire to prove the existence of God through his miracles as to “test” Him. Quite often we hear the word Trinity, which appears in the bible right alongside purgatory 😉 Essentially there are three persons and Jesus is the second person fully capable of choosing to not suffer and yet knowing what awaited him asked His father if this “cup” of suffering could pass. Essentially we are seeing the reenactment of the Passover that Scott Hahn writes about in “The Fourth Cup”. Apparently, even the son of God was not immune to suffering as we all know that cup was not allowed to be passed.

None of the above will make sense to many. I fully understand that. To those that do believe, there is an understanding that when bad things happen, it brings many closer to God. There are many things I don’t understand…many inequities that we all wish were not so. Some may wonder why “if” God exists…why doesn’t He make everyone just believe in Him? Why does He allow humanity choices instead of just making everything great? I have two sisters that are agnostic and I myself battled those thoughts for many years. I too have had some tough spots and found reading some books to help me bring together some things. Still, your thoughts are shared by many.
I don’t want to get into theological disagreements with you, because I agree with almost everything you said. However, Jesus did not call Mary “woman” because she was without sin. Mary was a woman blessed by God, but that doesn’t make her sinless. She died just like all mortals do and required assistance in her older years.

Jesus refers to Mary as “woman” multiple times including in John 19:26-27:

26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother “Dear woman, here is your son,” 27 and to the disciple “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.

What Jesus is saying here is that Mary is his earthly mother and the one who bore him, but she is a woman blessed by God who is a human just like any other. She is not sinless. Jesus is the only person to ever walk the earth who was sinless - he is God incarnate. If you say Mary is sinless she is then on the same level as God, which is not biblical.

Also, Matthew 12:46-50:

46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside, waiting to speak to you.”
48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother”.

Jesus is showing his divinity in these passages. Mary was a human vessel to allow Jesus to be incarnated into the world. In that regard she was blessed by God. Still, she was a human mortal and was definitely not sinless.
 
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Adam & Eve chose separation from God for ALL mankind, long ago.

Plenty of books & writings on the subject, if you're really interested... check one out.
Does not seem like a reasonable or just system - consigning millions of children and others to horrible suffering because those two rookies made a bad choice. I bet you would agree with that.

Moreover, does that mean earthquakes, famines, fires and countless other mechanisms of suffering would not have happened if A & E had made the right choice?
 
Actually some interesting conversation going on in this thread. Church, and religion by extension, have always been tough for me.

I grew up Catholic. Went to a Catholic school through 6th grade until my family moved. Church on Monday, Wednesday and Friday and then I went with my family every weekend.

I stopped going when the pedophilia scandal hit. It was beyond appalling. I was already jaded since women couldn’t become priests and priests are supposed to be celibate but Catholics are supposed to have large families? Just hypocrisy at every corner.

Mega churches are a scourge as well. The private jets and huge mansions while they do little to ease the suffering of people who truly need help.

I believe in a higher power; I can’t believe you’re born, you live, and then you die and that’s it. But I struggle with organized religion much of the time, mainly because most religion seems to judge and admonish rather than embrace.
 
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I don’t want to get into theological disagreements with you, because I agree with almost everything you said. However, Jesus did not call Mary “woman” because she was without sin. Mary was a woman blessed by God, but that doesn’t make her sinless. She died just like all mortals do and required assistance in her older years.

Jesus refers to Mary as “woman” multiple times including in John 19:26-27:

26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother “Dear woman, here is your son,” 27 and to the disciple “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.

What Jesus is saying here is that Mary is his earthly mother and the one who bore him, but she is a woman blessed by God who is a human just like any other. She is not sinless. Jesus is the only person to ever walk the earth who was sinless - he is God incarnate. If you say Mary is sinless she is then on the same level as God, which is not biblical.

Also, Matthew 12:46-50:

46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside, waiting to speak to you.”
48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother”.

