Dallas
- Thread starter TOKenBoiler
- Start date
now what what? Hopefully the folks who did it are caught and prosecuted harshly. And on edit apparently they have been. Have no problem with the guy who was killed, and no problem with harsh harsh sentences (LWOP since I'm anti-DP) and throw them in a hole with bread and water for all I care if they were part of the plan.
There's no escalating trend or pattern of police being shot, in fact, IIRC, the numbers are down over recent years.
My only real concern other than thoughts for the police/civilians affected by this horrible act is that some folks will use this to argue that cops have to be trigger happy because black people are really trying to kill them.
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I'm not sure of the tone of the question.
Violence against police officers is completely unacceptable in a civilized society. Those responsible should be caught and prosecuted to the full extent of the law, which includes death in TX.
At the same time, this doesn't change anything in the police shootings of black civilians, most recently in Baton Rouge and St. Paul. Those are unacceptable too. It's high time for the police to stand up and call out when one of their own fails horribly and causes an unnecessary death.
It's not binary. It is possible for rational people to be pro cop and against cops carelessly killing (mostly) black men.
Cops are killing mostly black men. Black men are killing mostly black men. You need some Orwellian doublethink to conclude that the problem is the cops, not black men.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...olice-shootings-black-men-20160707-story.html
You are a piece of work, a piece of something, that's for sure.
Muslims kill people. Sorry, "moslems" kill people. Blacks kill people. I'm noticing a trend with you...
I will give you this: you are consistent. Whether it's throwing up Chicago gang violence statistics to whitewash any discussion of police misconduct, or the argument to leave Syrian refugees to drown. There is no limit to the random BS you will throw out in a weak attempt to justify your racism and fear.
That licensed gun owner shot in his car in MN equates to gang killings in Chicago in what way? His skin color? His haircut?
You need to be a complete moron or a blatant klansmen to think that bad or scared/unprepared cops aren't at least part of the problem.
I'm not certain how you read that article and thought it supported your argument. Whatever the level of black-on-black crime, it doesn't justify/excuse what happened to Alton Sterling or Philando Castile or others like them. I hope you would at least be able to agree that the image of white authority figures killing black men, justified or not, would strike a nerve with the black community given their history in America. "Move along people, there's nothing to see here," isn't the attitude that's going to bring any positive change.
He's a racist, that much is clear, so you are wasting your time engaging him directly on this.
You guys just can't wait distort my comments and pounce with the Hate card.
I didn't say Libyan refugees should be left to drown, I said they should be taken back where they came from after being "rescued". If this were done, they'd stop coming.
I didn't say there are no issues with police misconduct. But obviously the foremost problem is the culture of inner city black men and yes, the statistics overwhelmingly confirm this.
If we're talking about black-on-black crime, your comment might have been relevant. But, we're not. You injected the topic like it debunked the problems that led up to Dallas. It doesn't. They are two separate things.Do you have any thoughts to share on Alton Sterling, Philando Castile or the police shootings in Dallas? If so, please do.
Again, you distort what I have said and then challenged me to defend something that I did not say. Sneaky way for you to play the Hate card.
I did not "...injected the topic (black-on-black crime) like it debunked the problems that led up to Dallas." The issue of trigger happy racist white cops has a background. (1) The culture of violence among inner city black men and (2) the rabid bias of news reporting.
In Ferguson, a 6'4" 295# thug man who robbed a convenience store and assaulted the clerk was approached by a cop in a car. The thug attacked the cop, tried to take his gun away, then came at him again for a second attack when the cop shot him. Headlines across America: "White Cop shoots Unarmed Black Man".
poor misunderstood BGB. Always getting the Hate card played against you. Poor gentle soul.
Are you arguing that "trigger happy racist white cops" are the product of black-on-black violence and biased news reporting? That's all I'm getting from your response...which really does little to dispel the notion that you have a "problem with the coloreds."
I don't even have to distort your comments. There is literally no other way to interpret this statement:
"Cops are killing mostly black men. Black men are killing mostly black men. You need some Orwellian doublethink to conclude that the problem is the cops, not black men."
...other than racist.
You need to spend more time qualifying your statements to be clear, because when I read that, I summarily dismissed you as just an out-and-out bigot. If that's not who you are, and that's not the image you're trying to portray, you need to fix it because your written words belie that.
The gentleman killed in Minnesota wasn't an inner city black man, had no record, and wasn't doing anything illegal when he was shot four times and killed in front of his girlfriend and her four-year-old son. So no, I disagree with the foremost problem in all of these cases being as simple as you think.
