Genuinely curious: how would you describe your overarching political views?

[ComradeRedBoilermaker]

Second question: do you formulate your political beliefs around a broad ideological framework, or do you have one or two key issues that inform the rest of your politics?

Example of what I mean: my step dad would answer the first question “libertarian”, but would answer the second question with the “one or two key issues” answer. Gun rights and the second amendment form the entire basis of his politics, everything else is of secondary importance to him, and he chooses people to vote for based only on their positions on guns.

 

[hunkgolden]

Second question: do you formulate your political beliefs around a broad ideological framework, or do you have one or two key issues that inform the rest of your politics?

Example of what I mean: my step dad would answer the first question “libertarian”, but would answer the second question with the “one or two key issues” answer. Gun rights and the second amendment form the entire basis of his politics, everything else is of secondary importance to him, and he chooses people to vote for based only on their positions on guns.

You go first.

 

[ComradeRedBoilermaker]

You go first.

1. Generally anti capitalist, and the works of Marx, Engels, and Lenin provide the foundation for the rest of my political views. Consequently:
2. I formulate my political beliefs around a broad ideological framework instead of a focus on one or two key issues. In my mind all of the political issues of the day are important and at least loosely connected.

 

[ecouch]

Sounds like my favorite fantasy football name.

YourStepDad.

I beat you and you hate me.

 

[kescwi]

1) Ordoliberalism.

2) Rigidity is a weakness, flexibility and adaptability are strengths.

 

[BuilderBob6]

1) Ordoliberalism.

2) Rigidity is a weakness, flexibility and adaptability are strengths.

I freely admit I had to look that up. Tend to agree.

 

[tjreese]

Second question: do you formulate your political beliefs around a broad ideological framework, or do you have one or two key issues that inform the rest of your politics?

Example of what I mean: my step dad would answer the first question “libertarian”, but would answer the second question with the “one or two key issues” answer. Gun rights and the second amendment form the entire basis of his politics, everything else is of secondary importance to him, and he chooses people to vote for based only on their positions on guns.

probably between conservative and Libertarian fiscally mostly and the off center towards Libertarian. Socially, a lean to conservative from Libertarian. I'm pretty independent and capable of doing a lot of things and why the lean to Libertarian on some things. Perhaps because I'm somewhat independent, the smaller the government the more usual my liking. Going braindead...is the rule called the diffusion of productivity? It is where teh pareto principle applies as a result of the square root of those involved. Nine people are in a group and 3 which is 9**.5 power do 80% of the work. Being somewhat capable of doing a lot of things...I understand this, but the other side is...what do you do with the other people...and are they capable and just not applying themselves? What happens to them? I'm not a big fan of group thought...going back to group work in schools as a start.

Now with your father...he understands the second protects all the others and so I understand why he sees it so large. Without it ...is there any assurance for the first to be in place and on and on.

Still, I admit ignorance in so many fields and it is so hard to stay abreast of so many things.

 

[ecouch]

I freely admit I had to look that up. Tend to agree.

You tend agree with authoritarian market steering vs. a free market approach? I mean, the very definition of ordo is self contradictory in the extreme it is willing to go.

Don't reply with a variant of the unfettered free market argument. That isn't what ordo is.

The anti-market folks seem to be coming out the woodwork around here all of the sudden.

 

[ecouch]

For those interested pound out some research regarding Foucault, the Frankfort School, and post-modern influences. Throw in some third way.

You can probably skip the parts where ordo doesn't work in a secular, constitutional, democracy with a bill of rights. They are pretty obvious.

 

[tjreese]

For those interested pound out some research regarding Foucault, the Frankfort School, and post-modern influences. Throw in some third way.

You can probably skip the parts where ordo doesn't work in a secular, constitutional, democracy with a bill of rights. They are pretty obvious.

I'm impressed...I think? Not that I'm aware of "Foucault", but that you mention the Frankfort school and its influences and wonder if that was a typo intended for the Frankfurt School and the dialectic...Hegel, Gramski and Marx? Now I must look up Foucault...

