FF & Stars

[Boiler Buck]

The FF this year brings hope again for me as a Boiler fan that Painter could see it someday. Other than the NC cheaters, the other 3 teams bring in a roster that I think Painter could possibly recruit. Trouble is he only has a roster like this every so often....so he needs to be more consistent. But also- 1 thing he needs to get back to.

SC has 2 guys 4 star rated 43 & 47 and a mix of other 4 and 3 star talent.
Oregon has 1 five star (18) and four 4 stars two rated at 54 & 68
GZAG has one 5 star (21) and three 4 stars (33,55, 67) and a European that is flat good (overseeas guys have no rating I guess)

What they all have in common that Painter needs to improve on and get back to is recruiting a great guard like he had in E. Moore. While we have some decent guards...certainly CE is one....we need a bigtime difference maker out there with some size. College is a guards game and you need that star to count on to pull you through that can create if needed.

So consistency in rosters, and that big time guard. Not a perfect formula - but one that gives Purdue fans hope.

 

[djy2j]

Hope Painter can get there also. But to me, losing by 30+ with the best team 1-8 that he's had, tells me he has alot to learn and a ways to go in terms of being a well rounded coach. I hope he keeps improving.

 

[BoiledSteel]

I hope he keeps improving.

He has all season regardless of the 'haters' perception of it. And no I am not calling you one, just pointing it out.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

Hope Painter can get there also. But to me, losing by 30+ with the best team 1-8 that he's had, tells me he has alot to learn and a ways to go in terms of being a well rounded coach. I hope he keeps improving.

As disappointing as it was, I don't think I've seen such a polar opposite game as that last 15 minutes in a college game...one where every thing was working as well as it could for Kansas and as bad as it was for Purdue. Everything Purdue did (TO's, bad shots, poor transition defense) played directly in to the strength that Kansas had over Purdue (athleticism, fast break, three point shooting, etc). As I have said previously....that night, I don't think Purdue's best would have beaten Kansas. It may have been around 8-12 points...but it simply wouldn't have happened. The Kansas team that played Oregon however...Purdue would have wiped the floor with them and more than likely would be playing this weekend. Just didn't quite line up for the Boilers this season.

 

[rgarlitz]

Hope Painter can get there also. But to me, losing by 30+ with the best team 1-8 that he's had, tells me he has alot to learn and a ways to go in terms of being a well rounded coach. I hope he keeps improving.

I don't necessarily disagree. The Kansas game demonstrated the gap in athleticism between Purdue and the top teams this year.

At the same time, though, I don't want to read too much into one game. I don't doubt that Kansas had a better and more athletic team than Purdue this year. But I don't really think they're 30 points better. In fairness to our guys, that game just got away from them.

There's a gap, but I don't know that it's as wide as the Sweet 16 game suggests.

 

[TC4THREE]

At the same time, though, I don't want to read too much into one game.

This. You don't scrap everything for one bad game or really just a horrible 15 minutes or so. So they ran into the wrong team at the wrong time and hit a buzzsaw. Doesn't mean it would be the same result every time they played and doesn't mean that we need to build a roster designed to beat 2017 Kansas. They were good (#1 seed) and great that night (30 point win). It would be stupid to scrap all the things that worked for us in most of the rest of the games just because it didn't work in the last one.

 

[Boiler Buck]

Hope Painter can get there also. But to me, losing by 30+ with the best team 1-8 that he's had, tells me he has alot to learn and a ways to go in terms of being a well rounded coach. I hope he keeps improving.

I think the only thing the Kansas game did was prove my point about difference maker guard play. They had them - we didn't.

Painter needs another top guard in the EMoore 6-4" vain that can create to add to CE's play.
DM - great team guy, love him and he has the size, but when you get to the E8, FF level guys of his ability usually fade as guys like him just lack the athletic ability to be a difference maker.

Hopefully the Eastern-Edwards combo fixes this fast. Hope Edwards is a guy that comes in and competes from day 1 like CE did. This improved guard play doesn't guarantee a FF but puts you in a more competitive position for one.

 

[djy2j]

I don't necessarily disagree. The Kansas game demonstrated the gap in athleticism between Purdue and the top teams this year.

