Football recruiting at a “Private” school

[Hardg]

This is just food for thought and discussion.

Years ago, there was an article I believe in SI that discussed how hard it was for schools that do not have a state or city in their name to recruit in football. Notre Dame was clearly mentioned as the exception. The reasoning behind that was those schools were perceived nationally as being private schools with higher academic standards making them not attractive to most kids just interested in making football a career.

In looking at the current top 25, Wake Forest at #16 is the highest in that category. They are not exactly a perennial power. Clemson has certainly overcome that and Auburn has won a championship but the article I read was before those successes.

Obviously, it doesn’t affect basketball as much, Duke being proof of that but basketball only needs 5 players in the line up while football needs 22.

Does Purdue suffer from a perception in recruiting nationally?

 

[bonefish1]

This is just food for thought and discussion.

Years ago, there was an article I believe in SI that discussed how hard it was for schools that do not have a state or city in their name to recruit in football. Notre Dame was clearly mentioned as the exception. The reasoning behind that was those schools were perceived nationally as being private schools with higher academic standards making them not attractive to most kids just interested in making football a career.

In looking at the current top 25, Wake Forest at #16 is the highest in that category. They are not exactly a perennial power. Clemson has certainly overcome that and Auburn has won a championship but the article I read was before those successes.

Obviously, it doesn’t affect basketball as much, Duke being proof of that but basketball only needs 5 players in the line up while football needs 22.

Does Purdue suffer from a perception in recruiting nationally?

the name is irrelevant. From a recruiting perspective, the name of the school has zero impact on a recruits decision.
It’s all about the coaching staff and program.

 

[Hardg]

the name is irrelevant. From a recruiting perspective, the name of the school has zero impact on a recruits decision.
It’s all about the coaching staff and program.

Okay. What source are you using to back up your proclamation that it doesn’t matter? Not saying you are wrong. There is some evidence that schools without a city or state in their name are less successful in football. Have you surveyed recruits to come up with your point?

 

[BBG]

Okay. What source are you using to back up your proclamation that it doesn’t matter? Not saying you are wrong. There is some evidence that schools without a city or state in their name are less successful in football. Have to surveyed recruits to come up with your point?

The name on the jersey 100% is part of it. If everything was considered equal between two schools (playing time, TV exposure, etc) and say we were battling Alabama you can bet that recruit would pick Bama over us. There is way too much evidence both in the history of our recruiting and all over the country to support it.

Thing you have to understand about lenny is he is so used to being wrong, he gets blinded by it. He's not a bad guy though.

 

[Hardg]

The name on the jersey 100% is part of it. If everything was considered equal between two schools (playing time, TV exposure, etc) and say we were battling Alabama you can bet that recruit would pick Bama over us. There is way too much evidence both in the history of our recruiting and all over the country to support it.

Thing you have to understand about lenny is he is so used to being wrong, he gets blinded by it. He's not a bad guy though.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Proclamations are not opinions. If his response was “in my opinion, I do not think it matters and here’s why”, I’m fine with that. I lean toward it mattering but really posted it for others thoughts.

 

[bonefish1]

Okay. What source are you using to back up your proclamation that it doesn’t matter? Not saying you are wrong. There is some evidence that schools without a city or state in their name are less successful in football. Have you surveyed recruits to come up with your point?

You said it yourself.
Clemson
Auburn
Stanford
Baylor
In today’s recruiting world, every P5 recruit is going to know where the schools are located and if they’re getting recruited, the program will figure out the academics.
I would argue that the opposite is true as far as name recognition, especially for FB. Each of those schools above have either a NC or a Heisman winner in the recent past.

 

[bonefish1]

The name on the jersey 100% is part of it. If everything was considered equal between two schools (playing time, TV exposure, etc) and say we were battling Alabama you can bet that recruit would pick Bama over us. There is way too much evidence both in the history of our recruiting and all over the country to support it.

