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Criteria for who should get minutes

So are you saying a coach is never wrong?

Hunter Sallis is starring for Wake Forest, yet couldn't find the floor at Gonzaga.

I think it's okay to admit that even coaches are fallible. That doesn't mean us fans know more than the coaches, but it also doesn't mean that fans are always wrong...
I mean the easy solution is, folks treat this like what it is, a "bar" where a bunch of fans are talking. None of it matters, and none of it is worth a whole lot of drama over. If you think something is wrong, then say so. But all of these "poke the bear" threads bring absolutely nothing.
 
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So are you saying a coach is never wrong?

Hunter Sallis is starring for Wake Forest, yet couldn't find the floor at Gonzaga.

I think it's okay to admit that even coaches are fallible. That doesn't mean us fans know more than the coaches, but it also doesn't mean that fans are always wrong...
Nope. I’m saying a coach has considerable more information at his disposal and a wealth of experience in making those decisions.

I live in a world where it’s best to make an informed decision and then adjust if the outcome is different than expected. Sometimes those decisions are wrong and the uninformed turn out to be right. But that doesn’t mean my original decision wasn’t appropriate.
 
So are you saying a coach is never wrong?

Hunter Sallis is starring for Wake Forest, yet couldn't find the floor at Gonzaga.

I think it's okay to admit that even coaches are fallible. That doesn't mean us fans know more than the coaches, but it also doesn't mean that fans are always wrong...
I do NOT know anything about Hunter Sallis, but there will be, and are players, that were at another school that were not a great match "at that time perhaps" for what the team needed, that another school provided. I don't know that it applies to Hunter, but does apply to a LOT of players. I don't think it is quite as common as years ago, due to the game creating less distinction in playing styles, but years ago players didn't up and leave like today either.

Coaches have been and will be in the future fallible. With that, coaches also have thought a bit more about a lot of variables going into the decisions they make, than fans. Better, more informed decisions, mean more right decisions than wrong, but wrong decisions have and could be made in the future. I'm unsure there are many decisions that are obviously correct for any game, any time, but that a coach understands that, and makes a decision in what he is willing to give up as to what he is NOT willing to give up. As an example Matt is unlikely to spread his D away from the goal or where baskets are made and therefore has had more skill than athletes since he doesn't press or trap unless desperate. He is not willing to give up better D inside the arc than outside the arc with hopes of turnovers. His base defense that is played almost all the time is man. He believes that is the best defense day in and day out that can be morphed to do what is needed. Some coaches will not only press, but may also show zone or matchup zone and in some of those cases the teams will man up on whoever they have in their area as the shot clock winds down. Naturally, not a lot of distinction between a matchup and man as the shot clock goes down. Many variables can lead to different players being more successful at one place than another outside of a coach maybe not understanding how good a kid could be.
 
Nope. I’m saying a coach has considerable more information at his disposal and a wealth of experience in making those decisions.

I live in a world where it’s best to make an informed decision and then adjust if the outcome is different than expected. Sometimes those decisions are wrong and the uninformed turn out to be right. But that doesn’t mean my original decision wasn’t appropriate.
What is also missed many times is that if a coach does something that a fan is aware and that doesn't work out, that does NOT imply that a fans suggestion of something different would be better. It isn't just a right or wrong decision, but has many scenarios between right and wrong based upon what you are willing to give up. I really think that is missed by a lot. Coaches are not fallible, but are aware of many more variables than a fan, but more knowledge doesn't doesn't always mean the best decision, but does mean probably much better decisions than a random fan's thoughts.
 
There are so many programs that will allow Colvin to mature while playing. It just won’t happen here. Can’t keep everyone happy but as a coach you have to see through their weaknesses and know their strengths, then judge the ceiling . Right now I don’t see what Loyer brings to the table, I understand Colvin is not ready but will end up as the better player.
 
What is also missed many times is that if a coach does something that a fan is aware and that doesn't work out, that does NOT imply that a fans suggestion of something different would be better. It isn't just a right or wrong decision, but has many scenarios between right and wrong based upon what you are willing to give up. I really think that is missed by a lot. Coaches are not fallible, but are aware of many more variables than a fan, but more knowledge doesn't doesn't always mean the best decision, but does mean probably much better decisions than a random fan's thoughts.
Absolutely. We are talking about 18-24 year old young men being asked to execute a plan devised by someone else. Hell, I've got a very strong team of professionals and we make decisions every day that sometimes work and sometimes don't.

And to those saying Painter doesn't adjust, that couldn't be more wrong. In the specific case it seems everyone is currently hung up on, Fletch's minutes are down this year and he hasn't played more than 26 minutes in the last 5 games. During the same stretch last year, he averaged 32.2 minutes and played 34+ minutes 4 times in 6 games. On the flip side, there's only been one game all year where Heide played more than the 19 minutes he's played each of the past 2 games.
 