At the same time, though, I don't want to read too much into one game. I don't doubt that Kansas had a better and more athletic team than Purdue this year. But I don't really think they're 30 points better. In fairness to our guys, that game just got away from them.

There's a gap, but I don't know that it's as wide as the Sweet 16 game suggests.

If we're talking about getting a championship I think you do have to put alot of stock in that game because it's the only game that matters for that specific goal.

Purdue had an amazing Big Ten Championship season. No regrets. Unfortunately, Painter hasn't figured out how to carry over regular success over into the tournament. Making the Sweet 16 was awesome. I am thrilled. I am happy for the team. But losing by 30 to a team that went on to lose their next game tells me there is still a ways to go to become an elite team.

 

[tjreese]

As disappointing as it was, I don't think I've seen such a polar opposite game as that last 15 minutes in a college game...one where every thing was working as well as it could for Kansas and as bad as it was for Purdue. Everything Purdue did (TO's, bad shots, poor transition defense) played directly in to the strength that Kansas had over Purdue (athleticism, fast break, three point shooting, etc). As I have said previously....that night, I don't think Purdue's best would have beaten Kansas. It may have been around 8-12 points...but it simply wouldn't have happened. The Kansas team that played Oregon however...Purdue would have wiped the floor with them and more than likely would be playing this weekend. Just didn't quite line up for the Boilers this season.

When it got up around 17 to 19 points Purdue just starting trying to shoot their way back. I don't think the players or coaches were concerned in getting beat 30 or 12...they were just trying to win ( I didn't agree with it). Drawing a conclusion as to a coach or a team in a single game based upon final score may not be an accurate portrayal of the two teams day in and day out relative to the gap. There is a gap between Purdue and Kansas, but it isn't 30 points. It's like throwing dice and getting a 12 (1/36) and then the next throw is a 2 (1/36)and thinking the gap between the dice is 10 when in fact it is more likely you throw a 6(5/36) or a 7(6/36) or an 8 (5/36) and show the gap 1 or 2.

 

[mathboy]

When it got up around 17 to 19 points Purdue just starting trying to shoot their way back. I don't think the players or coaches were concerned in getting beat 30 or 12...they were just trying to win ( I didn't agree with it). Drawing a conclusion as to a coach or a team in a single game based upon final score may not be an accurate portrayal of the two teams day in and day out relative to the gap. There is a gap between Purdue and Kansas, but it isn't 30 points. It's like throwing dice and getting a 12 (1/36) and then the next throw is a 2 (1/36)and thinking the gap between the dice is 10 when in fact it is more likely you throw a 6(5/36) or a 7(6/36) or an 8 (5/36) and show the gap 1 or 2.

Right on target. We need to be careful about drawing conclusions based on the 15 minutes Kansas ran away with that game. The difference is not the 30 points reflected in the final score. Thanks TJ. You nailed very well. The key is to understand the real difference to understand what corrective actions are needed.

 

[bonefish1]

I think the only thing the Kansas game did was prove my point about difference maker guard play. They had them -we didn't. Painter needs another top guard in the EMoore 6-4" vain that can create to add to CE's play.

DM - great team guy, love him and he has the size, but when you get to the E8, FF level guys of his ability usually fade as guys like him just lack the athletic ability to be a difference maker. This doesn't guarantee a FF but puts you in a more competitive position for one.

Hopefully the Eastern-Edwards combo fixes this fast. Hope Edwards is a guy that comes in and competes from day 1 like CE did.

Agree. Guard, and specifically PG, is the most important position on the floor. It's like QB in FB.
Without great guards in the tourney, eventually you get exposed.
That's been PUs problem in the tourney since the Keady years.

 

[boilernuke]

The FF this year brings hope again for me as a Boiler fan that Painter could see it someday. Other than the NC cheaters, the other 3 teams bring in a roster that I think Painter could possibly recruit. Trouble is he only has a roster like this every so often....so he needs to be more consistent. But also- 1 thing he needs to get back to.

SC has 2 guys 4 star rated 43 & 47 and a mix of other 4 and 3 star talent.
Oregon has 1 five star (18) and four 4 stars two rated at 54 & 68
GZAG has one 5 star (21) and three 4 stars (33,55, 67) and a European that is flat good (overseeas guys have no rating I guess)

What they all have in common that Painter needs to improve on and get back to is recruiting a great guard like he had in E. Moore. While we have some decent guards...certainly CE is one....we need a bigtime difference maker out there with some size. College is a guards game and you need that star to count on to pull you through that can create if needed.

