For all of you people complaining about Painter...

[Boiler Buck]

Take a really good look at the Rivals Top 150 over the past few years.

The OP asked us to look @ the top 150....I did not....I just looked @ the top 50. Here are some of the schools since 2012, I found landing Top 50 kids multiple times.....and if they can -- why not Painter? While the OP is correct on the bluebloods getting their share...if you actually look @ the Top 50 since 2012 you can see there are other schools that join the recruiting party. Let's looks at these others who landed them......

Mississippi State - 4
Washington - 4
Oregon - 4
Xavier - 4
Texas A & M -3
Florida State - 3
California - 3
Providence - 3
Illinois - 3
LSU -3
Okie State - 2
AZ State - 2
Alabama - 2
Oregon State - 2
Miami - 2
Arkansas - 2
St. John -2
Marquette -2
ND - 2
South Carolina - 2
USC - 2

I see Painter has improved his recruiting & I have given him credit for that multiple times on here. Additionally, I think if Painter got more top 50s --- I think he is coach enough to get more out of them, than say some other schools do (IL, ARK, Providence, Miss State for example...).

Still even though I give him credit, I do not turn a blind eye to the fact he could, and should do better recruiting given the Midwest hotbed and proximity to Chicago. To say that certain schools get studs...yes, but to say Purdue could not get better players, is ridiculous when you look at places that do land more top 50's than Purdue does. So the OP really has a flawed premise....even though the other points he made complimenting Painter on are valid.

 

[TC4THREE]

I just did. There is also John Garrett. I listed more talent in a 10-12 year period than Painter has had in 10-12 years. There is also Bruce Parkinson, Jerry Sichting, Bob Ford. Today, all would be listed as 4 or 5 stars. Two Indiana Mr. Basketball on same team. "Star" rating did not exist in the 60's and 70's.

I didn't exist in the 60's or 70's either. Anything from my lifetime?

 

[euchre13]

I just did. There is also John Garrett. I listed more talent in a 10-12 year period than Painter has had in 10-12 years. There is also Bruce Parkinson, Jerry Sichting, Bob Ford. Today, all would be listed as 4 or 5 stars. Two Indiana Mr. Basketball on same team. "Star" rating did not exist in the 60's and 70's.

So those guys were all 4 and 5 stars? How many NCs did they win?

 

[euchre13]

Robbie Hummel was rated top 100. Luther Clay was a McD AA. Who would you prefer having at Purdue? People are setting an imaginary goal of 5 stars when that doesn't tell the whole story.

 

[icewind7]

We are not even discussing about 4 stars because the data is too large. Let's check out 5 stars players' choice in past 3 years. Sorry to disappoint some of you, but here's a list of <stupid> schools that recruit 5 stars players in the past. Is it really that hard? If it's hard for Purdue to recruit elite talent, it will be even harder for these schools.

2016 - Washington, Florida st, Texas, Auburn and Gonzaga
2015 - Louisiana st, California, Miss St, Marquette, UNLV, Florida St, Oregon, Purdue
2014 - SMU, UNLV, Seton Hall.. and so on..

Also, Coach Painter recruits some 4 or 5 stars players too, because he wants them to join. It's not like he doesn't want them. He just loses the battle a lot of times to some stupid schools.

 

[euchre13]

We are not even discussing about 4 stars because the data is too large. Let's check out 5 stars players' choice in past 3 years. Sorry to disappoint some of you, but here's a list of <stupid> schools that recruit 5 stars players in the past. Is it really that hard? If it's hard for Purdue to recruit elite talent, it will be even harder for these schools.

2016 - Washington, Florida st, Texas, Auburn and Gonzaga
2015 - Louisiana st, California, Miss St, Marquette, UNLV, Florida St, Oregon, Purdue
2014 - SMU, UNLV, Seton Hall.. and so on..

Purdue is on there so I'm not sure what your point is. If your point is that because a long list of other schools randomly score 5 stars that Purdue should be doing it regularly, again, tell me why it should happen regularly, and define regularly.

 

[icewind7]

Random? I guess I can stop replying you. So, I came to Purdue and graduated from this school randomly?? There are reasons behind everything.

 

[icewind7]

Having 5 stars playing like Swanigan doesn't guarantee elite 8, final 4, championship chance. It SIMPLY increases the chance of getting there. Please go back to Purdue and study math.

 

[euchre13]

Random? I guess I can stop replying you. So, I came to Purdue and graduated from this school randomly?? There are reasons behind everything.

