Daniels' Q&A

[BoilerBulldog]

Man, I really love what Mitch is doing with our school. We are very fortunate to have him and I hope we keep him around awhile.

http://m.kpcnews.com/opinions/other...7d5-fab9-50f3-a443-622c2105c874.html?mode=jqm

 

[krs84]

Man, I really love what Mitch is doing with our school. We are very fortunate to have him and I hope we keep him around awhile.

http://m.kpcnews.com/opinions/other...7d5-fab9-50f3-a443-622c2105c874.html?mode=jqm

You can have him. He ruined my profession (public school teacher in Indiana) with his policies that started the public school teaching witch hunt in Indiana. Thousands of Purdue alums in my situation have similar thoughts - - I am sure that many Purdue Faculty feel the same way.

 

[BoilerAndy]

Man, I really love what Mitch is doing with our school. We are very fortunate to have him and I hope we keep him around awhile.

http://m.kpcnews.com/opinions/other...7d5-fab9-50f3-a443-622c2105c874.html?mode=jqm

I agree. With two of my own kids attending, he put a stop to the insane tuition increases and started cutting out a lot of the wasteful crap. He put education first at Purdue again.

 

[Boilermaker]

You can have him. He ruined my profession (public school teacher in Indiana) with his policies that started the public school teaching witch hunt in Indiana. Thousands of Purdue alums in my situation have similar thoughts - - I am sure that many Purdue Faculty feel the same way.

Is he bad for Purdue in your opinion or just bad for teachers during his stint as governor?

 

[tjreese]

Is he bad for Purdue in your opinion or just bad for teachers during his stint as governor?

Better yet...what was he bad about?

 

[rjmpu82]

My kids both just graduated from Purdue in the past 3 years. They loved Mitch and said most of the students felt the same way. He was at the Co-Rec working out, eating with the students, etc. He holds people accountable and there is no slacking and no waste. One of my best friends is in the Indiana legislature and said the difference between Daniels and other governors he worked with is unbelievable. Daniels meetings rarely last more than an hour and he is efficient and organized. The tuition freeze is the envy of parents everywhere. One of his goals is to no longer associate high cost education with quality of education. I understand to a point the public teachers disdain, but public education is so top heavy in administration that the classroom teacher are the ones who suffer. Will always be a Mitch fan.

 

[NVBoilerFan]

You can have him. He ruined my profession (public school teacher in Indiana) with his policies that started the public school teaching witch hunt in Indiana. Thousands of Purdue alums in my situation have similar thoughts - - I am sure that many Purdue Faculty feel the same way.

I knew this topic would trigger a lefty whiner.

 

[tjreese]

I knew this topic would trigger a lefty whiner.

I remember a teacher upset when Mitch became president and I asked then what he did to public education and never got an answer? I really don't know and would like to know...

I thought it was a great hire, but would like to hear how he ruined education in the posters opinion

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

I knew this topic would trigger a lefty whiner.

And who would guess someone who has little to no knowledge about the situation would be an asshat about it.

Before judging, try seeing what his insane policies did to classroom teachers. His policies did nothing to the public education sector except create massive budget issues in almost all districts and funnel money to private and charter schools. Don't believe me? Ask the teachers in places like TSC where I lost my job in 2009 due to those exact issues...a district that in the entirety of their existence had never had a single layoff. Or possibly Tri-County School Corporation that is operating at a near deficit as well.

Meanwhile while he was governor, his State Superintendent of schools was purposely altering grades of failing charter schools in an attempt to make public schools a scapegoat. The facts are the facts and charter schools do nothing but continually lag behind public schools who are given less and less and made a scapegoat.

Link: Tony Bennett grade scandal (http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3688690)

Now that isn't to say public education isn't at some point responsible for some fault. There is traditionally too much administration and it continues to operate on old systems of thought. Smaller school districts should consolidate (like White County schools: currently Frontier, Tri-County, North White) to save on costs and expand opportunities unities. But research shows that students succeed at a greater rate with money money and resources given to their teachers while maintaining small class sizes. I teach st Harrison High School in West Lafayette and I currently have more than 30 students per class in a required general education course I teach. More money is needed to make salaries competitive and recruit more teachers to the profession while also retaining highly qualified teachers in the field.

 

[Dandelion1972]

Yep, there's your answer, more money! (what a surprise!)

I also taught for nearly 40 years in public AND private schools. The problem ISN'T money, IMO.

I taught in a large school, and I taught in a small school. Consolidation isn't the solution either. The large school had a MANY problems that the smaller "family" school didn't even think about.

