Carmody to ND.....

[olafmetal]

a possible line up in 2018 is:
Haarms/Taylor
Ewing
Wheeler
Eastern
Edwards
With Cline and Sasha that is a workable 8 man rotation although we obviously want some additional players for depth , development and contingency.. There is a lot of unknowns there but it's definitely among the most, if not the most athletic line ups Painter has been able to put on the floor. I can't say for sure where those players will be as far as skill, chemistry and production but you can't say that about any players for sure. Plenty of one and dones have mediocre college careers and get drafted on potential. It's hardly unrealistic to be happy about a class that has 3 potential starters with improved athleticism.

Edit: also if Wheeler has the skills to play the 3 and there are solid/better options at the 4, there is no way Carmody would be beating out a 6'8" athletic freak.

 

[WabashRiver]

The only future NBA player on the Butler team that was leading Uconn at halftime of the national championship game in 2011 was senior Shelvin Mack, a marginal talent journeyman with half a years worth of starts across 6 NBA seasons. I didn't see any NBA talent on the Saint Mary's team that was only down 3 to #2 seed Arizona with 4 minutes left in the round of 32 last year. Or the Mercer team with 5 senior starters that beat #2 seed Duke in the 1st round a few years ago. Perception is talent wins championships. Reality is experience is more important. Purdue has both this year.

 

[Chuchumutha]

There is no way it is 20. Obviously they didn't like Haarms as much as Jackson or Williams but I bet they liked him as much as Beatty, Tillman, and Haase. I don't think his later offer is a reflection on how much they liked him, but more on the fact that he was relatively unknown. Same with Wheeler - he was a late bloomer and most big programs didn't offer him until around the time we did.

It seems like we were really in the hunt for 3 elite players last year - Eastern, Jackson and Williams. For those players, we were 1/3. We were not in the hunt for 20 elite "A" players.

Please see the attached link. You will see we offered at least 26 recruits (only went to one site so I may have missed some) 5 of which committed to us. Of the remaining 21, almost all were offered before Haarms, Sasha, etc. You may say just because we offered doesn't mean we were "in the hunt" but I consider an official offer as a serious showing of interest by our staff. Painter did a nice job of salvaging a good class late in the process but he needs to land a greater percentage of his primary targets for 2018. Carmody was one of those.

http://purdue.247sports.com/Season/2017-Basketball/Offers

 

[Wolegib]

ok, looking at the line-up above, where would Carmody fit in? and we could be seeing a lot of that line-up for 2019 as well especially at guard.

I could see Carmody and other 2018 saying, they already have a decent line-up and looking elsewhere for a chance to play immediately.

Having a talented line-up is good news, but also bad news to attract more talented players.

 

[Heller]

You can look at the class of 2014 positively or negatively. Haas and Edwards sought to enter the draft, but both were told to go back to school because, you're not NBA material. Neither PJ or Mathias are close to NBA material. Cline isn't getting any looks. Simply stated, we've got a bunch of players who are still here, because they are not good enough to play at the next level.

Many people here claim that Edwards and has will surely be drafted next year. There were people out of UW and Maryland who said the exact same thing about their star players. the reality is their players weren't NBA material either.

and a current look at our team, I don't see anybody on it who is or will be an NBA player. The closest would be eastern if he becomes a PG. the NBA doesn't need or want a 6'6 SF, and has plenty of quick combo shooting guards.

and admittedly that effects recruiting. A guy like Carmody who still has NBA dreams doesn't want to come to a school where he will be at most a 6th man for the next 2-3 years. That would be the same for all of the guards Painter is currently recruiting. outside of Langford, none of them are great enough to be one and done players. And none of them are probably great enough to be able to unseat Edwards or Eastern to earn a starting role. At best, they would be a platoon player and play 20-25 minutes. And that's a hard sell for any coach to go and recruit a top 150 player and tell them they won't start for another 2-3 years. And I doubt any elite guard wants to come here and play SF just because they are taller than 6'5.

Purdue's good recruiting is its worst enemy. We have good players, but not elite players. unlike UK, Painter was not able to tell/sell JJJ that he would be an immediate starter and replace Biggie. I imagine that was part of his sales pitch, but biggie's late announcement really hurt our recruiting opportunity for JJJ. the same could be said about Bowen. he didn't see immediate starting time at SF on Purdue's roster. And on offense, he would have been the #3 or #4 scoring option at best.