Individually there are specific reasons, as a group the reasons are random. Each person that went to whatever school they went to went for whatever reason they went. Can that be used to show that because Kid A goes to a certain school because of _________ that this proves this same event should happen at Purdue? That's hopeful at best. But again, your list showed it did happen, with Swanigan. So what was the point of your list

 

[euchre13]

Having 5 stars playing like Swanigan doesn't guarantee elite 8, final 4, championship chance. It SIMPLY increases the chance of getting there. Please go back to Purdue and study math.

I have no idea why you said this or how it relates to anything that is being discussed.

 

[BoiledSteel]

I have no idea why you said this or how it relates to anything that is being discussed.

Because it fits the narrative of the anti-Painter agenda. It's not based on anything other than hate of CMP for whatever reason and shouldn't be taken seriously.

 

[BoiledSteel]

Random? I guess I can stop replying you. So, I came to Purdue and graduated from this school randomly?? There are reasons behind everything.

So wait, you are seriously comparing your reasons for picking a school to that of a basketball player? Really? There are only so many schools that teach at the level Purdue does where many more schools can get players in the the NBA. So your comment is not an apples to apples comparison.

 

[euchre13]

Shaka Smart. Who wouldn't have loved him coming to Purdue. Surely recruits would trip over themselves to come play for him if he was Purdue's coach, right? 1 5 star in 3 years at Texas. Is Purdue an upgrade over Texas? Painter has 1 5 star since Smart has been at Texas as well.

 

[M51]

Don

I didn't exist in the 60's or 70's either. Anything from my lifetime?

How old are you? 10, 15, 20?

You missed out on some great players.

 

[NVBoilerFan]

Robbie Hummel was rated top 100. Luther Clay was a McD AA. Who would you prefer having at Purdue? People are setting an imaginary goal of 5 stars when that doesn't tell the whole story.

I think if you re-ranked players based on how good they ended up by the end of their college career, Hummel, Moore and Johnson would all be 5* players. Kramer, LewJack and Grant would have been mid level 4*.

 

[euchre13]

I think if you re-ranked players based on how good they ended up by the end of their college career, Hummel, Moore and Johnson would all be 5* players. Kramer, LewJack and Grant would have been mid level 4*.

And that's my argument as to why I don't care that Painter doesn't recruit "better". I'll take the results in addition to what I feel is year to year improvement in recruiting. It's not magic

 

[TC4THREE]

Don

How old are you? 10, 15, 20?

You missed out on some great players.

Late 30's.

 

[TC4THREE]

Shaka Smart. Who wouldn't have loved him coming to Purdue. Surely recruits would trip over themselves to come play for him if he was Purdue's coach, right? 1 5 star in 3 years at Texas. Is Purdue an upgrade over Texas? Painter has 1 5 star since Smart has been at Texas as well.

You and your damn facts getting in the way of the story people want to tell................

 

[mathboy]

1) Wisconsin
2) TBD
2) Undefeated



Every coach is paid an insane amount of money to coach and if Painter leaves, the new coach will be paid a bunch of money too, so that argument is moot. Maybe my question to you wasn't clear since you're giving general reasons why you think higher level recruits should come to Purdue. I'll use an analogy for you. I'm a great dude, but I'm still just me. No matter how hard I try I'm not going to be able to date a super model. One may fall in my lap one day because she digs bald dudes, but I'm not out seeking them, because they generally wouldn't be interested in dudes like me. It's the same concept. Purdue doesn't draw super models, and never has.

Purdue is a top 30, or 20, program because we've been fortunate over the past 30 years to have coaches that do a great job of winning with what they have. They develop players but more importantly they develop teams. We're top 30, or 20, because of them, not in spite of them. Kids go where they go because they go where they go. There is this delusional affinity with Purdue that we seem to have where we assume that everyone wants to go here. It's as if you guys think the players would have come here if the coach had just done better recruiting. Has any recruit ever said that? I realize it's almost silly to think a kid would say "I'd go to Purdue but Painter _____". But that is as silly to me as people that just jump to their own conclusion that Painter is the reason for them not coming to Purdue when each and every recruit is different.

You're going to argue about coaches from the 70's? Ok, what star recruits did those coaches get if you can argue they did better, like you claimed one could argue.

I'm "satisfied" with Painter's recruiting because I realize that he's not recruiting to a blue blood. I don't put Purdue in the same class as KU, KY, Duke, NC or even Indiana, because we're not. To expect kids to just come to Purdue because I think they should would be my burden, not Painter's. Nothing about Purdue is a destination school. Their history is "good". Their facilities are average compared to the top programs in the country. There is nothing about Purdue that makes kids fall over themselves to go, unless their offers or Northern Iowa and Depaul.