Consider this:

In the big school, one year, the administration came to us and told us they were going to renovate. We asked them politely just to fix the problems in the classrooms and do some minor changes.

"Oh no, if you don't accept our proposal, we'll move to another department and you won't be considered again for 10 years."

So, instead of fixing the classrooms and doing what we (as a department) suggested, they ripped out everything from floor to ceiling and wall to wall. Instead of the cost being about $40,000 per classroom, each classroom was completely redone at the cost of $125,000 per.

And, I might add, the workmanship and quality of the cabinetry was inferior to the original.

My point, MONEY wasn't the solution.

----------------------------------------------

I could point out 10 more examples of wasteful spending, but then, you probably wouldn't read it.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

Yep, there's your answer, more money! (what a surprise!)

I also taught for nearly 40 years in public AND private schools. The problem ISN'T money, IMO.

I taught in a large school, and I taught in a small school. Consolidation isn't the solution either. The large school had a MANY problems that the smaller "family" school didn't even think about.

Consider this:

In the big school, one year, the administration came to us and told us they were going to renovate. We asked them politely just to fix the problems in the classrooms and do some minor changes.

"Oh no, if you don't accept our proposal, we'll move to another department and you won't be considered again for 10 years."

So, instead of fixing the classrooms and doing what we (as a department) suggested, they ripped out everything from floor to ceiling and wall to wall. Instead of the cost being about $40,000 per classroom, each classroom was completely redone at the cost of $125,000 per.

And, I might add, the workmanship and quality of the cabinetry was inferior to the original.

My point, MONEY wasn't the solution.

----------------------------------------------

I could point out 10 more examples of wasteful spending, but then, you probably wouldn't read it.

You make a good point but support one of my points though: admins and officials don't know what to do and have become businessmen instead of educators. That is due largely in part to policies undertaken by Mitch Daniels.

Your point is valid in that admins should take more consideration to the wants and needs of their staff...but the solution is simple: if you offer a better salary to younger teachers, you will see a larger crop of better teachers to advance our education system. I have personally seen many young people say they would love to be teachers who are some of the brightest kids I have known and would make incredible teachers...but they laugh when they see the horrendous salary for teachers with a four year degree. I am in my 9th year teaching overall (would be 10 if I wasn't laid off due to budget cuts two consecutive years and spent a year unemployed in 2010) and just barely went over 40k last year. If I could swing having my boys full time and working a second shift job at SIA to transition to first shift...I could easily and quickly make 60k a year with overtime. However, it's hard to beat the summers off and spending 2 free months with my kids and not having insurance with two young boys that I care for myself is simply too daunting at this point.

 

[BoilerAndy]

Now that isn't to say public education isn't at some point responsible for some fault. There is traditionally too much administration and it continues to operate on old systems of thought. Smaller school districts should consolidate (like White County schools: currently Frontier, Tri-County, North White) to save on costs and expand opportunities unities. But research shows that students succeed at a greater rate with money money and resources given to their teachers while maintaining small class sizes. I teach st Harrison High School in West Lafayette and I currently have more than 30 students per class in a required general education course I teach. More money is needed to make salaries competitive and recruit more teachers to the profession while also retaining highly qualified teachers in the field.

Your first point here is a good one. If kids were getting a good public education, then there would have never been a call for change.

But your last statement is not supported by the facts. At one point I lived with my family in Michigan. Michigan teachers were ranked 3rd highest in the nation in teacher's pay, yet the public education was ranked in the bottom 3 nationally. Parochial school teachers are paid much less than public school teachers, yet the education is widely considered much better at parochial schools. There are many complex factors in play, but paying teachers more is far from a guaranteed fix.

 

[SIBoiler2]

Your first point here is a good one. If kids were getting a good public education, then there would have never been a call for change.

But your last statement is not supported by the facts. At one point I lived with my family in Michigan. Michigan teachers were ranked 3rd highest in the nation in teacher's pay, yet the public education was ranked in the bottom 3 nationally. Parochial school teachers are paid much less than public school teachers, yet the education is widely considered much better at parochial schools. There are many complex factors in play, but paying teachers more is far from a guaranteed fix.

Michigan teacher salaries were driven to their levels at one time by the union pay scale of auto workers as we're their benefits packages. Being unionized has allowed them to maintain those levels. Much like in industry union membership does not always guarantee the quality of the end product.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

Your first point here is a good one. If kids were getting a good public education, then there would have never been a call for change.