Thing you have to understand about lenny is he is so used to being wrong, he gets blinded by it. He's not a bad guy though.

Silly BBQ. C’mon man. You’re going to use Bama as an example?
A better comparison with Bama would be Clemson or Auburn.
A more realistic example for Purdue would be against iu or ILL.

 

[Hardg]

Silly BBQ. C’mon man. You’re going to use Bama as an example?
A better comparison with Bama would be Clemson or Auburn.
A more realistic example for Purdue would be against iu or ILL.

Point of order! lol

I am interested in what it takes to be a perennial top 20 team. While I completely agree comparing to Alabama is not realistic, comparing to IU and Illinois is not where we’d like to end up. Try Wisconsin, Iowa, Oklahoma State, Michigan State, etc. Schools frequently in the top 20 but not National Championship contenders. That is probably Purdue's ceiling whether we like it or not and we are not even close right now.

I do agree that times have changed and exposure has increased but still believe that many athletes see and hear Purdue but couldn’t tell people where it is located.

 

[bonefish1]

Point of order! lol

I am interested in what it takes to be a perennial top 20 team. While I completely agree comparing to Alabama is not realistic, comparing to IU and Illinois is not where we’d like to end up. Try Wisconsin, Iowa, Oklahoma State, Michigan State, etc. Schools frequently in the top 20 but not National Championship contenders. That is probably Purdue's ceiling whether we like it or not and we are not even close right now.

I do agree that times have changed and exposure has increased but still believe that many athletes see and hear Purdue but couldn’t tell people where it is located.

My comparison to bama was in response to BBQ. He was saying that a recruit would choose Bama over Purdue because bama is the state school (unless of course, your name is Rondale Moore, in which case, you choose Purdue over Bama…..so there’s that).
But yes, there’s no reason Purdue shouldn’t consistently be at the same level as Wis, MSU, Iowa and those second level B10 programs. Also, I’d be surprised if a PU coach called a recruit in FL or TX and the kid said “where’s Purdue?” These kids are some casual college football fan.

 

[BBG]

Silly BBQ. C’mon man. You’re going to use Bama as an example?
A better comparison with Bama would be Clemson or Auburn.
A more realistic example for Purdue would be against iu or ILL.

It was just an example to disprove your theory about names not having an impact. And lenny I know you and how you'll read MUCH more in to my response than you should, but no one is saying it's the prime reason.

You keep thinking recruiting operates in a vacuum and every thing is the same for every recruit and that couldn't be farther from the truth. All you have to do is just read why some recruits pick one school over another every once in a while.

 

[BBG]

Point of order! lol

I am interested in what it takes to be a perennial top 20 team. While I completely agree comparing to Alabama is not realistic, comparing to IU and Illinois is not where we’d like to end up. Try Wisconsin, Iowa, Oklahoma State, Michigan State, etc. Schools frequently in the top 20 but not National Championship contenders. That is probably Purdue's ceiling whether we like it or not and we are not even close right now.

I do agree that times have changed and exposure has increased but still believe that many athletes see and hear Purdue but couldn’t tell people where it is located.

Spot on post.

 

[Chi-Boiler]

It is my opinion that private vs public, or "perceived private" - if that's what you're calling Purdue - does not amount to very much of a recruiting edge. I doubt any recruits care whether a school is private or public. I agree with bonefish on this one.

 

[NVboiler]

I do think that if you have pride in your state that you would want to play at a school with that in its name other things being equal.

 

[indyogb]

While I don't think the name is the primary factor in recruiting, I concede it might cause some confusion. I get the sense it works the other way, academically (Purdue is legitimately a good school, but the name might imply to the unaware that it is a private, and thus superior, school).

 

[NVboiler]

One thing I now hate about our name is there being also Purdue Pharma. Hopefully nobody believes there is a connection between the two.

 

[bonefish1]

It was just an example to disprove your theory about names not having an impact. And lenny I know you and how you'll read MUCH more in to my response than you should, but no one is saying it's the prime reason.