I have news for people too. This isn't dominos. One piece falling won't suddenly open the flood gates to great recruits. Swanigan coming to Purdue hasn't improved the recruiting. Winning likely won't change it either. Butler went to back to back championship games. Do they draw 5 star recruits (I'm really asking, I don't know but don't recall a single one). The fans have expectations that are based on their fantasies, not on the reality of what they're watching.

Outstanding post! Accurate & realistic. Thanks.

 

[Boiler Buck]

Because it fits the narrative of the anti-Painter agenda. It's not based on anything other than hate of CMP for whatever reason and shouldn't be taken seriously.

You know you can be Pro CMP, and yet still criticize the guy. Lots of excellent top notch people still can make the Best Better...for say not recruiting enough Top 50s or not making in game adjustments quick enough, etc. The way you talk is that if someone criticizes some facet of CMP he/she is buying into the Anti CMP narrative. Well, no that isn't the case....see my post above.

 

[tjreese]

Yet, recruiting is largely based on the coach.

Certainly the coach has an effect
I have no idea the average weighting

 

[mathboy]

The OP asked us to look @ the top 150....I did not....I just looked @ the top 50. Here are some of the schools since 2012, I found landing Top 50 kids multiple times.....and if they can -- why not Painter? While the OP is correct on the bluebloods getting their share...if you actually look @ the Top 50 since 2012 you can see there are other schools that join the recruiting party. Let's looks at these others who landed them......

Mississippi State - 4
Washington - 4
Oregon - 4
Xavier - 4
Texas A & M -3
Florida State - 3
California - 3
Providence - 3
Illinois - 3
LSU -3
Okie State - 2
AZ State - 2
Alabama - 2
Oregon State - 2
Miami - 2
Arkansas - 2
St. John -2
Marquette -2
ND - 2
South Carolina - 2
USC - 2

I see Painter has improved his recruiting & I have given him credit for that multiple times on here. Additionally, I think if Painter got more top 50s --- I think he is coach enough to get more out of them, than say some other schools do (IL, ARK, Providence, Miss State for example...).

Still even though I give him credit, I do not turn a blind eye to the fact he could, and should do better recruiting given the Midwest hotbed and proximity to Chicago. To say that certain schools get studs...yes, but to say Purdue could not get better players, is ridiculous when you look at places that do land more top 50's than Purdue does. So the OP really has a flawed premise....even though the other points he made complimenting Painter on are valid.

Great list of where top 50 kids are going to school. Somehow it doesn't seem to align at first glance with basketball success in terms of ranking. (For the moment, lets set aside NCAAT achievements and just look at how well these schools are playing).

There is some coincidence, but not so much as to say a direct correlation. It seems that it might be important to have the right X&O coach and some good development programs in order to really take advantage of a kid's natural skills coming out of high school. I think this was an important point in the OP. Painter and the Purdue basketball program get a lot more out of their kids, and consequently give more to those kids in terms of development, than many other schools.

 

[Boiler Buck]

I think this was an important point in the OP. Painter and the Purdue basketball program get a lot more out of their kids, and consequently give more to those kids in terms of development, than many other schools.

I agreed with this and made the same point above.

Painter has shown time and again he can improve guys.....even improve top 50 guys.....that if he did get them, he would improve them too....still I wish he would get more of them. Like I said I agree with the OP on all the good points he made, but the recruiting deal.

 

[tjreese]

With respect to your point on Butler, it would be crazy to suggest that their success in the NCAA tournament did not improve or impact their recruiting significantly.

Just today, there was an update on their present state of recruiting...
"With an open weekend, Holtmann was in Bloomington on Friday to see Bloomington North’s Musa Jallow (ranked 75th by Rivals.com) and at O’Fallon, Ill., on Saturday to see Torrence Watson of St. Louis (93rd), Tim Finke of Champaign, Ill. (77th) and Ayo Dosunmu of Chicago (22nd).

Finke, whose brother Michael plays for Illinois, is the most recent prospect to be offered a Butler scholarship. Also holding offers are Dosunmu, Jallow, Tindley’s Eric Hunter (78th), Watson, McCutcheon’s Robert Phinisee (134th) and Jordan Lathon (148th) of Grandview, Mo.

Dwayne Cohill, a 6-4 guard from Cleveland (66th), has a Feb. 19 visit planned to Butler.

One Butler signee, 6-7 wing Christian David, is averaging 12 points, five rebounds and seven assists for Vermont Academy. He is ranked 93rd in the 2017 class by Rivals."