There is a problem with violence in this country, and it is most notable in the black community specifically with young black males. This is not true of all black men.
There is a problem with police interactions with young black males in this country in that in many of these cases there is no effort by police to deescalate situations because of their assumption that the young black man is out to hurt them or not comply with their direction. This is not true of all police officers.
The foremost problem with these shootings is that there is some portion of police officers who approach situations with black men assuming the worst because they are dealing with a black man. That that judgment is made based solely on the color of the relative age, gender and color of the person's skin is the foremost problem.
The foremost problem? Let's quantify this. From my post above, 69 young black men were killed over the 4th holiday weekend in Chicago alone. Now we have 5 dead cops in Dallas. And 2 blacks shot by white cops in Minnesota and Baton Rouge.
69, 5, 2: What's the foremost problem? Don't black lives matter?
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Very selective reading. I said the foremost problem with these shootings. That 64 black men died over the fourth holiday (I question that statistic) in one city hundreds of miles away from these two shootings not justification for the actions of police, nor justification for retaliation against unrelated police.
Actually, the foremost problem is treating individual people as one collective group because of one or two shared traits. You're pro at it.
No, there weren't. There were 4 or 5 people killed and 66 shot in total from what I've seen. Do you have a source for identifying all of these victims as "black men"? Or did you simply assume it must be black men because...well, it's shootings in Chicago, so it must be black men...were they all shot by black men, too?
Oh, only 66 shot in Chicago. How about we tally up Detroit and LA and Philly and Houston and NYC and Wash DC as well? And we're talking one holiday weekend here. Are you in denial that this problem exists? And no rational person disputes that virtually all of them were shot by young black men. And frankly, gangs of young black men who know each other and their victims.
He was pointing out the fact that you equated 69 "killed" with the deaths last night, when in fact only 4 or 5 were killed. Your statistic was inaccurate, as numerous people suggested. Whether or not you purposefully inflated that number to try to support your point (which is largely irrelevant, honestly; even though black on black crime is a problem, it doesn't somehow excuse cops unnecessarily using deadly force), well, I have a guess.
Paragraph 1 - We have no idea what happened before the shoot. The Minnesota video is worthless.
Paragraph 2 - Violence has been a problem forever. Walking upright forever. I agree that there is a segment of black culture that glorifies violence and killing law enforcement.
Paragraph 3 - Complete speculation. I feel that you are repeating a talking point as opposed to an evidence driven analysis.
Paragraph 4 - Again, wild speculation that fits a media narrative above actual data.
I honestly have no idea why anyone is protesting on such flimsy pretexts. Obviously Baton Rouge was a good shoot.
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That image comes from AEI, not a liberal group who hates cops, AEI. Someone tell me again about how there is a war on cops or the "100" cops who were killed in the last year.
Things with a higher per capita death rate: Garbage collector, Bartender, Taxi Driver, Fisherman, Recycling wholesaler (yeah who knew?).
Doesn't make these deaths from a lone idiot any less tragic, but it's at its lowest levels more or less since the 1800s.
Meanwhile over 1100 people were killed by police in 2015, half were AA. 560 versus whatever percentage of around 50 police deaths were by black men (let's go with 30).
560 v. 30. I realize the vast majority of those shootings were probably "good shots" let's say 90 percent of them, that still leaves 50+ questionable to bad shootings. Some get media attention some don't.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/31/the-counted-police-killings-2015-young-black-men
And according to the Guardian, a good chunk of those black folks killed...were unarmed.
it's at this point where I start to believe that you are just playing a role.
The evidence that we know to be true.
Man pointing gun at people per 911.
Police arrive on scene and see a person matching description.
Police approach. We don't what happened before the Taser. But there is a force escalation present. Verbal can be heard. Then, Taser.
Suspect unresponsive to Taser. Hands on.
Suspect resisting arrest and verbal commands.
Hands on.
Firearm discovered.
Suspect still resisting. Right arm goes for right side of body.
Are LE supposed to let him get into his pocket?
Baton Rogue man couldn't go back to jail. He would never get out. This was the 3rd incident involving an illegally possessed firearm.
Welcome to being an LEO.
By all means, an investigation will occurr. Just like every other discharge of a firearm by LEO.
I think this one is open and shut. But, that doesn't fit the hands up don't shoot narrative.