Jesus is showing his divinity in these passages. Mary was a human vessel to allow Jesus to be incarnated into the world. In that regard she was blessed by God. Still, she was a human mortal and was definitely not sinless.
I know exactly where you are coming from and your understandings would be in alignment with many friends I have, as well as a minister that just retired from a large church that I have a lot of respect. I have a different understanding, but what I fear is that someone will point to different understandings as a means of saying there is so much contradiction between denominations or understandings that none of this can be true. However, on the really important things there is agreement. My understandings were like yours for most of my life and those understandings are pretty well based in Central Indiana.

I think we can agree that Mary was the Arc of the new covenant. Those that are believers understand the Arc was covered in pure gold and contained God’s word. I don’t think there are disagreements there. Understand everything I write will be of the perspective that believers might have. I don’t expect those that are not there to understand any of the following. Mary was described in Luke as “"full of grace, found favor with God" , "most blessed among women"

Lk 1:28. 30 - angel: "full of grace, found favor with God"
Lk 1:42 - Elizabeth: "most blessed among women"
Lk 1:48 - Mary: "all generations will call me blessed"

We also agree that Mary was the mother of Jesus as noted below.

Lk 1:43 - Elizabeth call her "mother of my Lord"=God Mt 1:23 - virgin bear a son, Emmanuel = "God is with us"
Lk 1:35 - child born will be called holy, the Son of God
Gal 4:4 - God sent his Son, born of a woman

It is reasonable to reflect on the angel’s comment on Mary being full of grace, found favor with God. Some think she was a vessel and little more, while others think she was much more. Would the mother of Christ…that was chosen and prophesized be impure…unlike the first Arc? The first Arc would be taken into battle and as the story goes would turn the tide to victory when raised. The Arc of the New Covenant (Mary) is also referenced in battle in Revelations as the Arc in heaven…the woman clothed with the sun that in Rev 12:17 the dragon waged war with the “womans” offspring…the offspring describe at the cross when Jesus stated to John that Mary was the mother of Christians and for him to take care of her. Jesus and John both knew she was not John’s mother and there were no children to leave Mary’s well being to…else it would make sense to leave Mary to one of the children instead of John. There is no word for cousin in the bible and so brethren is used for cousin. We know of such instance where I think it was Mary the wife of Cleopas (Clophas) who was a sister in law to Mary and her sons were cousins (James & Joses )by marriage to Jesus.

In the beginning (Genesis) the “woman” is mentioned. “I will put enmity between you and the “woman”,
and between your seed and her seed;
he shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel.” and then at the end of the bible in revelations the “woman” is referenced again angering the dragon. In which the dragon would wager war with her offspring or us.

Rest assured that when you hear the song “Mary, did you know?”…she did. We know not only due to the immaculate conception that she was blessed among all women, but that she also knew Jesus was more than a man. In the wedding of Cana where so many were drunk and having a good time that the wine was running short, the first recorded miracle took place. Jesus didn’t want to do that. He stated his time had not yet come (or be revealed). However, having his finger on the 10 commandments he was fully aware of honoring his mother and so He did her will. Even 600 years later Mohammed thought higher of Mary than his own daughter Fatima. One of the things that an eye can see is that during a time when woman aspired to be as high as a second class citizens, Mary was reverend above all the others outside of Jesus. Much of what I got to see were from the twelfth century on in Rome, but did go underground to see a 4th century church of St Clement. I think it was in 397 A.D. when the NT was formed.
I know exactly where you are coming from and your understandings would be in alignment with many friends I have, as well as a minister that just retired from a large church that I have a lot of respect. I have a different understanding, but what I fear is that someone will point to different understandings as a means of saying there is so much contradiction between denominations or understandings that none of this can be true. However, on the really important things there is agreement. My understandings were like yours for most of my life and those understandings are pretty well based in Central Indiana.


Anyway, none of this is to suggest your understandings are in error…just that I have a different understanding. I’m sure you are a much better Christian than I am and in no way is there any attempt to disparage you and your considerations...I'm only sharing a different opinion. In many locations in the world there are stated relics of historical religious figures. Those relics bring in a lot of money to the locations claiming to house them, but there is no relic for this woman anyplace and yet we know if someone was able to support a contention for Mary like others...that destination would have a lot of visitors. If there was a scam on relics...Mary's bones would be a great start for a lot of money and yet nobody makes this claim.
 