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There are so many programs that will allow Colvin to mature while playing. It just won’t happen here. Can’t keep everyone happy but as a coach you have to see through their weaknesses and know their strengths, then judge the ceiling . Right now I don’t see what Loyer brings to the table, I understand Colvin is not ready but will end up as the better player.
I hope and believe he will end up as the better player. But I'm personally focused on our coaching staff doing everything they can to win THIS YEAR. And I believe Loyer and Heide give us the best chance to do that.

I'll add that allowing a player to mature while playing is far from a given (look at the roller coaster UK is this year and that's with dude's considerably more talented than Colvin). And for every Jaden Ivey that does mature (tho that St Peter's game can certainly make you question how much), you have a Ronnie Johnson, which had people wanting to fire our head coach.
 
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Absolutely. We are talking about 18-24 year old young men being asked to execute a plan devised by someone else. Hell, I've got a very strong team of professionals and we make decisions every day that sometimes work and sometimes don't.

And to those saying Painter doesn't adjust, that couldn't be more wrong. In the specific case it seems everyone is currently hung up on, Fletch's minutes are down this year and he hasn't played more than 26 minutes in the last 5 games. During the same stretch last year, he averaged 32.2 minutes and played 34+ minutes 4 times in 6 games. On the flip side, there's only been one game all year where Heide played more than the 19 minutes he's played each of the past 2 games.
When fans say Matt doesn't adjust, that just isn't true. However, something large...a more major change that is obvious is what they want. It is nothing new, fans at all levels have their idea or fix that is needed and naturally some more than others support their contentions better.
 
Nope. I’m saying a coach has considerable more information at his disposal and a wealth of experience in making those decisions.

I live in a world where it’s best to make an informed decision and then adjust if the outcome is different than expected. Sometimes those decisions are wrong and the uninformed turn out to be right. But that doesn’t mean my original decision wasn’t appropriate.
I hear you. At the same time, I don't think all fans are entirely "uninformed." Most fans? Probably so. But all fans? No, I think there ARE some fans who are more informed than others, but your point remains and I appreciate your perspective and points.
 
Somebody in Painter’s circle follows these boards because he explained the origins of the “Tacos” nickname to someone while he was mic’d up during the alumni game.
 
I do NOT know anything about Hunter Sallis, but there will be, and are players, that were at another school that were not a great match "at that time perhaps" for what the team needed, that another school provided. I don't know that it applies to Hunter, but does apply to a LOT of players. I don't think it is quite as common as years ago, due to the game creating less distinction in playing styles, but years ago players didn't up and leave like today either.

Coaches have been and will be in the future fallible. With that, coaches also have thought a bit more about a lot of variables going into the decisions they make, than fans. Better, more informed decisions, mean more right decisions than wrong, but wrong decisions have and could be made in the future. I'm unsure there are many decisions that are obviously correct for any game, any time, but that a coach understands that, and makes a decision in what he is willing to give up as to what he is NOT willing to give up. As an example Matt is unlikely to spread his D away from the goal or where baskets are made and therefore has had more skill than athletes since he doesn't press or trap unless desperate. He is not willing to give up better D inside the arc than outside the arc with hopes of turnovers. His base defense that is played almost all the time is man. He believes that is the best defense day in and day out that can be morphed to do what is needed. Some coaches will not only press, but may also show zone or matchup zone and in some of those cases the teams will man up on whoever they have in their area as the shot clock winds down. Naturally, not a lot of distinction between a matchup and man as the shot clock goes down. Many variables can lead to different players being more successful at one place than another outside of a coach maybe not understanding how good a kid could be.
 
There are so many programs that will allow Colvin to mature while playing. It just won’t happen here. Can’t keep everyone happy but as a coach you have to see through their weaknesses and know their strengths, then judge the ceiling . Right now I don’t see what Loyer brings to the table, I understand Colvin is not ready but will end up as the better player.
All you have to do is to look at all the portal impact players that came from lower tiered schools to see that experience and coaching at a another school allows some players the opportunity to get better and this includes players that were NOT initially good enough to land at a better program. Just look at Domask and Lance from SIU. Generally, we see guards that have experience that become main players elsewhere and NOW can play with the big boys. We also see this in the first round games where a team now has seniors and compete with higher seeds. Those programs wouldn't compete perhaps the previous three years and such. but years later have a team that can be pretty good.

A better program may not have desire to allow players to experiment and grow through errors on the court because they are not that short on talent to run a lab experiment during the season, but that same player elsewhere could get the minutes on the court to develop
 
Somebody in Painter’s circle follows these boards because he explained the origins of the “Tacos” nickname to someone while he was mic’d up during the alumni game.
It is hard to say if someone in his circle or in a circle of a player ...or the media. I have written a few things that ended up very close to what I wrote inside a media outlet, but I don't think Matt or the staff look for ideas inside a forum
 
TJ: I love reading your posts; many are probably over my head as your analysis is often quite detailed. But I must disagree with your statement that are defense is stronger inside the arc. I hate the drop coverage played by Edey and others ALL THE TIME. Yes it keeps Edey out of foul trouble some, but at the expense of easy buckets. Edey has averaged 1.9 fouls per game to date. I would like to see him come out on that high pick and roll, especially at the end of games when we really need a stop, and he has 1 or 2 fouls. Furst is great at doubling that high ball screen; would like to see him even see him stay with it a second or two longer at times. And when Edey is dropping like that and retreating, it doesn't long like any man to man defense I have seen. Just my 2 cents. Thanks for posting. Keep them coming.
 