 

[ecouch]

I'm impressed...I think? Not that I'm aware of "Foucault", but that you mention the Frankfort school and its influences and wonder if that was a typo intended for the Frankfurt School and the dialectic...Hegel, Gramski and Marx? Now I must look up Foucault...

Yup. A typo. Now I want a hotdog.

The funnier part is look at #2 of what the ordo is proposing. Total control. Rules are a weakness, opinion is a strength. Thus why ordo is an extreme fringe position. Like I said, I don't know why all of these economic authoritarians are coming out the woodwork. Perhaps the election of that kid in NY? Are they feeling empowered?

 

[tjreese]

Yup. A typo. Now I want a hotdog.

The funnier part is look at #2 of what the ordo is proposing. Total control. Rules are a weakness, opinion is a strength. Thus why ordo is an extreme fringe position. Like I said, I don't know why all of these economic authoritarians are coming out the woodwork. Perhaps the election of that kid in NY? Are they feeling empowered?

Again, I'm impressed in you being aware of the Frankfurt School influence into the USA. I must tell you ...very few know much about it. I think I have casually encountered maybe two times on TV that someone out of the blue mentioned it. I'm aware, but not anywhere as knowledgeable as I should be! Thesis, antithesis and synthesis used to instill new group norms...with strategic manipulation of people in many facets...

 

[BuilderBob6]

You tend agree with authoritarian market steering vs. a free market approach? I mean, the very definition of ordo is self contradictory in the extreme it is willing to go.

Don't reply with a variant of the unfettered free market argument. That isn't what ordo is.

The anti-market folks seem to be coming out the woodwork around here all of the sudden.

Lol. Well, like I said, I had to look it up.

From what I'm reading your description of ordo as authoritarian seems a bit much. It doesn't seem anti free market to me. It puts in some rules to help eliminate some of the downsides to a totally free market like monopolies, damage to the environment and depleting resources, exploiting workers etc. Kinda like the early 20th century. Or like 2008 to a lesser degree.

 

[TopSecretBoiler]

1. independent
2. based on philosophy, mostly. with a premium put on personal liberty.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

1. Independent - fiscally right of center; socially left of center.

2. Broad ideology. Small government at the federal level, power to the states, minimize bureaucratic spending of taxpayer money because it is inherently inefficient; don’t treat people like crap and stay out of their bedrooms/homes.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

Socially and culturally liberal
Fiscal/economic principles lean conservative

Universal healthcare can be done through a single payer system where the government is the sole payer which cuts costs and red tape associated with our healthcare system.

Investment needs to be made in education and infrastructure. A possibility to combine both is possible: allow young people to work for government agencies to rebuild infrastructure (recalling the WPA) under the direction of the Army Corps of Engineers and other companies. These young people would be able to sign up for 1/2/4 year service terms and be able to obtain 2/4/8 year college degrees (associates/bachelors/masters). Even the use of 4 year service plans would allow young people to obtain their masters at the age of 30.

Removal of expensive and wasteful military spending through the closing of military bases that service little to no strategic value (remaining bases would be Ramstein, Ger, Japan, South Korea, Turkey, Italy and creation in Israel and Africa). Extending foreign diplomacy through the expansion of NATO and the restructuring of agreements in the U.N. (one of the moves I agree with the Trump Admin was the shake up of the U.N. Human Rights Council).

Shrinking of government spending and waste through the blueprint shown by Mitch Daniels at our own university.

Remove gerrymandering through Constitutional Amendment and restructuring of the Electoral College to a percentage system rather than a winner take all system (for example if you win 70% is the vote in a state with 10 electoral votes...you get 7).

If these feelings and ideas are way off base, I’d love to hear rebuttals or why they may not be ideal.

Notice that there are things in here that align with Trump. I can be a liberal and agree with the man in some things...and still think he is largely an imbecile when it comes to his mouth. If he removed Twitter, he would remove 75% of the negative press about him and the Democrats would have zero shot to take Congress and find a viable candidate to run against him in 2020.