Seems as if Butler not only has benefited from their national success, but that they are taking full advantage of it as well (and, quite frankly, it would have been even more visible had Stevens not left)...something Purdue/Painter failed to do when it had the opportunity following the Baby Boilers class.

Some increase in recruiting is due to the Big East just as we shall see Rutgers do down the road. Some reasons are coaches, majors,location,legecy,playing time,playing style,girlfriend,family,expectation...lots of things. Coaches...especially assistants do have an effect,but how much...none of us know.

 

[tjreese]

The OP asked us to look @ the top 150....I did not....I just looked @ the top 50. Here are some of the schools since 2012, I found landing Top 50 kids multiple times.....and if they can -- why not Painter? While the OP is correct on the bluebloods getting their share...if you actually look @ the Top 50 since 2012 you can see there are other schools that join the recruiting party. Let's looks at these others who landed them......

Mississippi State - 4
Washington - 4
Oregon - 4
Xavier - 4
Texas A & M -3
Florida State - 3
California - 3
Providence - 3
Illinois - 3
LSU -3
Okie State - 2
AZ State - 2
Alabama - 2
Oregon State - 2
Miami - 2
Arkansas - 2
St. John -2
Marquette -2
ND - 2
South Carolina - 2
USC - 2

I see Painter has improved his recruiting & I have given him credit for that multiple times on here. Additionally, I think if Painter got more top 50s --- I think he is coach enough to get more out of them, than say some other schools do (IL, ARK, Providence, Miss State for example...).

Still even though I give him credit, I do not turn a blind eye to the fact he could, and should do better recruiting given the Midwest hotbed and proximity to Chicago. To say that certain schools get studs...yes, but to say Purdue could not get better players, is ridiculous when you look at places that do land more top 50's than Purdue does. So the OP really has a flawed premise....even though the other points he made complimenting Painter on are valid.

The problem with all of this is forgetting that some opinion of who is top 50 may be in error and have a much larger standard error of prediction due to a variety of factors. No question that GENERALLY the higher a kid is ranked has SOME positive correlation with his college play as an individual to a degree, but also confounded within the team. Player rankings do not address many elements of basketball.

I wish Purdue did better recruiting. I believe that Purdue has already done much better than before the budget increase. Some of that is on the coaches...some on hype...others a whole host of reasons.

 

[icewind7]

Please don't ignore 1 fact. Coach Painter himself wants those kids too but miss. Please don't pretend that he doesn't want them and don't pursue those kids and rather have some 3 stars players instead. My challenge is.. how can we improve the success rate of recruiting?

 

[nagemj02]

What coach has recruited at a higher level at Purdue than Painter has? I'll apologize in advance but I'll need more than just naming names here.

You don't really need more than naming names. Listing a coach and their recruits is enough to tell the story.

Keady, Schaus, and King could all be considered better recruiters, given the level of recruits they brought in vs. the amount of time they were the head coach.

Keady's top recruits were probably Glenn Robinson (McD's AA), Russell Cross (McD's AA MVP), Mike Robinson (McD's AA), Troy Lewis (co-Indiana Mr. Basketball), Woody Austin (Indiana Mr. Basketball), Melvin McCants, Everette Stephens, Cuonzo Martin, and Carl Landry (JC All-American).

Some of Schaus' top recruits included Eugene Parker (RIP), Walter Jordan, Wayne Walls, Joe Barry Carroll, and Jerry Sichting.

Some of King's top recruits included Rick Mount, Larry Weatherford, George Faerber, Bob Ford, William Franklin, Frank Kendrick, and John Garrett.

Painter's best recruits (top 100 type recruits) have been Caleb Swanigan (McD's AA), E'Twaun Moore, JaJuan Johnson, Terone Johnson, Kendall Stephens, Scott Martin, Robbie Hummel, Isaac Haas, A.J. Hammons, Bryson Scott, Carsen Edwards, Keaton Grant, Ronnie Johnson, Rapheal Davis, Jay Simpson, and D.J. Byrd.

One could definitely make a case for a case Keady (more McD's AA's), as well as Schaus and King.

 

[DG10]

Certainly the coach has an effect
I have no idea the average weighting

Suffice to say that it has the greatest amount of weighting in the ultimate decision in virtually every case.

 

[nagemj02]

So those guys were all 4 and 5 stars? How many NCs did they win?

They made it to a national title game under George King. Under Lee Rose, Purdue made it to a Final Four. In more years than both King and Rose combined as Purdue's head coaches, the Boilers have made it as far as...two Sweet Sixteens under Painter.