You keep thinking recruiting operates in a vacuum and every thing is the same for every recruit and that couldn't be farther from the truth. All you have to do is just read why some recruits pick one school over another every once in a while.

Recruiting has as much to do with the name as it does with the coach. Actually, the coach is more important.
Do you think Bama and Clemson will drop off when Saban and Dabo leave? Yea, those teams will bounce back quicker but it’s not like they can just roll out any warm body and be competing for a NC.
Ask Miami, USC and FSU how well that works.

 

[purduepat1969]

You said it yourself.
Clemson
Auburn
Stanford
Baylor
In today’s recruiting world, every P5 recruit is going to know where the schools are located and if they’re getting recruited, the program will figure out the academics.
I would argue that the opposite is true as far as name recognition, especially for FB. Each of those schools above have either a NC or a Heisman winner in the recent past.

Auburn is a football tradition. So throw them out the window.
Clemson has a pretty rich tradition as well. They won a championship in 1981.
Stanford is one of the best schools in the nation. Everyone knows who Stanford is.
Baylor is the big exception and is likely driven by money...

 

[WeatherMike]

I will never forget the day of my high school graduation. As soon as I finished the last day of school, I ran in to a family friend, who inquired about my plans:

"I'm going to Purdue!"
"Oh, Ivy League! Nice!"

 

[Purdue85]

Recruiting has as much to do with the name as it does with the coach. Actually, the coach is more important.
Do you think Bama and Clemson will drop off when Saban and Dabo leave? Yea, those teams will bounce back quicker but it’s not like they can just roll out any warm body and be competing for a NC.
Ask Miami, USC and FSU how well that works.

interesting to note (and back to the original conversation), Miami is a private school.

A lot of interesting schools being tossed around in this thread. For the life of me, I cannot understand why USC, UCLA, FSU, UF, Texas, Miami (et al) are not highly competitive programs every year.

 

[PaBoiler78]

I will never forget the day of my high school graduation. As soon as I finished the last day of school, I ran in to a family friend, who inquired about my plans:

"I'm going to Purdue!"
"Oh, Ivy League! Nice!"

no mention of Vandy in this thread

 

[bonefish1]

While I don't think the name is the primary factor in recruiting, I concede it might cause some confusion. I get the sense it works the other way, academically (Purdue is legitimately a good school, but the name might imply to the unaware that it is a private, and thus superior, school).

Kids being recruited at the P5 level are not unaware of anything related to their commitment. These kids watch games, talk to coaches, talk to handlers, etc. If they’re talented enough to play at that level, they know the schools.

 

[bonefish1]

Auburn is a football tradition. So throw them out the window.
Clemson has a pretty rich tradition as well. They won a championship in 1981.
Stanford is one of the best schools in the nation. Everyone knows who Stanford is.
Baylor is the big exception and is likely driven by money...

So, what’s your point? How many P5 schools aren’t the “U of” or “state” school? It’s not a large list.

 

[bonefish1]

I will never forget the day of my high school graduation. As soon as I finished the last day of school, I ran in to a family friend, who inquired about my plans:

"I'm going to Purdue!"
"Oh, Ivy League! Nice!"

There’s plenty of people in the general public who might think Purdue is Ivy. Most of them dont follow college sports.
But, it’s irrelevant when it comes to athletics.

 

[bonefish1]

interesting to note (and back to the original conversation), Miami is a private school.

A lot of interesting schools being tossed around in this thread. For the life of me, I cannot understand why USC, UCLA, FSU, UF, Texas, Miami (et al) are not highly competitive programs every year.

It’s cyclical. Miami and Nebraska are great examples. Arguably the 2 premier programs of the 80’s. Now look at them.

 

[NDAFArly]

There’s plenty of people in the general public who might think Purdue is Ivy. Most of them dont follow college sports.
But, it’s irrelevant when it comes to athletics.