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Actually some interesting conversation going on in this thread. Church, and religion by extension, have always been tough for me.

I grew up Catholic. Went to a Catholic school through 6th grade until my family moved. Church on Monday, Wednesday and Friday and then I went with my family every weekend.

I stopped going when the pedophilia scandal hit. It was beyond appalling. I was already jaded since women couldn’t become priests and priests are supposed to be celibate but Catholics are supposed to have large families? Just hypocrisy at every corner.

Mega churches are a scourge as well. The private jets and huge mansions while they do little to ease the suffering of people who truly need help.

I believe in a higher power; I can’t believe you’re born, you live, and then you die and that’s it. But I struggle with organized religion much of the time, mainly because most religion seems to judge and admonish rather than embrace.
The pedophilia was bad, just as it was for Alfred Kinsey or the many teachers that did the same. I think a lot of people were turned off by it. I don't have an answer for moving some of these priests around other than to hope it didn't happen again...which it did! As far as women priests I think it goes back to Jesus not picking any women and he certainly had a case for a good one in Mary...whether described as a vessel or not. Women were orators though as they were there at the tomb announcing He was not there. I guess you could say that the Church tried to maintain the approach Jesus had chosen...if for no other reason.

Here is an interesting tidbit. My original flight to Rome was changed three times after buying tickets in months before...even changing the departion date. In the process since Kim has kept her last name the computer reassigned our seating and we were not together on any flight. Once informed I quickly altered what I could which was all the legs but the long one from Rome to Philly. Someone had a ticket between Kim and I and he was on an aisle like me. I decided I would approach this person to see if he would change seats with me since we were both on the aisle. Once boarded I approached him an he complied without qualm. During the flight, I couldn't help but notice he was underlining and highlighting this book he was reading with some intensity. Not being too shy to meet strangers I asked if he was a student. He said he was a student working on his doctorate. I followed up asking what area of study and at which time he said he was a priest doing his doctorate on the "Mass". I wanted to ask some more questions and he was nice enough I'm sure he would have answered, but his previous intensity led me to believe that he was behind to really focused and I didn't want to disturb either. He was heading to the USA to attend a funeral of a friend. Anyway, when he told me that I asked if he was familiar with Scott Hahn and that he had written a book on Mass where Scott believed much of Revelations describes the mass. I think I had that book at one time, but in my ignorance or whatever at the time I was not able to grasp the connections Scott made.
Amazon product ASIN 0385496591
 
Anyway, none of this is to suggest your understandings are in error…just that I have a different understanding. I’m sure you are a much better Christian than I am and in no way is there any attempt to disparage you and your considerations...I'm only sharing a different opinion.
I'm sensing serious doctrinal differences.

Keep it clean, gents.....
 
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I'm sensing serious doctrinal differences.

Keep it clean, gents.....
It's all good. We have a different understanding of Mary's significance,but probably no difference in Jesus. Contrary to what may be surmised I have my own questions on Catholicism and Protestantism...and organized religion as well. Never knew much about Catholicism until Purdue when it seemed like most of my friends were Catholic. Raised Protestant and somewhat anti Catholic.

No denomination produces better Christians than others. Course none of this answers why evil persists. Edmund Burke would suggest that evil prevails when good people allow it...not the exact words, but the brain is watching some ball as well. ;)
 
I was going to stay out of this thread in order to avoid a whole lot of hassle for being too liberal for the "anyone who doesn't agree with me is going to hell" crowd and too Christian for the "God ain't real" crowd.

But this post made me genuinely laugh. Kudos to you.

(I do, too, by the way. It's not always glorious, though... ;))

You might be a great pastor, and this post is a small sample size......thus this might not apply to you.

But in general, this post is an example of why I have a deep distrust in many pastors. A pastor afraid to stand for Christ in public and is worried about how he/she is seen by the public is not worth his/her salt because it comes across as a lack of genuineness & is an example of why some churches grow alot and some churches don't.
 
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You might be a great pastor, and this post is a small sample size......thus this might not apply to you.