But your last statement is not supported by the facts. At one point I lived with my family in Michigan. Michigan teachers were ranked 3rd highest in the nation in teacher's pay, yet the public education was ranked in the bottom 3 nationally. Parochial school teachers are paid much less than public school teachers, yet the education is widely considered much better at parochial schools. There are many complex factors in play, but paying teachers more is far from a guaranteed fix.

If you owned a corporation and needed a job to be filled, would you expect to get better applicants with a proposed salary of 26k or with 40k?

 

[New Pal Boiler]

You make a good point but support one of my points though: admins and officials don't know what to do and have become businessmen instead of educators. That is due largely in part to policies undertaken by Mitch Daniels.

Your point is valid in that admins should take more consideration to the wants and needs of their staff...but the solution is simple: if you offer a better salary to younger teachers, you will see a larger crop of better teachers to advance our education system. I have personally seen many young people say they would love to be teachers who are some of the brightest kids I have known and would make incredible teachers...but they laugh when they see the horrendous salary for teachers with a four year degree. I am in my 9th year teaching overall (would be 10 if I wasn't laid off due to budget cuts two consecutive years and spent a year unemployed in 2010) and just barely went over 40k last year. If I could swing having my boys full time and working a second shift job at SIA to transition to first shift...I could easily and quickly make 60k a year with overtime. However, it's hard to beat the summers off and spending 2 free months with my kids and not having insurance with two young boys that I care for myself is simply too daunting at this point.

I blame teachers unions for some of the issues. All of my kids have had bad teachers who obviously do not enjoy kids, or teaching, but it is very hard to get rid of them.

Also I blame the hordes of bad parents who aren't training or disciplining their kids at home, and then expect teachers to do their job for them.

 

[NVBoilerFan]

And who would guess someone who has little to no knowledge about the situation would be an asshat about it.

Before judging, try seeing what his insane policies did to classroom teachers. His policies did nothing to the public education sector except create massive budget issues in almost all districts and funnel money to private and charter schools. Don't believe me? Ask the teachers in places like TSC where I lost my job in 2009 due to those exact issues...a district that in the entirety of their existence had never had a single layoff. Or possibly Tri-County School Corporation that is operating at a near deficit as well.

Meanwhile while he was governor, his State Superintendent of schools was purposely altering grades of failing charter schools in an attempt to make public schools a scapegoat. The facts are the facts and charter schools do nothing but continually lag behind public schools who are given less and less and made a scapegoat.

Link: Tony Bennett grade scandal (http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3688690)

Now that isn't to say public education isn't at some point responsible for some fault. There is traditionally too much administration and it continues to operate on old systems of thought. Smaller school districts should consolidate (like White County schools: currently Frontier, Tri-County, North White) to save on costs and expand opportunities unities. But research shows that students succeed at a greater rate with money money and resources given to their teachers while maintaining

I blame teachers unions for some of the issues. All of my kids have had bad teachers who obviously do not enjoy kids, or teaching, but it is very hard to get rid of them.

Also I blame the hordes of bad parents who aren't training or disciplining their kids at home, and then expect teachers to do their job for them.

Yep plenty of blame to go around but I always amazed how libs come out of the woodwork to only blame republican admins when the schools stunk just as bad if not worse when dems were in charge. Union leaders are in the dems pockets and most of the sheep just regurgitate the same talking points. No public employee should be able to collectively bargain of tax payer dollars, just breeds corruption.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

I blame teachers unions for some of the issues. All of my kids have had bad teachers who obviously do not enjoy kids, or teaching, but it is very hard to get rid of them.

Also I blame the hordes of bad parents who aren't training or disciplining their kids at home, and then expect teachers to do their job for them.

I would hope that's principles were given more freedom to simply fire barb teachers...but it's hard to hire when there isn't a pool of candidates large enough. I think is where the response from politicians came from when their idea to allow non-teachers to teach if they had relevant certifications or passed a test. Issue is this: they have zero pedagogy.

 

[StickPurdue]

I would hope that's principles were given more freedom to simply fire barb teachers...but it's hard to hire when there isn't a pool of candidates large enough. I think is where the response from politicians came from when their idea to allow non-teachers to teach if they had relevant certifications or passed a test. Issue is this: they have zero pedagogy.