Huh?
Ive never once heard anybody refer to Purdue as Ivy? I’ve never heard anyone refer to ND as Ivy either. Or Duke or Vandy. The only school I’ve heard people incorrectly refer to as Ivy is Stanford.

 

[PaBoiler78]

Huh?
Ive never once heard anybody refer to Purdue as Ivy? I’ve never heard anyone refer to ND as Ivy either. Or Duke or Vandy. The only school I’ve heard people incorrectly refer to as Ivy is Stanford.

one aspect I'll add that living out here in E. Pa. is when psu joined the BIG10 I don't get asked anymore "what state is Purdue in?" or "where's Purdue located?" when I wear my Purdue stuff.

 

[Purdue85]

Huh?
Ive never once heard anybody refer to Purdue as Ivy? I’ve never heard anyone refer to ND as Ivy either. Or Duke or Vandy. The only school I’ve heard people incorrectly refer to as Ivy is Stanford.

Your experience notwithstanding, it happens.

No doubt, this has to be annoying to you.

It's not the first time it's come up, but, yes... it happens. Purdue's academic reputation is well-deserved.

 

[bonefish1]

Huh?
Ive never once heard anybody refer to Purdue as Ivy? I’ve never heard anyone refer to ND as Ivy either. Or Duke or Vandy. The only school I’ve heard people incorrectly refer to as Ivy is Stanford.

See earlier post.
Also, “might”.
I don’t think it’s common either but I can see it happening from someone outside the Midwest.

 

[bonefish1]

no mention of Vandy in this thread

Unfortunately for Vandy, they have not redeeming athletic relevance in FB or BB. (good baseball).

 

[purduepat1969]

So, what’s your point? How many P5 schools aren’t the “U of” or “state” school? It’s not a large list.

You're the one who used them as examples, not me...

 

[Level 42]

Huh?
Ive never once heard anybody refer to Purdue as Ivy? I’ve never heard anyone refer to ND as Ivy either. Or Duke or Vandy. The only school I’ve heard people incorrectly refer to as Ivy is Stanford.

Why would anyone mention that to you while they are waiting for you to get their fries?

It happens quite a bit. Venture outside the drive-thru once in a while.

 

[TMFT]

Anecdotally, I had a girlfriend at Purdue that moved to Indiana from Ohio during HS and she always thought Purdue was a private school until she came to Indiana. I don't think she thought it was like Ivy League, but definitely thought it wasn't a state school.

 

[Tommaker]

Point of order! lol

I am interested in what it takes to be a perennial top 20 team. While I completely agree comparing to Alabama is not realistic, comparing to IU and Illinois is not where we’d like to end up. Try Wisconsin, Iowa, Oklahoma State, Michigan State, etc. Schools frequently in the top 20 but not National Championship contenders. That is probably Purdue's ceiling whether we like it or not and we are not even close right now.

I do agree that times have changed and exposure has increased but still believe that many athletes see and hear Purdue but couldn’t tell people where it is located.

1. A base to recruit from for your style of play. Wisconsin has 116 players listed on their roster; 48 are from Wisconsin. Out of 27 O-line (including TE's), 14 or over half are from Wisconsin. by comparison it's 116/36 for Purdue, with 26 OL/TE with 8 of them from Indiana. (Indiana produces basketball players, not O-lineman).
2. A base that plays football. You can have HS football and deep population (like New York) but if football isn't king, you won't be producing talented players (both schollie and walk on).
3. An administration that is football focused. I don't think I need to explain that.
4. It helps if you're the only fish in the pond.

 

[BSIT]

Okay. What source are you using to back up your proclamation that it doesn’t matter? Not saying you are wrong. There is some evidence that schools without a city or state in their name are less successful in football. Have you surveyed recruits to come up with your point?