But in general, this post is an example of why I have a deep distrust in many pastors. A pastor afraid to stand for Christ in public and is woried about how he/she is seen by the public is not worth his salt because it comes across as a lack of genuineness & is an example of why some churches grow alot and some churches don't.
I may be wrong, and if so forgive me, but I believe pastorjoeboggs is part of the United Methodist Church.
 
Reminds me of a line in 'A River Runs Through It' -

"They were Methodist, a denomination my father always referred to as Baptists who could read"
remember the movie, but can't recall the line. ;)
 
That is the only line I do remember.

Odd thing, I was raised in the Methodist church but I don't recall any discussion about what the 'method' is. Great music, though, from John Wesley and others, which I still listen to occasionally, especially during the holiday season.
 
Reminds me of a line in 'A River Runs Through It' -

"They were Methodist, a denomination my father always referred to as Baptists who could read"
In the past when entering some gathering of friends or family on a few occasions I would announce my arrival by asking if there were any IU fans that could read or write. I followed up stating that was an "or" question to not be so stringent.
 
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You might be a great pastor, and this post is a small sample size......thus this might not apply to you.

But in general, this post is an example of why I have a deep distrust in many pastors. A pastor afraid to stand for Christ in public and is worried about how he/she is seen by the public is not worth his/her salt because it comes across as a lack of genuineness & is an example of why some churches grow alot and some churches don't.

It's not that I'm afraid to stand for Christ so much as it is that I have found that internet discussion boards - particularly this one - are not great places to have nuanced conversations. Having said that, this thread may have developed into a bit of an exception.

Genuineness is probably my top priority in life and ministry. It's a big part of the reason my handle is my full name - kind of hard to be an internet asshole when your name and profession are plastered on everything you post. I try to be who I am - a person who loves Jesus but has an intense love/hate relationship with the church and who frequently has questions and doubts.

I am not, by any means, the conservative evangelical kind of Christian. I don't subscribe to literal readings of the entire Bible (Literalism in its current form is relatively new in the life of the church. The earliest church never, for example, tried to interpret the book of revelation as some kind of literal playbook of the end of time). I also have a hard time with seeing Jesus' death as a grandiose, cosmic Old Testament style sacrifice for my (or anyone else's) sin. There are other views of that, but I'm not sure you'd be interested in that long post. :)

This may sound like a dodge, but I have become convinced that Jesus doesn't need me to "defend" his message. There are a whole lot of people who have left churches because they got sick and tired of the "sales" techniques, or because what they were sold - often some version of "accepting Jesus into your heart will make your life better" - didn't make a difference when their Dad got cancer or because they are tired of the hypocrisy of an allegedly loving and welcoming God who really only loves and welcomes straight, cisgender people. I can't defend that theology. I don't want to, either, as I happen to think it's completely antithetical to who Jesus was and is.

Besides, Jesus doesn't need me to defend him, as I said. Instead, what I've come to believe is that my purpose in life - as a pastor and as a person - is to try to convey to others the core truth that they are created by God, who loves them and who desires for them to flourish; and to work against those thoughts and behaviors - in individuals and systems - that prevent people from flourishing.

SD Boiler is correct, by the way, that I am a Methodist. And for the person who was curious about "the method" - the name Methodist began as an insult. John and Charles Wesley were super intense about their disciplines of prayer and Bible study when they were students at Oxford, so much so that fellow students started calling the two of them and their friends, mockingly, "Methodists." They rolled with it and it stuck.
 
It's not that I'm afraid to stand for Christ so much as it is that I have found that internet discussion boards - particularly this one - are not great places to have nuanced conversations. Having said that, this thread may have developed into a bit of an exception.

Genuineness is probably my top priority in life and ministry. It's a big part of the reason my handle is my full name - kind of hard to be an internet asshole when your name and profession are plastered on everything you post. I try to be who I am - a person who loves Jesus but has an intense love/hate relationship with the church and who frequently has questions and doubts.