I work in the inner city of Indianapolis. The teachers can't teach because they have zero power or control. Their are too many kids that have no interest in education that ruin it for those that do. The best solution I have seen has been charter schools. This pulls those kids willing to learn and gives them a chance at a private education on par with what can be found in the suburbs. The problem is, it takes funds away from the inner city public schools. Teachers hate this, and a firmly against it, but I have seen the results on those kids in the charter schools and what it means to them. There isn't really an alternative to a school that is flooded with kids that have no interest in an education and completely disrupt the class rooms. I may be in the minority, but I have seen it gives with no chance a decent shot at college and a means to escape poverty. Education has been watered down and teachers are limited with their discipline. It's been all dictated by test scores and the needs of the individuals have gone down. There is no way a teacher can be expected to be affective with such large class sizes filled with kids on different levels. There is no easy solution.

 

[SIBoiler2]

I blame teachers unions for some of the issues. All of my kids have had bad teachers who obviously do not enjoy kids, or teaching, but it is very hard to get rid of them.

Also I blame the hordes of bad parents who aren't training or disciplining their kids at home, and then expect teachers to do their job for them.

Might I add that the same weak parenting also pushed for the ability of teachers to discipline be taken out of the schools.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

I work in the inner city of Indianapolis. The teachers can't teach because they have zero power or control. Their are too many kids that have no interest in education that ruin it for those that do. The best solution I have seen has been charter schools. This pulls those kids willing to learn and gives them a chance at a private education on par with what can be found in the suburbs. The problem is, it takes funds away from the inner city public schools. Teachers hate this, and a firmly against it, but I have seen the results on those kids in the charter schools and what it means to them. There isn't really an alternative to a school that is flooded with kids that have no interest in an education and completely disrupt the class rooms. I may be in the minority, but I have seen it gives with no chance a decent shot at college and a means to escape poverty. Education has been watered down and teachers are limited with their discipline. It's been all dictated by test scores and the needs of the individuals have gone down. There is no way a teacher can be expected to be affective with such large class sizes filled with kids on different levels. There is no easy solution.

There is an alternative: its called trade schools. Get kids trained in applicable skills like plumbing, electricians, CDL, emergency services, etc. Many kids hate school because they have no want or no ability to get to college so they are just wasting time until they are old enough.

Also, charter schools as privileged schools is inherently wrong and is a new form of segregation based largely on economic background instead of race, imo.

 

[njm8845]

There is an alternative: its called trade schools. Get kids trained in applicable skills like plumbing, electricians, CDL, emergency services, etc. Many kids hate school because they have no want or no ability to get to college so they are just wasting time until they are old enough.

Also, charter schools as privileged schools is inherently wrong and is a new form of segregation based largely on economic background instead of race, imo.

Auto workers don't like efficient robots. Cab drivers don't like uber drivers. Public school teachers don't like charter schools. The established method of doing things never likes disruption (why would they? The teacher's union has it made). But that doesn't mean it's a negative for society in general.

My main beef whenever I hear this debate (and I have 3 teachers in my family) is that the argument always takes the form of "look how hard it is on teachers". But it should be about what effect it has on the kids.

 

[tjreese]

And who would guess someone who has little to no knowledge about the situation would be an asshat about it.

Before judging, try seeing what his insane policies did to classroom teachers. His policies did nothing to the public education sector except create massive budget issues in almost all districts and funnel money to private and charter schools. Don't believe me? Ask the teachers in places like TSC where I lost my job in 2009 due to those exact issues...a district that in the entirety of their existence had never had a single layoff. Or possibly Tri-County School Corporation that is operating at a near deficit as well.

Meanwhile while he was governor, his State Superintendent of schools was purposely altering grades of failing charter schools in an attempt to make public schools a scapegoat. The facts are the facts and charter schools do nothing but continually lag behind public schools who are given less and less and made a scapegoat.

Link: Tony Bennett grade scandal (http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3688690)

Now that isn't to say public education isn't at some point responsible for some fault. There is traditionally too much administration and it continues to operate on old systems of thought. Smaller school districts should consolidate (like White County schools: currently Frontier, Tri-County, North White) to save on costs and expand opportunities unities. But research shows that students succeed at a greater rate with money money and resources given to their teachers while maintaining small class sizes. I teach st Harrison High School in West Lafayette and I currently have more than 30 students per class in a required general education course I teach. More money is needed to make salaries competitive and recruit more teachers to the profession while also retaining highly qualified teachers in the field.

A lot of interesting comments here and below your post. Most have been discussed many times in various forums. I have a lot of work today, but would love to opine on the many personal experiences commented on here...from money and academic performance, to charter schools, hiring teachers and a whole host of things like consolidation size of schools, pedagogical practices, classroom size and whatever I missed...and not sure if anyone addressed a real issue like discipline by the principal. Anyway, I too have a lot of teachers, ex-principals and athletic directors in my family...a lot in my extended family as well. All this "stuff" on "performance" goes back to data, statistical analysis and an understanding of noise I believe..as well as discrete data rather than continuous data or in some cases qualitative data versus quantitative data.