So consistency in rosters, and that big time guard. Not a perfect formula - but one that gives Purdue fans hope.

This might need a separate thread, but I live in Columbia and follow USC basketball too. They are not any more talented than Purdue and if the two teams played, Purdue would win at least 7/10 times. They have one very good player in Thornwell, and the rest are average. I have a USC degree too, so nothing against them, just calling what it is. Over the years especially recently, much of tourney wins is simply luck IMHO. Is your team hot, is the opposing team hot, etc. Its a bit frustrating here because most people don't care about basketball, and if they do it's the women's team because they have been in FF multiple times. USC definitely earned it, but it feels very wasted on the fan base who cares about football first, baseball close second, golf, then a whole bunch of other sports, then basketball. I exaggerated a bit there but probably not far off.

 

[rgarlitz]

If we're talking about getting a championship I think you do have to put alot of stock in that game because it's the only game that matters for that specific goal.

Purdue had an amazing Big Ten Championship season. No regrets. Unfortunately, Painter hasn't figured out how to carry over regular success over into the tournament. Making the Sweet 16 was awesome. I am thrilled. I am happy for the team. But losing by 30 to a team that went on to lose their next game tells me there is still a ways to go to become an elite team.

Agree. Guard, and specifically PG, is the most important position on the floor. It's like QB in FB.
Without great guards in the tourney, eventually you get exposed.
That's been PUs problem in the tourney since the Keady years.

Both valid points. And it was more than just Kansas. Purdue also had trouble with Michigan and Louisville, two other teams whose length and athleticism is/was superior to Purdue's.

Kansas was certainly the better team, no doubt about that. I just don't think that the talent/athleticism gap is as wide as that one game might suggest.

 

[td75]

It really depends on what Purdue wants out of its bball program. Painter has done a decent job but he's obviously plateaued/planed off. He's good for a Sweet Sixteen ride every once in a while but that's his peak.

I knew he wasn't a good tournament coach after I watched Purdue shit the bed several years ago versus Cincinnati in the tourney. They'd be better off going after a new coach. Painter is capped at the S16....

 

[NVBoilerFan]

It really depends on what Purdue wants out of its bball program. Painter has done a decent job but he's obviously plateaued/planed off. He's good for a Sweet Sixteen ride every once in a while but that's his peak.

I knew he wasn't a good tournament coach after I watched Purdue shit the bed several years ago versus Cincinnati in the tourney. They'd be better off going after a new coach. Painter is capped at the S16....

And the sheer stupidity continues. This board never ceases to amaze me.

 

[TwinDegrees2]

This might need a separate thread, but I live in Columbia and follow USC basketball too. They are not any more talented than Purdue and if the two teams played, Purdue would win at least 7/10 times. They have one very good player in Thornwell, and the rest are average. I have a USC degree too, so nothing against them, just calling what it is. Over the years especially recently, much of tourney wins is simply luck IMHO. Is your team hot, is the opposing team hot, etc. Its a bit frustrating here because most people don't care about basketball, and if they do it's the women's team because they have been in FF multiple times. USC definitely earned it, but it feels very wasted on the fan base who cares about football first, baseball close second, golf, then a whole bunch of other sports, then basketball. I exaggerated a bit there but probably not far off.

Question....I've always had an opinion of Martin that he's a dirty coach...that he'll take whatever it takes to get the player he wants, regardless of academics or discipline. What's the word about him in that area and am I wrong about him?

 

[bonefish1]

Martin was one of my favorite players. He has been through a lot(cancer) and come out on top. He was also my favorite to replace Painter had he gone to Missouri. Not sure he has the Xs and Os to the level they need to be yet, but he can sure recruit. He gets the players he wants I believe not because he is "dirty", but because he is an inspirational person. He was certainly that as a player. A tremendous leader that led by example. I think you will see Missouri on the rise very soon.

I think he's referring to Frank, not Zo....

But, while we're on the subject: big time college hoops is a business, plain and simple. It's dirty, slimey and stinky. But, as long as it's legal, the name of the game is to win. It's why college basketball coaches are often the highest paid employee of the university.
I'd have zero problem with Painter hiring someone's dad or AAU coach if that meant a FF or national championship. As little big as its legal, you need every edge you can get.
You think any UNC alumn are worried about their various scandals as they head to their 20th final four?