I am not, by any means, the conservative evangelical kind of Christian. I don't subscribe to literal readings of the entire Bible (Literalism in its current form is relatively new in the life of the church. The earliest church never, for example, tried to interpret the book of revelation as some kind of literal playbook of the end of time). I also have a hard time with seeing Jesus' death as a grandiose, cosmic Old Testament style sacrifice for my (or anyone else's) sin. There are other views of that, but I'm not sure you'd be interested in that long post. :)

This may sound like a dodge, but I have become convinced that Jesus doesn't need me to "defend" his message. There are a whole lot of people who have left churches because they got sick and tired of the "sales" techniques, or because what they were sold - often some version of "accepting Jesus into your heart will make your life better" - didn't make a difference when their Dad got cancer or because they are tired of the hypocrisy of an allegedly loving and welcoming God who really only loves and welcomes straight, cisgender people. I can't defend that theology. I don't want to, either, as I happen to think it's completely antithetical to who Jesus was and is.

Besides, Jesus doesn't need me to defend him, as I said. Instead, what I've come to believe is that my purpose in life - as a pastor and as a person - is to try to convey to others the core truth that they are created by God, who loves them and who desires for them to flourish; and to work against those thoughts and behaviors - in individuals and systems - that prevent people from flourishing.

SD Boiler is correct, by the way, that I am a Methodist. And for the person who was curious about "the method" - the name Methodist began as an insult. John and Charles Wesley were super intense about their disciplines of prayer and Bible study when they were students at Oxford, so much so that fellow students started calling the two of them and their friends, mockingly, "Methodists." They rolled with it and it stuck.
I will ask this Pastor. If Jesus didn’t die as a sacrifice for the sins of the world (a propitiation for our sins), then why why did he go to cross at all? You’re basically saying it was all in vain then. The life, suffering and death, and resurrection of Christ is a fundamental belief of Christianity itself. Everything in the Old Testament is a precursor for the New Testament.

God the Father says repeatedly that he’s tired of the Jewish ritual sacrifices of animals. That it became insufficient. Jesus literally died on the cross as a replacement for those sacrifices once and for all.

There’s the story of the Israelites being bitten by snakes and dying. Numbers 21:8 says “The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.

This story is a foreshadowing of what the Lord did on the Cross at Cavalry. People look upon the Lord on the cross and are saved from their sins and live eternally.

How can anyone who is learned in the scriptures read Psalm 22:14-18 and not see that David is referring to the Crucifixion:

14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has melted away within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and feet.
17 I can count all my bones; people glare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.
How many centuries was this written prior to the Crucifixion?
 
It's not that I'm afraid to stand for Christ so much as it is that I have found that internet discussion boards - particularly this one - are not great places to have nuanced conversations. Having said that, this thread may have developed into a bit of an exception.

Genuineness is probably my top priority in life and ministry. It's a big part of the reason my handle is my full name - kind of hard to be an internet asshole when your name and profession are plastered on everything you post. I try to be who I am - a person who loves Jesus but has an intense love/hate relationship with the church and who frequently has questions and doubts.

I am not, by any means, the conservative evangelical kind of Christian. I don't subscribe to literal readings of the entire Bible (Literalism in its current form is relatively new in the life of the church. The earliest church never, for example, tried to interpret the book of revelation as some kind of literal playbook of the end of time). I also have a hard time with seeing Jesus' death as a grandiose, cosmic Old Testament style sacrifice for my (or anyone else's) sin. There are other views of that, but I'm not sure you'd be interested in that long post. :)

This may sound like a dodge, but I have become convinced that Jesus doesn't need me to "defend" his message. There are a whole lot of people who have left churches because they got sick and tired of the "sales" techniques, or because what they were sold - often some version of "accepting Jesus into your heart will make your life better" - didn't make a difference when their Dad got cancer or because they are tired of the hypocrisy of an allegedly loving and welcoming God who really only loves and welcomes straight, cisgender people. I can't defend that theology. I don't want to, either, as I happen to think it's completely antithetical to who Jesus was and is.

Besides, Jesus doesn't need me to defend him, as I said. Instead, what I've come to believe is that my purpose in life - as a pastor and as a person - is to try to convey to others the core truth that they are created by God, who loves them and who desires for them to flourish; and to work against those thoughts and behaviors - in individuals and systems - that prevent people from flourishing.