Ask yourself the question, If Bowen came to Purdue, would he start? probably not. Would he get more than 20 mins playing time a game? probably not. and o n the pecking order of shooting /scoring, where would he be? I'd say at best he'd be after Edwards, Mathias, and Edwards. and maybe Haas. many guys could handle this. But most top 50 players would not.

and i' m sorry, nobody ever believes the story al l positions are open, and you just need to beat out the player in camp. Eastern is far better than PJ, but as has been said many times by people in the know. PJ WILL be the starter. if I was a top 50 rivals player, I wouldn't want to go to a team where I'd sit on the bench for my first 2 years.

that's the good and bad of having good , but not elite players. Elite players look for holes and to immediately become a star or at least play for Duke or UK and use that as an excuse for not starting. if an elite player came to Purdue and didn't become a star his freshman year, he'd move on to someplace where he would be - just ask Kyle Macy.

Carmody is a good solid player but he isn't anywhere close to a NBA lock and Brey doesn't have the rep of getting kids to the NBA. Just ask Scott Martin.

 

[PurdueBtfu2]

This'll be the 3rd straight year Purdue is a legit championship contender using their 4 year plan.

After several recent tournament losses, I have heard an increasing number of fans proclaim that Purdue simply lacks the elite athletes to make a deep tournament run and reach a Final Four. Let alone win a national title.

It was a debate if Purdue would even win the Big Ten.

 

[cprh9u]

I would define a good class as a class with a potential All B1G player (Eastern) and two potential really solid starters (Haarms and Wheeler) and a great shooter (SS). I never said this was an elite class. But I do think it is a really good signing class that will significantly exceed the class rankings. My main point is that people on this board were thinking we would have a horrible class after we didn't land Jackson, Tillman, etc. and that did not turn out to be the case.

BTW, I am not in the know as much as others on this board, but word out of spring practice is that the program feels like they got a major steal in Haarms.

I don't think it is a horrible class, I'd say fairly average with a top 75 guy and a lot of question marks/potential but on paper right now, it is not a "really good class". Hopefully you are right and the experts are wrong... it's certainly happened before.

 

[BoiledSteel]

I don't think it is a horrible class, I'd say fairly average with a top 75 guy and a lot of question marks/potential but on paper right now, it is not a "really good class". Hopefully you are right and the experts are wrong... it's certainly happened before.

This is one of the rare times you and I agree. Painter has shown to have a good ability to develop players so I will give him the benefit of the doubt on this class and how it turns out in a couple years.

As to the last line on the 'experts'... they are more often wrong than right it seems.

Now the whole thing about not getting certain players because the expectation on here by some that we should be able to walk in to just about any player's house, throw and offer and they sign right away is what gets me. Recruiting is no longer in that kind of a vacuum and kids will go to a school for a myriad of reasons. Some of those reasons are probably far more simpler than some try to over analyze.

 

[BoiledSteel]

It was a debate if Purdue would even win the Big Ten.

And look how that turned out last year.

Part of the problem for me with the NCAA's is how they are single elimination. I've always hated that and thought that once you reach say the sweet 16 you do a 3 game series. Many other sports have that and sure it will eliminate the 'Cinderella' type teams potentially, but I think is a better format than what we have now in my opinion.

 

[Wolegib]

Ok, I'm not sad we lost out on Carmody. I believe our #1 recruiting priority in the 2018 class should be a SF, with a rim protector being our second priority. And I don't want a 6'5 /6'6 guard being transformed into a SF. I want a player who is a true wing. I want a Vince Edwards or Wheeler type of player. I want a Scottie Pippin, not a Rick Mount. I want a guy who could slide between Sf and PF, not a guy who would slide between SF and Sg. I want a guy who is tall enough and strong enough and quick enough to be able to stop other perimeter forwards from being able to take 3 point shots. Mich and Wisconsin and Kansas and Louisville all have forwards that can hit the three. And I want somebody who can defend against that from happening. Our perimeter defense against big men shooting the three has been lacking. And Carmody was not that player. Carmody is a nice and tall SG. he would have made a great addition. but, I want somebody taller, who is skilled at playing forward. I want somebody to replace V Edwards, not Matias.