 

[Dakota Girl]

The FF this year brings hope again for me as a Boiler fan that Painter could see it someday. Other than the NC cheaters, the other 3 teams bring in a roster that I think Painter could possibly recruit. Trouble is he only has a roster like this every so often....so he needs to be more consistent. But also- 1 thing he needs to get back to.

SC has 2 guys 4 star rated 43 & 47 and a mix of other 4 and 3 star talent.
Oregon has 1 five star (18) and four 4 stars two rated at 54 & 68
GZAG has one 5 star (21) and three 4 stars (33,55, 67) and a European that is flat good (overseeas guys have no rating I guess)

What they all have in common that Painter needs to improve on and get back to is recruiting a great guard like he had in E. Moore. While we have some decent guards...certainly CE is one....we need a bigtime difference maker out there with some size. College is a guards game and you need that star to count on to pull you through that can create if needed.

So consistency in rosters, and that big time guard. Not a perfect formula - but one that gives Purdue fans hope.

I think you are on target for our recruiting ceiling. And it does appear that it can result in high level success. Consistency is the most critical factor along with guards.

 

[Dakota Girl]

Hope Painter can get there also. But to me, losing by 30+ with the best team 1-8 that he's had, tells me he has alot to learn and a ways to go in terms of being a well rounded coach. I hope he keeps improving.

I don't get hung up on the point spread. Kansas once it was clearly over, let's say the 7 minute mark, Kansas kept firing away from deep at a very high percentage. Don't get me wrong, were big boys, pour it on. But most teams with a big lead tend to relax and level off. They didn't. I have seen people say we should have pressed. Are they kidding me? We would have lost by fifty and had all 10 of the top 10 posterizations on dportscenter if we had done that.
By the way. This is not Painters best team. The team the year Hummel went down in the barn was far better. It had all the elements and positional flexibility. That's the target.

 

[Boiler Buck]

Frank Martin appears to be an awesome coach and decent recruiter. He is defensive minded similar to Keady.

 

[boilernuke]

Question....I've always had an opinion of Martin that he's a dirty coach...that he'll take whatever it takes to get the player he wants, regardless of academics or discipline. What's the word about him in that area and am I wrong about him?

He's an above average recruiter, so perhaps some people assume the worst. Here everyone that knows basketball really like Martin. He's a good coach and well respected by others and loved by his players. Certain players are attracted to his rough exterior but loving personality. I can see why some kids would just want to play for him. I thought it was a great hire for SC and hope he sticks around. Not sure what his ceiling is, and we will see what happens this weekend, but I'm not sure he will get back to a FF at SC, just think the team got lucky/hot at the right time because thoughout the year the team did not look good.

I will say this. The SEC programs are aware that fans of other conferences think what you mentioned above (lower character standards for players) and it bothers them. this also plays into your impression of Martin. I certainly don't have any inside info, and generally SC really supports their coaches, so it it hard to find any rumors...unless I talk with the Clemson fans here.

 

[BoilerStation]

Frank Martin appears to be an awesome coach and decent recruiter. He is defensive minded similar to Keady.

Frank Martin is also the flavor of the week who won a couple of big games and gave some good sound bites that ESPN and the older fans ate up because he comes across as some no nonsense work hard kind of guy. He may be that way now but he wasn't back at KSU when he took in Bill Walker and Michael Beasley. He may be a good coach but he is selling the attention he is getting right now very well. Not to detract what South Carolina has done because its very impressive and nobody saw it coming.

 

[Boiler Buck]

Frank Martin is also the flavor of the week who won a couple of big games and gave some good sound bites that ESPN and the older fans ate up because he comes across as some no nonsense work hard kind of guy. He may be that way now but he wasn't back at KSU when he took in Bill Walker and Michael Beasley. He may be a good coach but he is selling the attention he is getting right now very well. Not to detract what South Carolina has done because its very impressive and nobody saw it coming.

I sure did not have them as FF, but had them as elite 8 team. When SC D tore apart Michigan around Thanksgiving and then later we got beat twice by Michigan....putting those two things together.... I knew they were flat good.