SD Boiler is correct, by the way, that I am a Methodist. And for the person who was curious about "the method" - the name Methodist began as an insult. John and Charles Wesley were super intense about their disciplines of prayer and Bible study when they were students at Oxford, so much so that fellow students started calling the two of them and their friends, mockingly, "Methodists." They rolled with it and it stuck.
I think I understand a bit on the believer and unbeliever side as well. In my experience which no doubt has limitations I have never understood the intent to ridicule believers or those that don't believe. In that experience I generally find that one side doesn't understand the compelling thoughts the other side holds, or the paradigm of which those thoughts originate. Most look with 20th century eyes for their understanding in some aspects and are not open to possiblilities outside their current understanding totally unaware of how limited their understandings may be.

Imagine telling someone hundreds of years ago that day light type conditions would exist due to things we cannot see? People would laugh at them. There exists soooooooo many things that we don't understand today that may be common place knowledge years from now that "may" alter not only our understandings, but change our perspectives as well. Still new understandings are not better just because they are new, but that is for another day. We also know that the sins or vices of thousands of years ago still remain in mankind...and yeah, I'm old enough to still use "man"kind. ;) So, even with advancements in society many things remain the same...and that may be very good???? Although ignorant compared to soooooo many, I enjoy some of the history of Christianity.

Relative to Revelations it is only in the last 150 years or so that it was considered more of a "futuristic" event...and then primarily in the USA. When those things don't happen, they just reset the clock and say something was missing. Along those lines...if you believe that the world was going to end on such and such date...why "polish the brass on a sinking ship"????? So, potential improvements for mankind may get delayed as a result...or events in country may now become an alarm to the final battles. Those are some general understandings going back almost 4 decades ago in Hal Linsey's Late Great Planet Earth. David Currie who used to teach at Moody on end times has a good book that disputes through historical writings as well as scripture the futuristic understandings. Gotta go, almost time to leave for the game.

“Christianity, if false, is of no importance and, if true, is of infinite importance. The one thing it cannot be is moderately important.” - C.S. Lewis
 
It's not that I'm afraid to stand for Christ so much as it is that I have found that internet discussion boards - particularly this one - are not great places to have nuanced conversations. Having said that, this thread may have developed into a bit of an exception.

Genuineness is probably my top priority in life and ministry. It's a big part of the reason my handle is my full name - kind of hard to be an internet asshole when your name and profession are plastered on everything you post. I try to be who I am - a person who loves Jesus but has an intense love/hate relationship with the church and who frequently has questions and doubts.

I am not, by any means, the conservative evangelical kind of Christian. I don't subscribe to literal readings of the entire Bible (Literalism in its current form is relatively new in the life of the church. The earliest church never, for example, tried to interpret the book of revelation as some kind of literal playbook of the end of time). I also have a hard time with seeing Jesus' death as a grandiose, cosmic Old Testament style sacrifice for my (or anyone else's) sin. There are other views of that, but I'm not sure you'd be interested in that long post. :)

This may sound like a dodge, but I have become convinced that Jesus doesn't need me to "defend" his message. There are a whole lot of people who have left churches because they got sick and tired of the "sales" techniques, or because what they were sold - often some version of "accepting Jesus into your heart will make your life better" - didn't make a difference when their Dad got cancer or because they are tired of the hypocrisy of an allegedly loving and welcoming God who really only loves and welcomes straight, cisgender people. I can't defend that theology. I don't want to, either, as I happen to think it's completely antithetical to who Jesus was and is.

Besides, Jesus doesn't need me to defend him, as I said. Instead, what I've come to believe is that my purpose in life - as a pastor and as a person - is to try to convey to others the core truth that they are created by God, who loves them and who desires for them to flourish; and to work against those thoughts and behaviors - in individuals and systems - that prevent people from flourishing.

SD Boiler is correct, by the way, that I am a Methodist. And for the person who was curious about "the method" - the name Methodist began as an insult. John and Charles Wesley were super intense about their disciplines of prayer and Bible study when they were students at Oxford, so much so that fellow students started calling the two of them and their friends, mockingly, "Methodists." They rolled with it and it stuck.