I discussed teacher pedagogical practices with a national policy adviser that didn't think subject matter knowledge was important. I'll say this...good teaching is very important and we all should value a "good to excellent" educational opportunity. I'll also add at the end of the day schools show no improvement over time, because the public cannot agree on what a school should do...it really is that simple. Anyway, I need to read all of the below posts and see if I can't also give an opinion later.

 

[StickPurdue]

There is an alternative: its called trade schools. Get kids trained in applicable skills like plumbing, electricians, CDL, emergency services, etc. Many kids hate school because they have no want or no ability to get to college so they are just wasting time until they are old enough.

Also, charter schools as privileged schools is inherently wrong and is a new form of segregation based largely on economic background instead of race, imo.

That is the opposite of what is happening. Schools cut shop class, language arts, and after school programs first. My school has an auto shop class and a building class where they mock built a house. They also had radio/tv classes and classes where the kids built sets for the choir and bands. Those things have all been limited and those teachers that continue those programs do so on their own time/dime.

I don't think I will ever agree with a teacher on the charter school issue and I fully understand the other side of the argument. It takes major resources away from the public schools, because the public schools aren't offering the same opportunities for inner city kids. Also keep in mind, my opinion only deals with charter schools in inner cities. Ones where kids apply and indigent kids are entered in a lottery to get selected to attend for free. They cost more money because the class sizes are smaller and the teachers have more freedom. Inner city public schools are so flooded with kids and have large a number of kids that shouldn't be mixed with those wanting to learn. They cause fights, bring drugs, disrupt class, ditch school, and various other things. The current public system in inner cities isn't working. Unfortunately it is like a chicken and egg as well. Inner cities have lower test scores and funding is based on testing. It also has a high turnover for teachers due to problems with student/parents/and administrators. Parents have completely handicapped teachers, there is no doubt about that.

I believe we have gotten a tad off topic, but for the record I don't like Mitch. He allowed the morgue to hit the athletic program until they were running at a loss and finally invested in athletics. He has turned it around, but he also showed an early interest in foreign students and at one point I read instate enrollment was way down. Recently, I think that is changed, and he has done a good job with trimming a lot of the fat and keeping the costs down. I was gone before he arrived. I was there when he was running for political office and got to see all of the my man Mitch stickers. I even voted for him and thought overall he did a decent job. But I strongly disliked him as the president of Purdue. My opinion could easily change, that's just where I am at right now.

 

[BoilerAndy]

If you owned a corporation and needed a job to be filled, would you expect to get better applicants with a proposed salary of 26k or with 40k?

Yes. But apparently these free market principles don't apply to education in the US, as per my example of public vs. parochial school education. There is no correlation between teacher's pay and quality of education. Incompetent teachers are paid the same as excellent teachers. And for some baffling reason, even the good teachers seem to be opposed to merit-based pay.

 

[Purdue85]

I remember a teacher upset when Mitch became president and I asked then what he did to public education and never got an answer? I really don't know and would like to know...

I thought it was a great hire, but would like to hear how he ruined education in the posters opinion

He was a Republican governor, and they were told to hate him.

 

[ghostoffatjack]

If you owned a corporation and needed a job to be filled, would you expect to get better applicants with a proposed salary of 26k or with 40k?

Yes. But apparently these free market principles don't apply to education in the US, as per my example of public vs. parochial school education. There is no correlation between teacher's pay and quality of education. Incompetent teachers are paid the same as excellent teachers. And for some baffling reason, even the good teachers seem to be opposed to merit-based pay.

FWIW, 1) the merit pay proposals were always tied to student performance on state mandated tests so the question was who would teach those lower performing students at the risk of their salary 2) overall low teacher salaries compared to neighboring states of Michigan, Illinois and Ohio contributed to teachers leaving the profession in Indiana and 3) Charter Schools for the most part A) attract the high average to top students from public schools, B) expel their discipline and non-performing students back to public schools C) for the most part don't accept the SPED, ESL and physically challenged students due to not having the facilities to accommodate them, D) did not have to repay their seed money startup loans...millions and E) employ many foreign teachers without valid State Licenses .

That was Daniels education legacy as Governor!

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Yes. But apparently these free market principles don't apply to education in the US, as per my example of public vs. parochial school education. There is no correlation between teacher's pay and quality of education. Incompetent teachers are paid the same as excellent teachers. And for some baffling reason, even the good teachers seem to be opposed to merit-based pay.