Maybe it's because there are a lot of established programs with the name of various states? I think it's more about the program and coaching staffs success or failure. In basketball there is Duke

 

[indyogb]

1. A base to recruit from for your style of play. Wisconsin has 116 players listed on their roster; 48 are from Wisconsin. Out of 27 O-line (including TE's), 14 or over half are from Wisconsin. by comparison it's 116/36 for Purdue, with 26 OL/TE with 8 of them from Indiana. (Indiana produces basketball players, not O-lineman).
2. A base that plays football. You can have HS football and deep population (like New York) but if football isn't king, you won't be producing talented players (both schollie and walk on).
3. An administration that is football focused. I don't think I need to explain that.
4. It helps if you're the only fish in the pond.

I think Ohio State is 4/4 on that list. I'm sure that doesn't hurt their recruiting, especially since success breeds success even when recruiting outside their home state.

 

[bonefish1]

1. A base to recruit from for your style of play. Wisconsin has 116 players listed on their roster; 48 are from Wisconsin. Out of 27 O-line (including TE's), 14 or over half are from Wisconsin. by comparison it's 116/36 for Purdue, with 26 OL/TE with 8 of them from Indiana. (Indiana produces basketball players, not O-lineman).
2. A base that plays football. You can have HS football and deep population (like New York) but if football isn't king, you won't be producing talented players (both schollie and walk on).
3. An administration that is football focused. I don't think I need to explain that.
4. It helps if you're the only fish in the pond.

Just for discussion purposes, when do you think a team outside the SEC (or ACC) will win a NC?

Even though you have a bunch of B10 teams highly ranked, I'll take a highly ranked SEC team 10 out of 10 times to beat a B10 team.

 

[Chi-Boiler]

Just for discussion purposes, when do you think a team outside the SEC (or ACC) will win a NC?

Even though you have a bunch of B10 teams highly ranked, I'll take a highly ranked SEC team 10 out of 10 times to beat a B10 team.

A long time. And now that OU and UT are going there, it just makes it tougher for everyone else. Even for O$U, all the chips have to fall right for them to win a title.

 

[Tommaker]

Just for discussion purposes, when do you think a team outside the SEC (or ACC) will win a NC?

Even though you have a bunch of B10 teams highly ranked, I'll take a highly ranked SEC team 10 out of 10 times to beat a B10 team.

That is the $64 dollar question. OSU would seem to have the talent, backing and resources, yet they haven't had one since 2014 and before that 2002. So on a 12 year cicada cycle, 2026? Interestingly enough, that's just after Texas and Oklahoma enter the SEC. I see that translating into 2 losses for all but 1 SEC team, which lowers the slots they get (if the rest of college football holds to their guns and keep the current format). So maybe that opens it up for other teams who get the right draw to the championship. Other than that, maybe if a coach comes along with a new defense/offense that can negate the pure overload of talent.

 

[bonefish1]

That is the $64 dollar question. OSU would seem to have the talent, backing and resources, yet they haven't had one since 2014 and before that 2002. So on a 12 year cicada cycle, 2026? Interestingly enough, that's just after Texas and Oklahoma enter the SEC. I see that translating into 2 losses for all but 1 SEC team, which lowers the slots they get (if the rest of college football holds to their guns and keep the current format). So maybe that opens it up for other teams who get the right draw to the championship. Other than that, maybe if a coach comes along with a new defense/offense that can negate the pure overload of talent.

The overload in talent is the question. When the SEC and a few of the top ACC (Clem, FSU, UM) schools have their pick of the top talent in the south, the rest of the country P5 programs are left with the SEC/ACC leftovers.
Football is king in the south like no place else and a lot of these kids are playing as a competitive level from a very early age.

 

[MilwaukeeBoilerFan]

Huh?
Ive never once heard anybody refer to Purdue as Ivy? I’ve never heard anyone refer to ND as Ivy either. Or Duke or Vandy. The only school I’ve heard people incorrectly refer to as Ivy is Stanford.

I have. On more than one occasion during my 35 years of working in the corporate world. Doesn’t make a difference, but it is fun to hear people make the reference