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It is hard to say if someone in his circle or in a circle of a player ...or the media. I have written a few things that ended up very close to what I wrote inside a media outlet, but I don't think Matt or the staff look for ideas inside a forum
Oh, I’m sure they’re not looking for ideas but it wouldn’t surprise me if they keep a finger on the pulse of what people are talking about for potential questions from media or on the call-in show.
 
TJ: I love reading your posts; many are probably over my head as your analysis is often quite detailed. But I must disagree with your statement that are defense is stronger inside the arc. I hate the drop coverage played by Edey and others ALL THE TIME. Yes it keeps Edey out of foul trouble some, but at the expense of easy buckets. Edey has averaged 1.9 fouls per game to date. I would like to see him come out on that high pick and roll, especially at the end of games when we really need a stop, and he has 1 or 2 fouls. Furst is great at doubling that high ball screen; would like to see him even see him stay with it a second or two longer at times. And when Edey is dropping like that and retreating, it doesn't long like any man to man defense I have seen. Just my 2 cents. Thanks for posting. Keep them coming.
Thank you, I appreciate the kind words. I do end up with a bit more verbiage in trying to support my thoughts. First, I do not know which you reference, but believe I may not have been clear in what I typed. That said, I'm going to go off of what you wrote and see if I can express myself a bit clearer and if you still disagree...no problem as I'm sure I am not correct in all I write for all situations.

I'm guessing that my typing was how Matt and many other coaches view defense in general relative to the arc. Matt likes to have his D defending the area where most baskets are made and so we do NOT see presses and traps extended all over the court (Gene and Knight two influences to Matt did the same thing). Rather than trying to get turnovers, Matt would rather protect the basket more.

Some coaches compromise that and try to do both and others are just opposite of Matt. I believe this is the area that may not have been as clear when I threw out inside the arc and outside the arc. I should have stated more accurately that Matt doesn't extend his D out where baskets are less likely to be made whereas the reference, and a poor one by me, was using the arc instead.

Matt holds a position as do some other coaches that protecting the rim and defending the 3 ball are more important than long 2s with the idea that long 2s are less efficient. With that approach the in-between game is a spot that certain players can exploit very effectively since that area is NOT defended well. Braden does this well this year. With that ,depending on the players involved AND time and score Matt may play more of a drop as you say. FWIW, I do think Zach can challenge "MORE" in drop than he does and not pick up fouls. When Zach is in the drop he is essentially playing a one man zone and still becoming a bit of an obstacle at the rim and play across the lane. What happens some is that Zach is very vulnerable to a bounce pass inside the lane, much more than a lob. This is an attempt to work with Zach's height knowing his speed although better this year, is not Caleb speed as you stated.

I do think Zach can be more active in drop and challenge a bit more. There are times that Zach helping defend the high ball screen, but that is a function of the 5 man he is defending primarily . At the end of the game...especially where a single basket can make a difference you HAVE to defend out farther on EVERYONE and no doubt Matt will use Caleb "IF" he has a timeout to get Zach back in on offense.

Again depending on the players Caleb could hedge longer and drive the ball handler out farther. If that were to happen and the original player was a threat to shoot ...Caleb can't leave him for fear of that shot. While that happens their 5 man dives to the basket and is left with the original guard (Braden, maybe Lance) now picking up the 5 man down low with quite a disadvantage in height.

Anytime a team switches or gets in a position where it has to switch, the offense NOW has players the opposing coaches didn't want in that scenario. Ideally you never switch and have the people you want on the people you want, but switching is to keep quick coverage and to try to contain the drive. Ideally Zach never requires a player to double with him or dig at the ball on the 5 man that Zach is defending and thereby keeping a defender on ALL opposition players without increasing rotation problems. This is why you see teams trying to go to position less players where they can pressure and switch without issue, but you also lose the offense of Zach a dominant offensive player down low, but not able to defend as well in space. A match up zone attempts to put people into areas tehy can defend the best...just as switching does. Both have advantages and both have disadvantages since a Match-up is basically man. It is much more common than most realize for a coach to NOT defend all five players whether high school or college. Matt started doing the one man zone with AJ and particularly against IU when they had Yogi. Not long after Crean tried showing zone and going man as the shot clock was winding down and so that isn't new either.

What you actually wrote I find a LOT of agreement under the right scenario and hope I cleared out my poor use of the arc in trying to say Matt wanting to protect the basket rather than extend the D all over the court.
 
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