 

[Boilerscuz]

restructuring of the Electoral College to a percentage system rather than a winner take all system (for example if you win 70% is the vote in a state with 10 electoral votes...you get 7)

Isn't that just your bog standard popular vote then?

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

Isn't that just your bog standard popular vote then?

No. It would force the hand of our presidential nominees to actually go to states and make everyone’s vote count rather than Dems skipping places like Texas and Mississippi and the GOP going to California and New York...rather than what it has become. It takes both systems and combines the two...similar to the standard popular vote but with some of the structural importance of the electoral college, imo.

 

[Boilerscuz]

1. Independent - fiscally right of center; socially left of center.

I used to say fiscally conservative, socially liberal but as Johnnies post above alludes to, socially liberal doesn't mean the same thing it used to. Wasn't that long ago people would understand "socially liberal" in that context to mean repealing Roe v Wade wasn't wanted, gay marriage was fine and the war on drugs was stupid. Since all of those are in the past what does it mean now?

Universal healthcare? No, that kinda violates the fiscally conservative part. Open borders? Ummm, no. Not interested in importing everyone uncritically. Hecklers Veto? Seems to be a hip and trendy thing just to shout down someone you don't want to hear. I really like freedom of speech and think the best thing we can do is let idiots say their spiel in public, no matter how repugnant.

So now I'm fiscally conservative, socially ambiguous.

 

[Boilerscuz]

No. It would force the hand of our presidential nominees to actually go to states and make everyone’s vote count rather than Dems skipping places like Texas and Mississippi and the GOP going to California and New York...rather than what it has become. It takes both systems and combines the two...similar to the standard popular vote but with some of the structural importance of the electoral college, imo.

No really, explain how that is any different than a popular vote. Not trying to be a dick, as a Purdue Engineer I can't possibly see how that would be any different.

States are apportioned electoral votes based on population and you are then apportioning those electoral votes by percentage. It's a popular vote. We can debate why that's good or bad but it is what it is.

 

[Boilerscuz]

If we want to get into how to fix voting my best suggestion is ranked voting. Easy to implement and you don't end up throwing your vote away on someone hopeless which in turn is almost like a vote for the person you like least.

Never will happen since the two parties in charge would have to vote on it.

 

[tjreese]

No really, explain how that is any different than a popular vote. Not trying to be a dick, as a Purdue Engineer I can't possibly see how that would be any different.

States are apportioned electoral votes based on population and you are then apportioning those electoral votes by percentage. It's a popular vote. We can debate why that's good or bad but it is what it is.

exactly...I think he is just changing the mixture. There is probably no mixture that satisfies all, but it sure would help if we knew that all votes were legit and singular in casting even though there is disagreement as to how much of this goes on. Therefore, eliminate the disagreement by ensuring the legitimate vote...and give Indiana 55 electoral votes to ensure the little guy has a larger voice at the table! Better yet...a simpler correction would have all taxes unpaid, but due on April 15 so that people can grasp the enormity and possibly make people more aware and tuned in to all spending so that all government spending is as efficient as possible. This is in concept only since I know this is not a realistic option at this time, but just the thought should give pause to all the waste in the government

 

[BoilerBiker]

If we want to get into how to fix voting my best suggestion is ranked voting. Easy to implement and you don't end up throwing your vote away on someone hopeless which in turn is almost like a vote for the person you like least.

Never will happen since the two parties in charge would have to vote on it.

maine just used a rank choice system in state election
some good, some interesting affects noticed

https://www.pressherald.com/2018/06...changed-perceptions-if-not-election-outcomes/

 

[tjreese]

If we want to get into how to fix voting my best suggestion is ranked voting. Easy to implement and you don't end up throwing your vote away on someone hopeless which in turn is almost like a vote for the person you like least.

Never will happen since the two parties in charge would have to vote on it.

I have no math to support this, but it "appears" to me that the larger the state, the larger the vote and possibly the wider the rank in people. The smaller the state, the closer the ranked scores and the greater the possibility that an infinite to some degree number of people in the ranking could have a larger opportunity to flip 1 and 2 rankings with multiple others listed. This in effect would reduce the effect of smaller states it seems to me and allow even more polarization. Again, there is nothing I can point to for substance that this would happen, but in a general sense this is similar to third parties running...