Merit-based pay encourages 180 days of test prep, not teaching. And there is a difference.

 

[mathboy]

That is the opposite of what is happening. Schools cut shop class, language arts, and after school programs first. My school has an auto shop class and a building class where they mock built a house. They also had radio/tv classes and classes where the kids built sets for the choir and bands. Those things have all been limited and those teachers that continue those programs do so on their own time/dime.

I don't think I will ever agree with a teacher on the charter school issue and I fully understand the other side of the argument. It takes major resources away from the public schools, because the public schools aren't offering the same opportunities for inner city kids. Also keep in mind, my opinion only deals with charter schools in inner cities. Ones where kids apply and indigent kids are entered in a lottery to get selected to attend for free. They cost more money because the class sizes are smaller and the teachers have more freedom. Inner city public schools are so flooded with kids and have large a number of kids that shouldn't be mixed with those wanting to learn. They cause fights, bring drugs, disrupt class, ditch school, and various other things. The current public system in inner cities isn't working. Unfortunately it is like a chicken and egg as well. Inner cities have lower test scores and funding is based on testing. It also has a high turnover for teachers due to problems with student/parents/and administrators. Parents have completely handicapped teachers, there is no doubt about that.

I believe we have gotten a tad off topic, but for the record I don't like Mitch. He allowed the morgue to hit the athletic program until they were running at a loss and finally invested in athletics. He has turned it around, but he also showed an early interest in foreign students and at one point I read instate enrollment was way down. Recently, I think that is changed, and he has done a good job with trimming a lot of the fat and keeping the costs down. I was gone before he arrived. I was there when he was running for political office and got to see all of the my man Mitch stickers. I even voted for him and thought overall he did a decent job. But I strongly disliked him as the president of Purdue. My opinion could easily change, that's just where I am at right now.

Just a small tweek to your rant. I think it was the previous administration that squeezed all the money out of our athletics, not Mitch. There might be plenty of other things to be pissed about, but his support of Purdue athletics started day 1.

 

[BoilerAndy]

Merit-based pay encourages 180 days of test prep, not teaching. And there is a difference.

How do you address incompetent teachers getting the same pay as excellent teachers?

 

[BoilerBulldog]

I didn't really want this to turn into a huge public teacher rant. I never attended any public schools other than Purdue. My son and wife haven't either. I will keep my opinions of the public teacher union private but I would ask we focus this post on Daniels' impact on Purdue.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

How do you address incompetent teachers getting the same pay as excellent teachers?

Fire the incompetent ones, which is hard to do because of the unions.

 

[BoilerAndy]

FWIW, 1) the merit pay proposals were always tied to student performance on state mandated tests so the question was who would teach those lower performing students at the risk of their salary 2) overall low teacher salaries compared to neighboring states of Michigan, Illinois and Ohio contributed to teachers leaving the profession in Indiana and 3) Charter Schools for the most part A) attract the high average to top students from public schools, B) expel their discipline and non-performing students back to public schools C) for the most part don't accept the SPED, ESL and physically challenged students due to not having the facilities to accommodate them, D) did not have to repay their seed money startup loans...millions and E) employ many foreign teachers without valid State Licenses .

That was Daniels education legacy as Governor!

Everything in your response tells me that the problem is not teacher's salary. I have lived in Michigan and Illinois, which you correctly state pays higher salaries. Yet their public education is worse than Indiana's. Again, there is no correlation between teacher's pay and the quality of education. When teachers say it is all about the money, they are being waaaay overly simplistic and they come across as self-serving. Do I think that good teachers are underpaid? Absolutely! But at the same time, bad teachers are overpaid. Collectively, teachers don't want to remedy this, so the good ones have a hard time getting the public behind them.

Most of the other items in your post are things that I have heard for many years about parochial vs. public schools -- decades before anyone heard of charter schools or Mitch Daniels. Then, as now, it comes across as excuses -- with the addition of a political boogeyman excuse.

I'll also point out that then-President Obama gave national recognition for education excellence to a charter school administrator on the north side of Indianapolis. The charter school replaced a failed public school. President Obama apparently supported Governor Daniels' agenda.

 

[BoilerAndy]

I didn't really want this to turn into a huge public teacher rant. I never attended any public schools other than Purdue. My son and wife haven't either. I will keep my opinions of the public teacher union private but I would ask we focus this post on Daniels' impact on Purdue.