Thank you for your response and confirming my thoughts. Good luck.
 
You know that is a difficult question. But, there are lots of answers to that question all over the web if you really want an answer. There are hundreds of books on the subject too. Alot of people choose to ignore these answers, as they are not perfect, or they really just want an excuse to continue to ignore God. Can't speak for you, but answers are out there if you want them.

One answer is with our free will... where WE chose separation from God and His perfection in the beginning in the garden of eden. This choice of ours resulted in us living in this imperfect & evil world with all kinds of tragedy.

Luckily for us if we believe in Christ, repent and follow Him, he reconsiles us back to God & His perfection for eternity.
Why God allows suffering whether with little children or old, helpless people is the most common reason people us people not believing. My kids used to complain constantly about the troubles in their lives wishing that all of their troubles and problems would go away. I then reminded them that the place their are dreaming about is called Heaven and this place ain't it, If we lived in a faultess, perfect world, people would not need a "Savior". The reason there is evil in the world is to demonstrate how helpless we are without Jesus. The Bible is clear that there will be trouble in this world, especially for those who believe in Him.
 
Why God allows suffering whether with little children or old, helpless people is the most common reason people us people not believing. My kids used to complain constantly about the troubles in their lives wishing that all of their troubles and problems would go away. I then reminded them that the place their are dreaming about is called Heaven and this place ain't it, If we lived in a faultess, perfect world, people would not need a "Savior". The reason there is evil in the world is to demonstrate how helpless we are without Jesus. The Bible is clear that there will be trouble in this world, especially for those who believe in Him.
Are you saying that God made an evil, imperfect world to demonstrate how helpless we are without Jesus - and that explains why children and others have to suffer so terribly??
 
Are you saying that God made an evil, imperfect world to demonstrate how helpless we are without Jesus - and that explains why children and others have to suffer so terribly??
He’s not saying that. God’s creation was perfect until the time of the Original Sin by Adam and Eve.
 
How could the creation have been perfect if contained sin ?
God’s original creation (the Garden of Eden) was perfect and had no sin. Prior to sin entering the world people would not die.

The Serpent (the Devil) tricked Eve into taking fruit from “Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil”, which God had forbidden Adam and Eve to do.

Genesis 3:2-8
2 “The woman (Eve) said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.”

4 “You will not surely die”, the serpent said to the woman. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. (They were afraid because they realized they had done what they were told not to do. This was the Original Sin.)
 
God’s original creation (the Garden of Eden) was perfect and had no sin. Prior to sin entering the world people would not die.

The Serpent (the Devil) tricked Eve into taking fruit from “Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil”, which God had forbidden Adam and Eve to do.

Genesis 3:2-8
2 “The woman (Eve) said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.”

4 “You will not surely die”, the serpent said to the woman. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. (They were afraid because they realized they had done what they were told not to do. This was the Original Sin.)

Do you think that actually happened or is a fable?
 
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Interesting comment in view of the bestselling book, 'Misquoting Jesus'.

Haven't read Ehrman in years. I was just cracking a joke because I was having a discussion about Windows. 3.1/95 best.
 
So, you are a creationist?
I don’t know what you mean by that. I don’t believe the world evolved from nothing over billions of years. Things in nature do not go from a state of disorder to a state of order in general. They do the opposite.
 
I don’t know what you mean by that. I don’t believe the world evolved from nothing over billions of years. Things in nature do not go from a state of disorder to a state of order in general. They do the opposite.

Do you think that Genesis is literally fact? This isn't hard.

Creationist is a well defined term of which you are familiar.
 
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Do you think that Genesis is literally fact? This isn't hard.

Creationist is a well defined term of which you are familiar.
Do I think “God created and heavens and the earth?” Yes. Do I know how? No. Do I know how long it took? No, not for sure. Do I know how long the Earth has existed in its current form? No. Do I think nature evolved after it was created? Sure, it could have.

Sorry, I’m not going to say what I suspect you want me to say.
 
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