 

[gr8indoorsman]

Pretty hard to square being a "fiscal conservative" and demanding small government with favoring universal health care and federal investment in education... and then wanting to curb military spending by closing bases, which is a short-sighted and ineffective means of making meaningful cost reductions. Want to reduce military spending? Completely revamp how we do acquisitions. Until you do that, everything else is relatively meaningless and non-committal.

I also don't see the point in retaining the electoral college as a percentage vote. All that does is introduce rounding error into a popular vote.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

Pretty hard to square being a "fiscal conservative" and demanding small government with favoring universal health care and federal investment in education... and then wanting to curb military spending by closing bases, which is a short-sighted and ineffective means of making meaningful cost reductions. Want to reduce military spending? Completely revamp how we do acquisitions. Until you do that, everything else is relatively meaningless and non-committal.

I also don't see the point in retaining the electoral college as a percentage vote. All that does is introduce rounding error into a popular vote.

Voting: I can see where my thoughts would have been seen as a simply ‘popular vote’ but I think allowing the system to work in a similar fashion as it is now and then allowing the votes for all individuals to count makes the most sense.

Can you explain why there can’t be investment in universal healthcare through a single payer system and investing in our educational system while having a smaller government?

 

[gr8indoorsman]

Voting: I can see where my thoughts would have been seen as a simply ‘popular vote’ but I think allowing the system to work in a similar fashion as it is now and then allowing the votes for all individuals to count makes the most sense.

Can you explain why there can’t be investment in universal healthcare through a single payer system and investing in our educational system while having a smaller government?

I'm kind of amazed you somehow think that the government taking over the largest industry in the country would result in smaller government. You'd have government representation at every health care provider in the country; auditors to assess costs; process approvals to determine who is a higher priority patient than someone else; bureaucracy to simply run the entire thing. The government isn't simply going to accept what the existing industry charges, but if they did, can you imagine how much additional waste you could incur?

Personally, I think single-payer is a concept that proponents don't really understand, or they simply don't have that many health concerns they need to deal with. You want to put the same government that's in charge of the VA - around 1500 health care sites and 21,000,000 enrolled patients (note: not everyone, in fact a majority of enrollees do not, receive(s) care through the VA) - and give them 15 times as many patients to manage? Because wow.

The sheer size of these government organization (including the DOD) just lends itself to waste. Let's not create more opportunities for the government to waste taxpayer funds - that's what a "fiscal conservative" believes.

 

[TwinDegrees2]

Second question: do you formulate your political beliefs around a broad ideological framework, or do you have one or two key issues that inform the rest of your politics?

Example of what I mean: my step dad would answer the first question “libertarian”, but would answer the second question with the “one or two key issues” answer. Gun rights and the second amendment form the entire basis of his politics, everything else is of secondary importance to him, and he chooses people to vote for based only on their positions on guns.

I do not believe in abortion as birth control. I'm conservative in most of my values, moderate in some. I don't care if you are gay, straight, black, asian, hispanic as long as you do your job, keep your property up, and don't try to force your values on me. I don't believe in hand out's, but I do believe in hand up's. Don't whine about your situation until you've exhausted every avenue to make it better. Treat me with respect, you'll get the same. You don't need to take your shoes off when you come in, and there's always a beer in the fridge.

 

[SKYDOG]

I do not believe in abortion as birth control. I'm conservative in most of my values, moderate in some. I don't care if you are gay, straight, black, asian, hispanic as long as you do your job, keep your property up, and don't try to force your values on me. I don't believe in hand out's, but I do believe in hand up's. Don't whine about your situation until you've exhausted every avenue to make it better. Treat me with respect, you'll get the same. You don't need to take your shoes off when you come in, and there's always a beer in the fridge.

Where you at, I'll be right over. Lol!

 

[Purdue85]

I'm a pretty simple guy.