It's all about giving credit where it's due. Here's an unbiased opinion of where Purdue now stands:
http://www.theindychannel.com/homep...d-best-university-in-indiana-by-time-magazine

 

[ghostoffatjack]

FWIW, 1) the merit pay proposals were always tied to student performance on state mandated tests so the question was who would teach those lower performing students at the risk of their salary 2) overall low teacher salaries compared to neighboring states of Michigan, Illinois and Ohio contributed to teachers leaving the profession in Indiana and 3) Charter Schools for the most part A) attract the high average to top students from public schools, B) expel their discipline and non-performing students back to public schools C) for the most part don't accept the SPED, ESL and physically challenged students due to not having the facilities to accommodate them, D) did not have to repay their seed money startup loans...millions and E) employ many foreign teachers without valid State Licenses .

That was Daniels education legacy as Governor!

Everything in your response tells me that the problem is not teacher's salary. I have lived in Michigan and Illinois, which you correctly state pays higher salaries. Yet their public education is worse than Indiana's. Again, there is no correlation between teacher's pay and the quality of education. When teachers say it is all about the money, they are being waaaay overly simplistic and they come across as self-serving. Do I think that good teachers are underpaid? Absolutely! But at the same time, bad teachers are overpaid. Collectively, teachers don't want to remedy this, so the good ones have a hard time getting the public behind them.

Most of the other items in your post are things that I have heard for many years about parochial vs. public schools -- decades before anyone heard of charter schools or Mitch Daniels. Then, as now, it comes across as excuses -- with the addition of a political boogeyman excuse.

I'll also point out that then-President Obama gave national recognition for education excellence to a charter school administrator on the north side of Indianapolis. The charter school replaced a failed public school. President Obama apparently supported Governor Daniels' agenda.

If you don't believe teacher salary is an issue you must not have any clue about the teacher shortage ongoing in Indiana. You would also be shocked by the number in the classroom not instructing in their licensed area and the continuing low numbers of students in education at Indiana's universities and colleges...there is a teacher shortage in Indiana and salary is the #1 issue of why! STEM teachers in Indiana are disappearing in record numbers to other states mentioned or business FOR THE MONEY!

BS on your defense of his record of Charter Schools in Indiana less you forget how the grades for Charter Schools were held up and changed to higher marks...but they got caught AND the individual responsible who moved had on to Florida, I believe, was fired from a similar position.

Unless you tell me that particular Charter School took ALL of the students from the failed public school you are comparing apples to oranges. All of the issues stated are still the way Charter Schools operate not just in Indiana but in most states. They operate under a different set of rules, don't follow all the Federal and even state laws AND the jury is still out if they are any better for the low performing public schools.

You are in denial of the facts on Charter Schools and Daniels as the Governor of Indiana!

 

[Indy_Rider]

I remember a teacher upset when Mitch became president and I asked then what he did to public education and never got an answer? I really don't know and would like to know...

I thought it was a great hire, but would like to hear how he ruined education in the posters opinion

Teachers became accountable and just like all of us in the real world, performance and results became important. I've got lots of family members who are teachers, they bitch and moan but the truth is, they don't know of a better way of doing it as they all hate the seniority based system where older teachers are just collecting a pay check and not caring.

 

[TopSecretBoiler]

I remember a teacher upset when Mitch became president and I asked then what he did to public education and never got an answer? I really don't know and would like to know...

I thought it was a great hire, but would like to hear how he ruined education in the posters opinion

He cut education funding during the bank crisis in order to balance the state budget. Teachers are whiners. They get guaranteed raises in Fairfax, VA. The busted the budget and tried to put a meal tax in. It failed. Now I'm sure they will probably try to raise my personal property taxes. Just no accountability to the tax payer in any way. Bad test scores? Doesn't matter. Bad teacher? Doesn't matter. Blew the budget? Cut the arts. There's absolutely no self reflection in that industry. Endless money pit with mediocre results.
https://www.fcps.edu/sites/default/files/media/pdf/FY17-260-day-teacher_1.pdf

 

[32zone]

My wife is a public school teacher on the south side of Indy - MSDPT. She has absolutely zero issue with Daniels. She loves the TAP program that actually requires teachers to do their job...and get financially rewarded if they do. Her school has embraced the TAP program and has won national awards for their successes. She said one of the best parts of the program was that it weeded out the teachers that didn't care or weren't good at their profession. She gets regular bonuses for her evaluations. Several thousand $'s about every 6 months...on top of her base pay.