 

[euchre13]

They made it to a national title game under George King. Under Lee Rose, Purdue made it to a Final Four. In more years than both King and Rose combined as Purdue's head coaches, the Boilers have made it as far as...two Sweet Sixteens under Painter.

I am 45 freaking years old and you're citing evidence from before I was born. I make fun of IU funs that glorify a title in 1987, before any of the students or players were even thought about but you're going back to the 60s to show how things used to be. Damn kids.

We'll just have to agree to disagree I suppose.

 

[TC4THREE]

Suffice to say that it has the greatest amount of weighting in the ultimate decision in virtually every case.

There is no way you can make that statement. The factors vary greatly for each and every recruit.

 

[euchre13]

There is no way you can make that statement. The factors vary greatly for each and every recruit.

#alternativefacts

 

[TC4THREE]

I am 45 freaking years old and you're citing evidence from before I was born. I make fun of IU funs that glorify a title in 1987, before any of the students or players were even thought about but you're going back to the 60s to show how things used to be. Damn kids.

We'll just have to agree to disagree I suppose.

I think there is a very large portion of our fan base that's significantly out of touch with the world. Several still think every kid in Indiana grows up dreaming of playing for IU or Purdue and we have some sort of special advantage in recruiting that kid like we did in the 70's when kids had access to only the local teams on the free State Farm Network and we didn't have this new-fangled Big Ten Network that charges us a few bucks a month now and still rips us off of an exhibition and a low-level nonconference game once a year.

 

[euchre13]

I think there is a very large portion of our fan base that's significantly out of touch with the world. Several still think every kid in Indiana grows up dreaming of playing for IU or Purdue and we have some sort of special advantage in recruiting that kid like we did in the 70's when kids had access to only the local teams on the free State Farm Network and we didn't have this new-fangled Big Ten Network that charges us a few bucks a month now and still rips us off of an exhibition and a low-level nonconference game once a year.

Everytime I see a recruit proclaim their new offer on twitter: "I am blessed to receive my 18th scholarship from the University of Purdue" I cringe.... It's a popularity contest. Kids want people to know they are in demand. How dare Painter not be able to crack this code with kids. He's simply out of touch.

 

[tjreese]

do you think it is the coach...the asst coaches or playing style that you believe? Some are confounded inside the other and hard to discern. Also, whatever it is in whichever coaches you believe to be most important are you saying it makes up over 50% of all the variables or just more important than any single variable, because those are truly different views?

I honestly have no feel...

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Shaka Smart. Who wouldn't have loved him coming to Purdue. Surely recruits would trip over themselves to come play for him if he was Purdue's coach, right? 1 5 star in 3 years at Texas. Is Purdue an upgrade over Texas? Painter has 1 5 star since Smart has been at Texas as well.

Shaka hasn't even been there 2 full years yet, and really only 1 full recruiting cycle.

 

[euchre13]

Shaka hasn't even been there 2 full years yet, and really only 1 full recruiting cycle.

The presumption is that Painter is the problem though. What coach realistically coming into Purdue would carry more momentum with them than Shaka? You don't think Texas fans expected immediate returns on him coming there? 1 5 star in 3 years when Shaka was the "bees knees"? This board would already be calling for his dismissal.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

The presumption is that Painter is the problem though. What coach realistically coming into Purdue would carry more momentum with them than Shaka? You don't think Texas fans expected immediate returns on him coming there? 1 5 star in 3 years when Shaka was the "bees knees"? This board would already be calling for his dismissal.

Reread my post...

 

[DG10]

The presumption is that Painter is the problem though. What coach realistically coming into Purdue would carry more momentum with them than Shaka? You don't think Texas fans expected immediate returns on him coming there? 1 5 star in 3 years when Shaka was the "bees knees"? This board would already be calling for his dismissal.

Never have I seen the assertion made that Painter is THE problem...a contributing factor for certain, and arguably the greatest contributing factor, but, I don't recall ever seeing anyone saying that HE was THE problem...that is nothing more than you (and/or others) spinning something...as you suggested elsewhere in the thread...#alternativefacts.

 

[TC4THREE]

Never have I seen the assertion made that Painter is THE problem...a contributing factor for certain, and arguably the greatest contributing factor, but, I don't recall ever seeing anyone saying that HE was THE problem...that is nothing more than you (and/or others) spinning something...as you suggested elsewhere in the thread...#alternativefacts.

If you are labeling something as the greatest contributing factor to a problem you are essentially saying that it is the problem as that would be the first thing you would look to change in addressing the problem.