1. People need to earn a living.
2. People need to help the disadvantaged.
3. those identified by #2 shouldn't take advantage of #1.
4. Politicians who trot out #2 to take from #1 should be flogged in the public square.
5. government is largely unaccountable.
6. Those who are unaccountable have a deep need to use being unaccountable to retaining power.
7. Don't force your beliefs on me.
8. Forcing me to accept long-recognized aberrations is cause for me to look at you like you're a threat to humankind.
9. What you do is your business, even as it relates to your perversions and peccadilloes.
10. Don't shove "your business" down my throat and in plain view of my kids.
11. Don't use the government to indoctrinate my kids.
12. Using public schools to advance your beliefs is indoctrinating my kids.
13. A free spirit is key to liberty.
14. Centralized government is antithetical to the free spirit.

there's more where that came from, but I'm tired an in need of a shower.

 

[ecouch]

Lol. Well, like I said, I had to look it up.

From what I'm reading your description of ordo as authoritarian seems a bit much. It doesn't seem anti free market to me. It puts in some rules to help eliminate some of the downsides to a totally free market like monopolies, damage to the environment and depleting resources, exploiting workers etc. Kinda like the early 20th century. Or like 2008 to a lesser degree.

Keep reading. Ordo is big into currency manipulation. Weaponized manipulation, as a matter of fact. It is gussied up authoritarianism at its core. Its macro flaws are glaring.

 

[Purdue85]

Keep reading. Ordo is big into currency manipulation. Weaponized manipulation, as a matter of fact. It is gussied up authoritarianism at its core. Its macro flaws are glaring.

For the life of me, I cannot fathom why anyone would want the government to control their lives.

To ANY extent.

no, thanks.

 

[BuilderBob6]

Keep reading. Ordo is big into currency manipulation. Weaponized manipulation, as a matter of fact. It is gussied up authoritarianism at its core. Its macro flaws are glaring.

Are there no flaws to an unrestricted free market?

 

[Purdue85]

Are there no flaws to an unrestricted free market?

We know there are MANY flaws to managed markets by socialists.

No?

 

[ecouch]

Are there no flaws to an unrestricted free market?

You aren't keeping up.

 

[ecouch]

Again, I'm impressed in you being aware of the Frankfurt School influence into the USA. I must tell you ...very few don't know much about it. I think I have casually encountered maybe two times on TV that someone out of the blue mentioned it. I'm aware, but not anywhere as knowledgeable as I should be! Thesis, antithesis and synthesis used to instill new group norms...with strategic manipulation of people in many facets...

If you want to see how far we have fallen, go look at page 1A of the NYT, not the opinion section, calling for the abolition of the 1st amendment. Very scary stuff is going down right now with Democrats.

How scary is this? Democrats are calling for rewriting the First Amendment because they lost an election.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/30/us/politics/first-amendment-conservatives-supreme-court.html

Remember, this isn't opinion, this is "journalism".

 

[kescwi]

Are there no flaws to an unrestricted free market?

He's on a sophist roll, just let him go. If I had to guess, he looked it up as well, this quote from above is telling.

For those interested pound out some research regarding Foucault, the Frankfort School, and post-modern influences. Throw in some third way.

You can probably skip the parts where ordo doesn't work in a secular, constitutional, democracy with a bill of rights. They are pretty obvious.

Aside from the other...stuff...I guess post war Germany is, what, a theocracy, without a constitution, the vote or a bill of rights?

 

[BuilderBob6]

You aren't keeping up.

Why don't you and your ego educate me?

 

[BuilderBob6]

We know there are MANY flaws to managed markets by socialists.

No?

Yep. Didn't say there wasn't.
Is that your final answer?

 

[gr8indoorsman]

I don't care if you are gay, straight, black, asian, hispanic as long as you do your job, keep your property up, and don't try to force your values on me. I don't believe in hand out's, but I do believe in hand up's. Don't whine about your situation until you've exhausted every avenue to make it better. Treat me with respect, you'll get the same.

ah... hahahahahaha. So much contradiction in one post! Sentence after sentence contradicts the one before it!