I can listen to the Minnesota cop's voice and know he wasn't deescalating anything. If the driver was going to go for his firearm, why did he tell the cop he had it in the first place? Dude was legal, no record at all. That cop self fulfilled a prophecy, in my opinion. I don't know what to think about Baton Rouge, but the two videos I've seen looked like they had him under control without need of firearms. They probably could've controlled him better with both hands instead of one each on a firearm, but we will never know...
You should've paid attention to my arguments during Ferguson if you think I just buy media narratives.
No offense, but now you are a voice intent expert witness?
If the driver was going to go for his firearm, why did he tell the cop he had it in the first place?
Is there any proof of this other than the girlfriend?
That cop self fulfilled a prophecy, in my opinion.
Yikes. I don't even know what to say....
Not an expert, just trained and educated in physiological response to stress, specifically stress in life threatening situations and how it affects people cognitively, emotionally, and physically. His voice was indicative of an extreme reaction to stress that, at first telling, didn't appear to be warranted for a traffic stop.
How do we know he told the cop he had a weapon? How else did the cop know? The cop said, "I told him not to go for it." Yet it was apparently concealed. Unless he was told, then he probably wouldn't have known.
If what is reported is true, that the policeman said he thought the driver was the suspect in a robbery, THAT is what I'm referring to when I say he entered on a certain assumption that will probably turn out to be false given the victim's prior record (that is he didn't have one). If what qaz said was true about the radio call referring to a broad nose, well, that's pretty clearly a racial trait common among a lot of black men...
I will keep an open mind as I have in all these other stories. In the majority of the cases I have sided with the police. I can only think of four that I think the cops were wrong. I am open regarding Baton Rouge. Minnesota looks markedly worse.
Excuse me, but 64 were shot in Chicago over 4th weekend and 4 were fatal shootings and there is no mention of color but it is safe to conclude the vast majority were Black. When a number seems ridiculous it usually is says the long ago reporter for the City News Bureau of Chicago!
I share your opinion. The woman in Minnesota seemed remarkably cool and I expect that based on her demonstrated emotional state and her quick thinking in connecting to FB that she was telling the truth. Based on the officer's emotional state I suspect it is very possible he reacted in fear and shot and then realized what he had done. It is impossible to know how anyone will react To a possible fatal shooting. You can not replicate it in training.
Many, if not most, states with concealed carry laws require a person with a concealed weapon to announce it to a police officer if he/she is stopped. I would imagine that this is why he told the officer he had a weapon.
Many people with concealed carry permits carry their weapon in the glove box while traveling. If your registration is in the glove box it is incumbent upon you to declare you possess a legal CC permit and your gun is in the glove box. However, you are also advised to always follow the instructions of the police officer. The one question in my mind is whether the man was given an order by the police officer and disregarded it. In my mind that would not free the officer from some charge, but it could explain his panic and response.
Eh, the guy in BR was resisting arrest and known to be armed. To say police could have controlled him better with both their hands after tasing him failed is a huge reach. Look at the end of the day, have a police record, have a gun, wave/threaten people with it, resist arrest-sometimes these people nail their own coffin shut.
I think people trying to silo this into one issue are missing the point. I think you pointed it out - cops don't trust black men because there is a notion that black men are violent because there is heavy pockets of black men committing violent crime.
The fact of the matter is there is a whole range of topics within that and you just can't connect those dots so easily. For example, drugs in this country plays a big role in violence in this country. White people do drugs too and the sale of drugs by anyone perpetuates a lot of the violence that continues.
Prior to these specific events, you see many gun advocates, including the NRA stand up for conceal/carry permits and how we need more of those to help curtail mass shootings. Then someone who is a law abiding and what seemed to be "by the books" conceal/carry permitholder gets killed, yet the NRA is silent.
You had many people mocking protests about police shootings and the Black Lives Matter groups. And when these shootings occur, there's silence from these people which doesn't do anything to help things.
And on the other hand, you do have individuals that have made an effort to target police officers with violence in retaliation. You have many African-Americans who may not want anything to do with violence or causes of violence (i.e. drugs) stay silent around crime and do not want to work with police or become an advocate for police.
Overall, if you aren't going to agree there's a violent crime problem in this country, coupled with there are many factors and problems - from white politicians in a very white state that mock Black Lives Matter - to African-Americans living in Chicago that see or know things that do not speak up about it within their community, in their neighborhoods or churchs, or to authorities.
This isn't a problem that's going to get solved staking out these positions and blaming other sides.