 

[NVBoilerFan]

I want a unicorn.

 

[ChoiceBeef]

I want a unicorn.

 

[BoilerBiker]

And look how that turned out last year.

Part of the problem for me with the NCAA's is how they are single elimination. I've always hated that and thought that once you reach say the sweet 16 you do a 3 game series. Many other sports have that and sure it will eliminate the 'Cinderella' type teams potentially, but I think is a better format than what we have now in my opinion.

wow that would be a lot more games to enjoy! baseball can do it but is that manageable for basketball?

in the pros with playoffs having a series format rather than single elimination, the best team going in typically does not win.
since the mid 90s, the best regular season teams win the championship this % of the time:
45% nba
24% nhl
23% mlb

 

[BoilerDaddy]

ok, looking at the line-up above, where would Carmody fit in? and we could be seeing a lot of that line-up for 2019 as well especially at guard.

I could see Carmody and other 2018 saying, they already have a decent line-up and looking elsewhere for a chance to play immediately.

Having a talented line-up is good news, but also bad news to attract more talented players.

With PJ and Dakota moving on, there will be lots of opportunity for newcomers to earn playing time at the guard positions next season.

 

[Wolegib]

With PJ and Dakota moving on, there will be lots of opportunity for newcomers to earn playing time at the guard positions next season.

that's where my question lies. Sure, there will be playing time available when PJ and Dakota leave. but after the leave, I expect C Edwards to grab 25-30 minutes per game. I expect Eastern to grab 20+ minutes a game I expect Cline to grab 15-20 minutes a game. That leaves 15-20 minutes left for an incoming freshmen. and a chance to start when C Edwards leaves in 2 years. the reality is Edwards and Eastern are going to be around for awhile. Neither is that great that they will leave early.

I'm just not sure how many talented guard prospects would want to join a team knowing they will have to ease into a starting role in 2-3 years. and unless your name is Langford, it's going to hard to beat out Eastern and Edwards.

unless Painter goes with a 3 guard offense.

 

[Heller]

that's where my question lies. Sure, there will be playing time available when PJ and Dakota leave. but after the leave, I expect C Edwards to grab 25-30 minutes per game. I expect Eastern to grab 20+ minutes a game I expect Cline to grab 15-20 minutes a game. That leaves 15-20 minutes left for an incoming freshmen. and a chance to start when C Edwards leaves in 2 years. the reality is Edwards and Eastern are going to be around for awhile. Neither is that great that they will leave early.

I'm just not sure how many talented guard prospects would want to join a team knowing they will have to ease into a starting role in 2-3 years. and unless your name is Langford, it's going to hard to beat out Eastern and Edwards.

unless Painter goes with a 3 guard offense.

Carsen is going to play major minutes from now forward or Painter should be fired. They take the best they can find for USA basketball and I didn't see Clines name anywhere near that group.

 

[Dryfly88]

Carsen is going to play major minutes from now forward or Painter should be fired. They take the best they can find for USA basketball and I didn't see Clines name anywhere near that group.

I get your point, but Cline was/is too old for the U19 team that CE is on.

 

[Heller]

I get your point, but Cline was/is too old for the U19 team that CE is on.

Refresh my memory. When was Cline invited to any USA basketball tryout, ever.

 

[Dryfly88]

Refresh my memory. When was Cline invited to any USA basketball tryout, ever.

I think you missed the part where i said "I get your point". Nobody is going to argue that Cline is as good as CE. Simply pointed out that Cline couldn't be anywhere near "that" group because he is too old.

 

[Wolegib]

I think you missed the part where i said "I get your point". Nobody is going to argue that Cline is as good as CE. Simply pointed out that Cline couldn't be anywhere near "that" group because he is too old.

he was never anywhere near that group, regardless of his age.

 

[Dryfly88]

he was never anywhere near that group, regardless of his age.

Never mind, I'm not going to try to explain my point again.

 

[Wolegib]

Never mind, I'm not going to try to explain my point again.

we fully understood your point. Our point was that it wasn't worth bringing up. it was like saying Jon McKeeman didn't get an invite because he was too old.

 

[Dryfly88]

we fully understood your point. Our point was that it wasn't worth bringing up. it was like saying Jon McKeeman didn't get an invite because he was too old.

That's a fair comparison, well done.