And before anyone says only teachers at affluent school districts will score well - her school is about 3/4 refugees from Burma. Those kids come to this country without a dime and with no knowledge of the English language. I can't think of a more challenging teacher environment than that yet she and the rest of the teachers and students are thriving.

In her words - the only people upset with Daniels are teachers who have drank the ISTA kool-aid.

 

[tjreese]

Everything in your response tells me that the problem is not teacher's salary. I have lived in Michigan and Illinois, which you correctly state pays higher salaries. Yet their public education is worse than Indiana's. Again, there is no correlation between teacher's pay and the quality of education. When teachers say it is all about the money, they are being waaaay overly simplistic and they come across as self-serving. Do I think that good teachers are underpaid? Absolutely! But at the same time, bad teachers are overpaid. Collectively, teachers don't want to remedy this, so the good ones have a hard time getting the public behind them.

Most of the other items in your post are things that I have heard for many years about parochial vs. public schools -- decades before anyone heard of charter schools or Mitch Daniels. Then, as now, it comes across as excuses -- with the addition of a political boogeyman excuse.

I'll also point out that then-President Obama gave national recognition for education excellence to a charter school administrator on the north side of Indianapolis. The charter school replaced a failed public school. President Obama apparently supported Governor Daniels' agenda.

There are so many posts with points I have of interest, but it tires me thinking about doing them justice. Maybe very concisely later. FWIW, if you use the governent data on k-12 funding and how that slope is with the NAEP (National Assessment of Educational Progress) slope you can find no meaningful relationship between the two. I personally believe there "could" be, but the noise or "weighted" results from poor teachers masks the effect of good teachers is the only way I can reconcile the findings...that and less precise measurement differentation. I do not know this and am only trying to give a reason why more money doesn't appear to affect academic gains...same with classroom size. Back in the 80s I discussed classroom size with Charlie HIcks and his response was that "data" did not show any difference...even though we all think it should and so I tried to offer a reason on "why" that could exist. A poor teacher will do a poor job with 15 or 30 kids and a good teacher will do a good job with 15 or 30 kids. Teh good teacher might show improvement with smaller classrooms, but the poor teacher makes so little impact it may not matter the classroom size. Charlie was brilliant...

http://www.hippensteelfuneralservice.com/obituaries/Charles-Hicks-3/#!/Obituary

 

[ghostoffatjack]

My wife is a public school teacher on the south side of Indy - MSDPT. She has absolutely zero issue with Daniels. She loves the TAP program that actually requires teachers to do their job...and get financially rewarded if they do. Her school has embraced the TAP program and has won national awards for their successes. She said one of the best parts of the program was that it weeded out the teachers that didn't care or weren't good at their profession. She gets regular bonuses for her evaluations. Several thousand $'s about every 6 months...on top of her base pay.

And before anyone says only teachers at affluent school districts will score well - her school is about 3/4 refugees from Burma. Those kids come to this country without a dime and with no knowledge of the English language. I can't think of a more challenging teacher environment than that yet she and the rest of the teachers and students are thriving.

In her words - the only people upset with Daniels are teachers who have drank the ISTA kool-aid.

Interesting who you give credit to for the TAP Program in Indiana since it was started in 1999 by the Milken Family Foundation and the University of Indianapolis. Most recent results show that over 90% of existing teachers have been retained in the TAP Program, nationwide, so much for all those bad teachers being erroneously spewed as facts in this thread.

You also mention her regular bonuses, which IS higher pay while no salary is cut for poor performance just no bonus awarded and one final note of fact...two Federal Grants under the Obama Administration have been granted to Indiana since 2010 for TAP so let's give credit where it is due!

 

[32zone]

Interesting who you give credit to for the TAP Program in Indiana since it was started in 1999 by the Milken Family Foundation and the University of Indianapolis. Most recent results show that over 90% of existing teachers have been retained in the TAP Program, nationwide, so much for all those bad teachers being erroneously spewed as facts in this thread.

You also mention her regular bonuses, which IS higher pay while no salary is cut for poor performance just no bonus awarded and one final note of fact...two Federal Grants under the Obama Administration have been granted to Indiana since 2010 for TAP so let's give credit where it is due!

Not sure I follow your reply - so you're OK with teacher accountability as long its a democrat who gets credit?

I don't care who gets credit. I was just pointing out that the Daniels hate by the teacher's union is misguided. And you kind of just proved that with your reply...indicating you're OK with teacher accountability. The teacher's union went off the reservation with their hatred of Mitch. Most people are ok with their tax $ following their student to the school of their choice - not being tied to a school just because of your address. Most people also realize there is no group that cries wolf more than teacher's unions.